Fred Phelps is dead

[aspen]

if you believe you have the 'right' to be rich, how can you legislate against people who want the right to be homosexual and not discriminated against? Especially since Jesus spoke out against the rich......

 

[KingJ]

Homosexuality just happens to be the sin of the times.

If people just ignore / believe the opposite of what you write, they will make it to heaven with flying colours.

if you believe you have the 'right' to be rich, how can you legislate against people who want the right to be homosexual and not discriminated against? Especially since Jesus spoke out against the rich......

Jesus spoke out against thinking adulteress thoughts too. Jesus was making a point. Moses and the Jews made a point too. They stoned homosexuals to death.

1. Can you grasp why the Jews did that to homosexuals and not the rich?
2. Do you know what point Jesus was trying to make?
3. Do you think Jesus came to abolish the law?

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Jesus also defined marriage as heterosexual.

Most Christians have never and will never protest against "gays."

Working hard and wanting to decide to how to use the money God blessed you with is hardly a sin.

For all the scripture that speaks of the evil of money, there are others that detail how you should use yours. So, who determines what is "rich" I am guessing the response here would be any fundie who has more than you.

 

[aspen]

well, i ve never met a fundie that has spoken out against the overconsumption of our country. i guess they are too busy condemning sins they are not tempted by......

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Define over consumption.

 

[River Jordan]

Jesus also defined marriage as heterosexual.

Yep, and he spoke out quite a bit against greed and the love of money too.

Most Christians have never and will never protest against "gays."

But over the last couple of decades, Christian organizations have spend billions of dollars and countless resources lobbying politicians, crafting legislation and ballot measures, and actively voting to deny gays some very basic civil rights (protection from discrimination in housing, employment, etc.).

Yet at the same time, may Christians also lobby and vote for policies that directly benefit the very wealthy, attend opulent mega-churches, and promote this "prosperity Gospel" thing.

Working hard and wanting to decide to how to use the money God blessed you with is hardly a sin.

Nobody said otherwise. But surely you don't deny that there's excessive greed going on in politics and the financial markets?

For all the scripture that speaks of the evil of money, there are others that detail how you should use yours. So, who determines what is "rich" I am guessing the response here would be any fundie who has more than you.

Greed isn't about how much money you have.

Jesus spoke out against thinking adulteress thoughts too. Jesus was making a point. Moses and the Jews made a point too. They stoned homosexuals to death.

1. Can you grasp why the Jews did that to homosexuals and not the rich?

They also stoned people for picking up sticks on the Sabbath.

 

[Wormwood]

We don't have to stay in the OT to determine how God views homosexuality. Lets not confuse it with eating shellfish or keeping the Sabbath. In fact, abstaining sexual immorality was one of the few requirements made by the early church for the acceptance of Gentiles. Pornea in this context certainly includes acts such as homosexuality.

So what is it that is actually being argued for here? Are you suggesting that because people are greedy and materialistic that we should just wink at homosexuality? Sexual sin is the most devious of sins and I think that point is made quite explicitly in Scripture. Moreover, I don't know that I have ever heard of anyone stand up in church to defend greed, drunkenness, abuse or adultery. THIS is the issue. Its not that Christians like to bash sins they don't struggle with, its that our culture is trying to argue that homosexuality is no sin at all. As a result, most of the mainline denominations are embracing homosexuality wholeheartedly.

So, lets not confuse the issues. Just because we all struggle with sin does not mean we should not denounce them...especially when the culture is arguing that the sin is natural and beautiful while those who stand against it are labeled as hateful bigots.

 

[River Jordan]

Are you suggesting that because people are greedy and materialistic that we should just wink at homosexuality?

Not at all. It's along the lines of what Rabbi Shmuley observed....judging by the constant religious attacks on gays, you'd think it was the only sin in the entire Bible.

Sexual sin is the most devious of sins and I think that point is made quite explicitly in Scripture.

It is? So a gay couple is committing a larger sin than someone committing genocide?

Moreover, I don't know that I have ever heard of anyone stand up in church to defend greed, drunkenness, abuse or adultery. THIS is the issue. Its not that Christians like to bash sins they don't struggle with, its that our culture is trying to argue that homosexuality is no sin at all. As a result, most of the mainline denominations are embracing homosexuality wholeheartedly.

I see lots of evidence that western (especially American) Christianity has fully embraced greed. Have you seen some of the mega-churches? Have you seen the ornate Catholic buildings and displays? Do you have any idea how much money the Vatican has? Have you heard of the prosperity gospel?

To paraphrase the Rabbi, judging by US Christians, you'd think that Jesus lauded the money changers as "job creators".

So, lets not confuse the issues. Just because we all struggle with sin does not mean we should not denounce them...especially when the culture is arguing that the sin is natural and beautiful while those who stand against it are labeled as hateful bigots.

The main thing I don't understand is the legal efforts by Christians to deny gays even the most basic of civil protections. Why is that treatment targeted just at gays? Why aren't there efforts to deny adulterers employment protections? Or gluttons? Or the greedy?

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Civil rights do not apply to lifestyle choices. So, are you suggesting that companies be required to meet a quota of gays?

Do not confuse the issue of not supporting special privilege with denying basic rights.

 

[Wormwood]

CJ,

I agree wholeheartedly with your post.

River Jordan,

Not at all. It's along the lines of what Rabbi Shmuley observed....judging by the constant religious attacks on gays, you'd think it was the only sin in the entire Bible.

What Christians are "attacking" gays? I've been going to church my entire life, have listened to probably around 10,000 sermons and I have yet to hear of an "attack" on gays (other than the brief news clips of Fred Phelps). I hear more about pornography, divorce and greed than I do homosexuality.

It is? So a gay couple is committing a larger sin than someone committing genocide?

I think you know what I mean. Of all the sins regularly denounced and spoken about in the NT and OT, sexual immorality and idolatry are the most heavily denounced. Paul says that sexual sin is so severe because a person sins against their own bodies and he lists it at the bottom of the depravity scale in Romans 1. Why this insistence to white-wash it?

I see lots of evidence that western (especially American) Christianity has fully embraced greed. Have you seen some of the mega-churches? Have you seen the ornate Catholic buildings and displays? Do you have any idea how much money the Vatican has? Have you heard of the prosperity gospel?

To paraphrase the Rabbi, judging by US Christians, you'd think that Jesus lauded the money changers as "job creators".

First, I would not be so quick to judge these supposed "mega churches." Many of the "mega churches" I am aware of do incredible amounts of charity, rebuild neighborhoods, and donate millions to the poor and oppressed. No one blinks an eye when a corporation builds a 50 million dollar building, but when a church does it to provide places of worship, counseling centers, classrooms and outreach centers for a group that has grown to 10s of thousands, its somehow all about greed.

I think Rabbi Shmuley should allow Jesus to sit in the seat of judgment for a while. Again, no one is excusing greed or materialism. One sin does not make another permissible. I denounce the health and wealth Gospel as much as I denounce the homosexual hermeneutic. Can we not reject both?

The main thing I don't understand is the legal efforts by Christians to deny gays even the most basic of civil protections. Why is that treatment targeted just at gays? Why aren't there efforts to deny adulterers employment protections? Or gluttons? Or the greedy?

This is sheer nonsense. No one is denying homosexuals civil protections. The issue we are facing today is whether or not homosexuals should receive various privileges based on their sexual orientation, not whether or not they should possess civil rights.

So what exactly is your argument? Should we not view homosexuality as a sin? Should homosexuals be embraced as clergy? Should we just be quiet on the issue since people are greedy or murder? What exactly is your point in this discussion?

 

[River Jordan]

Civil rights do not apply to lifestyle choices. So, are you suggesting that companies be required to meet a quota of gays?

Do not confuse the issue of not supporting special privilege with denying basic rights.

Don't be silly. I specifically described what I'm talking about. In many places, gays can be fired, denied loans, denied services, and otherwise discriminated against for no other reason than they're gay. Giving gays the same civil protections against discrimination as other "choices" (e.g. religion) is not "special privilege".

What Christians are "attacking" gays? I've been going to church my entire life, have listened to probably around 10,000 sermons and I have yet to hear of an "attack" on gays (other than the brief news clips of Fred Phelps). I hear more about pornography, divorce and greed than I do homosexuality.

Seriously? Who do you think is behind all the efforts to deny gays basic civil protections (the ones I described above)? Are you aware of the efforts of conservative Christian organizations to criminalize homosexuality in Africa and other countries?

Just because you are personally unaware of something doesn't mean it isn't happening.

I think you know what I mean. Of all the sins regularly denounced and spoken about in the NT and OT, sexual immorality and idolatry are the most heavily denounced. Paul says that sexual sin is so severe because a person sins against their own bodies and he lists it at the bottom of the depravity scale in Romans 1. Why this insistence to white-wash it?

So do you believe homosexuality is a worse sin than genocide?

First, I would not be so quick to judge these supposed "mega churches." Many of the "mega churches" I am aware of do incredible amounts of charity, rebuild neighborhoods, and donate millions to the poor and oppressed. No one blinks an eye when a corporation builds a 50 million dollar building, but when a church does it to provide places of worship, counseling centers, classrooms and outreach centers for a group that has grown to 10s of thousands, its somehow all about greed.

And "many" mega-churches get caught using funds to fund extravagant lifestyles for their pastors and staff.

I think Rabbi Shmuley should allow Jesus to sit in the seat of judgment for a while. Again, no one is excusing greed or materialism. One sin does not make another permissible. I denounce the health and wealth Gospel as much as I denounce the homosexual hermeneutic. Can we not reject both?

Sure, but you're missing the point. No one here is saying being gay isn't a sin. I'm just noting the discrepancy in effort and resources Christian groups expend on denouncing gays, versus what is spent on denouncing greed. And from my perspective, I see a lot of active embracing of greed among some Christians.

Which did Jesus speak more about....gays or love of money?

This is sheer nonsense. No one is denying homosexuals civil protections. The issue we are facing today is whether or not homosexuals should receive various privileges based on their sexual orientation, not whether or not they should possess civil rights.

You need to get out more. There are many states in the US where gays can be fired, denied loans, denied housing, denied services, etc. for being gay. Also, because of the efforts of Christian groups in Africa, there are now African countries where gays can be jailed and even executed for being gay.

So what exactly is your argument? Should we not view homosexuality as a sin? Should homosexuals be embraced as clergy? Should we just be quiet on the issue since people are greedy or murder? What exactly is your point in this discussion?

Consistency. Why such ridiculous, over-focus on gays among Christians? Why is there almost no organized effort among Christians to denounce greed, or pass public policies de-incentivizing greed? Why are Christian groups going to Africa and helping them craft anti-gay laws, but not any anti-greed laws? Why are Christian groups trying to get state laws passed that allows businesses to discriminate against gays? Why not allow them to discriminate against adulterers? Fornicators? Gluttons? The greedy?

It's exactly as the Rabbi said....you'd think being gay was the only sin in the Bible.

 

[Wormwood]

Seriously? Who do you think is behind all the efforts to deny gays basic civil protections (the ones I described above)? Are you aware of the efforts of conservative Christian organizations to criminalize homosexuality in Africa and other countries?

Just because you are personally unaware of something doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Yes, that article looked like a bunch of unconfirmed reports. I am sure that Rick Warren is adamantly advocating the death penalty for homosexual acts in Uganda. Sigh. Just because you can find an "unconfirmed report" on something on the internet does not mean there is widespread oppression against homosexuals in our culture. Its quite the opposite. Most news stories treat homosexuals as through they are an oppressed racial group. Id post the links, but I think you know better.

So do you believe homosexuality is a worse sin than genocide?

Are you saying that Christians should not stand against genocide because people tell lies? I think I was pretty clear in what I said. If you are trying to find an underlying meaning, I cant help you.

And "many" mega-churches get caught using funds to fund extravagant lifestyles for their pastors and staff.

Yes, these pastors are regularly pulverized by the media and Christian communities. What is your point again? There are just as many "Christian" groups with gay pastors and priests as there are extravagant pastors who use the Gospel as a means to manipulate people to get rich. Both are deplorable. Why are you defending either or citing one as a reason to ignore the other?

Which did Jesus speak more about....gays or love of money?

These arguments are so ridiculous. Its like saying we shouldn't denounce pornography or abortion because Jesus never addressed these issues. He also didn't talk about sex-trafficking or abusing heroine. Does that mean these should just be ignored and we should focus on greed? Jesus spoke on the love of money a great deal because this was and is a pressing temptation for the people of that age. None of the Jews Jesus was walking around with were excusing homosexuality. It was understood to be an abhorrent lifestyle. Jesus didn't spend a lot of time preaching to the choir.

You need to get out more. There are many states in the US where gays can be fired, denied loans, denied housing, denied services, etc. for being gay. Also, because of the efforts of Christian groups in Africa, there are now African countries where gays can be jailed and even executed for being gay.

I think you need to get out more. Last I heard they are having gay parades at Disneyland, movies like "Brokeback Mountain" and a host of others are glorifying the lifestyle and famous gay women and men make themselves known all the time and are praised for their life choices. Yes, Ellen DeGeneres, Elton John, and all the others are so oppressed after coming out about their sexual practices. Sigh. A hometown newspaper did an article of a guy who graduated from my HS back in the day, praising him because of his homosexual lifestyle. Moreover, most government institutions have "awareness" seminars where employees and employers are instructed to view homosexuals as one would a skin color and to say anything in opposition to their life choices is grounds for being fired (I know, I sat through one). Popular Christian authors such as Rob Bell and Brian McClaren support this deviant behavior and call Christians to embrace this lifestyle. Most of the mainline denominations have welcomed the lifestyle and embrace clergy who practice it. We arent talking about a few get-rich tv charlatans who are usually the butt of Christian and secular jokes. We are talking about huge segments of Christianity embracing this activity. Yes, you need to get out more.

In any event, you seem determined to treat this lifestyle that you claim to be sinful in God's eyes as in need of sympathy and protection. Am I missing something here? Lets say homosexuality falls right after genocide and witchcraft in severity (as if such a list exists), does that mean we should start a care group for dictators who kill their own people because we want to be compassionate? I have no idea where you are going with this. But I can tell you I am tired of Christians who stand for what is right being attacked as if they are some raving, hateful, homophobic group whereas the homosexual population are those who are in need of sanction and should be praised.

I am sure the prophets such as John the Baptist would take your advice. Harsh and judgmental Christians...sigh.

 

[River Jordan]

Yes, that article looked like a bunch of unconfirmed reports.

You didn't even read the article, did you? If you had, you would have seen...

"Among them is Joseph Okia, nephew of President Yoweri Museveni in Uganda, where proposed legislation would invoke the death penalty for "aggravated homosexuality."

"Definitely there is a link between conservative Christians in America and conservative Christian leaders in Uganda," Okia confirmed to the report's researchers. Okia spoke of "a close intellectual and mentoring relationship.""

So no, this isn't an "unconfirmed report"; it's the people in Africa who were working on the legislation saying "Oh yeah, we've definitely been working with US Christian groups on this".

Are you saying that Christians should not stand against genocide because people tell lies? I think I was pretty clear in what I said. If you are trying to find an underlying meaning, I cant help you.

You didn't answer the question. Do you think homosexuality is a worse sin than genocide?

Yes, these pastors are regularly pulverized by the media and Christian communities. What is your point again?

Only when it gets to absurd levels. But right now there are plenty of mega-church pastors who are quite wealthy, and pastors preaching the "prosperity gospel", and conservative Christian politicians who laud the uber-wealthy as "job creators" and specifically skew public policy in their favor.

So rather than the Christian community actively opposing the extreme greed in our culture, many facets of Christianity have embraced it. Why? And why is not a problem at least on par with homosexuality?

These arguments are so ridiculous. Its like saying we shouldn't denounce pornography or abortion because Jesus never addressed these issues.

You need to stop thinking in black/white terms, where the only two options are 1) devote massive resources to opposing homosexuality, or 2) ignore it entirely.

My point is, why is there such an extreme emphasis on the sin of homosexuality? It can't be because it's more prominent in our society, because greed is also is sin and is waaaaaaaaaaay more prominent in western culture, to the point where facets of Christianity actively embrace it.

I think you need to get out more. Last I heard they are having gay parades at Disneyland, movies like "Brokeback Mountain" and a host of others are glorifying the lifestyle and famous gay women and men make themselves known all the time and are praised for their life choices.

You're jumping subjects. I'm specifically talking about efforts to deny gays basic civil protections, e.g., employment protections, access to housing, access to lending, access to business services, etc.

You seem to be stuck (again) in black/white mode, where if gays aren't universally shunned, then it can't be that they face civil discrimination. You do understand that it's possible for gays to exist publicly (celebrities), but still encounter legal discrimination, don't you?

In any event, you seem determined to treat this lifestyle that you claim to be sinful in God's eyes as in need of sympathy and protection. Am I missing something here?

Yes, you're missing something huge. As Christians, aren't all God's children entitled to our sympathy and protection? If you don't think gays are, then what do you think should be done with them? Should we treat them differently than we treat everyone else?

Lets say homosexuality falls right after genocide and witchcraft in severity (as if such a list exists), does that mean we should start a care group for dictators who kill their own people because we want to be compassionate? I have no idea where you are going with this.

Well, earlier you said sexual sins were the most "devious", so apparently you think such a list exists. Maybe you could share it?

And are you arguing that we should treat gays the same way we treat genocidal dictators?

But I can tell you I am tired of Christians who stand for what is right being attacked as if they are some raving, hateful, homophobic group whereas the homosexual population are those who are in need of sanction and should be praised.

Apparently the point of the OP has been lost on you. By being so over-the-top hateful and aggressive towards gays (ridiculous rhetoric, denial of basic civil rights, pushing for "kill the gays" laws), and by singling it out among all other sins as somehow the most important, the Christian Right has created a bully-victim perception, and the public is siding with the perceived victims.

IOW, just as the OP explains, conservative Christians have facilitated the exact opposite of what they wanted.

 

[Wormwood]

Actually I did read the article, and it is full of allegations vs. Rick Warren and Pat Roberson by a "think tank" in Boston. This is an accusation and nothing more. There are many other articles out there that claim these allegations are false. Maybe you should read more of the Huffington Post and its pro-homosexuality agenda or the ads that plaster the article you sent me.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/rick-warren-responds-to-rumors-says-he-strongly-opposes-ugandas-anti-homosexuality-law-115483/

I don't know how I can be more clear. The Bible does not include genocide in a list of sins God abhors. Certainly it is a horrendous sin. I am talking about sins that are frequently mentioned in the Bible. Of THOSE sins, homosexuality is listed at the bottom with idolatry and witchcraft.

Who said anything about "devoting massing resources" to opposing homosexuality? What are you talking about?

Look I am done with this conversation. If you want to wave the flag that homosexuals are an oppressed people group in America that need sanction from all the hostile God-loving Christians out there, then you already have the hook sunk in your jaw and I have no desire to fish it out for you. We are talking about something that God hates which is bringing his wrath on the world and you are more interested in promoting their cause then you are denouncing their activities.

Clearly you have an axe to grind here. I am speaking of this as a simple American Christian who is seeing this behavior permeate the church, seminaries and is the torch many contemporary Christian authors are carrying. I never hear pastors "attack" homosexuals, but I do see those who believe the Bible attacked and labeled as bigots and hate-mongers regularly. You take a couple articles from liberal groups that actively promote homosexuality and use that as cannon fodder to blast people who are trying to be faithful to the Word of God. You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[River Jordan]

Actually I did read the article, and it is full of allegations vs. Rick Warren and Pat Roberson by a "think tank" in Boston.

And as I pointed out, from.....the people who actually wrote the "kill the gays" bill. Other than that.....

This is an accusation and nothing more.

Yeah, I'm sure those Africans who wrote the bill were completely lying when they said there was a "definite link" between it and American Christian groups.

Nah...nothing to see here.

I don't know how I can be more clear. The Bible does not include genocide in a list of sins God abhors. Certainly it is a horrendous sin. I am talking about sins that are frequently mentioned in the Bible. Of THOSE sins, homosexuality is listed at the bottom with idolatry and witchcraft.

At the bottom of what? I thought you said such a list didn't exist.

Who said anything about "devoting massing resources" to opposing homosexuality? What are you talking about?

I've said plenty about that. It's been my point through most of this thread.

Look I am done with this conversation.

Thanks for your input.

If you want to wave the flag that homosexuals are an oppressed people group in America that need sanction from all the hostile God-loving Christians out there, then you already have the hook sunk in your jaw and I have no desire to fish it out for you.

Who else do you think is behind the anti-gay ballot measures? What legal groups go to courts and defend discrimination against gays? It sure ain't secular groups!

Clearly you have an axe to grind here. I am speaking of this as a simple American Christian who is seeing this behavior permeate the church, seminaries and is the torch many contemporary Christian authors are carrying. I never hear pastors "attack" homosexuals, but I do see those who believe the Bible attacked and labeled as bigots and hate-mongers regularly. You take a couple articles from liberal groups that actively promote homosexuality and use that as cannon fodder to blast people who are trying to be faithful to the Word of God. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Right....the person who is saying we are all God's children and are deserving of basic respect and civil protections is the one who should be ashamed.

I believe my point in the OP has been demonstrated extremely well in this thread.

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

IOW, just as the OP explains, conservative Christians have facilitated the exact opposite of what they wanted.


You are referring to the OP as you name conservative Christians, which means you are equating phelps with conservative Christianity. Do you realize how ignorant this makes you appear? Do you understand how these types of statements puts you into the same category as phelps? You are not taken seriously because of this.

 

[River Jordan]

You are referring to the OP as you name conservative Christians, which means you are equating phelps with conservative Christianity. Do you realize how ignorant this makes you appear? Do you understand how these types of statements puts you into the same category as phelps? You are not taken seriously because of this.

Look at what I've posted....examples of conservative Christians (not Phelps' gang) singling out gays for some pretty awful treatment, and generally giving the impression that homosexuality is somehow a worse sin that just about anything else.

That has created a bully-victim perception that the gay community has used to their advantage and is IMO a big reason why public opinion on this issue has shifted so dramatically and quickly. You can look at survey after survey and see that the perception is that Christianity is "being too judgmental" on gay issues.

That's the commonality. It's not the tactics or the levels of hate, it's the hyper-focus on gays that I'm drawing comparisons to.

 

[KingJ]

They also stoned people for picking up sticks on the Sabbath.

Really? You sound like the devil. The Jews judged matters properly before sentence was carried out. Mocking them like this shows either extreme ignorance or deviousness. In fact you remind me of Obama http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hi-V_ilJu0w.

Now the UNSAVED have an excuse before God for IGNORANCE and HALF TRUTHS. What is your excuse?

 

[aspen]

First the devil.........BUT THEN Obama?! That a is just mean.....lol
I do not believe that present day American culture discriminates against homosexuality, but this has only been true for the past 10 to 15 years. Back in the early 90s we were still discriminating against single mothers. Since Fundamentalist value turning back the clock and recapturing the values of the past, which only valued white males 30 and above, I think their views are a threat to the majority of people who do not fit the mold.

 

[River Jordan]

Really? You sound like the devil. The Jews judged matters properly before sentence was carried out. Mocking them like this shows either extreme ignorance or deviousness. In fact you remind me of Obama http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hi-V_ilJu0w.

Now the UNSAVED have an excuse before God for IGNORANCE and HALF TRUTHS. What is your excuse?

Whenever I see that KingJ has responded to one of my posts, I know I'm about to get a good laugh....and this sure didn't disappoint.

I do not believe that present day American culture discriminates against homosexuality, but this has only been true for the past 10 to 15 years.

You should tell that to those who are fired from their jobs, denied housing, denied visitation, denied services, simply because they're gay.