For those who deny the Most Holy Trinity!

[jaybird]

I am aware Jesus had Jewish disciples, but it is silly for you to pretend there were not also Jews opposed to Him and that His ministry did not lead to His persecution by Jewish authorities. There is a reason why those who believed kept on believing and were to be called "Christian" and were no longer identified as Jews...



Certain places having laws forcing the belief of the trinity does not mean it was everywhere, nor that theocratic laws are particular to Christians who believe in the Trinity.

It is not news Christianity is made up of human beings that are sinful fallen creatures. Just as early Christians were persecuted in droves while they were still a fledgling religion, once they assumed power some of those in charge would persecute those of other faiths. The older a particular Christian Church is, the longer it had for some of its adherents to commit atrocities, especially in less civilized times. The actions of those who proclaim a religion's truth do not diminish the truth of that religion. If it did, then every form of Christianity or any other faith would be false.

A final point, Newton was a mathematical genius, but to appeal to his authority regarding religion is useless and the man also believed in astrology, the creation of gold from lead through alchemy, and used himself for experiments that included jabbing a sewing bodkin behind his eye. He was not the most sensible of men. Ironic fun fact: Newton attended Trinity College.

Sure there were Jews opposed to Jesus, the herodean temple leadership, that was less than 5% of the population.

Jesus says stay away from bad teachers and bad fruit, but your saying we should ignore Jesus because men are sinful?
Burning an entire village to the ground IMO is a bit more than your avg everyday sinful person, it's pure evil.
I like Newton, most scientist are atheist, then you have a teeny tiny few that believe, and Newton was deeply spiritual. I think that says a lot. He also didn't persecute Christians.

 

[theefaith]

The reason for the Jews not accepting the Trinity is that they do not accept Christ, so they will obviously deny His divinity, as well as His equality with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Therefore, why would any Christian base their beliefs regarding Jesus on the disbelief in Him that led to His execution in the first place?



Many people believe without any of their family being burned, and that's certainly true for the modern ages. Furthermore, you have to be purposefully misinterpreting the New Testament in order to not see the many times in which Jesus confirms His divinity and His unity with the Father and the Holy Spirit. This is why you have no appropriate answer for any of the verses I have presented, and you ignore them in order to insert rhetoric where an argument should be.

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

the holy church of Jesus Christ is the source of truth not Jews who killed Christ!
We are to listen to the church of the apostles acts 2:42

 

[jaybird]

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

the holy church of Jesus Christ is the source of truth not Jews who killed Christ!
We are to listen to the church of the apostles acts 2:42

The Jews that killed Jesus were put in place by Herod who was a roman puppet. The Jews hated them

 

[theefaith]

Israel as a nation in the name of the high priest killed Him, it is better for one man to die etc. and the nation crying crucify him crucify him

 

[jaybird]

Israel as a nation in the name of the high priest killed Him, it is better for one man to die etc. and the nation crying crucify him crucify him

Rome killed Jesus, the people of Israel hated their oppressive rulers and had no say in it.

 

[theefaith]

Rome killed Jesus, the people of Israel hated their oppressive rulers and had no say in it.

really? Yes Rome was the instrument but the Bible says the Jews killed Christ

Acts 2:23 you(the jews)

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

 

[jaybird]

really? Yes Rome was the instrument but the Bible says the Jews killed Christ

Acts 2:23 you(the jews)

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

John the baptist, the 12, st Paul killed Jesus? they were Jews.

see how stupid that is.

 

[theefaith]

The nation of Israel

 

[jaybird]

Until I pointed that out, you seemed to be saying the opposite. Now, the reason for many Jews in Jesus's day, and in modern-day not accepting the Trinity is that they do not accept Him as Christ, so they will obviously deny His divinity, as well as His equality with the Father, and the Holy Spirit.

no its the trinity three gods, that they dont accept. when Jesus and the12 were teaching Jews, with the exception of the priest leadership who were corrupt, Herodeans, and made up only a teeny tiny bit of "the Jews", had no problem with what Jesus taught.
in in greatest commandment Jesus even agrees with the scribe that the Most High is one. and when a scribe says "one" they mean a Jewish "one" not a trinity "one", Jews have never had a trinity doctrine.

That is not what I am saying. Any sin is an evil act, because it means one disobeyed God. Every institution is made up of individuals who commit good, as well as evil of their own free will.

exactly, the church burning people alive to force them through fear, death and destruction, to believe in the triity is an easy example of men sinning. if a doctrine is biblicaly sound you should not have to kill everyone to make them believe. so whats that say about the trinity, not good.

He also believed in astrology, the creation of gold from lead through alchemy, and used himself for experiments that included jabbing a sewing bodkin behind his eye. He was not the most sensible of men. One being a genius in x does not mean they are in every field, e.g., religion.

astrology like the wise men following a star, how did they know that star was so important, what field of knowledge teaches that? and Gen even teaches the stars are there for signs.
he didnt jam a needle i his eye like an idiot, he was pinning down the areas around his eye to alter the reception of tthe light.
lol just because he is a genius in everything he studied, and one of the greatest minds of all time, what would they know about anything. is this what your saying because thats kind of a foolish statement.

 

[jaybird]

The scribe asked Jesus what the first commandment of all was (Mk. 12:28), and He answered, "The first commandment of all is, Hear, O Israel: the Lord thy God is one God. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God, with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength. This is the first commandment" (Mk. 12:29-31). The scribe agreed by saying, "Well, Master, thou hast said in truth, that there is one God, and there is no other besides him. And that he should be loved with the whole heart, and with the whole understanding, and with the whole soul, and with the whole strength; and to love one's neighbor as one's self, is a greater thing than all holocausts and sacrifices" (Mk. 12:32-33).

Again, there is one God (Is. 45:21, Mk. 12:29), and the ancient Jews understood this, and they were waiting for the Messiah, but many, if not most, did not expect/understand He would be God Himself, much less God with a threefold and single nature born as a humble poor man. That is part of the reason many of the Jews were disinclined to believe Jesus when He identified Himself as God, and attempted to seize/kill Him for blasphemy.

no one was expecting it because its not taught. dont say they were confused and didnt get what the scriptures teach, Elijah, Moses, Samuel were all men of the Most High, they didnt teach anything like this.
and your ignoring the most important part, Jesus agrees with the Jewish non trinitarian view.

Baptists, Catholics, and modern-day Jews believe in one God, but only Baptists and Catholics understand that one God is also threefold in nature, and that He is the Messiah, Jesus, the prophets foretold. The following is a simplistic and inexact, but sufficient comparison for the point I am making: Water has three natures: liquid, solid, and gas (vapor), just as God has three natures: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

the church once taught the sun revolved around the earth, demons caused clergy to make translation errors. man makes mistakes everyday.

The Trinity is a concept that is particularly difficult, if not impossible, for a Jew to understand until they first recognize/accept that Jesus is God.

impossible to accept because they only worship one Most High.



However, it is not that the only way to achieve causing others to accept the Trinity was to burn them. Many still do accept it every day without the need to burn anyone. You are conflating what people in the Church had done, sinfully, a long time ago, with the doctrine that the Church has followed since long before anybody was burned by Christians, but instead Christians were burned for believing it. These things are not tied. One is not the result of the other. It is not necessary to kill to believe in the Trinity.

Jesus explained how the three Wise Men knew the star had significance: "Science made them believe in the sign of the new star, which could only be "the one" expected by mankind for centuries: the Messiah. Because of their consciences, they had faith in the voices of their consciences, which heard heavenly "voices" saying to them: "That is the star announcing the advent of the "Messiah." Because of God's goodness, they believed that God would not deceive them, and since their intention was honest, He would help them in every way to reach their aim, and they were successful. Among so many people fond of studying signs, they were the only ones who understood that sign, because their souls were anxious to know the words of God for an honest purpose, the main care of which was to praise, and honor, God immediately." (The Poem of the Man-God: Volume I, by Maria Valtorta, ch. 34, p. 102)

yes, its called astrology

Regarding Newton, I said he "used himself for experiments that included jabbing a sewing bodkin behind his eye," an act no one can honestly say is sensible. I did not say he was jamming a needle into it like an idiot, but we should not idolize someone to the point where we disregard the more peculiar, and unsafe, things they had done.

no you didnt say "he was jamming a needle into it like an idiot", you just made it sound like he was an imbecile for jamming a needle in his eye because people dont just jam needles into their eye, however you omitted the part on why he was doing it, very misleading and deceptful.

Now, despite what you may think, I actually like and appreciate Isaac Newton. However, rather than say, "What would they know about anything?", I am saying that his, nor anyone's, genius makes him an expert in all fields. There are plenty of geniuses with other, or no religious beliefs, but you seem to put Newton on a pedestal, because his religious beliefs align with your own. Then, you turn around and seem to say "See! This man is on a pedestal for being so smart in his fields of expertise! He is worth listening to regarding theology because of this!"

maybe your right, maybe he didnt know what he was talking about on the trinity, if only we knew more, and why dont we know more? because had he came out publicly he could have lost his home, his job, incarcerated, his respect in the community, short of burning him alive he would have been destroyed.
guess its pretty easy to make a theory fact when all the evidence against is censored.

 

[jaybird]

I quoted the scribe agreeing with Jesus's answer to his question in full, and part of what he agreed with was Jesus stating there is one God (Mk. 12:32-33). This is what ancient Jews, modern-day Jews, Baptists, and Catholics believe to be true, and it is part of the Trinitarian doctrine. The other part of it is that the nature of the one God is threefold and single, which is scriptural as well.

Jews don't believe in a trinity and Jesus agreed with that. Sorry but no matter how you spin it that fact will not change.

 

[theefaith]

Until I pointed that out, you seemed to be saying there were no Jews opposed to Jesus. Now, the reason for many Jews in Jesus's day, and modern-day not accepting the Trinity is that they do not accept Him as Christ, so they will obviously deny His divinity, as well as His equality with the Father, and the Holy Spirit.



That is not what I am saying. Any sin is an evil act because it means one disobeyed God. Every institution is made up of individuals who commit good and evil of their own free will.



He also believed in astrology, the creation of gold from lead through alchemy, and used himself for experiments that included jabbing a sewing bodkin behind his eye. He was not the most sensible of men. One being a genius in x does not mean they are in every field, e.g., religion.

Trinity

1 jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

 

[theefaith]

1 Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

one God three persons

I found where the occult Freemasons were the founders of the Mormons, SDA, and JW’s

 

[theefaith]

The scribe asked Jesus what the first commandment of all was (Mk. 12:28), and He answered, "The first commandment of all is, Hear, O Israel: the Lord thy God is one God. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God, with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength. This is the first commandment" (Mk. 12:29-31).

The scribe agreed with Him by saying, "Well, Master, thou hast said in truth, that there is one God, and there is no other besides him. And that he should be loved with the whole heart, and with the whole understanding, and with the whole soul, and with the whole strength; and to love one's neighbor as one's self, is a greater thing than all holocausts and sacrifices" (Mk. 12:32-33).

As shown above, part of Jesus's answer the scribe agreed with was His statement there is one God (Mk. 12:32-33), and this is what ancient/modern-day Jews, Baptists, and Catholics agree to be true.

However, one cannot also ignore the following Old Testament verse: “Then God [Elohim] said, ‘Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." (Gen. 1:26)

Additionally, out of the Hebrew, it is found that nouns and adjectives describing God are in the plural form: Ecc. 12:1, Ps. 149:2, Jos. 24:19, Is. 54:5, etc.

In the New Testament, Jesus instructs His apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19). Jesus is treating the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as equals, and if He and the Holy Spirit are not God, then He was instructing His apostles to perform blasphemy.

Therefore, therefore there is Scriptural evidence to support the one God is threefold and single in nature.

one God yes referring to the divine nature not persons
The father is God
The son is God
The Holy Spirit is God
But there are not three Gods but one God deut. 6
Not three Lords but one Lord eph 4:5

 

[theefaith]

But there still are three that bear witness in heaven why?

1 Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

three persons / one God!
If it was one God and one person acting in the role of the father, the word, and spirit their could not be three in heaven bearing witness!


holy holy holy is the Lord God of Hosts!
Most holy trinity undivided unity!

and Mary is mother of God Lk 1:43
Not mother of the divinity but mother of God cos Jesus is God

 

[theefaith]

Again, we do not disagree.

Thanks

 

[jaybird]

The scribe asked Jesus what the first commandment of all was (Mk. 12:28), and He answered, "The first commandment of all is, Hear, O Israel: the Lord thy God is one God. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God, with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength. This is the first commandment" (Mk. 12:29-31).

The scribe agreed with Him by saying, "Well, Master, thou hast said in truth, that there is one God, and there is no other besides him. And that he should be loved with the whole heart, and with the whole understanding, and with the whole soul, and with the whole strength; and to love one's neighbor as one's self, is a greater thing than all holocausts and sacrifices" (Mk. 12:32-33).

As shown above, part of Jesus's answer the scribe agreed with was His statement there is one God (Mk. 12:32-33), and this is what ancient/modern-day Jews, Baptists, and Catholics agree to be true.

However, one cannot ignore the following Old Testament verse: “Then God [Elohim] said, ‘Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." (Gen. 1:26)

Additionally, out of the Hebrew, it is found that nouns and adjectives describing God are in the plural form: Ecc. 12:1, Ps. 149:2, Jos. 24:19, Is. 54:5, etc.

In the New Testament, Jesus instructs His apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19). Jesus is treating the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as equals, and if He and the Holy Spirit are not God, then He was instructing His apostles to perform blasphemy.

Therefore, therefore there is Scriptural evidence to support the one God is threefold and single in nature.

When a Jew says the Most High is One, they mean one as in no triune, no persons , no other gods and no trinity.
You know good and well that Jews don't believe in a trinity, this scribe didn't, and Jesus agreed with the scribe.
You going off into left field with all the "Jews, Catholic and baptist believe in one Most High" is just a bunch of sidestepping. You know a Jew doesn't mean trinity when they say the Most High is"one". Your not fooling anyone with that.

 

[theefaith]

When a Jew says the Most High is One, they mean one as in no triune, no persons , no other gods and no trinity.
You know good and well that Jews don't believe in a trinity, this scribe didn't, and Jesus agreed with the scribe.
You going off into left field with all the "Jews, Catholic and baptist believe in one Most High" is just a bunch of sidestepping. You know a Jew doesn't mean trinity when they say the Most High is"one". Your not fooling anyone with that.

we agree there’s is only one uncreated eternal divine nature

 

[theefaith]

The scribe agreed with Jesus's statement there is one God: "Well, Master, thou hast said in truth, that there is one God..." (Mk. 12:32).

Ancient/modern-day Jews, Baptists, and Catholics agree there is one God (Is. 45:21, Mk. 12:29).

There is also scriptural to support that same God has a threefold and singular nature: “Then God [Elohim] said, ‘Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." (Gen. 1:26)

Additionally, out of the Hebrew, it is found that nouns and adjectives describing God are in the plural form: Ecc. 12:1, Ps. 149:2, Jos. 24:19, Is. 54:5, etc.

In the New Testament, Jesus instructs His apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19). Jesus is treating the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as equals, and if He and the Holy Spirit are not God, then He was instructing His apostles to perform blasphemy.

but God is not a name or a person but a nature

 

[jaybird]

The scribe agreed with Jesus's statement there is one God: "Well, Master, thou hast said in truth, that there is one God..." (Mk. 12:32).

Ancient/modern-day Jews, Baptists, and Catholics agree there is one God (Is. 45:21, Mk. 12:29).

There is also scriptural to support that same God has a threefold and singular nature: “Then God [Elohim] said, ‘Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." (Gen. 1:26)

Additionally, out of the Hebrew, it is found that nouns and adjectives describing God are in the plural form: Ecc. 12:1, Ps. 149:2, Jos. 24:19, Is. 54:5, etc.

In the New Testament, Jesus instructs His apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19). Jesus is treating the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as equals, and if He and the Holy Spirit are not God, then He was instructing His apostles to perform blasphemy.

They agree on the Jewish non trinity "one". There is no trinity in judaism.
Again,when a Jew says one, he means a non trinity one.
Do you know what judaism is?