For those who deny the Most Holy Trinity!

[Freeborn]

no you have not come close to showing anything like this, all you have done is take shots in the dark.

in Mark 12 Jesus agrees with mainstream Judaism

Mark 12 disproves the trinity

no you have not come close to showing anything like this, all you have done is take shots in the dark.

in Mark 12 Jesus agrees with mainstream Judaism

Mark 12 disproves the trinity

soul said: ↑
I have shown you that Jesus spoke of God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit and that they are one. This threefold and single nature of God is what many call "the Trinity."

Please quote one verse that mentions, God the son (Jesus). It is not in any scripture.

 

[jaybird]

soul said: ↑
I have shown you that Jesus spoke of God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit and that they are one. This threefold and single nature of God is what many call "the Trinity."

Please quote one verse that mentions, God the son (Jesus). It is not in any scripture.

the trinity does not have plain teachings like that. for the trinity you have to take non related scripture and proclaim they are the trinity, a good example would be when Jesus says He and the Father are one. trins like to claim this is the trinity! even though it really has nothig to do with the trinity and it even gets worse when in the same passage Jesus says believers are one with Jesus. trinity logic only makes sense to other trinitarians.

 

[jaybird]

You think the Jews do not believe in God?

no idea what you are talking about.

 

[jaybird]

Refer back to post #290.

there is no need to refer back to anything, your argument has been disproved and you are using cheap distractions that i am not biting on.
nice try

 

[jaybird]

The verse you presented does not contradict rather supports the ones I presented. Therefore, I have not been disproven.

Jesus agrees with the mainstream Jewish "non trinity" idea of "one". this blows up your argument.

sorry

 

[Brakelite]

that’s not a valid baptism
Why deny the person of Jesus yo baptize in his name???
It is required that there be running water over the fore head three times with the words in the name of the father, the son, and the a Holy Ghost with the intent to baptize! Matt 28:19 Infants included acts 1:38-39

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Ac 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Ac 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Ac 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

I guess all the above were invalid. I wonder how many thousands of other baptisms were in the name of Jesus, making them invalid also? What does that say for the faithfulness of the apostles upon which the church was founded when they baptized everyone incorrectly?

 

[Brakelite]

Oh no! Now you joking

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

so Jesus did not say these words???

acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

This is a command in the name of Jesus to be baptized in the name of the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit!

the command to be baptized is in the name of a Jesus not baptism in the name of Jesus!

there is only one God (nature) but three persons, the father and I are one (nature) I come to do thy will (persons) the son doing the fathers will
You can either believe the trinity or that Jesus is not not but not both

John 17:11 ¶ And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Many Christians use this verse to prove that the Father and Son are the same. They are "one". Because God is "one". Yet what Jesus is saying here is that we can also be one with one another as Christ is one with the Father. Does that make us therefore a very much larger version of the trinity because we are all "one"?

 

[amadeus]

John 17:11 ¶ And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Many Christians use this verse to prove that the Father and Son are the same. They are "one". Because God is "one". Yet what Jesus is saying here is that we can also be one with one another as Christ is one with the Father. Does that make us therefore a very much larger version of the trinity because we are all "one"?

Therefore instead of a Trinity that should be a Multiplicity consisting all those becoming One with Jesus and the Father!

 

[Brakelite]

He did if you wish to say he contradicted himself.

Thank you for proving my point. :) Peter didn't say, baptize in the name of the father, son, holy spirit, there.

That's a lie. Not even the scripture says that. You're really stretching now.


You just contradicted yourself. False teaching math is the only math formula from whence one equals three.
God is God. God , all scripture now, is holy. God is spirit. Jesus was/is God. Jesus wasn't a separate person. Jesus was begat upon Mary by God! God creates all things that exist of and from himself. Jesus was God, just as Jesus stated numerous times in his ministry. When you're one with the one you're not a second or third person. And spirit? Is not person! God is a spirit, the holy spirit. That indwells the Christian the moment they are saved. How's that happen? Because we're like everything else that exists anywhere at all. We're created of and from GOD! Who is one!
See, Christianity is a Monotheistic faith!
Not a Polytheistic one.
You are free to accept Polytheism. Don't think you'll lead me to follow.
Baptize in the name of God. You don't get it. The angel gave Mary the name of God on earth before he was born to deliver his grace through his new covenant. EMMANUEL! God with us! God with us was Jesus the Christ. Jesus the anointed!

I and my father are one!

As is truth forever. When the false teaching that is Trinity has a date hundreds of years after Jesus departed to heaven, we know it is a man made construct. And it is. It is of pagan origin. Polytheistic origin.
Jesus never taught the Trinity. Why? Because as God he knew it did not exist. He told us so in the old testament.

The one verse that shuts down the pagan Polytheists Triune false teaching? This one:
I, only I, am the Lord, And there is no savior besides Me. Isaiah 43:11(NASB)


Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other; there is no God but Me.

I am not what one would call a strict trinitarian. I cringe at attempting to define God's nature...especially the holy Spirit. I do believe however there are three distinct persons in the Godhead. I do not believe however the Spirit of God is a person in the same manner as the other two, nevertheless is distinct from them. Let me make a number of points which I believe are beyond contention...for most people anyway.

• John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. If Jesus was with the Father, He cannot be the Father. Therefore, two distinct persons. Before creation. 1 Corinthians 8:4 ¶ As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
• John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: The 'oneness' of the Godhead is in mind, in purpose, in character, but not in person. This is the same 'oneness' we may have with Jesus and with one another (John 10:30) but such oneness doesn't propel us to deity.
  
• Both the Father and the Son are fully God. John 1:1. In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God...and the word became flesh...
• No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. John 1:18
  Textual evidence is divided between the readings ―Son and ―God. Either way would be reference to Christ. If the reading ―God is accepted, the sense would then be: ―the unique one, very God, the one abiding in the bosom of the Father, or the only one (who is) God, the one who abides in the bosom of the Father. Here it is being said that some extant manuscripts say ―Son (only begotten Son) whilst others say ―God (only begotten God). This brings us to a very interesting conclusion. This conclusion is that this verse could easily read ―No man hath seen God at any time, God the only begotten which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. Thus we could have the terminology, God begotten (not a begotten god or a lesser god but God Himself begotten). Here I believe is the mystery of Godliness, God manifest in the flesh. The Son of God is God Himself (the one and only God) begotten but is also a separate personality from God (the Father). This is exactly as the New International Version puts this verse.
  No-one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father‘s side, has made him known John 1:18 New International Version. This is in complete harmony with the opening words of John‘s gospel that says ―In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. John 1:1-2 The Scriptures tell us that the Word that eventually became flesh (see John 1:14) was not only with God but was, in His pre-existence and in the highest sense, God. He was therefore, and is right now,
  Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high. Distinct persons, both God.
  
• John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
  10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
  Jesus, the Son of God is the Father's second self. Like Father, like Son. If the Father is God, therefore the Son must be also.
  
  
• Composed of the same substance, and possessing the same attributes.
  Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
  6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.
  For Jesus, being God was not something He needed to cleave hold of in light of the need of man's salvation. Despite having all the attributes of God, being in the same substance (form) of His Father, and equal to the Father in all things (except rank), He was willing to lay that all aside in order to become a human. He remained Who He was, God, but the attributes we usually apply to God, the Son left behind. He lived just as we need to. BY faith.
• The Son is subject to the Father, and always was. The Father has absolute authority, the Son has delegated authority.
• 1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
  Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
  Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
  Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
  Even at creation, though we know and understand that the Son, Jesus created all things, He did so only because He was following the Father's will.
  Hebrews 1:1 ¶ God, (the Father) who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
  2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.
  

These things are what I know and understand from scripture. What I do not know, and what I am loathe to assume, is how the Son is a Son. I believe He is a literal Son, begotten of the Father in eternity, Who set aside His divine attributes in order to become a man. Some of those divine attributes were permanently sacrificed for our sake. It wasn't just death that the sacrifice was all about. The Father gave His Son to the human race...forever. And there was a huge eternal risk in doing that...Jesus, being human, was subject to all the same temptations we face, partook of the same nature as we have, (only not fallen) and therefore faced the same choices Adam faced in Eden...a perfect human being capable of facing temptation, and falling. Thus Jesus being the second Adam. None can imagine the loss the universe would have suffered had Jesus sinned.

 

[Brakelite]

Therefore instead of a Trinity that should be a Multiplicity consisting all those becoming One with Jesus and the Father!

And all therefore God!

 

[jaybird]

Jesus speaks of one God as am I. That is why Mk. 12:29 supports my argument. You just do not understand the three natures of God: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit do not mean three Gods who are not the same one God.

Mark 12 rules out the three gods/natures/persons or whatever else you want to call it as it supports the Jewish non trinity understanding of the Most High.
you have been proven wrong

 

[jaybird]

In Mk. 12:29 Jesus said "one God" and there is. In Mat. 28:19 He named the three natures of God, and in 1. Jn. 5:7 the Apostle John says those three natures are one, as in "one God" and that is the same God Jesus spoke of in Mk. 12:29. Therefore, you have not proven me wrong. You just do not understand the threefold and single nature of God.

32And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him

when the scribe says "He is one" he is not talking about a trinity because the Jews did not believe in such a doctrine and they never have.
Jesus agrees with the scribe.
you have been proven wrong

 

[WaterSong]

I am not what one would call a strict trinitarian. I cringe at attempting to define God's nature...especially the holy Spirit. I do believe however there are three distinct persons in the Godhead. I do not believe however the Spirit of God is a person in the same manner as the other two, nevertheless is distinct from them. Let me make a number of points which I believe are beyond contention...for most people anyway.

• John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. If Jesus was with the Father, He cannot be the Father. Therefore, two distinct persons. Before creation. 1 Corinthians 8:4 ¶ As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
• John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: The 'oneness' of the Godhead is in mind, in purpose, in character, but not in person. This is the same 'oneness' we may have with Jesus and with one another (John 10:30) but such oneness doesn't propel us to deity.
  
• Both the Father and the Son are fully God. John 1:1. In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God...and the word became flesh...
• No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. John 1:18
  Textual evidence is divided between the readings ―Son and ―God. Either way would be reference to Christ. If the reading ―God is accepted, the sense would then be: ―the unique one, very God, the one abiding in the bosom of the Father, or the only one (who is) God, the one who abides in the bosom of the Father. Here it is being said that some extant manuscripts say ―Son (only begotten Son) whilst others say ―God (only begotten God). This brings us to a very interesting conclusion. This conclusion is that this verse could easily read ―No man hath seen God at any time, God the only begotten which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. Thus we could have the terminology, God begotten (not a begotten god or a lesser god but God Himself begotten). Here I believe is the mystery of Godliness, God manifest in the flesh. The Son of God is God Himself (the one and only God) begotten but is also a separate personality from God (the Father). This is exactly as the New International Version puts this verse.
  No-one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father‘s side, has made him known John 1:18 New International Version. This is in complete harmony with the opening words of John‘s gospel that says ―In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. John 1:1-2 The Scriptures tell us that the Word that eventually became flesh (see John 1:14) was not only with God but was, in His pre-existence and in the highest sense, God. He was therefore, and is right now,
  Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high. Distinct persons, both God.
  
• John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
  10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
  Jesus, the Son of God is the Father's second self. Like Father, like Son. If the Father is God, therefore the Son must be also.
  
  
• Composed of the same substance, and possessing the same attributes.
  Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
  6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.
  For Jesus, being God was not something He needed to cleave hold of in light of the need of man's salvation. Despite having all the attributes of God, being in the same substance (form) of His Father, and equal to the Father in all things (except rank), He was willing to lay that all aside in order to become a human. He remained Who He was, God, but the attributes we usually apply to God, the Son left behind. He lived just as we need to. BY faith.
• The Son is subject to the Father, and always was. The Father has absolute authority, the Son has delegated authority.
• 1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
  Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
  Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
  Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
  Even at creation, though we know and understand that the Son, Jesus created all things, He did so only because He was following the Father's will.
  Hebrews 1:1 ¶ God, (the Father) who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
  2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.

These things are what I know and understand from scripture. What I do not know, and what I am loathe to assume, is how the Son is a Son. I believe He is a literal Son, begotten of the Father in eternity, Who set aside His divine attributes in order to become a man. Some of those divine attributes were permanently sacrificed for our sake. It wasn't just death that the sacrifice was all about. The Father gave His Son to the human race...forever. And there was a huge eternal risk in doing that...Jesus, being human, was subject to all the same temptations we face, partook of the same nature as we have, (only not fallen) and therefore faced the same choices Adam faced in Eden...a perfect human being capable of facing temptation, and falling. Thus Jesus being the second Adam. None can imagine the loss the universe would have suffered had Jesus sinned.

I think where the mistake occurs for those that adhere to the Trinity doctrine in any fashion is in forgetting Jesus was God.
Which would necessarily preclude two separate persons in considering Jesus, and God.
Jesus even told us this, that he was God, that one. "'Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.' So the Jews said to him, 'You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?' Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.' John 8

Recalling the OT and God's instruction unto Moses: Exodus 3:14 “And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.”

 

[jaybird]

In Mk. 12:29 Jesus said "one God" and there is. In Mat. 28:19 He named the three natures of God, and in 1. Jn. 5:7 the Apostle John says those three natures are one, as in "one God" and that is the same God Jesus spoke of in Mk. 12:29. Therefore, you have not proven me wrong. Do you want me to help you understand the threefold and single nature of God?

when a mainstream Jew says "He is one", what do they mean?

 

[Freeborn]

Jesus speaks of one God as am I. That is why Mk. 12:29 supports my argument. You just do not understand the three natures of God: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit do not mean three Gods who are not the same one God.

God commands us not to add to his word. so, quote a verse which says what you said; three natures of God. prove this with Scripture, or else admit it is not true and seek for the truth.

 

[Freeborn]

I think where the mistake occurs for those that adhere to the Trinity doctrine in any fashion is in forgetting Jesus was God.
Which would necessarily preclude two separate persons in considering Jesus, and God.
Jesus even told us this, that he was God, that one. "'Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.' So the Jews said to him, 'You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?' Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.' John 8

Recalling the OT and God's instruction unto Moses: Exodus 3:14 “And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.”

Jesus was not God. Jesus was and still is a MAN. a human like us. Only now he is glorified. there is one God and one mediator between God and men, THE MAN CHRIST JESUS. the I Am the father, was speaking through Jesus. It was the Word of God speaking inside Jesus. If Jesus had not been man, he could not have died and therefore could never have reconciled us back to God. It was a man, Adam, who brought about the fall and it had to be a man to bring salvation from the fall. Romans 5,6,7

 

[Freeborn]

when a mainstream Jew says "He is one", what do they mean?

Being one means to be in a unity. agreement. No scripture mentions any three natures of God. this is total false doctrine. Jesus prayed in John 17 that we would all be ONE AS HE AND THE FATHER ARE ONE. The Father is not referring to the natural birth of Jesus, but rather his spiritual birth. God gave to Jesus the Holy Ghost when Jesus was baptized. Jesus was glorified to become the only begotten son of God when he was RESURRECTED. Romans 1: 4.

 

[101G]

Being one means to be in a unity. agreement. No scripture mentions any three natures of God. this is total false doctrine. Jesus prayed in John 17 that we would all be ONE AS HE AND THE FATHER ARE ONE. The Father is not referring to the natural birth of Jesus, but rather his spiritual birth. God gave to Jesus the Holy Ghost when Jesus was baptized. Jesus was glorified to become the only begotten son of God when he was RESURRECTED. Romans 1: 4.

this is a good discussion. may I say this for consideration, "God is ONE in Nature", but that one nature is a plurality of itself/himself. not a plurality in seperation, but a plurality of equally shared. supportive scripture, Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"
notice NOT God is an H259 אֶחָד 'echad as in a unity, but an echad in ordinal. look at the definition,
H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj.
1. (properly) united, i.e. one.
2. (as an ordinal) first.
[a numeral from H258]
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
Root(s): H258

as LORD, God is the ordinal First, and as Lord, God, the same one NATURE God, is ordinal Last. see the difference, both of you are getting at the same thing but are in my oponion missing what the scripture is actually saying in Deuteronomy 6:4. read it again.

but good discussion.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[user]

Being one means to be in a unity. agreement.

Please note the difference here...

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

You can plainly see the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost ARE ONE! If this were saying three, it would phrase the words as in the next verse, agree in one (unity).

Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

 

[theefaith]

No. not one word of any of that is in God's word. it is all false doctrine. it is made up lies.

what about this dogma?

there is only one God.

why must it be in the Bible?
Where does it say the word of a God is limited to the Bible?