For the anti-vax people here

[Whetstone]

No, I think you're using invalid data. No way is the vaccine death rate that high - as far as I can discover no death has yet been definitely attributed to the vaccine by any reputable investigator.

But it's naïve to think that deaths would be attributable to the vaccine. No media outlet would be brave enough to suggest it for fear of being sued. And it's simply a fact that it takes ages, sometimes years to fight a case against Pharma to claim damages for being a vaccine injury victim. So any notion that any damage being done by the vaccines would immediately hit the headlines is simply naïve.

Remember, Thalidomide, was similarly revered. The public were told IT WAS TOTALLY SAFE but it took 4 YEARS before they finally realised it was disastrous. Between 1957 and 1962, thalidomide was sold in 46 countries under 65 different brand names, aggressively marketed by Chemie Gruenethal, the German pharmaceutical company who developed it. Thalidomide was taken off the market in summer of 1962 after mounting evidence placed increasing pressure on Grunenthal when scientists discovered that the drug damages the fetus in the first 60 days of pregnancy

It seems we have learned nothing from such past atrocities and blatant assaults on human health for the sake of Pharma profits.

Such disasters happen because the Pharma industry is not properly controlled. The tail wags the dog. Pharma controls the health industry.

They happen because capitalist profits trump health considerations and profits create powerful conglomerates who have massive lobbying power and who then become bulletproof.

Rather than curb the abilities of Pharma in this respect they instead just changed laws and legislation to make it impossible for anyone to sue vaccine companies. Yes, you heard that right. Laws are now in place that mean the public cannot sue vaccine manufacturers even if they harm you, permanently disable you or kill you. How sick is such a situation? Your only redress is via the Government Vaccine Injury Compensation Programme.

With the current Covid vaccines the manufacturers have again been completely protected. They have been granted immunity from prosecution. So too have the people who are administering the vaccines. If they botch your jab, you can't sue them, they are bulletproof. This is all utterly immoral and ridiculous imo. Example:

Pfizer’s UK boss refuses to explain why the business needs protection from legal action

Pfizer given protection from legal action over coronavirus vaccine by UK government

Everyone I know in my town (and church) is dead keen to get the vaccine (if they haven't already). 10% of the local population have now had a dose. So far just one person I know has had anything worse than the standard sore arm / fluey symptoms - and even he was better within a few hours. But everyone knows someone who has died of Covid.

It is to be totally expected that the older vulnerable demographic were "dead keen" (ironic choice of words!) to get vaccinated because they've had a year of brutal deliberate media scaremongering to condition them. They've been manipulated wickedly with figures and statistics that totally hide the true picture. They've been fed a figure of Covid Cases that is MASSIVELY understated and been given figures for deaths which are massively overstated (because they are deaths WITH Covid not caused BY Covid). So no surprise whatsoever that they flocked to get shots.

But all this posturing and debating can not ever change the unassailable fact that the vaccine programme is in essence a vaccine trial because no-one yet knows the long term effects of the vaccines. You simply can not run away from that fact. You only know that SHORT TERM there have been few serious adverse reactions, but as we know with drugs like Thalidomide it can take years before the harms are known and realised and recognised. Thus the prospect of getting vaccinated for Covid is nothing more than a gamble. It is an assessment of risks associated with catching the virus and the risks or serious Covid illness compared with the risks associated with the vaccines themselves.

However the TRUTH is that no-one is able to make an informed decision about those risks because:

1) They don't know the true figures associated with the virus because they've only been fed scaremongering carefully crafted and chosen statistics and

2) They have no idea what long term risks to their health the vaccines pose nor indeed the risks associated with the likely repeated and regular vaccination they will likely have.

So it's a gamble plain and simple, and people don't have the fact needed to make an informed decision.

Hence all those people getting the shots are blindly gambling with their health and most of that is predicated on nothing more than the psychological scaremongering they have been subjected to. It's wrong. Very wrong and wicked. Our health choices should never be manipulated and steered in such ways imo.

I feel for all those who are old and vulnerable and "at risk" because they are being forced to make these dire choices without the required information to be able to make them sensibly. They are having to simply rely on trust in the government and Pharma. Two entities that I personally have absolutely no trust in whatsoever esp the latter because they have a past track record of fraud, of bribing health officials and either concealing adverse trial data or falsifying it.

It would if anything be attempted murder to withhold the vaccine.

What is murder is to force an untested vaccine on anyone that does not want it.

 

[Cristo Rei]

But it's naïve to think that deaths would be attributable to the vaccine. No media outlet would be brave enough to suggest it for fear of being sued. And it's simply a fact that it takes ages, sometimes years to fight a case against Pharma to claim damages for being a vaccine injury victim. So any notion that any damage being done by the vaccines would immediately hit the headlines is simply naïve.

Remember, Thalidomide, was similarly revered. The public were told IT WAS TOTALLY SAFE but it took 4 YEARS before they finally realised it was disastrous. Between 1957 and 1962, thalidomide was sold in 46 countries under 65 different brand names, aggressively marketed by Chemie Gruenethal, the German pharmaceutical company who developed it. Thalidomide was taken off the market in summer of 1962 after mounting evidence placed increasing pressure on Grunenthal when scientists discovered that the drug damages the fetus in the first 60 days of pregnancy

It seems we have learned nothing from such past atrocities and blatant assaults on human health for the sake of Pharma profits.

Such disasters happen because the Pharma industry is not properly controlled. The tail wags the dog. Pharma controls the health industry.

They happen because capitalist profits trump health considerations and profits create powerful conglomerates who have massive lobbying power and who then become bulletproof.

Rather than curb the abilities of Pharma in this respect they instead just changed laws and legislation to make it impossible for anyone to sue vaccine companies. Yes, you heard that right. Laws are now in place that mean the public cannot sue vaccine manufacturers even if they harm you, permanently disable you or kill you. How sick is such a situation? Your only redress is via the Government Vaccine Injury Compensation Programme.

With the current Covid vaccines the manufacturers have again been completely protected. They have been granted immunity from prosecution. So too have the people who are administering the vaccines. If they botch your jab, you can't sue them, they are bulletproof. This is all utterly immoral and ridiculous imo. Example:

Pfizer’s UK boss refuses to explain why the business needs protection from legal action

Pfizer given protection from legal action over coronavirus vaccine by UK government





It is to be totally expected that the older vulnerable demographic were "dead keen" (ironic choice of words!) to get vaccinated because they've had a year of brutal deliberate media scaremongering to condition them. They've been manipulated wickedly with figures and statistics that totally hide the true picture. They've been fed a figure of Covid Cases that is MASSIVELY understated and been given figures for deaths which are massively overstated (because they are deaths WITH Covid not caused BY Covid). So no surprise whatsoever that they flocked to get shots.

But all this posturing and debating can not ever change the unassailable fact that the vaccine programme is in essence a vaccine trial because no-one yet knows the long term effects of the vaccines. You simply can not run away from that fact. You only know that SHORT TERM there have been few serious adverse reactions, but as we know with drugs like Thalidomide it can take years before the harms are known and realised and recognised. Thus the prospect of getting vaccinated for Covid is nothing more than a gamble. It is an assessment of risks associated with catching the virus and the risks or serious Covid illness compared with the risks associated with the vaccines themselves.

However the TRUTH is that no-one is able to make an informed decision about those risks because:

1) They don't know the true figures associated with the virus because they've only been fed scaremongering carefully crafted and chosen statistics and

2) They have no idea what long term risks to their health the vaccines pose nor indeed the risks associated with the likely repeated and regular vaccination they will likely have.

So it's a gamble plain and simple, and people don't have the fact needed to make an informed decision.

Hence all those people getting the shots are blindly gambling with their health and most of that is predicated on nothing more than the psychological scaremongering they have been subjected to. It's wrong. Very wrong and wicked. Our health choices should never be manipulated and steered in such ways imo.

I feel for all those who are old and vulnerable and "at risk" because they are being forced to make these dire choices without the required information to be able to make them sensibly. They are having to simply rely on trust in the government and Pharma. Two entities that I personally have absolutely no trust in whatsoever esp the latter because they have a past track record of fraud, of bribing health officials and either concealing adverse trial data or falsifying it.


What is murder is to force an untested vaccine on anyone that does not want it.

Man... What a confronting picture... It gave me goosebumps. It gave me watery eyes.
It made me angry. It made me sad. It made me nauseous. What have we become...

There are videos of people shaking uncontrollably after the vaccines.
They can't stop, doctors don't know what it is or what to do and their left like that.
One video has this shaking woman telling her story... Man, it made me cry. This world is so evil and wicked.

Im ashamed to be part of this society... Embarrassed to be part of this era...

 

[Deborah_]

Remember, Thalidomide, was similarly revered.

If you think nothing has changed since thalidomide, you are very poorly informed.

It seems we have learned nothing from such past atrocities and blatant assaults on human health for the sake of Pharma profits.

Well, actually we've learned quite a lot. Pharmaceutical products are far more rigorously tested now before being authorised for release, and we are far more cautious (possibly over-cautious) about giving any medication to pregnant women. Which is why nothing on the same scale as the thalidomide disaster has occurred in the course of my professional career.

(And it turns out that thalidomide is an unusually potent drug with some very strange effects on the body - the worst possible drug to be given to pregnant women. It's still used to treat certain forms of cancer, but of course if you take it you mustn't get pregnant!)

Although it's true that the long-term effects (over years) of the vaccine are by definition unknown, so too are the long-term effects of Covid infection (even in those who are asymptomatic in the acute stage) - and these are likely to be worse. So we're all gambling with our long-term health - but personally I'd go with the vaccine every time.

So it's a gamble plain and simple, and people don't have the fact needed to make an informed decision.

Well, I think we do. You are entitled to come to a different decision (and for some individuals, like a certain friend of mine who gets severe allergies, the risk-benefit calculation will be different), but our gamble is an educated one; it's not "blind".

How sick is such a situation? Your only redress is via the Government Vaccine Injury Compensation Programme.

Well, that's a matter of opinion. I don't think it's "sick" at all. It's the Government that has encouraged the companies to pull all the stops out to prepare a vaccine quickly, so why shouldn't the Government carry the responsibility? And there's a lot to be said in favour of compensation schemes, rather than making lawyers rich.

 

[Deborah_]

The data is from the CDC.

It's VAERS data from the CDC. As I've already explained, VAERS doesn't give you the information you're trying to get from it.

Now your using your subjective experience as an argument...
Didn't u say u were a retired doctor? Then u should know that your testimony is just that, an anecdotal testimony.
Im not sure if you're after sympathy but u showed no interest in my bad experience with drugs so I'm not really inclined to care much about your experience either...

U wanna hear mine... I know nobody who has died from covid, I know nobody that has even had covid.
Our hospitals are empty yet we're locked down, a city of 5 million people, because of 5 cases.

Well, you are exceptionally lucky, that's all I can say. I gave you my "anecdotal" testimony because you seem to think that yours is normative for the rest of the world. What makes you think I'm asking for sympathy? - I haven't been ill myself and now that I've had one dose of the vaccine I'm not likely to be. But the UK has been hit very hard by Covid, so we are probably more aware of it than you are.

I'm not commenting on the way that the Australian government has decided to handle the pandemic. Personally I think that making any vaccine mandatory is a bad idea, but that isn't happening in the UK so it's not really an issue here.

 

[Cristo Rei]

It's VAERS data from the CDC. As I've already explained, VAERS doesn't give you the information you're trying to get from it.

Yes it does... Anyone who died after testing positive for covid was put down as a covid death...
So its only fair to apply the same method here...

And to assume that not one of them is related is wishful thinking. Or maybe denial.

Well, you are exceptionally lucky, that's all I can say. I gave you my "anecdotal" testimony because you seem to think that yours is normative for the rest of the world. What makes you think I'm asking for sympathy? - I haven't been ill myself and now that I've had one dose of the vaccine I'm not likely to be. But the UK has been hit very hard by Covid, so we are probably more aware of it than you are.

I'm not commenting on the way that the Australian government has decided to handle the pandemic. Personally I think that making any vaccine mandatory is a bad idea, but that isn't happening in the UK so it's not really an issue here.

Is the UK really "hit hard by covid"... And the evidence of that??? Nowhere
Im sure I saw that the UK had less deaths last year than average, just like the rest of us... But anyway...

U still avoided my point...

Selling a dangerous product without any warnings is criminal... Its literally a criminal offense in every other industry
Running away from any liability is just evil beyond belief... No one gets away with such a criminal act

 

[Cristo Rei]

@Deborah_

When u see something like this what goes through your mind?

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10222740905605792

Is there any compassion or is the mind just trying to excuse it or ignore it?

 

[Dcopymope]

Hello,


I can understand the hesitancy to get a vaccine since the swine flu vaccine in the 1970's did not turn out so well.

With that being said those of use that you are all trying to convince that the vaccine is a bad thing there are things we need. Those things are legitimate research papers that talk about the vaccine and how bad it could be.

So the rules for this thread (I hope the mods like @Josho and others can help keep this thread on track) is that we want (I hope it is okay to put we) real research, not blogs, opinions, or theories that can't be proven. What is accepted is peer reviewed papers from Scientific journals, white papers with both having good credentials. Remember this is not about opinions but real scientific proof. If it is as bad as you all say it is then to find real scientific research should be quite easy.

Once again - No blog posts, no theories, no videos, no opinions just pure scientific research that the vaccine is bad.

They are finding new strains of this "virus" every damn day, as the article below points out for instance, showing five of them. Hundreds are discovered daily in fact. So, why don't you tell me why I shouldn't just put my faith in God to protect me instead of putting my faith in your Frankenstein voodoo juice "medicine"? Let us see some peer reviewed papers on that.

Link: New COVID variant with 5 mutations identified in California

 

[Whetstone]

If you think nothing has changed since thalidomide, you are very poorly informed.

Oh it hs changed and I mentioned it Where before the company that told everyone that Thalidomide was safe was subsequently sued, we have now changed the law totally to protect such companies from being sued no matter what harms they perpetrate. As I said, I think that is sick.

Pharmaceutical products are far more rigorously tested now before being authorised for release

Yet we have just given Emergency Usage Authorisation to a bunch of vaccines that:

1. Have not yet even finished their testing trials and
2 Whose results are based on an utterly tiny number of Covid cases (Pfizer 170, Moderna 200ish)

It's staggeringly crazy and risky and clearly there is far more going on here imo than just a virus and a vaccine.

Just to iterate this, the notion of vaccinating MILLIONS of people let alone billions, based on tiny Mickey Mouse trials involving just 200 cases of Covid is simply preposterous imho. Then consider what happens if say the vaccines significantly harm or kill say 1 person in every 50,000 vaccinated. At face value that seems like a small insignificant number but when you ramp up to global vaccination scale it's significant. That's 20 people killed in every million vaccinated. A small number but it sucks if you're one of the 20. The Pfizer vaccine trial used 41,000 people across the 2 groups. So it would have been entirely possible that they might not have had that 1 in 50,000 death during the trial. Even if they'd used 100,000 people they still might not have seen the 1 in 50,000 death due to simple mathematics and random distributions.

The notorious past example we've had all of this nonsense occurred in 2009 with the so-called Swine Flu pandemic that never was, but which also saw vaccines rushed out and foisted on the public. Most notably NHS staff were pressured to take the vaccines and many suffered life changing conditions as a result. Just awful. Articles say that the rate of serious adverse side effects was 1 in 16,000 people vaccinated.

Now before you rightly start shouting that in fact many millions of people have now had the various vaccines and we haven't seen tons of deaths, that is not my point. My point is that they DID NOT know this would be the case before they rolled out the vaccines because they'd only conducted tests with 41,000 people. That is simply not enough people to determine the safety.

So this leads to just 2 conclusion. Either:

1) They just took a monumental risk with public health, rolling out vaccines that had not been sufficiently tested or

2) They already had the vaccines before all this started and already knew they were safe but they couldn't tell the public that because of the public outcry that would occur. Obviously if the vaccines already existed then the virus must likewise have already existed, which then pretty much confirms it came out of a lab and is a bioweapon.

Either way was has occurred and what continues to occur is appalling. The public imho are clearly not being told the truth.

Although it's true that the long-term effects (over years) of the vaccine are by definition unknown, so too are the long-term effects of Covid infection (even in those who are asymptomatic in the acute stage)

You've confirmed there that the safety of the vaccines is not fully tested and that accordingly we are rolling out vaccines to millions of people who could subsequently be harmed. I thank you for that honesty. Worse still though, in conceding that we don't yet fully know the full characteristics of the virus (such a it's long term impacts) you underpin that we have created vaccines for a virus which we do not yet fully understand. That's like saying you've created a process for fixing a car without knowing what was wrong with the car in the first place ! Just ludicrous imo.

Well, I think we do. You are entitled to come to a different decision (and for some individuals, like a certain friend of mine who gets severe allergies, the risk-benefit calculation will be different), but our gamble is an educated one; it's not "blind".

It patently is not an informed decision. You've already admitted that you don't know what the long term impacts of the virus are so how canyou possibly assess that risk? We don't know the long term impacts of the vaccine. We don't know whether vaccination prevents subsequent transmission of the virus (it looks like it doesn't). We don't know whether the RNA vaccines will impact DNA (though some insist it will).
Neither do we know the true number of Covid cases that have occurred as we are not being told so equally we have no real clue what the death rate is or the survival rate. In fact just about all of the key pieces of information we need to make an informed decision are denied us so there is simply no way we can possibly make an informed decision.

The only decisions being made are out of pure and utter fear fuelled by a deliberate media scaremongering campaign.

 

[Gregory]

But I've personally witnessed a friend of mine who died from complications from covid... within weeks of coming out of the induced coma and recovering. But according to the state he died of multiple things other than covid. He was the store manager of my local Kroger...known the man for the past 20 years. Healthy as a horse normally. Getting older but still more than competent and capable at his job.
Covid destroyed his body...kidneys, lungs, heart, and nervous system...

But since he died at home...they claimed that he died of natural causes and not covid. Even though it was just three weeks after getting out of the hospital. He caught coronavirus at work but wasn't going to be able to go back after getting out of the hospital.
So that's why I say what I am saying...

And when medical systems are overwhelmed with coronavirus cases (as we have had several times here) and someone dies from not getting medical care because of the overloaded hospitals and clinics...
Something that is normally very treatable...what killed them then?

So where I am sure that some systems are inflating their numbers we see ours here under reporting the numbers... deliberately.

It is not that some systems inflate, they all inflate. They make money for every covid death reported. How do you think we got to 400+ thousands of deaths in 1 year? In fact take the total deaths reported from 2019 vs 2020 and you will find that the numbers are not that far apart. Now take the number of people that died from regular flu, way down from 2019. Take the number of people dying from heart attacks. Way down from 2019. Take the number of deaths from strokes. Way down from 2019. Do I have to connects the dots for you.

You are telling me something that I have not heard from the beginning. You are under reporting your death count from covid. You must be the only area in America that is doing that.

So one more time. Why are you under reporting covid deaths in your area?

 

[teamventure]

That's fake news about CDC, it has been fact checked,

That's the most naive and down right idiotic thing I've seen here.

I'm going to go ahead and say that your posts are false because I fact checked them myself. There you go.

 

[teamventure]

Yet people sell cars (which cause around 2000 deaths a year in the UK) and guns (which caused 19,000 deaths last year in the US). Why is it immoral to sell a vaccine but not immoral to sell a gun?

No-one claims that vaccines are totally safe; the point is that the vaccine is much less dangerous than the disease.

Not a fitting analogy. Your analogy would only be fitting if you said someone who bought a gun and shot themselves with it.
The only other way for that analogy to fit is to say that someone buys the vaccine but doesn't take the shot (like doesn't shoot themselves)

Your second point is false and history will proove it. The vaccinations are more dangerous than the disease.

 

[Rita]

I am pretty sure that this post won’t make any difference because my earlier post was totally ignored, or perhaps I am on ignore. Testimony seems to be irrelevant on this forum, I have already stated that I have witnessed first hand a covid outbreak, also stated that I have also witnessed 6 years of flu outbreaks in the same environment. Flu and covid are different. We have now lost 15 residents. Of course they are elderly, so that doesn’t count does it.
As Deborah has already stated , we all know people who have died, and many are younger than 70 years old.
It also looked at the data and the same agency has recorded deaths from vaccines in the past, so nothing new there. Vaccines come with risks , we know that, we are are of that - so it’s a mute argument to suggest that theses vaccine are any different to the rest.
What I do find interesting that online data seems to be frowned upon and questioned when it states deaths from covid itself, but seems to be completely viable when it is used to state how many have died from the vaccines. You either trust online data or you don’t, but you can’t use it to back up one argument and the reject it for another.
The reality is that at this moment of time there is no clear proof that the vaccine has caused the deaths, it’s speculations this point.
New Zealand has just locked down an area because of five cases.
People on the forum have already made up there minds, none of the posts make an ounce of difference. There are enough testimonies out there from people who have ended up in hospital or have lost husbands , sisters, brothers, their are testimonies from the hospital staff , but they must all be lying, I must be lying as to what I have personal witnessed. I cannot be trusted, I must be part of all the fake news, fake responses. When I hit a brick wall emotionally because of how quickly this virus took people , when normal flu season doesn’t impact in the same way. Must be a over reaction, right !!
I wish you well with your future travels Cristo
As I said, testimony doesn’t seem to mean anything. Rita

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Question number one, Is the COVID Jab truly a Vaccine ? I think not at all.
Why do they call such a Vaccine, answer me that anyone.

From what I can tell of the COVID Jab is that it is just only mainly something that is to be used for a out brake of COVID in a area, that may help some and that this Jab process may go on for years to come. not to mention we do not know the downside of such a so called COVID Jab will have down the track on a persons health, it all looks very bad to me and then there is agenda 21 that may be fitting in with all this, as for our hero Gates I would not trust such a one at all, looking into what I have found out about him, GM food is a horror story, Monsanto even Putin has kicked them out of Russia if I am correct. not to mention much more creepy things Gates is into that I have come across that I believe put such on par with someone like Hitler. I hope I am wrong about all this, but it all comes across as just so creepy to me. not to mention the out right lies that the MSM peddle is just the icing on the cake that seals it all for me as I have no faith in the MSM at all, as It is a outright disgrace that I can not stand them and there lies and filth mongering is way out of control not to mention they have no moral compass worthy of jack.

 

[JohnDB]

Bill Gates’ daughter jokes on social media about getting COVID-19 vaccine

One down...199,999,999 to go.

 

[Whetstone]

Response in 2 posts due to forum limitations

I am pretty sure that this post won’t make any difference because my earlier post was totally ignored, or perhaps I am on ignore. Testimony seems to be irrelevant on this forum, I have already stated that I have witnessed first hand a covid outbreak, also stated that I have also witnessed 6 years of flu outbreaks in the same environment. Flu and covid are different. We have now lost 15 residents. Of course they are elderly, so that doesn’t count does it.

You're right that it won't make any difference. The reason is simply that "testimony" is purely anecdotal, not scientific, not rigorous, and therefore of no practical value in debates about wide scale matters. That's why science requires studies to be conducted. That's why science requires reviews and systematic reviews and why material must be peer-reviewed. Tales of "my Aunty Mabel" are quaint but useless in terms of framing any kind of truth about the virus and the vaccines. I see this on forums everywhere I go and it's those who are in the health industry, like the UK NHS that can't get this basic precept through their heads. They are so ingrained and brainwashed by the Pharma controlled medical industry that they can not contemplate that there might be impropriety, that there might be medical fraud, that things they have been told from above might actually not be the truth. Their minds are jaded, biased, controlled.

This is never so more exemplified than by the yearly aggressive campaigns of fear used by the health services to flog their utterly useless Flu vaccines. Those in the health industry blindly trot out the mantra that they are great, your best form of protection, go get your shots. Meanwhile the shining golden beacon of truth sits there in the internationally respected Cochrane Library who did a systematic review of Flu Vaccines and concluded that:

"Injected influenza vaccines probably have a small protective effect against influenza and ILI (moderate-certainty evidence), as 71 people would need to be vaccinated to avoid one influenza case"

Vaccines to prevent influenza in healthy adults


This is why your "testimony" is of limited use. It's not any kind of sleight on you, its simply the understanding that the facts can only come from, and must come from proper independent studies that are peer reviewed. The health industry continues to peddle Flu vaccines despite this appalling efficacy because it makes them $billions. It's a pure financial business not a health service.

Vaccines come with risks , we know that, we are are of that - so it’s a mute argument to suggest that theses vaccine are any different to the rest.

These vaccines are completely different in nature to any that have come before. It is new technology. In fact they are not even vaccines at all. The term vaccine is being used because they know the public will accept it but there is no scientific definition of vaccine into which these products fit. They are genetic treatments pure and simple.

What I do find interesting that online data seems to be frowned upon and questioned when it states deaths from covid itself, but seems to be completely viable when it is used to state how many have died from the vaccines. You either trust online data or you don’t, but you can’t use it to back up one argument and the reject it for another.

I totally agree. Data is data and must stand on its own two feet. But we don't have that data. What we have been given is false data. They are not telling the public the true number of Covid Deaths. They have crafted and created a definition of a "Covid Death" that means they can include all manner of deaths in the count. Deaths not even caused by Covid but rather deaths that occurred where the person just happened to be positive for Covid. In the UK the authorities (Public Health England) actually instructed medical practitioners and coroners etc to effectively GUESS if a person died due to Covid based on any symptoms that were reported beforehand. Just let that sink in. People have died in the UK and HAVE NOT BEEN TESTED to see if they were positive for Covid. Public Health England instructed coroners to therefore make their best clinical judgement as to whether the death was due to Covid based on any previously reported symptoms. What are those typical symptoms? Fever, headache, sore throat, cough . . . . What are the typical symptoms of colds, ILIs, Flu? Fever, headache, sore throat, cough. It's an utter farce.

How can we possibly have a situation where people who have died and have NEVER BEEN TESTED for Covid, can possibly be chalked up as Covid Deaths?!!!

Lest you think I am in error or lying here is the link to the PHE instructions:

https://assets.publishing.service.g...l-certificates-of-cause-of-death-covid-19.pdf

and I quote:

"Medical practitioners are required to certify causes of death “to the best of their knowledge and belief”.
Without diagnostic proof, if appropriate and to avoid delay, medical practitioners can circle ‘2’ in the MCCD (“information from post-mortem may be available later”) or tick Box B on the reverse of the MCCD for ante-mortem investigations. For example, if before death the patient had symptoms typical of COVID-19 infection, but the test result has not been received, it would be satisfactory to give ‘COVID-19’ as the cause of death, tick Box B and then share the test result when it becomes available. In the circumstances of there being no swab, it is satisfactory to apply clinical judgement."

This is utterly farcical. The so-called "Covid Deaths" are nothing of the sort. They are a vastly inflated divisive number intended to make the pandemic look worse than it is.

 

[Whetstone]

The reality is that at this moment of time there is no clear proof that the vaccine has caused the deaths, it’s speculations this point.

And equally there was no clear proof that the virus killed all the people labelled as "Covid Deaths". As stated upthread, it took 4 years before Thalidomide was recognised for the horrific drug it was to pregnant women. It could equally be years before we find that RNA genetic products (I won't call them vaccines) have awful side effects requiring them to be banned or changed. That's why vaccine trials should take years not months.

People on the forum have already made up there minds, none of the posts make an ounce of difference. There are enough testimonies out there from people who have ended up in hospital or have lost husbands , sisters, brothers, their are testimonies from the hospital staff , but they must all be lying, I must be lying as to what I have personal witnessed. I cannot be trusted, I must be part of all the fake news, fake responses.

No this is just silly nonsense. Testimonies are worthless as already explained. The public need proper concrete figures not anecdotal testimonies of individual cases and the public are not being given the true and full information. It has nothing to do with trusting you or what you have witnessed. It has to do with simply acquiring the full facts which need to include:

- The FULL number of people who have now had Covid (which is countless millions)
- The FULL number of people who have died whose death was SPECIFICALLY CAUSED by Covid and nothing else
- The FULL number of people who have had Covid and not had any symptoms at all
- The FULL number of people who have had Covid and only had mild symptoms requiring no hospitalisation

There is also a need for the authorities to demonstrate to the scientific community the true existence of this virus by properly isolating it in professional virology terms.

When I hit a brick wall emotionally because of how quickly this virus took people , when normal flu season doesn’t impact in the same way. Must be a over reaction, right !!

No it's not over-reaction. It's always heart breaking to see people die and suffer. It's a natural reaction. But there is no place for emotion in scientific rigour. You've seen people die, but you personally have no idea what caused them to die because you are not a virologist and you haven't analysed the deceased. You've simply taken the authorities and health industry on its word and are parroting their mantra. That's in turn because you are affiliated with the industry. You blindly trust that industry despite the fact that it has been involved in huge fraud. Pfizer alone was the centre of the biggest ever fraud case settlement in medical history:

2009 - Justice Department Announces Largest Health Care Fraud Settlement in Its History

"American pharmaceutical giant Pfizer Inc. and its subsidiary Pharmacia & Upjohn Company Inc. (hereinafter together "Pfizer") have agreed to pay $2.3 billion, the largest health care fraud settlement in the history of the Department of Justice, to resolve criminal and civil liability arising from the illegal promotion of certain pharmaceutical products"

"In addition, Pfizer has agreed to pay $1 billion to resolve allegations under the civil False Claims Act that the company illegally promoted four drugs – Bextra; Geodon, an anti-psychotic drug; Zyvox, an antibiotic; and Lyrica, an anti-epileptic drug – and caused false claims to be submitted to government health care programs for uses that were not medically accepted indications and therefore not covered by those programs. The civil settlement also resolves allegations that Pfizer paid kickbacks to health care providers to induce them to prescribe these, as well as other, drugs. The federal share of the civil settlement is $668,514,830 and the state Medicaid share of the civil settlement is $331,485,170. This is the largest civil fraud settlement in history against a pharmaceutical company"

Justice Department Announces Largest Health Care Fraud Settlement in Its History


You trust this industry implicitly because you are a part of it. You are conditioned to think that way. Those in the industry who question it, who don't tow the party line lose their jobs and careers. It's understandable that health workers behave as they do as a result.

There are too many unknowns at present and no way should we be rolling out vaccines whose testing trials are not yet complete, or genetic RNA products that equally have not completed testing and have seen no long term testing.

 

[Enoch111]

It could equally be years before we find that RNA genetic products (I won't call them vaccines) have awful side effects requiring them to be banned or changed.

The FDA approved these products for EMERGENCY USE only. But everyone has ignored that and assumed that they are for regular use. And the damaging effects are already being reported as we speak.

BREAKING: UK gov’t says over 240 people in Britain died shortly after receiving COVID jab
The report included in its ancillary material the information that a total of 8 miscarriages have been reported
www.lifesitenews.com/news/breaking-uk-govt-says-over-240-people-in-britain-died-shortly-after-receiving-covid-jab

And now the CDC is adding insult to injury by claiming that there is no link between post-vaccination deaths and the so-called vaccines.

CDC, FDA, NIH, the Imperial College, etc. have all been lying through their teeth every day in order to deceive the general public about everything connected with the Wuhan virus. The are pulling *new strains* out of the air daily to keep up the fear-mongering and their COVID tyranny.

 

[Whetstone]

The latest batch of post vaccination deaths:


New York, 58yr old dies shortly after getting COVID-19 shot
US woman dies shortly after getting COVID-19 shot, vaccine not cause of death, says officials

A 33-year-old ASHA worker from Belagavi died Feb 3, vaccinated Jan 22.
Belagavi ASHA worker dies days after taking Covid-19 vaccine

A man in his 70s in Manhattan dies shortly after receiving vaccination
https://nypost.com/2021/02/07/elder...er-getting-covid-19-vaccine-at-javits-center/

Nebraska man in his 40s dies days after vaccination
Nebraska Man Dies Days After Receiving First Dose Of COVID Vaccine

CA woman, 78, suddenly dies after vaccination
https://nypost.com/2021/02/14/ca-woman-gets-covid-vaccine-then-suddenly-dies-of-something-else/


Same message in every case being given out, they don't suspect it was caused by the vaccines, "nothing to see here, move along"

Same consistent pattern emerging from the mounting list of deaths, heart issues.

 

[Whetstone]

It's extremely easy to make future predictions here.

There are millions and millions of people who have absolutely no intention whatsoever of getting vaccinated. Some 50% of the French population for a start according to polls.

Thus if this whole thing is not really about a virus and a vaccine, and is in fact a more sinister agenda to get people to have whatever is in those "vaccines" then it is totally predictable that they will seek to walk all over the Nuremberg Code and long standing freedoms and rights to try and create and push through legislation to mandate vaccinations.

In order to do that they would first have to manufacture dire circumstances to try and justify it.

That in turn means they will invent or deploy a really nasty deadly version of Covid that kills far more people than the original.

So all we need to watch for is that announcement of such a new and deadly variant of the virus. And then watch for the moves to mandate vaccination.

Thereby shall we know that the entire thing is an orchestrated assault on humanity imo. What we do at that point I do not know.

 

[Deborah_]

"testimony" is purely anecdotal, not scientific, not rigorous, and therefore of no practical value in debates about wide scale matters. That's why science requires studies to be conducted. That's why science requires reviews and systematic reviews and why material must be peer-reviewed. Tales of "my Aunty Mabel" are quaint but useless in terms of framing any kind of truth about the virus and the vaccines.

And yet all you can give in support of your position is anecdotal evidence:

The latest batch of post vaccination deaths:


New York, 58yr old dies shortly after getting COVID-19 shot
US woman dies shortly after getting COVID-19 shot, vaccine not cause of death, says officials

A 33-year-old ASHA worker from Belagavi died Feb 3, vaccinated Jan 22.
Belagavi ASHA worker dies days after taking Covid-19 vaccine

A man in his 70s in Manhattan dies shortly after receiving vaccination
https://nypost.com/2021/02/07/elder...er-getting-covid-19-vaccine-at-javits-center/

Nebraska man in his 40s dies days after vaccination
Nebraska Man Dies Days After Receiving First Dose Of COVID Vaccine

CA woman, 78, suddenly dies after vaccination
https://nypost.com/2021/02/14/ca-woman-gets-covid-vaccine-then-suddenly-dies-of-something-else/


Same message in every case being given out, they don't suspect it was caused by the vaccines, "nothing to see here, move along"

Same consistent pattern emerging from the mounting list of deaths, heart issues.

What consistent pattern? Some have died on the day of the vaccination, some a few days later, one 12 days later... And it's a handful of random deaths out of millions of vaccinees, which you would expect to happen anyway because people die suddenly and unexpectedly all the time. You can't blame the vaccine until you know the cause of death, but that requires a post-mortem. I remember one well-publicised case (years ago now) of a teenager who collapsed and died within an hour or two of receiving the HPV vaccine - but the cause of death turned out to be an unsuspected large tumour in her chest. Pure coincidence. When the VAERS data eventually gets analysed, most of it gets thrown out for this reason.