For free will believers out there

[Ronald Nolette]

There has been what once was a very intense, lively and even heated debate on "Calvinism vs. Armeniaism" It has devolved into name calling which is sad and people outright telling untruths.

But a side point for which I am starting this thread for is this;

For those who believe that unsaved man has free will to freely choose God or not, I ask you this.

What about the tens of billions who have lived and died and never once even had a chance to hear the name Jesus even once? The bible celarly teaches that aprt from faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus for ones sin, one is lost, what about all those who unever even had a chance to "exercise" this supposed free will?

They never had a chance to accept or reject christ even once! Before you spout how they could be saved by their conscience, let me remind you that in the same book (Romans) it say s no one is righteous and no one seeks after God!

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

All have sinned and without trusting in the payment for ones sin they are lost. Unless you are promoting two gospels. The o gospel of Jesus for those who have had a chance to hear the gospel and another gospel of salvation for those who never hear.

And if that were true, like A B Simpson from the CMA wrote in the 1800's in the book "Missionary Messages"- that if the unsaved can be saved by some way apart form the hearing and believing in the gospel as it says in Romans 10, the church is a fool for sending missionaries all over the world, for once they have heard the gospel, they are now responsible to the gospel.

If those who have no tyet heard the gospel can be saved apart from the gospel- then the church would do better taking those billions it spends yearly on missions and use them for another reason. But no ! That is not the case. These are people who for generations have never hasd the witness of the gospel in their lands and have died without once getting a chance to exercise that "free will". does that make God the monster you think I make him to be or what?

Serious respondents only.

 

[justbyfaith]

There has been what once was a very intense, lively and even heated debate on "Calvinism vs. Armeniaism" It has devolved into name calling which is sad and people outright telling untruths.

I just want to mention that while I started that thread, I am not one of the people that personally devolved into name-calling. For I make it a point not to do that even when I am tempted to do so.

For those who believe that unsaved man has free will to freely choose God or not, I ask you this.

What about the tens of billions who have lived and died and never once even had a chance to hear the name Jesus even once? The bible celarly teaches that aprt from faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus for ones sin, one is lost, what about all those who unever even had a chance to "exercise" this supposed free will?

Those who never hear the gospel in this life will receive an opportunity at their GWT judgment to receive Christ.

Those who had an opportunity in this life will not get a second chance if they rejected Jesus in this life.

All have sinned and without trusting in the payment for ones sin they are lost. Unless you are promoting two gospels. The one gospel of Jesus for those who have had a chance to hear the gospel and another gospel of salvation for those who never hear.

It is the same gospel that we preach to people in this world that will be preached to those who never heard at their GWT judgment.

You may ask, why then do we preach the gospel in this world, if in the case that they never hear, they will be given an opportunity at their GWT judgment to receive Christ?

There is the issue of rewards for things that we do in this life. Also, so that Jesus might suffer less in His crucifixion, some were predestined to receive salvation earlier in life so that Jesus might have less sins to pay for. For when they genuinely receive Christ, their life is changed from that point forward. So, those who receive Christ early in life do not have as much of a load to lay on Christ's shoulders because they will sin less in life and if they be redeemed, it is less sin that is laid upon Christ's shoulders; in order that He might be able to adequately endure paying for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6).

 

[Nancy]

Hi Ronald,
There have been so many threads on this very controversial subject, and everyone of them end up the same with name calling and nastiness. I include myself in that as, I too have come back in kind to some
It used to make me wonder about those who might never hear the Gospel and, I came up with a couple scriptures that might speak to this:

Matthew 24:14
"And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

Romans 1:19-20
"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."

Revelation
"Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people. And he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

JMO bro.

 

[amigo de christo]

Hi Ronald,
There have been so many threads on this very controversial subject, and everyone of them end up the same with name calling and nastiness. I include myself in that as, I too have come back in kind to some
It used to make me wonder about those who might never hear the Gospel and, I came up with a couple scriptures that might speak to this:

Matthew 24:14
"And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

Romans 1:19-20
"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."

Revelation
"Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people. And he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

JMO bro.

There you go dear sister . This is spot on right . SEE , GOD really does give the folks a chance . JESUS even said
He wont return TILL the gospel has been published , sounded out to all nations . That does show us GOD desired none to perish .
In fact , let us look at what GOD says in the prophets .
WHY will ye die , return to me .
It is not My desire that the wicked PERISH , but rather they he repents and comes to GOD .
Those are good scrips sister . When anyone tries and says what if or what about , YOU show them those scrips .
If one comes and says but what about one who is on an island or etc , YOU SHOW them these scrips .
Truth is , we keep it simple . I dont need to know it all , JUST HE WHO KNOWS all .
ALL i need to know is , ONLY JESUS saves and if one rejects HIM , they will be damned . ITs all we need to know .
Just focus on Saving the folks and let GOD be GOD with anything else . Now let us praise the glorious LORD .
I do not concern myself in matters to high for me . I keep it simple . just focus oN JESUS and learn our bibles well .
AND point to HE as the ONLY savoir . AND love all HIS sayings , all biblical doctrine .
From every warning to every promise its all for the good of the lambs that we simply believe and take heed . FOR the WORD
of GOD always works good to those who hear and do .

 

[Nancy]

There you go dear sister . This is spot on right . SEE , GOD really does give the folks a chance . JESUS even said
He wont return TILL the gospel has been published , sounded out to all nations . That does show us GOD desired none to perish .
In fact , let us look at what GOD says in the prophets .
WHY will ye die , return to me .
It is not My desire that the wicked PERISH , but rather they he repents and comes to GOD .
Those are good scrips sister . When anyone tries and says what if or what about , YOU show them those scrips .
If one comes and says but what about one who is on an island or etc , YOU SHOW them these scrips .
Truth is , we keep it simple . I dont need to know it all , JUST HE WHO KNOWS all .
ALL i need to know is , ONLY JESUS saves and if one rejects HIM , they will be damned . ITs all we need to know .
Just focus on Saving the folks and let GOD be GOD with anything else . Now let us praise the glorious LORD .
I do not concern myself in matters to high for me . I keep it simple . just focus oN JESUS and learn our bibles well .
AND point to HE as the ONLY savoir . AND love all HIS sayings , all biblical doctrine .
From every warning to every promise its all for the good of the lambs that we simply believe and take heed . FOR the WORD
of GOD always works good to those who hear and do .

Yes bro, good scrips and great post! We don't NEED to know everything...like you said, as long as we know The Knower! Amen.
Catch you on here later!
In His Name,
nancy

 

[Renniks]

What about the tens of billions who have lived and died and never once even had a chance to hear the name Jesus even once? The bible celarly teaches that aprt from faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus for ones sin, one is lost, what about all those who unever even had a chance to "exercise" this supposed free will?

Did Abraham ever hear Jesus name? Was Abraham saved by some other gospel?

 

[amigo de christo]

Did Abraham ever hear Jesus name? Was Abraham saved by some other gospel?

Abraham SAW My day , HE saw it and HE rejoiced . The gospel as even paul and others said , Was preached to abraham .
HE KNEW . HE KNEW a savoir was coming . YES INDEED . Abraham rejoiced to see my DAY .
and the jews said but you are not yet even fifty years old and how can you say ................
AND I LOVE what JESUS says next . BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS ...............I AM .
and believe me , they knew what he meant by that . THEY knew what the title I AM meant . THEY had read moses .
THEY just didnt really heed MOSES or the prophets . HAD they , they would not have condemned the very one they all spoke of .
NOW LEAP UP and PRAISE THE LORD .

 

[Renniks]

HE KNEW . HE KNEW a savoir was coming . YES INDEED .

Yes he did. But he never heard the gospel in the way we do, yet he was saved by faith.

 

[amigo de christo]

Yes he did. But he never heard the gospel in the way we do, yet he was saved by faith.

Yes , they all LOOKED for HIS coming , first coming . We now look forward to His second coming .
Let the LORD be praised my friends .

 

[quietthinker]

There has been what once was a very intense, lively and even heated debate on "Calvinism vs. Armeniaism" It has devolved into name calling which is sad and people outright telling untruths.

But a side point for which I am starting this thread for is this;

For those who believe that unsaved man has free will to freely choose God or not, I ask you this.

What about the tens of billions who have lived and died and never once even had a chance to hear the name Jesus even once? The bible celarly teaches that aprt from faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus for ones sin, one is lost, what about all those who unever even had a chance to "exercise" this supposed free will?

They never had a chance to accept or reject christ even once! Before you spout how they could be saved by their conscience, let me remind you that in the same book (Romans) it say s no one is righteous and no one seeks after God!

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

All have sinned and without trusting in the payment for ones sin they are lost. Unless you are promoting two gospels. The o gospel of Jesus for those who have had a chance to hear the gospel and another gospel of salvation for those who never hear.

And if that were true, like A B Simpson from the CMA wrote in the 1800's in the book "Missionary Messages"- that if the unsaved can be saved by some way apart form the hearing and believing in the gospel as it says in Romans 10, the church is a fool for sending missionaries all over the world, for once they have heard the gospel, they are now responsible to the gospel.

If those who have no tyet heard the gospel can be saved apart from the gospel- then the church would do better taking those billions it spends yearly on missions and use them for another reason. But no ! That is not the case. These are people who for generations have never hasd the witness of the gospel in their lands and have died without once getting a chance to exercise that "free will". does that make God the monster you think I make him to be or what?

Serious respondents only.

The primary problem with your point of view is the idea that one is saved by subscribing to a certain theology....ie, one must believe a certain thing cognitively for God's salvation to be effective.

It highlights a view of God that is tight opposed to generous....it highlights the self importance of the one thinking they can limit God's love for humanity to their particular view.......it gives reason to the world to reject the generosity and kindness of God......it highlights that human logic is relied on and superimposed onto God......it's focus is on the temporal evidenced by where the emphasis is and be assured, the reality is; many who are last will be first and those who are feel to be first will be last!

 

[DNB]

The primary problem with your point of view is the idea that one is saved by subscribing to a certain theology....ie, one must believe a certain thing cognitively for God's salvation to be effective.

It highlights a view of God that is tight opposed to generous....it highlights the self importance of the one thinking they can limit God's love for humanity to their particular view.......it gives reason to the world to reject the generosity and kindness of God......it highlights that human logic is relied on and superimposed onto God......it's focus is on the temporal evidenced by where the emphasis is and be assured, the reality is; many who are last will be first and those who are feel to be first will be last!

Yes, that is true to some degree, but we also understand that Jesus' death on the cross was not a superfluous, or impotent act, that has a subjective efficacy in regard to man's salvation. Christ did not die in vain.

Although I do agree that it seems highly implausible, and thus entirely dubious, that every soul that has ever lived, has heard the salvific Gospel of Christ. This by no means can be contested. Therefore, I do concur that in some manner or another, God may hold some by a different standard than others (eg: those who teach will be scrutinized by more austere measures).

I'm almost of the position that children may get a free heavenly ticket, if their death occurs before the age of accountability (I have no idea what that age is)? For Christ referred to their innate innocence, admonishing adults to be as them. I am not dogmatic about this, but merely can appreciate the lack of responsibility that they fundamentally must have, in regard to their premature demise (not born-again).

Romans 2:12-16
2:12. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13. for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15. in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16. on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Did Abraham ever hear Jesus name? Was Abraham saved by some other gospel?

Are you really trying to convince me that you are that benighted? You are convincing me!

But we are talking about teh church age where Jesus commanded the gospel to go out in order for men to be saved.

But you know what I am talking about and are just being intentionally murky to cloud the issue.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The primary problem with your point of view is the idea that one is saved by subscribing to a certain theology....ie, one must believe a certain thing cognitively for God's salvation to be effective.

It highlights a view of God that is tight opposed to generous....it highlights the self importance of the one thinking they can limit God's love for humanity to their particular view.......it gives reason to the world to reject the generosity and kindness of God......it highlights that human logic is relied on and superimposed onto God......it's focus is on the temporal evidenced by where the emphasis is and be assured, the reality is; many who are last will be first and those who are feel to be first will be last!

So you reject what SCripture says is necessary for salvation then?

 

[quietthinker]

So you reject what SCripture says is necessary for salvation then?

No, I do not hold to your interpretation of the scriptures.....and why would you think that I reject what the scripture says?

Incidentally, I'm planning on seeing Noah and Abraham along with all those described in Hebrews 11 and those who enquired earnestly for the salvation of which they wrote to whom it was revealed they were serving future generations.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No, I do not hold to your interpretation of the scriptures.....and why would you think that I reject what the scripture says?

Incidentally, I'm planning on seeing Noah and Abraham along with all those described in Hebrews 11 and those who enquired earnestly for the salvation of which they wrote to whom it was revealed they were serving future generations.

Same as I. but if you do not believe that since Pentecost trusting in the death and resurrecction of Jesus for you rsin is the only method of salvation, then you do reject teh Scriptures.

Acts 4, Romans 10, Apart from receiving Christ, Gods Word says no one can be saved!

 

[quietthinker]

Same as I. but if you do not believe that since Pentecost trusting in the death and resurrecction of Jesus for you rsin is the only method of salvation, then you do reject teh Scriptures.

Acts 4, Romans 10, Apart from receiving Christ, Gods Word says no one can be saved!

I think you underestimate God's love for humanity. Many have come and gone in the cultures around the world since Jesus walked our dusty streets that have never heard of the salvation God has provided....the which we are privileged to understand. God has not abandoned them as might be supposed. His kindness extends to all of Adams progeny. I am persuaded that God woos all peoples irrespective of when they lived or their reality.....what the mechanics of that is I do not know.

Those who respond will learn things which will utterly amaze them.....as we all will be.

Some will ask Jesus 'what are those wounds in your hands and he will reply, they are those where I was wounded in the house of my friends' Zechariah 13:6

 

[Michiah-Imla]

What about the tens of billions who have lived and died and never once even had a chance to hear the name Jesus even once?

You do not know this to be the case.

And even if this is so, the Lord can preach the gospel to them that died never hearing of the gospel in their lifetime on earth:

1 Peter 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

[ I’m not interested in the free will vs no free will debate; both sides have scriptures to support their case; but I prefer to exercise moderation instead of the extremism that tends to cause division in these matters]

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Did Abraham ever hear Jesus name?

Yes he did.

When this happened:

1 Peter 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

 

[quietthinker]

God's Salvation has been in place before the foundation of the world the scripture tells us. The unfolding of this in our timeline does not mean that before its unfolding it was not in place. It also means that those before Jesus' incarnation are saved by the same generosity as we have a small window into.

We have learned how that unfolded after the fact so to speak.....they will learn of its details and wonder after their resurrection.

 

[Renniks]

Are you really trying to convince me that you are that benighted? You are convincing me!

But we are talking about teh church age where Jesus commanded the gospel to go out in order for men to be saved.

But you know what I am talking about and are just being intentionally murky to cloud the issue.

It's not clouding the issue. It's explaining that being saved BY Jesus doesn't always mean knowing about everything Jesus did.