For free will believers out there

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

NO!

God gives us faith and we learn to love HIm. People do not come to christ filled with th eownder of His love=- that comes after!

No there is no preaching of the gospel after people are resurrected. Either the first resurrection of the faithful or the second resurrection of the lost!

Well I think those who exercised faith in ancient hebrew times such as Noah, Abraham, etc will be resurrected and learn more about the scriptures than what they had when they lived on earth before they died. So I'm going to disagree with you.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Okay. I suppose then that this discussion is over and done with.

Maybe go here:

A Christian who deny Jesus is God in Flesh

You continue to deny Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God that The True God sent to the world of mankind and I'll continue to exercise faith that The True God sent his Only Begotten Son of God to the world of mankind.

 

[DNB]

I agree that god had different dispensations and that teh object of faith in those past dispensations was different than today! The name Jesus was not revealed until HIs birth!

But since the church age, there is only one means men must be saved- and that is to trust in the death and resurrection of Jesus for their sin. Without that- they caannot be saved. Romans 10 makes that clear as well.
I agree with all teh attributes you list- but totally disagree with universal salvation since the REsurrection. Jesus even said that is not true and that contradicts teh clear teaching of Scripture.

Oh, sorry RN, I was not espousing universalism at all - I believe in both heaven and hell, and that both are eternal, just for the record.
My comment about 'the saviour of all men' or 'catalyst behinds all men's redemption', assuming that it was this statement that caused the confusion, was merely meant to say that men individually, do not have different saviours, there is only one (hence, he is the saviour of all men). ...but, he is the saviour only for those who recognize their need for salvation.

Thus, as you said, there is no other means towards absolution of one's sins, except via faith in Jesus Christ's lordship and Messiahship. So that all the others who are trying to emphasize God's love and mercy as grounds to circumvent the effort and significance Christ's death on the cross, are verging on heresy and blasphemy.

 

[justbyfaith]

You continue to deny Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God that The True God sent to the world of mankind and I'll continue to exercise faith that The True God sent his Only Begotten Son of God to the world of mankind.

No; you are the one who is denying that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God; for if He is the only begotten Son of God He is "The everlasting Father" (Isaiah 9:6).

 

[justbyfaith]

Oh, sorry RN, I was not espousing universalism at all - I believe in both heaven and hell, and that both are eternal, just for the record.
My comment about 'the saviour of all men' or 'catalyst behinds all men's redemption', assuming that it was this statement that caused the confusion, was merely meant to say that men individually, do not have different saviours, there is only one. And, he is the saviour only for those who recognize their need for salvation.

Thus, as you said, there is no other means towards absolution of one's sins, except via faith in Jesus Christ's lordship and Messiahship. So that all the others who are trying to emphasize God's love and mercy as grounds to circumvent the effort and significance Christ's death on the cross, are verging on heresy and blasphemy.

You believe in an eternal hell and yet you do not believe that Jesus is the infinite God.

How did Jesus, as a finite being, manage to pay for the sins of the whole world then (1 John 2:2)?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

No; you are the one who is denying that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God; for if He is the only begotten Son of God He is "The everlasting Father" (Isaiah 9:6).

I'm not going to continue discussing this on this post and the post where it is discussed I don't agree with anything you have to say about it and I know you don't agree with me. So give it a rest Justbyfaith.

 

[justbyfaith]

I'm not going to continue discussing this on this post and the post where it is discussed I don't agree with anything you have to say about it and I know you don't agree with me. So give it a rest Justbyfaith.

Alright; then give it a rest @BARNEY BRIGHT.

I know that I can say before the Lord that I have preached the truth to you and that therefore your blood is on your own head and no longer on mine.

 

[DNB]

You believe in an eternal hell and yet you do not believe that Jesus is the infinite God.

How did Jesus, as a finite being, manage to pay for the sins of the whole world then (1 John 2:2)?

Where there is no law, there is no sin. Condemnation is at the Father's discretion. You have a delinquent understanding of expiation from sin. If it were sufficient for bulls and goats to absolve the sins of all the Israelites (Yom Kippur), then clearly God's propitiation is not based on quantifying the sins of men, but abrogating a Law that deemed men guilty. Christ's death ended the Law of guilt and penalty - faith supersedes justice.
Your soteriology, ...and not to mention your theology, are utterly deficient and perverted.
BTW, was there gold dust on your computer when you wrote your post (yes, you freak me out half the time)?

 

[justbyfaith]

BTW, was there gold dust on your computer when you wrote your post (yes, you freak me out half the time)?

No. That usually appears on the pages of my Bible, to point me to something that the Lord might want to say to me.

 

[justbyfaith]

The very word "propitiation" means "appeasement of wrath".

The following passage indicates that Christ suffered and died as a payment for the penalty of our sins.

1Ti 2:5, For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6, Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Jesus went and preached unto the dead before his resurrection. This was a one time happening.

Hi Michiah-Imla,
The belief that Jesus preached to the dead before His resurrection is not based on sound doctrine. A misinterpretation of this passage of Scripture by Roman Catholic supporters of the false doctrine of purgatory leads many down a blind alley.
1Pe 3:18-20 For Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (19) By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

I hold to this interpretation here copied from Matthew Henry's Commentary:

1. For the explication of this we may notice,
(1.) The preacher - Christ Jesus, who has interested himself in the affairs of the church and of the world ever since he was first promised to Adam, Gen_3:15. He went, not by a local motion, but by special operation, as God is frequently said to move, Gen_11:5; Hos_5:15; Mic_1:3. He went and preached, by his Spirit striving with them, and inspiring and enabling Enoch and Noah to plead with them, and preach righteousness to them, as 2Pe_2:5.
(2.) The hearers. Because they were dead and disembodied when the apostle speaks of them, therefore he properly calls them spirits now in prison; not that they were in prison when Christ preached to them, as the vulgar Latin translation and the popish expositors pretend.
(3.) The sin of these people: They were disobedient, that is, rebellious, unpersuadable, and unbelieving, as the word signifies; this their sin is aggravated from the patience and long-suffering of God (which once waited upon them for 120 years together), while Noah was preparing the ark, and by that, as well as by his preaching, giving them fair warning of what was coming upon them.
(4.) The event of all: Their bodies were drowned, and their spirits cast into hell, which is called a prison (Mat_5:25; 2Pe_2:4, 2Pe_2:5); but Noah and his family, who believed and were obedient, were saved in the ark.

 

[Enoch111]

The belief that Jesus preached to the dead before His resurrection is not based on sound doctrine.

Since it is written in Scripture that Christ preached to the spirits in prison while He was in Hades for three days and three nights, it is more than *sound doctrine*. That is divine revelation. The spirits in prison could include all who were in Hades at that time, since even the OT saints were in a virtual prison until the resurrection of Christ. "Preached to the dead" is misleading since all souls and spirits are very much alive after death. It is only the body that dies.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

I hold to this interpretation here copied from Matthew Henry's Commentary

I hold to what the scriptures teach within themselves:

Job 3:11,13,17-19
[11] Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly? [13] For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest, [17] There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest. [18] There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor. [19] The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.

All who died in the Old Testament were in the place Job described inspired by the Spirit of God.

Messiahs purpose, as prophesied here:

Isaiah 42:6-7
[6] I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; [7] To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Zechariah 9:11
As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

Was to bring out these prisoners (all the dead in Old Testament who will believe the gospel when Messiah preached to them).

And here the scriptures specifically detail that this happened before Christ went up to heaven:

1 Peter 3:18-20
[18] For Christ... [19] ...preached unto the spirits in prison; [20] Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

And to be clear, I do not believe that Christ is still preaching to the dead today, nor do I believe in purgatory, nor am I a Catholic.

All the living after his resurrection must hear the gospel before the end comes:

Matthew 24:14
[14] And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

[liafailrock]

Are you implying universal salvation then?

No, rather a universal chance.

this is not soteriological

Why? It takes place in the future and they receive His Spirit. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he is none of theirs.

So you believe that after death people who never heard get a shot at hearing and accepting? Despite the Bible declaring that after we die comes the execution of our sentience (guilt or innocence)

Yes. It's their first chance so how can they be judged based on no previous choice? The outline of God's redemptive plan is in the feast days. Passover/Unleavened Bread the death and work of Christ for sin. Pentecost, the firstfruits (the church). Trumpets-Atonement and Tabernacles Christ second coming to establish the Kingdom in which the church rules and reigns and those living then can become part of God's family and lastly, the Last Great Day aka Great White Throne judgment. People here are raised to life and given their chance. Notice the books are opened (the bible) and the book of life. Whoever was not written in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire to be destroyed and perish. Judgement is not sentencing (but culminates in that). Right now the church is being judged, then the nations and finally the rest who are resurrected. But even in the Great White Throne Judgment Jesus is calling out to those to believe in Him as shown in the type (see John 7:37). So, why the gospel now being preached? To gather in those who are supposed to rule and reign with Christ, and to pronounce the coming Kingdom of God for people to hear. After all, it is more blessed to be part of the first resurrection. That's in Spirit. The rest are physically, and can die (a second death) but not all will.

 

[Truther]

Actually it is per Romans 10:

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Water Baptism comes after one is already saved.

Remember context. Peter is talking to jews who saw and heard of Jesus Acts is more a history book than a book where we can formulate church doctrine.

Aaahh.

An Acts skipper in action.

I saw that.

 

[Behold]

Right. And ALL who reject Christ and do not believe will not be saved and the wrath of God abides in them.

Well, the wrath abides ON them, if they are a Christ Rejector.

Here is something interesting for you..

The reason a person goes to hell, is because they chose to go by rejecting Christ

A lot of believers think you go to hell for a lifetime of sinning, but actually you go to hell then later the lake of fire, for just one Sin.
Its the unpardonable sin = Christ Rejection.

Its the sin of not being born again, that happens because of UNBELIEF, or Christ Rejection.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

John 3:16

"whosoever"......is ALL the world.
That is God calling ALL the world to the Cross, and "whosoever" will believe, shall be saved.

= Whosoever, is everyone.

Its this verse... "ALL that call on the name of The Lord, shall be saved".

Its this verse.....

"to as MANY as believed, God gave them power to become.....the Son's of God".

Christ said.....>"if i be lifted up (on the Cross) i will Draw ALL MEN"".

See that "All"? = That means "all".

And who is the All? Its John 3:16....>>"whosoever will believe".

Jesus said : "Go into all the WORLD and preach the Gospel TO ALL."

Jesus didnt say....>"only preach to the predestined elect">

The CROSS OF CHRIST is planted in the WORLD because the Savior bleeding from The Cross ... His Blood, is being given to "ALL who will come",= SALVATION.

Thats a worldwide and universal OFFER.

"If I be lifted up, i will draw ALL MEN"..

All means ALL.

I have no problem with any of this, with the exception, that in Greek , all has 2 constructions. One means every or all and the other construct means all of a particular group. (pas v. pantos)

But many humans never hear Jesus lifted up. that is simple fact.

Also there is the general call of the gospel (Jesus being lifted up) and the inner call which only the elect hear and respond to.

also you will notice a difference Those that the Father draw, come to Jesus and they will not be cast out! When Jesus draws all men (not as intense as the Fathers draw) who will draw men. The Fathers call is irresistible while the sones call is the general issuing of the gospel.

As Paul said:

2 Corinthians 2:16
To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

Yes Jesus blood is for all who will come. 100% true! But the who will come and how they come is the issue.

Jesus blood is enough to save all mankind, but all mankind does not get saved.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

nope, he made us all, and Matthew 5:43 "Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy."
Matthew 5:44 "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;"
Matthew 5:45 "That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."
Matthew 5:46 "For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?"
Matthew 5:47 "And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?"
Matthew 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

now, before you became a child of God, no one else can be a child of God? that's sounds a little selfish to me.

and that takes me right back to "WHOSOEVER".

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

Talking to jews hear in the time of transition from the law to Grace! He came and was announcing His Messiahship to Israel.
And whosoever is an indefinite term which has nothing to do with free will or election. It is a simple statment that says "anyone who does A, gets B".

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Lol, so how long you've been saved has something to do with how much you know?
I don't think so.
My Bible tells me that men are without excuse because of what? I'm sure you know this one. Being saved for 46 years and all.

When you apologize from the last thread for intentionally lying abut "my beliefs" I will bother with you again. Otherwise- NO! I am not interested in your juvenile games.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The book the bible is for the purpose of educating us re God's character. It is not for the purpose of using it to support a 'scene' where its members quote left and right and feel justified in their pride of being able to do so. Satan can quote better than any.

Do you not understand that confessing Jesus is not about saying the words 'I believe in Jesus'?.....it is no more believing in Jesus than saying you will tell the truth by putting your hand on the bible and swearing to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

The questions you ask are because you do not understand God's character. If you did the purposes of Jesus and the scripture would be clear.

And your statements are just empty arrogant bloviating from one who knows nothing of me but presumes they do!

The bible is th eWord of God. Just because Satan can quote it does not make th ebible less true!

And I have never taught easy believism. I know that believing in Christ is far far far far more than mouthing words.

I ask no questions. I know th egeneral purposes of God. apart from HIs Word we know nothing of His love, His holiness, His righteousness, and Glory.