Five reasons why you aren't a "true" Christian - Are you toast?

[St. SteVen]

Answer the questions with YES or NO.
20 points for each question answered with YES. Score 100 points or you are toast.
Or at least you will have a TO DO list to work on.

1) You have the right doctrine and can prove it. - YES or NO?
2) You read your Bible and prayer for one hour every day. - YES or NO?
3) You are winning souls for Christ every week. - YES or NO?
4) You never miss a church service. - YES or NO?
5) You give financially to the church WAY beyond your means. - YES or NO?

20 points for each question answered with YES. Score 100 points or you are toast.
Or at least you will have a TO DO list to work on.

How did you do? Are these the right questions?

Five reasons why you aren't a "true" Christian - Are you toast?​

Even though I have been upfront that this topic is a spoof on "true" Christianity,
No one (as I recall) has given these questions a hard look, or re-evaluated them.
Let's take a look now.

1) You have the right doctrine and can prove it. - YES or NO?
Obviously, this describes a "Christian" who is at odds with everyone outside of their little tribe.
Is that what it means to be a "true" Christian?

2) You read your Bible and pray for one hour every day. - YES or NO?
While these would be a good practice for someone who had the time,
it is a ridiculous expectation to saddle a believer with.
Is that what it means to be a "true" Christian?

3) You are winning souls for Christ every week. - YES or NO?
While it is good for us to be open with people about our faith,
soul-winning quotas are another ridiculous expectation to saddle a believer with.
Is that what it means to be a "true" Christian?

4) You never miss a church service. - YES or NO?
Once again, does church attendance prove you are better than others?
Is that what it means to be a "true" Christian?

5) You give financially to the church WAY beyond your means. - YES or NO?
Again, While this would be a good practice, it is not the measure of a "true" Christian?

What are your thoughts?

[

 

[GodsGrace]

Paul says that the way you become more like Christ is to "die to self".

Several ways to do that, and the most important, in the context of Salvation, is to die to : Self Righteousness.

What is that?

Self righteousness sounds like this.......>"Yes, i KNOW that Jesus Saved me.......but now i have to ......."

See that "have to"?

That is "Self Righteousness".

No Behold.
That is not self-righteousness.
That is me doing what Jesus taught me to do - and all His followers.

Self-righteous means I always think I'm right and everyone else is wrong.
It means I put myself before anyone.
It means I think I'm better than anyone else.

Jesus saved us and now we're part of the Kingdom here on earth.
We MUST live as subjects to that Kingdom.

We're not going to agree and I'm not going to go on forever like many do.

What does this mean to you?

Matthew 7:21
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

John 14:21
21He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me...


Which commandments would those be?

Self righteousness is any type of mindset whereby you are trying to earn or keep your salvation, because once you are trying to perform for it, or try to keep it.......... then you are now on the Cross and Jesus has been replaced by your Self Righteousness.
That is broken faith.

No.
A broken faith is when you have no more faith.
Paul exhorted us to have proper behavior .... I'll post many verses if necessary.

He also exhorted us to keep the faith.

1 Corinthians 9:27
27But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

Here is how that sounds.......>>"Jesus started my Salvation, and now i have to keep myself saved by doing, doing, doing,...."

See that "doing"?
That just Replaced Jesus's Salvation. = Self Righteousness = Trying to make myself right, with God.

What is interesting about that, is that is how you "fall from Grace".. and in fact, that is exactly what an unbeliever is trying to do... as if you ask them, they'll say..>>"well, as long as i do this and dont do that, then God will have me after i die"

We're not talking about unbelievers here.
We're talking about born again persons that are following Jesus.

Matthew 16:24
24 If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

That is exactly the broken faith, performing to try to be accepted by God that a CHRISTian is doing who is "fallen from Grace" and "in the Flesh".



Once a year., so, it was not eternal.
Whereas .. "Jesus is the ONE TIME... Eternal Sacrifice for Sin"...

See, He does not have to keep dying for us, over and over.

WHO said He does?

Never heard this before....

"It is FINISHED".. Jesus said from The Cross.. and that is why .. 2000 yrs later, His Shed Blood and Death, saved you and me.
And that same, is keeping us saved, forever.

Agreed.
IF
We allow Jesus to.

We didn't lose our free will when we became born again.
We could deny Him at any time.
2 Timothy 2:12

What God does is look inside you to see why you are doing what you are doing, and He will correct that as needed.
God looks at the Heart Motive, and assesses you.

Agreed.

Now, there is a spiritual law that was not nullified by the Cross, and that is..

A.) "Sowing and reaping"... so,.......... when we do... we get..
In other words you reap what you sow.........and that is "sowing and reaping"...

If you do bad, you harvest a recompense, later......but that is not God judging you.. that is "reaping what you have sown"..

Agreed.

 

[Behold]

No Behold.
That is not self-righteousness.
That is me doing what Jesus taught me to do - and all His followers.

We dont serve God to try to keep ourselves saved,.. we serve God because we are saved, and already have eternal life.

if we are trying to follow Jesus, because we believe that "if i dont i lose my salvation" then our faith is in our doing something... our faith is in ourselves to try to stay saved.
That is not faith in Christ..that is faith in SELF..........and that is Self Righteousness. or "trying to make SELF Right with God" or "Trying by SELF.. to keep from losing Salvation".. That is SELF Righteousness. That is SELF Saving....

When that Happens to a born again Christian, in their MIND.... then they are "fallen from Grace", as Paul Teaches .

Self-righteous means I always think I'm right and everyone else is wrong.
It means I put myself before anyone.
It means I think I'm better than anyone else.

That's Pride you are describing, and that is a type of carnality that can be extreme.

Jesus saved us and now we're part of the Kingdom here on earth.
We MUST live as subjects to that Kingdom.

When we come to Jesus, we come to the The Cross as a LIFETIME SINNER, with nothing to offer God but our sin....and God does not give us a condition, before He will save us.

God does not say.>>"ok, promise now that after i save you, you are goring to "live as the subjects in my Kingdom".

So, He didnt put that condition on you or me, to save us, and He does not put that on us, later.

See, Salvation is a "GIFT">. and when you put conditions on it, then you are denying that its a GIFT.. "The GIFT of Salvation".

Matthew 7:21
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

The will of The Father is :: "that you believe in Jesus whom God Sent".

John 14:21
21He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me...

And a person can try to keep the commandments, and yet, if they are not born again when they die, then all their commandment keeping is meaningless.
Hell is filled with water baptized commandment keepers... who didnt do what Jesus told us we MUST do...

""Jesus said...YOU MUST be born again"... and after you are, Jesus has one commandment for you.

Which commandments would those be?

Salvation is not based on Commandment keeping, . Its based On The Cross of Christ. Its Based on the shed blood and death and resurrection of Jesus The Lord.

A broken faith is when you have no more faith.

Dead faith is when you have NO faith.

Broken faith is when you are "fallen from Grace" "in the flesh" and have become a person who is trying to stay saved by self effort.

That person is not trusting in Christ....they are trusting in commandment keeping and self effort and being water baptized, and anything else they can DO of themselves hoping they can keep themselves saved.

That's broken faith.

Real faith is to KNOW......>>"Jesus who saved me, keeps me saved""... and nothing else could.

1 Corinthians 9:27
27But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

Here is the verse you want.. "Present your body as a living sacrifice to God, which is your reasonable SERVICE"..
See that?
That is Discipleship.. its a SERVICE...........its serving...

And you can be a "cast away" .....you can be "disqualified" .. you can "not finish your course".. but you can't stop being born again.. once you are born again.

All the "trying to be like Christ"......self effort, is done correctly because we are already SAVED, and eternally So, the INSTANT we trust in Christ., and never are we to do this to try to keep from losing our salvation.

Being born again, is the only proof we have Eternal Life. ITs the only proof we have become a CHRISTian.

Matthew 16:24
24 If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Yes, a life of moderation, is Key. A life of serving God.. putting God first.......is how we "take up our Cross".....We certainly didn't lose our free will when we became born again. We still "choose this day whom you will serve"..
We get to choose this every day.

We could deny Him at any time.

Of course., but if a Christian becomes faith destroyed or terrible bitter,.. they can even hate God.. but God is still their Father, and Jesus is still their Savior.

Our "believing" is an act of our Free Will.......so, we can't believe in Jesus, unless we have Free Will to do it......otherwise, as the Lying Calvinist Teach, we are "caused" or "forced" to believe.......

These deceived people teach.....""God made me have faith in Christ"".... which of course is nonsense.... but it is a Theology, that is Hyper Calvinism, and its a Cross Denying Lie.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Answer the questions with YES or NO.
20 points for each question answered with YES. Score 100 points or you are toast.
Or at least you will have a TO DO list to work on.

1) You have the right doctrine and can prove it. - YES or NO?
2) You read your Bible and prayer for one hour every day. - YES or NO?
3) You are winning souls for Christ every week. - YES or NO?
4) You never miss a church service. - YES or NO?
5) You give financially to the church WAY beyond your means. - YES or NO?

20 points for each question answered with YES. Score 100 points or you are toast.
Or at least you will have a TO DO list to work on.

How did you do? Are these the right questions?

[

Absolutely wrong questions!!!!!!!!

there is only one thing that determines whether one is a Believer or not.

Have they placed their trust in teh death and physical resurrection of Jesus for their sin debt? If the answer is yes they are saved! They have been given a new life, mind and heart and can start living for god. Those questions are all silly beyond belief.

 

[St. SteVen]

Absolutely wrong questions!!!!!!!!

there is only one thing that determines whether one is a Believer or not.

Have they placed their trust in teh death and physical resurrection of Jesus for their sin debt? If the answer is yes they are saved! They have been given a new life, mind and heart and can start living for god. Those questions are all silly beyond belief.

Agree.
Interesting that most respondents read right over them as if they were legit. - LOL

[

 

[GodsGrace]

We dont serve God to try to keep ourselves saved,.. we serve God because we are saved, and already have eternal life.

Put this way it's 100% right.
This is because the unsaved do not need to serve God.
They're lost....a person can't be more lost than lost.

It's those that are saved that are REQUIRED to obey God.

John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

if we are trying to follow Jesus, because we believe that "if i dont i lose my salvation" then our faith is in our doing something... our faith is in ourselves to try to stay saved.
That is not faith in Christ..that is faith in SELF..........and that is Self Righteousness. or "trying to make SELF Right with God" or "Trying by SELF.. to keep from losing Salvation".. That is SELF Righteousness. That is SELF Saving....

Works never saved anyone.
We don't TRY to do ANYTHING...
we are either doing something or we are not doing something.

No one can make themselves right with God UNLESS they believe in God.
I THINK you must know what believe means in Greek.
I hate running to the Greek, but sometimes it's important, and this is one of those times.

You speak of putting faith in Christ.
What do you mean exactly?
Are speaking about sola fide?
Faith alone.

Faith without works is a dead faith. James 2:17 Faith without works is useless. James 2.20
Works without faith are dead works.

Sola Fide was NEVER taught in the church:

Huldrych Zwingli (1484–1531) was the first well-known theologian who started teaching salvation by faith alone. By his own admission, he went against almost 1,500 years of Bible teachings and beliefs when he taught salvation by faith alone, claiming that teachers “have been in error since the apostles.”
source: STOP saying we are saved by FAITH ALONE!

Is it possible that church theologians were wrong about works/good deeds for 1,500 years until Luther and the others came along?

When that Happens to a born again Christian, in their MIND.... then they are "fallen from Grace", as Paul Teaches .

That's Pride you are describing, and that is a type of carnality that can be extreme.

Call it what you will....
good works are not prideful and they are not works of self-righteousness when they're done to the glory of God
and because this is what Jesus taught.

Some on these forums go so far as to state that doing good works is sinful because we're not trusting God.
I'm not saying you're one of them....but I'd love to see some verses that state this.....that doing good works is sinful.

When we come to Jesus, we come to the The Cross as a LIFETIME SINNER, with nothing to offer God but our sin....and God does not give us a condition, before He will save us.

Agreed.

But don't forget Romans 12:1-2
1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

I already posted that we're to be not only HEARERS of the word but DOERS of the word.

What do these verses mean?

God does not say.>>"ok, promise now that after i save you, you are goring to "live as the subjects in my Kingdom".

That is EXACTLY what Jesus taught.
And He said HOW in the Beatitudes in Matthew chapters 5 to 7.

He said that we are to be a light to the world....this requires doing good deeds.
Matthew 5:14-15

1 Peter 1:16
You shall be holy, or I am holy.

Holy means to be set apart to do God's work.

1 Corinthians 15:58
Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

So, He didnt put that condition on you or me, to save us, and He does not put that on us, later.

It's on us LATER. Explained above.

See, Salvation is a "GIFT">. and when you put conditions on it, then you are denying that its a GIFT.. "The GIFT of Salvation".

We're saved.
Now what?
What do all the verses I've posted mean?

The will of The Father is :: "that you believe in Jesus whom God Sent".

Ah yes.
Believe.
What does BELIEVE mean?

Is it the kind of believe like even the devil has?
Or is it a different type of believe?
A believe that spawns a good heart....
A heart that desires to do the works of God.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works....

And a person can try to keep the commandments, and yet, if they are not born again when they die, then all their commandment keeping is meaningless.
Hell is filled with water baptized commandment keepers... who didnt do what Jesus told us we MUST do...

""Jesus said...YOU MUST be born again"... and after you are, Jesus has one commandment for you.

I'm talking about AFTER one is born again.
The lost are already lost.


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[GodsGrace]

@Behold

page 2 of 2

Salvation is not based on Commandment keeping, . Its based On The Cross of Christ. Its Based on the shed blood and death and resurrection of Jesus The Lord.

Behold....you're not teaching what the NT states plainly.

This is what Jesus said:

John 15:14
You are My friends, IF you do what I command you.

John 15:10
IF you keep My commandments you will abide in My love.

John 14:15
IF you love Me you will keep My commandments.


Sounds like we need to keep the commandments.

Dead faith is when you have NO faith.

But James, who wrote about the dead faith to which you're referring...
was speaking to Christian Jews....
not unbelievers.
He calls them Brethren...
He's telling them they must be DOERS of the word and not only HEARERS of the word.

Dead faith, according to James, is when we do nothing with our salvation/faith...
it becomes a dead faith.

Broken faith is when you are "fallen from Grace" "in the flesh" and have become a person who is trying to stay saved by self effort.

Are you a Pelagian?
It's never by our own self effort.
We can do nothing without the help of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said it was good that He went away so the helper could come.
Helper to do what?

Jesus said without Him, we can do nothing.
John 15:4
Abide in Me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me.

Which fruit is Jesus speaking of?

That person is not trusting in Christ....they are trusting in commandment keeping and self effort and being water baptized, and anything else they can DO of themselves hoping they can keep themselves saved.

Yes. We must be baptized too.
Jesus said this.
Paul said this.
Mark said this.

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

That's broken faith.

Real faith is to KNOW......>>"Jesus who saved me, keeps me saved""... and nothing else could.

This sounds too reformed.
Jesus keeps us saved IF we stay close to Him.
We're free to leave Him at any time we so desire.
If we deny Him...He will deny us.

Here is the verse you want.. "Present your body as a living sacrifice to God, which is your reasonable SERVICE"..
See that?
That is Discipleship.. its a SERVICE...........its serving...

Agreed.

And you can be a "cast away" .....you can be "disqualified" .. you can "not finish your course".. but you can't stop being born again.. once you are born again.

That statement is going to require more than one verse.
I don't see any in the NT.
If Paul was afraid of being disqualified...
We should have the same concern and behave accordingly.

All the "trying to be like Christ"......self effort, is done correctly because we are already SAVED, and eternally So, the INSTANT we trust in Christ., and never are we to do this to try to keep from losing our salvation.

Agreed.
But some DO lose their salvation...if necessary I'll post many verses next time.

Being born again, is the only proof we have Eternal Life. ITs the only proof we have become a CHRISTian.

Agreed.

Yes, a life of moderation, is Key. A life of serving God.. putting God first.......is how we "take up our Cross".....We certainly didn't lose our free will when we became born again. We still "choose this day whom you will serve"..
We get to choose this every day.

Agreed.

Of course., but if a Christian becomes faith destroyed or terrible bitter,.. they can even hate God.. but God is still their Father, and Jesus is still their Savior.

Our "believing" is an act of our Free Will.......so, we can't believe in Jesus, unless we have Free Will to do it......otherwise, as the Lying Calvinist Teach, we are "caused" or "forced" to believe.......

These deceived people teach.....""God made me have faith in Christ"".... which of course is nonsense.... but it is a Theology, that is Hyper Calvinism, and its a Cross Denying Lie.

Actually, the persons I know that have lost their faith ARE bitter.

As to the rest....I agree.

Some get good works/deeds mixed up with The Law.
I hope you're not one of them....
We are NOT under The Law.

 

[Behold]

@Behold

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Behold....you're not teaching what the NT states plainly.

This is what Jesus said:

John 15:14You are My friends, IF you do what I command you.

John 15:10IF you keep My commandments you will abide in My love.

John 14:15IF you love Me you will keep My commandments.


Sounds like we need to keep the commandments.

Jesus's Commandments are not the 10 Commandments.
The 10 Commandments came from Moses.

So, we are in agreenent that we are to live for The Lord, but we are not to do this in fear of losing salvation.
As that is broken faith.
That is, "i have faith that as long as i do this and keep that, then God will keep me".

That is : Legalism.

But James,
He's telling them they must be DOERS of the word and not only HEARERS of the word.

James says to believers that they have dead faith.
So, if that means they have lost their salvation then he would not have then told them what to do.

Salvation is not a Y0-YO that goes up when you are good, and down when you have lost your salvation.

Dead faith,

Its a cold heart toward the things of God.

You can also have an indifferent heart, and Jesus calls that "Lukewarm".

Are you a Pelagian?

I teach that the Blood of Jesus (The Cross of Christ) forgives your sin.
Episkopos teaches that it does not.....so, He's your "pelagain".

Also.. a true Gnostic is a type of "pelagain", and im also not one of those.
I teach that "by one man's sin", we all became sinners, and by One Lord Jesus and His Cross, "all who call on the name of Jesus, shall be saved".

"Pauline Theology".

It's never by our own self effort.
We can do nothing without the help of the Holy Spirit.

Sure you can.
You can give to the poor, tithe to your church, for example.
Many do that every sunday and HATE IT... but they feel that "well, i have to do it"..

And that behavior is carnal, and has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said it was good that He went away so the helper could come.
Helper to do what?

Empower the believer to be a good disciple.
But you can't be a perfect one, unless you have the Knowledge of God.
Paul teaches that when you have this.. then you are in the right mind, and you are this..>>"as many as be perfect".

Jesus said without Him, we can do nothing.
John 15:4
Abide in Me and I in you.

Jesus is always in the Believer as "Christ in you , the Hope of Glory".. (Glory is heaven)

Jesus never leaves us, and we are always "in Christ".

They way you stop "abiding" is when a person tries to DO Christianity, vs, understanding God's Grace correctly.

Which fruit is Jesus speaking of?

I am the True Vine and you are the Branches.
So, there is a flow from the Holy Spirit, that is our power that produces God's goodness through us, in many different ways..
That is our "Fruit".

Yes. We must be baptized too.
Jesus said this.
Paul said this.
Mark said this.

I was water baptized 11 yrs after i was born again.
I was called into the Ministry before i was water baptized.
The Semi-Mod "Pearl" who is here a lot.......she was also born again quite a while before she was Water Baptized.
Some are born again and die before they are water baptized.

Some are born again in a prison somewhere, and there is no water baptism for them..... at that time.
Some are born again in countries that dont allow Bibles or Christianity.. so, no water for them... .at that time.
Some people tomorrow morning at 3am.. in a Cancer ward in an Italian Hospital... are by themselves, in the dark, in their room, and they are about to die.... and they "call on the name of Jesus" and God saves them... .and they die.
No water baptism for them.....not ever.

Paul actually said.>>"Christ sent me not to water baptize".
He said this to prevent believers from putting to much emphasis on the city water supply.

Did you ever read John 20:22?

Jesus gave 11 Apostles the Holy Spirit........ and none of them were water baptized at that time...

Did you ever read Acts 2:37-40?
The Holy Spirit had been given, and Peter preached to 3000, and "tongues" showed up, ...and none of the 100 in the upper room were water baptized, nor was Peter at that time, water baptized.

Jesus keeps us saved IF we stay close to Him.

We are saved, is why we stay saved.

Its not a part time thing., as Salvation is Eternal life and Eternal life is not temporary.
Our Salvation didnt happen because we were good.. it happened when we were "yet sinners"... So, if we are saved as "yet sinners" then later if we are not perfect, it does not affect our Salvation.

1.) See, there is Salvation... that is God forgiving the SINNER and giving the Believer the New Birth.
So, that's finished.= born again.

2.) And then, we start our Discipleship.. and that is not our Salvation......its our Discipleship that we do, our daily lifestyle, our constant behavior.... that is to reflect that we are a Christian..... because we ARE SAVED.. not to try to be saved or stay saved.

So, when a Christian, is horrible, then that is their Discipleship that is horrible..(behavior)... Whereas, their Salvation is Christ on The Cross who has joined them to God, by sacrificing Himself for us... when we were "yet sinners".

Salvation is what God provides through the Cross of Christ...and its Eternal.

Discipleship is what we do after we are saved..... , because we have already received what God has provided through Christ on the Cross.

They are not the same thing.

Salvation.. is not Discipleship..........Discipleship is not Salvation.

If Paul was afraid of being disqualified...

Being disqualified is not related to going to hell.
its regarding becoming unfruitful, having dead faith, and losing all heavenly REWARDS.

Its like.......... if you are running a race in the Olympics, and you are at the start line, and there is the GUN that starts the race, and you "jump" before the Gun....... you are "disqualified"....Yet you are still in the Olympics.. you are only disqualified from the race.
So, Paul is saying........i am not going to be one of those who does not END WELL.....>im going to KEEP THE FAITH.. all the way to the end.
And He did.
And so, he was not disqualified from receiving a "Crown" in Heaven... that is given to all who do that.. as He explains.

But some DO lose their salvation...

No one can lose their salvation..... as Salvation is Jesus on The Cross, reconciling you to God for Eternity, through His Blood, Death, And Resurrection.
You can't do that, so you can't lose that.
That is not something that you can "lose".....because once it's happened, then its finished.

We can't cause Salvation, nor can we lose it.. .. all we can do is RECEIVE IT and then we become.. "The righteousness of God in Christ"

Let me show you this...
God and Christ and the Holy Spirit, are IN the Believer.. so, if the Born Again Believer went to Hell......so would they.

= Not going to happen.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus's Commandments are not the 10 Commandments.
The 10 Commandments came from Moses.

I read through quick and we might be saying the same thing using different words...not sure.

The 10 commandments:
The OT had 3 types of law:
CIVIL
CEREMONIAL
MORAL

The civil and ceremonial laws are abolished, for obvious reasons. An important one is that the Temple was destroyed.

The MORAL Laws will NEVER be abolished. If you think they should be then you agree with relative morality and this is not what the NT teaches and I have a feeling you agree. Morals are set in stone and they do not change as God does not change.
Deuteronomy 4:13

I asked you a question which I hope you replied below.
It has to do with the difference between the old covenant and the new covenant.

So, we are in agreenent that we are to live for The Lord, but we are not to do this in fear of losing salvation.
As that is broken faith.
That is, "i have faith that as long as i do this and keep that, then God will keep me".

That is : Legalism.

I agree.
Love is not fearful.
We work/do good deeds because we're a member of the Kingdom and we try to make the Kingdom a better place.
NOT because we fear God....Love casts out all fear.
1 John 4:18

But, as I stated and posted verses,,,Jesus DID say that we are to follow His commandments.
Which commandments do you suppose those would be?

James says to believers that they have dead faith.
So, if that means they have lost their salvation then he would not have then told them what to do.

What? I don't know what you're saying.
James is instructing believers to do good works.
He's telling them that faith WITHOUT works is a dead faith.
If we're following what Jesus taught,,,we do not have dead faith.

Dead faith is those that teach that ALL WE NEED TO DO is believe.
Nothing else required.
I'm saying that THIS is incorrect.

We need TO DO.
Jesus Himself said this.
He said that we Him we will produce much fruit.

He said that those that do not produce fruit will be cut off.
John 15:2
Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit...He (God Father) takes away....

Salvation is not a Y0-YO that goes up when you are good, and down when you have lost your salvation.

Who said this?
I certainly didn't.

Salvation can be lost through apostacy.
We're talking about doing good works here....

Its a cold heart toward the things of God.

You can also have an indifferent heart, and Jesus calls that "Lukewarm".

I don't know to what you're referring Behold.
These are long posts and I can't keep going back and forth.
My question should be in your reply. Many don't do this.

Re the lukewarn heart.
I guess you're referring to Revelation.
Jesus said He would SPIT THEM OUT.
He would rather that they be cold....
the cold could learn.
The lukewarm think they know.

I teach that the Blood of Jesus (The Cross of Christ) forgives your sin.
Episkopos teaches that it does not.....so, He's your "pelagain".

I agree with you, but who knows to what you're referring.
Pelagius taught that we don't need the Holy Spirit to follow God.

Also.. a true Gnostic is a type of "pelagain", and im also not one of those.
I teach that "by one man's sin", we all became sinners, and by One Lord Jesus and His Cross, "all who call on the name of Jesus, shall be saved".

"Pauline Theology".

Agreed.

Sure you can.
You can give to the poor, tithe to your church, for example.
Many do that every sunday and HATE IT... but they feel that "well, i have to do it"..

Sure you can WHAT??
I think you're speaking of the condition of the heart.
Did I say something that made you think we should do good works because if we don't we're going to hell?
Did I mention something about HOW MANY good works we're supposed to do to gain heaven?
I hear that a lot too.
Total misunderstanding of the commandments of Jesus.

And that behavior is carnal, and has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit.

Empower the believer to be a good disciple.
But you can't be a perfect one, unless you have the Knowledge of God.
Paul teaches that when you have this.. then you are in the right mind, and you are this..>>"as many as be perfect".

Jesus is always in the Believer as "Christ in you , the Hope of Glory".. (Glory is heaven)

Jesus never leaves us, and we are always "in Christ".

They way you stop "abiding" is when a person tries to DO Christianity, vs, understanding God's Grace correctly.

I am the True Vine and you are the Branches.
So, there is a flow from the Holy Spirit, that is our power that produces God's goodness through us, in many different ways..
That is our "Fruit".

Too difficult to reply.
We need some syntax here....
Our goodness is our fruit.
OK
What does that goodness produce?
What ARE THE FRUIT?

I was water baptized 11 yrs after i was born again.
I was called into the Ministry before i was water baptized.
The Semi-Mod "Pearl" who is here a lot.......she was also born again quite a while before she was Water Baptized.
Some are born again and die before they are water baptized.

§And you're saying this because??.....


page 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

@Behold

Page 2 of 2

Some are born again in a prison somewhere, and there is no water baptism for them..... at that time.
Some are born again in countries that dont allow Bibles or Christianity.. so, no water for them... .at that time.
Some people tomorrow morning at 3am.. in a Cancer ward in an Italian Hospital... are by themselves, in the dark, in their room, and they are about to die.... and they "call on the name of Jesus" and God saves them... .and they die.
No water baptism for them.....not ever.

Did I state something different?

Paul actually said.>>"Christ sent me not to water baptize".
He said this to prevent believers from putting to much emphasis on the city water supply.

No. Paul said this because he was sent to preach to the gentiles....
If we read through Acts, we find that even those that were already believers DID get baptized.
You can't take one sentence out of scripture and then ignore all the rest that say it's necessary.
This is what Calvinists do with Romans 3:10....

Did you ever read John 20:22?

Is that a serious question?
Why do you ask?

Jesus gave 11 Apostles the Holy Spirit........ and none of them were water baptized at that time...

First, we can't know that for sure.
Because something is not written does not mean it didn't happen.
Is this a thread on baptism, cause I've got plenty of scripture....
not the least being Matthew 28:19

Did you ever read Acts 2:37-40?
The Holy Spirit had been given, and Peter preached to 3000, and "tongues" showed up, ...and none of the 100 in the upper room were water baptized, nor was Peter at that time, water baptized.

Yes. You want to discuss baptism.
I'm not going there on this thread.
We can receive the Holy Spirit...
We can be indwelt with the Holy Spirit....
Just one point.

We are saved, is why we stay saved.

Its not a part time thing., as Salvation is Eternal life and Eternal life is not temporary.
Our Salvation didnt happen because we were good.. it happened when we were "yet sinners"... So, if we are saved as "yet sinners" then later if we are not perfect, it does not affect our Salvation.

If you notice, every verse about salvation and believing is in the PRESENT tense.
We must be believing at our death for salvation to occur.

The NT speaks of having HOPE until we receive our salvation.
James states this well:

James 1:12
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.

Many other verses that speak to our hope.

1.) See, there is Salvation... that is God forgiving the SINNER and giving the Believer the New Birth.
So, that's finished.= born again.

2.) And then, we start our Discipleship.. and that is not our Salvation......its our Discipleship that we do, our daily lifestyle, our constant behavior.... that is to reflect that we are a Christian..... because we ARE SAVED.. not to try to be saved or stay saved.

So, when a Christian, is horrible, then that is their Discipleship that is horrible..(behavior)... Whereas, their Salvation is Christ on The Cross who has joined them to God, by sacrificing Himself for us... when we were "yet sinners".

Difficult to know to what you're responding...besides the fact that you're all over the place and my post was about doing good works.

What if the disciple remains horrible?

Salvation is what God provides through the Cross of Christ...and its Eternal.

Salvation is eternal at the end of our life when we RECEIVE salvation.

1 Timothy 4:10
1 Peter 1:9
Ephesians 4:4

Discipleship is what we do after we are saved..... , because we have already received what God has provided through Christ on the Cross.

They are not the same thing.

Salvation.. is not Discipleship..........Discipleship is not Salvation.

Being disqualified is not related to going to hell.
its regarding becoming unfruitful, having dead faith, and losing all heavenly REWARDS.

Re being disqualified,,,which Paul feared COULD happen.
He was not worried about losing a reward...
Paul taught his listeners how to achieve heaven....
he was speaking about losing heaven.

If you want to discuss OSAS,,,,please start a thread.

Its like.......... if you are running a race in the Olympics, and you are at the start line, and there is the GUN that starts the race, and you "jump" before the Gun....... you are "disqualified"....Yet you are still in the Olympics.. you are only disqualified from the race.

Funny Behold.
The RACE is what we're in.
If we STOP, we are no longer in the race!

So, Paul is saying........i am not going to be one of those who does not END WELL.....>im going to KEEP THE FAITH.. all the way to the end.
And He did.
And so, he was not disqualified from receiving a "Crown" in Heaven... that is given to all who do that.. as He explains.

Right. Paul does not want to be one that does NOT end well by NOT keeping the faith.
Again,,,this is not what my intent was in writing to you.

No one can lose their salvation..... as Salvation is Jesus on The Cross, reconciling you to God for Eternity, through His Blood, Death, And Resurrection.
You can't do that, so you can't lose that.
That is not something that you can "lose".....because once it's happened, then its finished.

We can't cause Salvation, nor can we lose it.. .. all we can do is RECEIVE IT and then we become.. "The righteousness of God in Christ"

Let me show you this...
God and Christ and the Holy Spirit, are IN the Believer.. so, if the Born Again Believer went to Hell......so would they.

= Not going to happen.

For goodness sake Behold.
What a strange analogy.
IF the believer looses his faith...
it means that the Holy Spirit IS NO LONGER IN HIM
so the Holy Spirit will not be going to hell with him, as in your analogy.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I read through quick and we might be saying the same thing using different words...not sure.

The 10 commandments:
The OT had 3 types of law:
CIVIL
CEREMONIAL
MORAL

The civil and ceremonial laws are abolished, for obvious reasons. An important one is that the Temple was destroyed.

The MORAL Laws will NEVER be abolished. If you think they should be then you agree with relative morality and this is not what the NT teaches and I have a feeling you agree. Morals are set in stone and they do not change as God does not change.
Deuteronomy 4:13

Man breaks the 613 Mosaic Laws into those three categories, but God never did.

And as for the commandments written in stone?

2 Corinthians 3:7
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

The law written in stone is a ministry of death. It was established to make people sin more (as Paul wrote here in coritnhians) not that the law is unholy, but man is and the law was designed to show ho wsinful man was.

The law was also a schoolmaster to teach us until Jesus came.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Of the ten written in stone- only 9 have been carried forward to the church.

 

[GodsGrace]

Man breaks the 613 Mosaic Laws into those three categories, but God never did.

Oh.
So you're circumcised? (for religious reasons).
You were betrothed for a year before marrying your wife?
When your child acted up, you brought him to the edge of town so the neighbors could stone him to death?
You worship on Saturday and do no gardening, shopping, cooking, or anything else that could be considered work?
You eat only kosher food?
No shell fish?
If you don't like your wife's cooking...you've considered divorcing her? With no prior notice.

I could go on, but that might be sufficient.

And as for the commandments written in stone?

2 Corinthians 3:7
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

The law written in stone is a ministry of death. It was established to make people sin more (as Paul wrote here in coritnhians) not that the law is unholy, but man is and the law was designed to show ho wsinful man was.

The law was also a schoolmaster to teach us until Jesus came.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Of the ten written in stone- only 9 have been carried forward to the church.

Hmmm. Now it sounds like you're NOT for the Law.
Very confusing.

 

[Behold]

I read through quick and we might be saying the same thing using different words...not sure.

The 10 commandments:
The OT had 3 types of law:
CIVIL
CEREMONIAL
MORAL

Jesus gave one commandment., the rest are from Moses.

Moses's commandments are LAW, and the born again are "not under the Law, but under Grace".

The MORAL Laws will NEVER be abolished

Both the Law and commandments are abolished regarding being able to define a Christian as a sinner.

This is because the Christian is "NOT under the LAW, but under Grace"..

So, for us, the Law and 10 Commandments are just lifestyle boundaries, and nothing more.

It has to do with the difference between the old covenant and the new covenant.

The New Covenant abolished the Old, regarding the born again.
If a person is not born again...., then the New Covenant is not in effect for them, and they are still "under the Law", being defined by the Law as a SINNER.

They are here: John 3:36

But, as I stated and posted verses,,,Jesus DID say that we are to follow His commandments.
Which commandments do you suppose those would be?

He has one commandment.

Its "Love".

Love for God, Love for each other.

What? I don't know what you're saying.
James is instructing believers to do good works.

He is instruction believers who have DEAD FAITH.. to do works.

So, those Christians with DEAD FAITH, are still going to Heaven, as otherwise He would not be dealing with them about their dead faith.

See, the cult teaching is.>"dead faith = dead Salvation"........but James is still dealing with the believers who have dead faith, and is showing them.....is explaining to them that they need to get busy, and go forward.

If we're following what Jesus taught,,,we do not have dead faith.

This idea of "doing what Jesus said" has many outlets......and its not related to Moses 10 commandments.

ose that do not produce fruit will be cut off.
John 15:2
Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit...He (God Father) takes away....

We dont go to Hell because we are not a good Christian..... as Only unbelievers who are not born again, go to hell.

There are no Christians in Hell, because Christians are forgiven their sin.
There are no unbelievers, never born again, in Heaven.

Jesus said He would SPIT THEM OUT.

Symbolic.
Does not mean that Christians are "spit".

It just means that Jesus counts these as failed disciples.. who are still born again

They are born again.. so, they are not the "depart from me, i never knew you"... as obviously Jesus does know US< as He is IN US.

 

[Behold]

If we read through Acts, we find that even those that were already believers DID get baptized.

Water baptism is to performed subsequent to Salvation.

Everyone should be water baptized, after they are born again.

Its Catholicism that tries to falsely connect The Cross with Water, as "baptismal regeneration".... and God does not.

Its Catholicism that teaches that "water baptism washes away your sin".. and it does not, as its just water.

Is this a thread on baptism, cause I've got plenty of scripture....

Everyone should be water baptized after they are born again.
Sometimes this is not possible, but when it is possible, the person who is now born again, should be water baptized.

We must be believing at our death for salvation to occur.

Every born again person already has Salvation, as you can't become a Christian without it.. as having Salvation, is the only proof you have become a Christian.

Being born again, is the eternal Proof a person is become A Christian....

"well behold what about all those good works".

Anyone can fake those, and come to forum and do it.
The devil understands "chrisiatinese".. he has his people "sounding like christians" as that is how they fool you.

The NT speaks of having HOPE until we receive our salvation.
James states this well:

I have Salvation.
Im born again, for a long time now.
All Christians have receive "the Gift of Salvation""", as otherwise you're not a Christian.

Being Born again, being forgiven, is SALVATION.

Being "in Christ"., "one with God", "seated in Heavenly places"", and "having eternal life" is the proof a person has God's Salvation, as otherwise they have none of this, are are not born again..

James 1:12
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.

Ok, thats a Trial.
Salvation is not a "trial".....its "The Gift of Salvation". Its "The Gift of Righteousness".. its "The Gift of Eternal life". "Its forgiveness of Sin".

Being born again is proof you have received "The Gift of Salvation."

What if the disciple remains horrible?

That is their mind and their behavior.
Its not their Born again Spirit, that is the actual Son/Daughter of God that is "in Christ'.

How many Pastors have a loud argument, with their wife... yelling.........on the way to Church.

That is just behavior,.. that is not their Salvation.

Salvation is eternal at the end of our life when we RECEIVE salvation.

I have God's Salvation now, as do all Christians, as you can't be a Christian without being Born again, and being born again is the eternal proof you have received God's """Gift of Salvation.""

You dont work for a gift., you receive it.

1 Timothy 4:10
1 Peter 1:9
Ephesians 4:4

Re being disqualified,,,which Paul feared COULD happen.

You can't stop being born again, and being born again is not based on our behavior.
Its based on God accepting us, because of the finished word of Jesus on the Cross.

Jesus is THE WAY to God, not our behavior. John 14:6

He was not worried about losing a reward...

He called it a "crown" that he will receive because He : "kept the faith".
That is a reward Paul and anyone can received, if they never lose their faith......never become a person who has stopped trusting in Christ, and is now trying to keep themselves saved.
As that is broken faith, which is to "fall from Grace".. as Paul teaches

Paul taught his listeners how to achieve heaven....

You can't achieve Heaven by deeds or self effort.
You have to be born again into Christ, and God, ..........and that recreates the believer as a "new Creation"... "one with God".
That puts the born again person in the "Kingdom of God"... forever.

Trying to "achieve heaven" would be trying to earn it by self effort and The Cross denies this, completely.
You can read what Epikopos writes as its nothing but...>>"look at me trying to be righteous so that i can earn heaven".

That is just the worst type of carnal religiosity.....its LEGALISM.

Gods "GIFT OF Salvation""..... is "not of work" lest "a person will boast"... 'im doing it.. im keeping myself saved".
Salvation is "THe Gift of Salvation" that is "Grace through faith, and that not of the law" or "works'..

he was speaking about losing heaven.

No he's not.
You can't lose heaven, but you can lose your rewards, in heaven.

If you want to discuss OSAS,,,,please start a thread.

Not interested, as that discussion is reserved for people who dont understand The Cross of Christ.

The RACE is what we're in.

We are in the race because we are born again .
So, the "race' is our discipleship that begins subsequent to our Salvation. This race is not our salvation.. is our "course" we are on that is our discipleship.
Paul said He "finished my course'.....He didnt say He "finished his salvation", and that is because JESUS is His Salvation, and Jesus finished it 2000 yrs ago for us All.

If we STOP, we are no longer in the race!

You can't stop being born again, but you can become worldly, carnal, and even "fall from Grace".

IF the believer looses his faith...
it means that the Holy Spirit IS NO LONGER IN HIM

The Christian is "in Christ' and "one with God".. forever.
Being born again, is not part time, its a BIRTH...and a birth is COMPLETED.
You can't lose this.....as its completed when you are born again, as that is what it means to be born again.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus gave one commandment., the rest are from Moses.

Which one commandment did Jesus give?

Moses's commandments are LAW, and the born again are "not under the Law, but under Grace".

Some rules were from Moses...agreed. Although this will not be accepted for fundamental Christians, it's textually correct.
It's also true that we're not under the Law.

You captialized Law.
We are not under the Law of Moses,,,,
but we ARE under the law of faith...the law of God.
The obedience of faith.

Romans 1:5
5through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake,
6among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

Jesus left us with 2 Great Commandments:
Love God
Love your neighbor as yourself.

(I count that as 3, but who am I to argue?)

Look,,,these 2 commandments will cover all of the 10.
None of them say that we are not to boil a kid in milk...
Interesting, isn't it?
Seems to confirm what I've said previously....
that the MORAL LAW will never be obsolete.

Both the Law and commandments are abolished regarding being able to define a Christian as a sinner.

This is because the Christian is "NOT under the LAW, but under Grace"..

So, for us, the Law and 10 Commandments are just lifestyle boundaries, and nothing more.

This is most interesting,
and so is the fact that you NEVER replied to my question to you:
What is the difference between the OC and the NC?

If you don't answer that, this conversation is moot.

The New Covenant abolished the Old, regarding the born again.

No sir.
NO covenant EVER abolished a previous one.
Every covenant either made the previous one better, or change it somehow
but it NEVER abolished it.

When I read this,,,I know that the writer has not studied the Covenants.
Hebrews mentions something about a covenant abolishing the old one...
but if you check...you'll find that this is just not so....
the writer of Hebrews just meant that the NC is BETTER than the OC.

If a person is not born again...., then the New Covenant is not in effect for them, and they are still "under the Law", being defined by the Law as a SINNER.

The NC is only in effect for a believer.
Non believers are under NO COVENANT.
They don't believe in covenants.

They are here: John 3:36

Not sure what you mean by this.

He has one commandment.

Its "Love".

Love for God, Love for each other.

OK
And that covers all the 10 commandments, as I stated previously.

He is instruction believers who have DEAD FAITH.. to do works.

So, those Christians with DEAD FAITH, are still going to Heaven, as otherwise He would not be dealing with them about their dead faith.

Behold,,,,if your faith is DEAD,,,,it means you have no faith.
If a person has no faith...
he is NOT going to heaven.

Faith is necessary to enter...
No faith....no entry.

We're told all throughout the NT that we must believe to be saved.

NO FAITH....NO BELIEF....NO SALVATION

See, the cult teaching is.>"dead faith = dead Salvation"........but James is still dealing with the believers who have dead faith, and is showing them.....is explaining to them that they need to get busy, and go forward.

James is warning believers that they're REQUIRED to act out their faith.

If one doesn't ACT OUT their faith...then they have a dead faith.

Jesus taught this also.
I've posted verses but you don't respond to them and instead keep telling me what you've said before.

BE NOT ONLY HEARERS OF THE WORLD BUT DOERS OF THE WORD.
NOT THOSE WHO CRY LORD LORD GO TO HEAVEN,,BUT THOSE THAT DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER.
GOOD WORKS WERE CREATED FOR US FROM THE BEGINNING OF TIME.
LET YOUR LIGHT SHINE SO THAT GOOD WORKS MAY BE SEEN.


There are plenty of verses.
Do I really need to post more?

This idea of "doing what Jesus said" has many outlets......and its not related to Moses 10 commandments.

Well, do we have to get into what SPECIFICALLY JESUS said to do?
He left many more commandments that only the 10.

For instance He taught that we're to give to the poor.
This is a good work.

He said to visit the sick.
This is a good work.

He said to cloth the poor.
This is a good work.

We dont go to Hell because we are not a good Christian..... as Only unbelievers who are not born again, go to hell.

What?
If we are not a good Christian, then what are we...a bad Christian?

If we are a bad Christian
WE ARE NOT CHRISTIAN.

The two words do not belong in the same sentence.

There are no Christians in Hell, because Christians are forgiven their sin.
There are no unbelievers, never born again, in Heaven.

Agreed.
And a Christian does the will of the Father.
DOES
An action word.

Symbolic.
Does not mean that Christians are "spit".

Jesus saying that He will SPIT YOU OUT OF HIS MOUTH...
sounds symbolic to you?

No comment.
I like to take Jesus at His word.

It just means that Jesus counts these as failed disciples.. who are still born again

They are born again.. so, they are not the "depart from me, i never knew you"... as obviously Jesus does know US< as He is IN US.

Depart from Me I never knew you is explained by Jesus Himself.
Here's the entire verse:

Matthew 7:23
23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Jesus says DEPART FROM ME to those that practice lawlessness.

A person that practices lawlessness is a person that does not practice the law.

What law?
The law Jesus left us with, and which you do not seem to accept.
Jesus left us with many things TO DO.
It is the obedience of faith as stated in Romans 1:5

 

[Behold]

Which one commandment did Jesus give?

Love

but we ARE under the law of faith...the law of God.
The obedience of faith.

Actually the law of Faith is "Grace".. and that is why the born again are '"not under the Law, but UNDER...Grace".

Grace is the "law" of the KOG.

Whereas "the Law is the power of Sin". "the power of sin is the Law".

Jesus left us with 2 Great Commandments:
Love God
Love your neighbor as yourself.

Right.. Love.

If you love God, If you love Jesus, you will love ... and that Love manifests toward everyone.

Its not 2 separate loves, its one love, for all.

that the MORAL LAW will never be obsolete.

Hell is filled with water baptized commandment keepers.

Why are they there.?

Jesus said... "You must be born again".....and they were not.............but they did obsess on doing good works and trying to be like Christ.

So for them, they are "religious but lost".

What is the difference between the OC and the NC?

The Cross of Christ

NO covenant EVER abolished a previous one.

Listen, you want to try to prove that you can lose your salvation, as that is your faith, and im not interested in continuing that discussion.

​

By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear. New Living Translation When God speaks of a “new” covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear. English Standard Version In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Berean Standard Bible By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. Berean Literal Bible In saying, "new," He has made obsolete the first; and that which is growing old and aging is near vanishing. King James Bible In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. New King James Version In that He says, “ A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. New American Standard Bible When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear. NASB 1995 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. NASB 1977 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. Legacy Standard Bible When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. Amplified Bible When God speaks of “A new covenant,” He makes the first one obsolete. And whatever is becoming obsolete (out of use, annulled) and growing old is ready to disappear. Christian Standard Bible By saying a new covenant, he has declared that the first is obsolete. And what is obsolete and growing old is about to pass away. Holman Christian Standard Bible By saying, a new covenant, He has declared that the first is old. And what is old and aging is about to disappear.

'

 

[GodsGrace]

Water baptism is to performed subsequent to Salvation.

Agreed.

Everyone should be water baptized, after they are born again.

Its Catholicism that tries to falsely connect The Cross with Water, as "baptismal regeneration".... and God does not.

Its Catholicism that teaches that "water baptism washes away your sin".. and it does not, as its just water.

The NT teaches that we are baptized for the forgiveness of sin.
Acts 2:38
Acts 22:16
Colossians 2:12-13
Titus 3:5 I'm sure there's more.

Everyone should be water baptized after they are born again.
Sometimes this is not possible, but when it is possible, the person who is now born again, should be water baptized.

Agreed.

Every born again person already has Salvation, as you can't become a Christian without it.. as having Salvation, is the only proof you have become a Christian.

Being born again, is the eternal Proof a person is become A Christian....

"well behold what about all those good works".

Anyone can fake those, and come to forum and do it.
The devil understands "chrisiatinese".. he has his people "sounding like christians" as that is how they fool you.

You're talking about feigning good works.
(easier to reply since my post is just above this time)

We could make believe with others or those on these forums...
but we cannot make believe with God.

I have Salvation.
Im born again, for a long time now.
All Christians have receive "the Gift of Salvation""", as otherwise you're not a Christian.

Being Born again, being forgiven, is SALVATION.

Being "in Christ"., "one with God", "seated in Heavenly places"", and "having eternal life" is the proof a person has God's Salvation, as otherwise they have none of this, are are not born again..

I agree.
Won't bother to check what I had said.

Ok, thats a Trial.
Salvation is not a "trial".....its "The Gift of Salvation". Its "The Gift of Righteousness".. its "The Gift of Eternal life". "Its forgiveness of Sin".

Being born again is proof you have received "The Gift of Salvation."

You're replying to James 1:2 (wish you would state it).
James is saying that we must persevere till the end.
This is the point.
We receive salvation at the end of our lives....
Matthew 24:13
Matthew 10:22
Galatians 6:9
1 Peter 1:6

This is because it's possible to lose our faith and thus lose our salvation.

That is their mind and their behavior.
Its not their Born again Spirit, that is the actual Son/Daughter of God that is "in Christ'.

How many Pastors have a loud argument, with their wife... yelling.........on the way to Church.

That is just behavior,.. that is not their Salvation.

A Christian remaining HORRIBLE (your word) is not the same as having an argument with your wife.
If a person is HORRIBLE...
he cannot be a Christian.

Christianity is not pschizophrenic...
You're either practicing a transformed life....
or somehow you're not born again...the Holy Spirit is not with you.

Romans 12:2
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

I have God's Salvation now, as do all Christians, as you can't be a Christian without being Born again, and being born again is the eternal proof you have received God's """Gift of Salvation.""

You dont work for a gift., you receive it.

Never said we can work for our salvation.
I don't think any Christian believes this.

You can't stop being born again, and being born again is not based on our behavior.
Its based on God accepting us, because of the finished word of Jesus on the Cross.

God will not accept an evil person into heaven.
It has EVERYTHING to do with our behavior...AFTER salvation, as I've stated.
You're believing in sola fide,,,,
nowhere in the NT does it state that our faith alone will save us.
Action is required.
Faith requires action.
If you have faith that the parachute will open...
then you'll be willing to step out of the plane.

Jesus is THE WAY to God, not our behavior. John 14:6

Ah. But WHAT IS the way?
We're also to BELIEVE...
but what IS belief.
Never got an answer to that either.
It's not convenient.

Jesus NEVER said to ONLY believe,,,,,He gave instructions.
Take the Beatitudes, for instance...Matthew chapters 5 to 7...all instructions.

He called it a "crown" that he will receive because He : "kept the faith".
That is a reward Paul and anyone can received, if they never lose their faith......never become a person who has stopped trusting in Christ, and is now trying to keep themselves saved.
As that is broken faith, which is to "fall from Grace".. as Paul teaches

If we FALL FROM GRACE it means we don't have grace anymore.

If you fall from a tree...you have become separated from the tree.

You can't achieve Heaven by deeds or self effort.
You have to be born again into Christ, and God, ..........and that recreates the believer as a "new Creation"... "one with God".
That puts the born again person in the "Kingdom of God"... forever.

Actually, no.
You become a new creation at salvation.
But some "proof" must be visible.
Salvation creates a different behavior.
If we don't have a different behavior...
it means we are not born again.
I think I replied to this just above.

Trying to "achieve heaven" would be trying to earn it by self effort and The Cross denies this, completely.
You can read what Epikopos writes as its nothing but...>>"look at me trying to be righteous so that i can earn heaven".

Achieve heaven: By following the rules set by both Jesus and Paul.
So
If a person is TRANSFORMED....as surely the Holy Spirit transforms....
then he will be given the strength to do these good works that are required of all Christians in order to ameliorate the Kingdom of God here on earth.
What reason could there be for creating a Kingdom if not to make our life better?

That is just the worst type of carnal religiosity.....its LEGALISM.

It's not legalism.
It's following the 2 great commandments of Jesus and everything He taught.

Legalism is when you think that going to a church service every week without fail is going to get you to heaven...

Gods "GIFT OF Salvation""..... is "not of work" lest "a person will boast"... 'im doing it.. im keeping myself saved".
Salvation is "THe Gift of Salvation" that is "Grace through faith, and that not of the law" or "works'..

Not responding to this after all I've said

No he's not.
You can't lose heaven, but you can lose your rewards, in heaven.

You can lose heaven.
Start a thread.
OSAS is a very dangerous heresy.
It was NEVER taught until about the 1800's.

Not interested, as that discussion is reserved for people who dont understand The Cross of Christ.

So I don't understand the cross?
It's in the NT Behold....
start the thread.

We are in the race because we are born again .
So, the "race' is our discipleship that begins subsequent to our Salvation. This race is not our salvation.. is our "course" we are on that is our discipleship.
Paul said He "finished my course'.....He didnt say He "finished his salvation", and that is because JESUS is His Salvation, and Jesus finished it 2000 yrs ago for us All.

He didn't say he finished his salvation..because the race is ongoing.

You can't stop being born again, but you can become worldly, carnal, and even "fall from Grace".

If you fall from grace and are worldly....
you are no longer born again.
We really would need a thread on this....

The Christian is "in Christ' and "one with God".. forever.
Being born again, is not part time, its a BIRTH...and a birth is COMPLETED.
You can't lose this.....as its completed when you are born again, as that is what it means to be born again.

Well then, you're going to have to explain
John 15:1-5

A carnal person cannot be IN CHRIST or Christ IN HIM.
It's not reconcilable.

 

[Behold]

You're talking about feigning good works.
(easier to reply since my post is just above this time)

Can you show me the Christian on the forum who isn't faking it?

So, what im showing you,........... is that "by their fruit you shall know them"..

See that verse?

Satan read it long before you ever did, ..............and He knows that Christians are "fruit inspectors" so, he has his deceived, FAKE IT... to deceive YOU.

Any Devil can talk about Jesus all day long.

But what they can't do, is preach the Cross or understand it, correctly., as that is THEIR fruit, and that is how you spot heretics on a forum, or in a pulpit, or in a commentary, or on a TV show.

 

[GodsGrace]

Love

Must leave after this...
Love....I think I might have stated this?
Love is in everything Jesus told us to do.
Love covers a multitude of sin.
Faith and hope will disappear,
but love remains forever.
Our love for God is what enables us.

Actually the law of Faith is "Grace".. and that is why the born again are '"not under the Law, but UNDER...Grace".

Grace is the "law" of the KOG.

Whereas "the Law is the power of Sin". "the power of sin is the Law".

I never said we're under the Law.
The law of Moses is forever gone.....
The Moral Law remains.

Right.. Love.

If you love God, If you love Jesus, you will love ... and that Love manifests toward everyone.

Its not 2 separate loves, its one love, for all.

Agreed. Not sure what you mean by 2 separate loves and no time to go back to check.
But, yes, love for all.

Hell is filled with water baptized commandment keepers.

Not sure I agree.
Did these commandment keepers have FAITH?

Faith without works is dead.
Works without faith are dead.

Why are they there.?

Jesus said... "You must be born again".....and they were not.............but they did obsess on doing good works and trying to be like Christ.

So for them, they are "religious but lost".

Doing good works is not being religious.
It's doing what Jesus and Paul taught.
I can't keep repeating.
Could you post some verses that teach that we are not to do good works...or something of this nature??
I've posted many about doing good works.
Here's another one:

Hebrews 13:6
Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

The Cross of Christ


Listen, you want to try to prove that you can lose your salvation, as that is your faith, and im not interested in continuing that discussion.

I said to start a different thread IF you want to continue.
I also don't care to...it's a totally different topic.
You know me...I trust the original church...I don't care for theology that came about 1800 years after Christ.

​

By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear. New Living Translation When God speaks of a “new” covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear. English Standard Version In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Berean Standard Bible By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. Berean Literal Bible In saying, "new," He has made obsolete the first; and that which is growing old and aging is near vanishing. King James Bible In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. New King James Version In that He says, “ A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. New American Standard Bible When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear. NASB 1995 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. NASB 1977 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. Legacy Standard Bible When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. Amplified Bible When God speaks of “A new covenant,” He makes the first one obsolete. And whatever is becoming obsolete (out of use, annulled) and growing old is ready to disappear. Christian Standard Bible By saying a new covenant, he has declared that the first is obsolete. And what is obsolete and growing old is about to pass away. Holman Christian Standard Bible By saying, a new covenant, He has declared that the first is old. And what is old and aging is about to disappear.

'

I did mention this verse in Hebrews.
I hate to sound proudful and I hesitate,
but I taught 7 or 8 Covenants and I KNOW that no covenant EVER abolished a previous one.
To know this you have to get out of the bible and get to theology of the Covenants.
But if you want to accept Hebrews , that's fine by me....
What I'm stating does not have to be accepted.
IF you had replied as to the difference between the OC and the NC,,,this would have been solved.

Also, let me say that by abolished I mean disintergrated, destroyed, of no value,,,,,,,,,
there are elements of the OC that remain....but, indeed, we are under the NC...
but what makes it New?? This is the question....

 

[GodsGrace]

Can you show me the Christian on the forum who isn't faking it?

So, what im showing you,........... is that "by their fruit you shall know them"..

See that verse?

Satan read it long before you ever did, ..............and He knows that Christians are "fruit inspectors" so, he has his deceived, FAKE IT... to deceive YOU.

Any Devil can talk about Jesus all day long.

But what they can't do, is preach the Cross or understand it, correctly., as that is THEIR fruit, and that is how you spot heretics on a forum, or in a pulpit, or in a commentary, or on a TV show.

Too much in a hurry....
what do you mean?
EVERYBODY is faking being a Christian??
EVERYBODY is faking doing good works?

YOU are doing a good work by being on this forum!
Later....