Fear God or Presume acceptance

[Episkopos]

Religious Guarantees, "it is Finished" Jesus said, yet faith seems to be not enough, how dare one trust God, either His promises are true or they are not.

We inherit the promises by being faithful and obedient in the conditions. We are in a race...and only they who run Olympic style are going to obtain. Slackers need not think they will receive anything from God.

Heb. 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

 

[FollowHim]

But you must realize that Jesus was more than a social worker with His heart in the right place. You are still trying to pit righteousness against holiness. You are arguing a part of the truth against it's more profound complimentary part. And this is due to your experience of fraudulent behaviour on the part of they who want very much to be seen as ministers of God.

Because of lawlessness the love of many will wax cold.

So don't negate a higher love connection for the more basic and human approach to love others as ourselves.

James was Jewish through and through. He championed righteousness and the love of the other.

But there is another commandment...a higher calling. To love God will everything we have and are. Do we love a chimera? Do we love Someone unknowable if not for the poor and needy?

Jesus didn't come to make the world better in a social sense. He came to reconcile us to God in relationship. He came to invite us to see where He lives. And we are to receive Him as little children...not as concerned politicians or analysts.

The disciples asked Jesus...where do you live? And in the most profound of statements Jesus replied.....come and see!

"this is due to your experience of fraudulent behaviour on the part of they who want very much to be seen as ministers of God"

It is clear judgementalism is key to your position. We still have prophets and teachers of Gods word, pastors and evangelists, who are definitely not frauds. If you cannot differentiate between those of the elect from the rest, you make yourself just another heretic railing against the enemy.

I am born from pastors, I have had pastors as friends, I have teachers and fellow workers in Christ as brothers and sisters in the walk. And some have fallen into sin, while others testified to their dying day, blessed and being used to His glory.

If you cannot see the difference, then you have missed love and Christ. Jesus is so much more than a social worker, He speaks to who we are in our deepest places, and brings healing and wholeness. And for those so touched, nothing else compares, no matter how we try and express it, it eternally has changed us, to which I testify.

Peter knew this, in his denial and in Jesus's acceptance. It humbled him his whole life, to know Jesus and such grace, and yet fail before him so publicly. But then this shows us, how we aspire so easily to greatness, and the Lord shows our true reality and poverty, while we know He will forgive and restore us again. That is what took Peter's breath away, one evening, one trial, and then such forgiveness. Praise the Lord, we need to know this, really know this deep in us, because it is there is the ultimate intimacy and healing, where no one else goes except us. God bless you

 

[Episkopos]

Someone once summarised this in this way
"Why should I go to hear and learn about theories of being in Christ from people who like to think about it but never experience it what I have experienced it?"

Now it is true that maybe ones experience is unique, superior, a blessing to share with the body of Christ, which is God given and something that will help, born of the Holy Spirit. Or it could be delusion, an experience though uplifting adds nothing to the walk or the cannon of authority or is even in agreement with scripture and may actually be heretical. Paul faced this dilemma but this was his response

When God gave the 10 commandments to Moses He wrote them on 2 tablets. On the one tablet were written the holiness laws (4) concerning loving God and on the other were the other 6 commandments concerning righteousness and loving others as ourselves.

Now when the rich young man asked Jesus what he had to do to inherit eternal life...Jesus told him to obey the commandments...but which ones? The last 6 to be found on the tablet of righteousness (but leaving out any reference to loving God and holiness).

When the young men said...these things I have done since my youth...what MORE is there? Jesus, rather than stating the higher law of holiness simply said...If you would be PERFECT ...sell ALL you have and come follow Me. And this is showing us how we are to forsake this world and go after He who is holy. We fulfill the first tablet of holiness commandments by following Christ.

Loving others is a good foundation to salvation. But entering into an intimate spiritual relationship with the Lord is the purpose of Christ's coming to earth. Paul took that high calling as his own life's mission. And he desired that others would follow him in that. Until...

Col. 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

 

[FollowHim]

But you must realize that Jesus was more than a social worker with His heart in the right place. You are still trying to pit righteousness against holiness. You are arguing a part of the truth against it's more profound complimentary part. And this is due to your experience of fraudulent behaviour on the part of they who want very much to be seen as ministers of God.

Because of lawlessness the love of many will wax cold.

So don't negate a higher love connection for the more basic and human approach to love others as ourselves.

James was Jewish through and through. He championed righteousness and the love of the other.

But there is another commandment...a higher calling. To love God will everything we have and are. Do we love a chimera? Do we love Someone unknowable if not for the poor and needy?

Jesus didn't come to make the world better in a social sense. He came to reconcile us to God in relationship. He came to invite us to see where He lives. And we are to receive Him as little children...not as concerned politicians or analysts.

The disciples asked Jesus...where do you live? And in the most profound of statements Jesus replied.....come and see!

"But you must realize that Jesus was more than a social worker with His heart in the right place"

I have an ongoing discussion with someone lost in identity, gender fluidity, patriarchy etc.
I have seen the lostness, the hatred, the bitterness at society who dared to suggest they were this when they were that.

If you are god, the definer who has insulted and hurt you, and who is right and who is disgusting, you can get very lost, and I mean lost. All ones emotional triggers can ping off, and for the wrong reasons, but the connection to who one truly is has been lost. We are founded on our mum and dad, our need for love and protection, our vulnerability and fear.
Without Jesus bringing peace we are chaos, an anxiety ball without direction or hope, trying to make sense of how we feel and blaming anything which triggers a response.

So being a prostitute is ok if the woman enjoys it and wants it as a career. Or if you desire any sexual expression, that is legitimate, because you are who you are. Unless ofcourse you are a victim. But what if you are a willing victim. The end of this road is death and chaos, literally, breakdowns and suicides, depression and no centre.

This world is destroying itself as it unravels boundaries, the strongest desires it legitimises their expression, as pornography corrupts and entraps the weak, like any other drug, and turns them into a craving monster. In the time of Moses whole cities were dedicated to various sexual practices, so badly infected with diseases to have relations with their women was death.

Yes we have a cleaned up version at the moment, with disease held at bay, but commitment, faithfulness, forgiveness is dying and exploitation and abuse is growing. But in this world of sin and lostness, we are the salt of the earth, showing how life can be lived and balance brought.

But clearly this is not your spiritual warfare, rather a trip to heaven to be with Christ and everything is sorted.
Being on the rough end of life and seeing the cost, I sincerely disagree.

 

[marks]

It is to walk in that other realm where everything is in the light. There is an eternal and timeless joy there. This is the kingdom walk in the presence of God in holiness. From there is no sin at all...it is complete purity and beauty. In the Spirit we experience the peace of Zion. So the power is on us to walk as Jesus walked...in His love. I would be heavily criticized to explain in more detail.

As I think about it, I remember that you did share much more of your testimony at some point in this regard. I don't know that we can so much appreciate other's experiences in the same way we do our own, as each is so unique. So I understand your reticence.

Where I am you shall also be.

This I've related to His coming again. Though there is the passsage As He is, so are we in this world.

I'm particularily interested, if you are, in a discussion on the effect on our lives, in righteousness, holiness, and fruitfulness as we walk in the Spirit in whatever way the Lord fills us to do.

I'm personally interested in the Scriptures that teach us about this, and about Jesus' life as the pattern for ours.

A number of passages occur to me in this regard. To the pure all things are pure. When we walk in the Spirit we see all things in purity, as you mentioned. Walking in the Spirit we can share in the beauty of His holiness, as God is always the same.

I want to come back to these thoughts, but I want to catch up on the thread . . .

Much love!

 

[marks]

This "level of walk" is not one I have heard about from anyone, literally, other than you.
This is a problem, because unless you represent the body of Christ in totality, you cannot be speaking the truth.

"entering into the truth in reality and power"

I do not want to be sarcastic, but is your sharing here the reality of entering into reality and power?
If one is claiming a real experience all believers could experience, literally the meaning of maturity in Christ, where are these folk in history and in scripture? And if after sharing for a period, this experience is not shared by many, it might be a clue that whatever this is, it is something related to your group alone.

If this is a heavenly experience, what happens if a believer does not gain this higher plain? Are they now not saved or just the lower level believer who has not been elevated?

What for me puts this into true apostolic context is this phrase

27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world
James 1:27

James did not talk about this other plain of reality, or being in the Spirit is our purpose and focus. Rather love in action in society.
Unfortunately in my whole time in the church these visionaries come and go, and each one has a different version of what is the difference, but actually coming to terms with love and sharing is stepped over, because it is impossible without the Holy Spirit. God bless you

What this reminds me of is the film Inception, and people finding living in the dream is more real than real life.

Hi FollowHim,

The problem with Inception is that in the ending (spoiler alert!) they never showed whether the top stopped spinning. So the viewer is left with what they think might be true.

Is it real? Or is it not?

I agree with you, that the truth of our relationship with God will not be seen by others in our testimonies of our experiences with Him, rather, that we care for the widow and orphan. That we have love for one another.

We have examples in the Bible of seeing through the veil, as it were, in various degrees. Manifestations of spiritual realities seen in the physical realm. Elisha praying for his servant to see, there are more with us than with them. Peter seeing the angel that freed him. Jesus and the disciples on the mount of transfiguration, of which Peter later wrote, we have a more sure word of prophecy. Those who saw the excellent glory. Who saw the Spirit descend like a dove. Who saw tongues of fire on their heads.

Why can not God give anything He deems fit?

One of my favorites, Day By Day,

He, whose heart is kind beyond all measure,
Gives unto each day what He deems best,
Lovingly its part of pain and pleasure,
Mingling toil with peace and rest.

I have a somewhat different point of view of these things. We can have any number of experiences, and still misunderstand them, misunderstand Scripture, communicate them poorly to others, not realize God's intent in giving such a thing, If it was from God. We can misunderstand the source of our experiences. A bit of undigested pizza maybe?

I don't say these to belittle. Only to give perspective.

I think there is a tendency assume some sort of elevation of those who claim experiences that we consider above and beyond what we expect there to be. And a tendency to assume it's not true. We have no frame of reference.

I think that our experiences are intended to produce something in us, that being to form Christ in us, and that formation is seen in our love for others, and the fruitfulness of our walk.

Having been given a time of walking in the Spirit with the complete annulling of the flesh, I then understood, or so I think, the difference between, as @Episkopos has described, building my character, forming Christ within me, and, walking in the Spirit without thought or effort. Having experienced it profoundly changed my life.

Now, Episkopos came from his experiences with a certain perspective, and I've come from mine with a different perspective, But, does that mean one invalidates the other?

Now obviously the doctrinal disagreements we have don't reconcile to each other, but to say it another way, is it unthinkable that each of us may be right in one area though we may be wrong in another?

I only really like to speak of my experiences with God when there is a specific context, and here, the context is purpose and usefulness.

Receiving these things from God is not, in my opinion, some exaltation. Personally I find it to be quite remedial. To me, to say, God gifted me to walk in the Spirit complete free from all influence and effect of the flesh for about 5 weeks times, which happened, it's like saying I went to summer school because I couldn't get the lesson another way.

No, it wasn't enough for me for God to just tell me, as He does so many others, no, for me, He had to take me by the hand as a little child, and show me, See, here, this is it.

Now, this doesn't make me a better person, or more knowledgeable, more giving, more loving, but it makes me more trusting, and more desirous.

Now I know that by simple trust in Jesus we walk free from the flesh. And now I'm responsible to that. But others I know have that faith without having has this extra bit. They just believed the Word. But for me God have a demonstration of His power, I think, that I may believe.

"You have seen and believed, blessed are those who do not see, and believe!"

Let not many of you be teachers, knowing you will receive a stricter judgment. Not my favorite verse in the Bible if I'm being honest. But it is what it is.

And the fact is, if I've learned nothing else, it is to trust my Savior, that He loves me.

While I do desire that God would do such a thing for me again, that He would simply make the rest of my life that way, I realize, this way, I've learned, am learning, all those impediments to that faith, how they are overcome ( @Willie T ) , that it truly is by faith.

To me, all the visions, visits, touches, all these things, are for one purpose alone, that being to increase our faith that we can live according to His life at all times, trusting, that is, knowing and relying on His ability and intent to make that so in our lives. So the one who does this without these extra experiences is the one who takes the shorter route towards sanctification, being able to trust.

For me, at the end of the day, I can tell you all about my life, but that will not have any power in your life. Depending on how I make it sound, especially if I make it seem like this makes me more grand, more spiritual, more anything, I can defeat God's purpose. It was not, I don't think, to elevate me above my classmates. Only to make me more effective for the purpose God has for me. And most likely because of the spiritual dullard that I was!

I think it is in Jeremiah something that He knows how to bring the precious from the vile. A bruised reed he will not break and a smoking flax he will not put out. So I think this is how we are to be.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

Hi FollowHim,

The problem with Inception is that in the ending (spoiler alert!) they never showed whether the top stopped spinning. So the viewer is left with what they think might be true.

Is it real? Or is it not?

I agree with you, that the truth of our relationship with God will not be seen by others in our testimonies of our experiences with Him, rather, that we care for the widow and orphan. That we have love for one another.

We have examples in the Bible of seeing through the veil, as it were, in various degrees. Manifestations of spiritual realities seen in the physical realm. Elisha praying for his servant to see, there are more with us than with them. Peter seeing the angel that freed him. Jesus and the disciples on the mount of transfiguration, of which Peter later wrote, we have a more sure word of prophecy. Those who saw the excellent glory. Who saw the Spirit descend like a dove. Who saw tongues of fire on their heads.

Why can not God give anything He deems fit?

One of my favorites, Day By Day,

He, whose heart is kind beyond all measure,
Gives unto each day what He deems best,
Lovingly its part of pain and pleasure,
Mingling toil with peace and rest.

I have a somewhat different point of view of these things. We can have any number of experiences, and still misunderstand them, misunderstand Scripture, communicate them poorly to others, not realize God's intent in giving such a thing, If it was from God. We can misunderstand the source of our experiences. A bit of undigested pizza maybe?

I don't say these to belittle. Only to give perspective.

I think there is a tendency assume some sort of elevation of those who claim experiences that we consider above and beyond what we expect there to be. And a tendency to assume it's not true. We have no frame of reference.

I think that our experiences are intended to produce something in us, that being to form Christ in us, and that formation is seen in our love for others, and the fruitfulness of our walk.

Having been given a time of walking in the Spirit with the complete annulling of the flesh, I then understood, or so I think, the difference between, as @Episkopos has described, building my character, forming Christ within me, and, walking in the Spirit without thought or effort. Having experienced it profoundly changed my life.

Now, Episkopos came from his experiences with a certain perspective, and I've come from mine with a different perspective, But, does that mean one invalidates the other?

Now obviously the doctrinal disagreements we have don't reconcile to each other, but to say it another way, is it unthinkable that each of us may be right in one area though we may be wrong in another?

I only really like to speak of my experiences with God when there is a specific context, and here, the context is purpose and usefulness.

Receiving these things from God is not, in my opinion, some exaltation. Personally I find it to be quite remedial. To me, to say, God gifted me to walk in the Spirit complete free from all influence and effect of the flesh for about 5 weeks times, which happened, it's like saying I went to summer school because I couldn't get the lesson another way.

No, it wasn't enough for me for God to just tell me, as He does so many others, no, for me, He had to take me by the hand as a little child, and show me, See, here, this is it.

Now, this doesn't make me a better person, or more knowledgeable, more giving, more loving, but it makes me more trusting, and more desirous.

Now I know that by simple trust in Jesus we walk free from the flesh. And now I'm responsible to that. But others I know have that faith without having has this extra bit. They just believed the Word. But for me God have a demonstration of His power, I think, that I may believe.

"You have seen and believed, blessed are those who do not see, and believe!"

Let not many of you be teachers, knowing you will receive a stricter judgment. Not my favorite verse in the Bible if I'm being honest. But it is what it is.

And the fact is, if I've learned nothing else, it is to trust my Savior, that He loves me.

While I do desire that God would do such a thing for me again, that He would simply make the rest of my life that way, I realize, this way, I've learned, am learning, all those impediments to that faith, how they are overcome ( @Willie T ) , that it truly is by faith.

To me, all the visions, visits, touches, all these things, are for one purpose alone, that being to increase our faith that we can live according to His life at all times, trusting, that is, knowing and relying on His ability and intent to make that so in our lives. So the one who does this without these extra experiences is the one who takes the shorter route towards sanctification, being able to trust.

For me, at the end of the day, I can tell you all about my life, but that will not have any power in your life. Depending on how I make it sound, especially if I make it seem like this makes me more grand, more spiritual, more anything, I can defeat God's purpose. It was not, I don't think, to elevate me above my classmates. Only to make me more effective for the purpose God has for me. And most likely because of the spiritual dullard that I was!

I think it is in Jeremiah something that He knows how to bring the precious from the vile. A bruised reed he will not break and a smoking flax he will not put out. So I think this is how we are to be.

Much love!

Agreed. To add this in...that when we speak of the bible there are many parts that speak specifically of the elevated walk...a favourite theme of Paul. But there are also many references to the kind of faith and faithfulness required so that whether we are present or absent from His presence...we may do all that is pleasing to God.

The issue is that people are not being careful to distinguish the peaks from the valleys. The visitations from the desert walks. And by doing that they go astray with the notion of a "positional" attainment...which are doctrines made up by people without the experience in reality...to explain away the higher call.

So a proviso for all Christians is to make room for the full gospel that is in holiness...and very high calling indeed. And that takes some HUMILITY. Otherwise the people who have not experienced the higher walk will rail against they who do and hate them as Cain hated his own brother. And this is not a small or unusual thing.

There is a pride in men that are yet unbroken...that have not passed through the cross and into the kingdom life. Among these the word of the Lord leads to iniquity in that what is good is belittled to maintain a promise to they who yet remain in the flesh...by taking the truth and power away from the grace of God in order to justify a walk that has not yet attained to the holy walk in Christ.

So then the less mature brethren risk not only not progressing...but becoming an enemy of the cross in order to preserve a perceived promise through a grace that is taken for granted while still only having experienced the walk in the flesh...albeit with faith added.

So we need humility and the fear of the Lord to head off iniquity at the pass.

 

[marks]

The issue is that people are not being careful to distinguish the peaks from the valleys. The visitations from the desert walks. And by doing that they go astray with the notion of a "positional" attainment...which are doctrines made up by people without the experience in reality...to explain away the higher call.

Don't you think, though, that in these 'desert walks', that we rely on God by faith just the same? That even when I don't "feel" like a child of God, that maybe I still am?

Much love!

 

[mjrhealth]

We inherit the promises by being faithful and obedient in the conditions. We are in a race...and only they who run Olympic style are going to obtain. Slackers need not think they will receive anything from God.

Heb. 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

I am in no race. a race implies one wins and one looses, if one wins a race one has much to Lord over those that loose, we are all equal in Gods eyes. And yet many have seeing God, met Christ, I have a friend who has even sat in Gods lap, yet none of them fit the condition you claim to have obtained. In the end of it all, no one will stand before God and boast. Not one.

 

[mjrhealth]

The Lord's grace is sufficient to fulfill the commands of Jesus to 'Love as I have loved" And the scandalous "Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect."

What5 makes it so "scandalous", seems Grace is the most "scandalous" thing of all, as it "Faith in God to believe His promises". Seems the whole of christianity has forsaken grace to "prove" themselves worthy by there own works, that in itself is the basis for all mens religions.

Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

As for that narrow path, few walk it, and those who do, have nothing to boast of but Christ Jesus and His good works. They may not fit your bill but they do His, and He is the one that matters.

 

[FollowHim]

Agreed. To add this in...that when we speak of the bible there are many parts that speak specifically of the elevated walk...a favourite theme of Paul. But there are also many references to the kind of faith and faithfulness required so that whether we are present or absent from His presence...we may do all that is pleasing to God.

The issue is that people are not being careful to distinguish the peaks from the valleys. The visitations from the desert walks. And by doing that they go astray with the notion of a "positional" attainment...which are doctrines made up by people without the experience in reality...to explain away the higher call.

So a proviso for all Christians is to make room for the full gospel that is in holiness...and very high calling indeed. And that takes some HUMILITY. Otherwise the people who have not experienced the higher walk will rail against they who do and hate them as Cain hated his own brother. And this is not a small or unusual thing.

There is a pride in men that are yet unbroken...that have not passed through the cross and into the kingdom life. Among these the word of the Lord leads to iniquity in that what is good is belittled to maintain a promise to they who yet remain in the flesh...by taking the truth and power away from the grace of God in order to justify a walk that has not yet attained to the holy walk in Christ.

So then the less mature brethren risk not only not progressing...but becoming an enemy of the cross in order to preserve a perceived promise through a grace that is taken for granted while still only having experienced the walk in the flesh...albeit with faith added.

So we need humility and the fear of the Lord to head off iniquity at the pass.

Lets get real. The apostles are writing letters to you and me. They request us to walk an upright life, to love and support our fellow believers and to stay in fellowship with a praising prayer full walk with Jesus. Along this path some do have special revelations, a closeness which others do not experience, and amen.

Once these spiritual experiences become the dominating factor, it has gone wrong. It is what led to hermits and secluded communities to experience dwelling with God. Unfortunately the Lord called us to be in the world but not of it. What is the point of victory in a secluded isolated life with no pressures other than yourself. It certainly suites recluses because that is their ideal state, but not normal social creatures.

And go into any church and you will find trauma and issues at all levels where ministry, strength and faith are needed. It is so much easier to say if only these folk knew of the elevated way, these problems would not exist. Look at the corinthian church, full of the Holy Spirit, yet people were dying because they dishonoured the Lord.

Now I know to say this is preaching the status quo in your words, but in truth you have no answer to this, which is why things are harder than they need to be. If people are prepared to open their hearts and let the light in, to confess their aggression, unforgiveness and bitterness, then people can become the vessels God hopes they will come. The Lord will never force this situation, it is always as people desire and ask.

But to you brothers and sisters, we stand in the Lord and know His presence, Amen, let us press on towards the goal, the upward calling in Christ Jesus to walk as He walked and to know the peace that passes understanding, God bless you

 

[charity]

People have debated justification for millenia.

It comes down to this...God justifies whom he sees fit to. So a person may worry over that...but it is God who justifies. No one knows who has been finally received or cut off. So we are all in the same race.

Then there is the EXPERIENCE of justification. God gives His Spirit to they whom He is preparing to run the race of faith. Of course there is NO final justification in this life for a life not lived out. (Doctrinal aberrations notwithstanding)

How do we know we have a CONTINUAL justification?

Rom. 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

It's all about the life...the resurrection life that we can walk in now to know His pleasure.

We walk by faith. And that means we trust God with the result of His judgments. He sees fit or not to translate a believer into His kingdom...or we remain in the wilderness with nothing but our faith in God to sustain us. So is that faith towards our thinking we are saved? No that is selfish. Our faith is in God not our own status. You don't move mountains (or God) by having an assumed place in heaven by a religious belief. We can do nothing of ourselves. We can know nothing of ourselves.

Only God can justify. All other assurances are self-righteous assumptions.

But people hate that way. :) They want religious guarantees or they won't do anything. But that's not faith.

'Therefore being justified by faith,
we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand,
and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.'
(Romans 5:1)

Hello @Episkopos,

Was it self-righteous assumption on the part of Paul to say what he does in Romans 5:1? Is the assurance he manifests of being justified by faith, of having peace with God, and boldness of access, by faith, into the grace wherein he stands shear selfishness? Is it presumption on his part to rejoice in hope of the glory of God?

Is he wrong to desire in Colossians 2:2, that those to whom he wrote should come into' the riches of the full assurance of understanding'? Or in Hebrews 10:22, to urge his listeners to, draw near to God 'in full assurance of faith.' (KJV)

No! It is not self-righteous assumption, or presumption to be assured of your salvation. That is what God desires that we should have: absolute and unequivocal confidence in Him to fulfil all His promises to us, in Christ Jesus. For He is faithful.

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Episkopos]

Lets get real. The apostles are writing letters to you and me. They request us to walk an upright life, to love and support our fellow believers and to stay in fellowship with a praising prayer full walk with Jesus. Along this path some do have special revelations, a closeness which others do not experience, and amen.

Once these spiritual experiences become the dominating factor, it has gone wrong. It is what led to hermits and secluded communities to experience dwelling with God. Unfortunately the Lord called us to be in the world but not of it. What is the point of victory in a secluded isolated life with no pressures other than yourself. It certainly suites recluses because that is their ideal state, but not normal social creatures.

And go into any church and you will find trauma and issues at all levels where ministry, strength and faith are needed. It is so much easier to say if only these folk knew of the elevated way, these problems would not exist. Look at the corinthian church, full of the Holy Spirit, yet people were dying because they dishonoured the Lord.

Now I know to say this is preaching the status quo in your words, but in truth you have no answer to this, which is why things are harder than they need to be. If people are prepared to open their hearts and let the light in, to confess their aggression, unforgiveness and bitterness, then people can become the vessels God hopes they will come. The Lord will never force this situation, it is always as people desire and ask.

But to you brothers and sisters, we stand in the Lord and know His presence, Amen, let us press on towards the goal, the upward calling in Christ Jesus to walk as He walked and to know the peace that passes understanding, God bless you

No one is forcing you to open your mind and heart to eternal things. But I am asking if you would do so...leave room for more of God and more of His revelation.

 

[FollowHim]

No one is forcing you to open your mind and heart to eternal things. But I am asking if you would do so...leave room for more of God and more of His revelation.

There is something that is fundamental to life, and it is the walking with Jesus in simplicity and truth, not some grand revelation or experience. I have heard and been with so many fakes and people who believe they have something, but actually it is nothing.

You clearly have the idea God wants to reveal something new to me that will change everything.
And at this I laugh. Jesus is all in all in the cross and in His love. Unfortunately I have found when people get escatic experiences it puffs them up, and everyone else must have this because it changes everything. Faith changes everything, praising God in the prison cell expecting to die in the morning. And Paul and Barnabus were set free by an angel.

I think this reality is not something you have experienced or considered. As a teenager I faced potential death, following the Lord, in the middle of the Iranian revolution. I just walked with Him in His love. That was enough for me. And this love is eternal, or maybe you have not read, prophecy ceases, knowledge passes away but love is eternal.

From your sharing saying social work is sharing love, I know, literally know, you have just scrapped the surface of love.
When someone winds you up, pushes you around, sees what you are made of, and you see they just want a fight, you can calmly respond with facts and nothing more. The problem with domination, is if you ignore it, it is just pompous parading. When you meet the person beneath, the worries, the panic, and unstable winds, there is no excuse the emotions are their own not the other persons, they have the problem.

The problem in life we project and think what we feel is the empathetic feeling of another. But what if it is our own feeling, and there is no trigger. Then we are wrong, we have got things out of step, we have failed. Love and the light does this for people, because salt and light and being wheat in a world of chaff matters. Yes chaos rules their life, one day high, the next day depressed, stressed, angry followed by friendly then irritation. But get too close and you become wrapped up in the chaos.

But Jesus brings His peace, His reality, His victory. Now there is nothing deeper or more profound than this. This level of self awareness and seeing others is a true gift of maturity, so profound many say I am lying, until they see how I respond to their provocation. The trouble with sin is it lies that things are more complex and difficult than they are, where repentance is the key, being cleansed and purified the beginning of true freedom.

 

[Nancy]

Don't you think, though, that in these 'desert walks', that we rely on God by faith just the same? That even when I don't "feel" like a child of God, that maybe I still am?

Much love!

Amen,
"Don't you think, though, that in these 'desert walks', that we rely on God by faith just the same?" <---IMPO, I would say we are to rely on Him even more so during the valleys. :)

 

[FollowHim]

No one is forcing you to open your mind and heart to eternal things. But I am asking if you would do so...leave room for more of God and more of His revelation.

Sadly I realised what sin is in this situation. I have walked with the Lord for over 40 years. Love has been my theme. When I say theme, my all in all. It is God's heart, His passion, who He is.

Now escatic always sounds appealing, the other that you do not know, which will change everything. But the reverse is also true, it says what you have and know in Christ and is Christ is not enough. But this is the eternal walk, the walk of faith and salvation, the reason for the cross, the deepest any man can go, so to go after this dream, this phantasy would be a sin and grievous against my Lord.

A pastor wanted to know about astrology so got an astrologer to draw up their chart. What they did not appreciate is authority and Kingdoms. The enemy cannot show the future but he can force it on the lost. This pastor found the predictions came true, until he repented and came back to the Lord.

Sin is subtle, and we easily delude ourselves. Greed. What I have is not enough, but these guys have so much more I need it. It is the dishonour of the blessing we have to God is our sin, and the demand this other would change everything. That is the lie. God is enough. He is the King of Kings. His rule is eternal and He listens to you.

But our actions betray this reality. Sin shows its head so simply. God loves you and blesses you, start living it in the world of excess and chaos as a light in the darkness. God bless you.

 

[FollowHim]

Ironic. An experience can be transformational. For that person they create around them ideas that make the event the focus of everything.

Muhammed was one such guy. There have literally been thousands, the more extreme are Jesus come back. All one can do is listen and then speak reality, and then leave alone.

God cares about our actions, our stray words, our hearts, our walk, each detail, no matter how small. He counts the hairs on our head. This is our focus, not dreamers. Our ministry is to the abused, the needy, the dying, the empty, the unloved, the broken, the victims.

Here love speaks were death seems to be the only way out. People are lost, the more lost the more they fight. Where are the people of love who know how to connect? They are God's people, powerful, unstoppable, seeing need and speaking to it. Amen

 

[farouk]

Amen,
"Don't you think, though, that in these 'desert walks', that we rely on God by faith just the same?" <---IMPO, I would say we are to rely on Him even more so during the valleys. :)

@Nancy Psalm 23 speaks of such a valley...

 

[marks]

Once these spiritual experiences become the dominating factor, it has gone wrong.

Very much in agreement here.

But should we also discount the special things God gives us? Why should we be closed to whatever God may do with us?

An experience can be transformational. For that person they create around them ideas that make the event the focus of everythin

Yes, that can happen. But that doesn't mean that something was or wasn't from God, or that it has to be that way.

I'd love to return to the state that God gave to me with a Word, where the flesh was literally made completely ineffectual. It was like it wasn't there. Only the Spirit. A beautiful life.

But then, I believe the reason God gave that to me was to increase my faith. I am returning, have returned, for the most part, by the learning of faith.

I honestly did not think such a life could be for me, until God showed me by letting me live it. And then I knew. That knowledge is faith. I believed it to be true.

Now, I can tell you that if only you could have the same experience as me you too could trust Him that way. But that's not the reality as I see it.

For me this was, I think, remedial. Because I didn't learn or discover anything that wasn't written in the Bible. But I didn't believe it could be real. I could say, "Hey, I know what it's like to live completely sanctified!" Of course, that's only so far as I know. But the reality is, I think, that I'm so messed up that God had to use this extreme measure to accomplish in me what others can receive by singing Jesus Loves Me.

I still have trouble believing that God loves me as He does. It just seems so incredible! But it's true! And resting in that truth is the faith to live in the Spirit.

To the one who is able to simply believe the Word of God, that we have victory over sin, that the flesh is made powerless, that we remain in fellowship with God at all times, then there is no need for this experience to happen, they have the faith already!

Now, I could try to "sell" you on my experience, Hey, this is what happened to me, you should want it to happen to you too!" But I see no usefulness or even possiblity of that.

What was a massive display of power in my life I fear only sounds like boasting when I talk about it. "So that makes you a better person than me?" I know it doesn't.

Personally, I think that God did this because of what a mess I am/was! Surgery for the sick, the healthy don't need it.

It can't be about returning to what was. Paul wrote about forgetting what is behind, leaning into what is ahead.

As we try to attain to the resurrection. To be made conformable to Jesus' death. We've already joined Jesus in His death, now we need to be conformed to that death. We've joined Jesus in His resurrection, now we need to attain to the resurrection life.

No, the only usefulness to my experience that I can see is to promote faith in me, so that I will believe what God has said in His Word, and live accordingly. The just shall live by faith. We are walking by faith, not be sight. So everything is about producing the life of faith.

And the life of faith, in my thinking, this is the true elevated state that God is bringing all of us into, through a variety of different means.

Sin is subtle, and we easily delude ourselves. Greed. What I have is not enough, but these guys have so much more I need it. It is the dishonour of the blessing we have to God is our sin, and the demand this other would change everything. That is the lie. God is enough. He is the King of Kings. His rule is eternal and He listens to you.

This is one way to look at it, to demand from God something more. "Not until you bless me!" I think Jacob said, when he was called Israel. Though it was God's intent to do just that.

Yes, we can be envious of what others have. We can be greedy for more. I am greedy for more! I want more of God's life to be my life! I want it! I want it! Do I dishonor God when I want to see all vestiges of sin eradicated from my life?

Did I dishonor God when I "looked Him in the eye and said" I want health, and You know what I mean! You said to ask, I'm asking! My body was unhealthy, my brain was unhealthy, and my heart was unhealthy, my life was stalled, worse. Did I dishonor what God had done so far? Or was this the fruit He was producing? My determination to receive more from Him?

All I know is that everything in my life turned upside down. Everything was shaken to the core. Everything was being destroyed. And in the midst of the process, when I thought I'd been through the worst, but had only really scratched the surface, God gave me a walk I could only dream of.

Unfortunately I have found when people get escatic experiences it puffs them up, and everyone else must have this because it changes everything.

The thing I want to express is that it changed everything for me. But that doesn't mean the benefit is transferable. What is transferable is that I can point to the Scriptures with absolute conviction and say that it is by faith in Jesus that we have access into the grace in which we stand.

My one dissatisfaction in those days was that I had no way to share what had happened. There is a friend of mine whom I love who has similar problems as mine, and what could I tell him? "Well, God did it for me, I hope He does it for you too!" That didn't seem like much to me. Not enough. I wanted to be able to communicate - share - this life with others. I asked that He make it so I could. And that walk evaporated.

Now, I really only have my guess of what God's ultimate plan with me is. Well, to make my Christlike, but how?

Give me a taste. Let me know it's real.

I'm glad He did, because not long after that, the next stage of my restoration, was the beginning of my depression, a very deep pit, and I spent probably about the same length of time in agony wishing I was just dead.

Please don't get the idea I'm seeking anything other than to supply the context in which God worked. I love everything He's done for me, even if some of it wasn't easy.

But this "elevated walk", if you will, gave me something to hold on to. What I actually see it as, is a Gift of Faith. God gave me faith to overcome. At least, that's the best I can describe my thoughts on this.

It's really difficult to talk about all this. Clinical depression was the inevitable result of fixing my life. Mal-adaptive brain chemistry was being managed by the range of emotions such as fear and anger and shame and the like. Restoring my mental environment to peace and hope and security does not supply the serotonin and such that my brain is missing, and depression is the result. But it wasn't the result then. That was miraculous.

But now I know that by trusting in Jesus, all of this is mine - by faith. Freedom from sin. Freedom from the flesh. While I feel the physical effects of depression, even the emotional effects, yet I stand back from this, looking on, choosing to trust in Jesus, and am free from it, even while it is happening. And I know that Jesus can suspend any of the effects from my body, the flesh, at any time that He wants to.

I know that faith in Jesus opens us to receive from Him, and He is able to transcend everything. But He doesn't always.

I look back to a day about 20 years ago, when I prayed and said to God that I realized I wan't 100% for Him, and that I wanted to be. His immediate response was, I think, that He spoke plainly and directly into my mind, He told me something, and I didn't realize for a long time that this was the beginning. He began a process that day which would take decades before it would even be seen, much less to bare fruit.

But Jesus brings His peace, His reality, His victory. Now there is nothing deeper or more profound than this. This level of self awareness and seeing others is a true gift of maturity, so profound many say I am lying, until they see how I respond to their provocation. The trouble with sin is it lies that things are more complex and difficult than they are, where repentance is the key, being cleansed and purified the beginning of true freedom.

To my way of thinking, repentance is what begins our walk in Christ. Repentance is the forsaking of the flesh mind in the confession of my sin, and receiving the Mind of Christ.

Humilty is the watchword.

To be humble to receive without reservation whatever God puts into my life, whether agony, or ecstasy. Shall we not receive from Him adversity as well as blessing? I let Him be the judge of what is good for me. I feel certain that all out and childlike trust in Jesus is everying I need, all else comes from that.

Humilty is to allow God to do with others also as He sees fit. I don't have to be concerned, only to try to give a gift whenever I am able, so that is what I try to do. I'll offer such as I've received from Him, and if He wishes to use it to your benefit then praise Him!

Sorry for going so long! I've been reading your posts over and over, and thinking.

Much love!

 

[FollowHim]

@marks Amen. I share as it comes. You share what you have experienced. What I have learnt is God deals with as it is needed.
I hear your heart, the Lord's healing and carrying you. When we mature we are called to carry more for others.

A strange thing for me was to know hurt made me defensive and lash out. When Jesus came in and love flowed I can now take pain and minister grace.

The same problems bring a different response. We are all on our journeys, and being in the light helps all. So God bless you and thanks for sharing such truth and reality.