Fear God or Presume acceptance

[CharismaticLady]

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Exactly! But this is now, not after death.

 

[CharismaticLady]

To be clear, I believe that justification marks the beginning of our salvation. That before justification, we have no standing whatsoever with God other than another condemned human. That we are justified by God, and born from Him. We are innocent, righteous, and holy.

I agree, IF you are talking about our past sins. 2 Peter 1:9

 

[CharismaticLady]

Well of course He didn't! That's the point of it all.

:)

Right, but that means we don't willfully commit sin; it is no longer in our nature.

 

[marks]

Exactly! But this is now, not after death.

?

Here's what it means to me. There is an old man, and there is a new man. We are to put off the old man, and put on the new man. The new man is created by God, is patterned after Himself, being righteous, and truly holy. And yes, this is about this life here in this world.

Are we on the same page?

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

?

Here's what it means to me. There is an old man, and there is a new man. We are to put off the old man, and put on the new man. The new man is created by God, is patterned after Himself, being righteous, and truly holy. And yes, this is about this life here in this world.

Are we on the same page?

Much love!

Yes. It is called walking in the Spirit. And we are warned to stay in the Spirit and not to grieve or quench the Spirit. Committing sins of the flesh is quenching the Spirit.

 

[Helen]

So, everyone here is sin free in and of themselves???

God shows otherwise.
Prov 6:16- 23
16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. "

Then throw your stones you who are perfect .

 

[CharismaticLady]

So, everyone here is sin free in and of themselves???

Not at all. I was powerless before Christ gave me His Spirit to walk in.

 

[marks]

I see holiness only in the presence of God.

That we may be partakers of HIS holiness. As such holiness is only found in God. God is unique. So then to become holy...sanctified...one must enter INTO His presence.

Curious . . . how do you understand this part:

Ephesians 4
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

 

[Helen]

Not at all. I was powerless before Christ gave me His Spirit to walk in.

Hi, so are you the judge of whether you had a bad or proud thought in the day...and your heart is pure always? And/or if God agrees with your judgment of yourself?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Hi, so are you the judge of whether you had a bad or proud thought in the day...and your heart is pure always? And/or if God agrees with your judgment of yourself?

The Spirit takes us from glory to glory. He will complete what He started.

 

[Helen]

The Spirit takes us from glory to glory. He will complete what He started.

You didn't answer. Who is the judge of how well you are doing in not sinning?
Would not even you belief that you are doing well prove to be self righteousness?

I say I in myself can never walk as He wishes, neither can I live perfect in thought as in No anger, no irritation , no judgmental thoughts..

The ONLY way I am not a sinner in because I am hidden "in Him" and His grace...and as I endeavour to humbly walk in the Light, His blood cleanses me from all sin. Anything that we think we can do or have done to justify ourselves in His eyes is presumption. He alone is the measuring rod, not us.

 

[marks]

Could you say we HAVE died?

I agree, a person must die to self. Otherwise, They will never seek Christ or come to him.

But, have we not been immersed in Christ? And through that immersion also, have been made alive in Christ?

(PS your translation, it says if we be dead. should it not say, if we have died?)

Hi EG,

This is quoting the King James.

Have we died? I think the answer is absolutely yes, that is, if we are in Christ, if we are reborn, we have joined Christ in His death, verse 6, our old man is crucifed with Him. I have been crucified together with Christ, yet I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me.

We have died, and been recreated, new creatures. We were in Adam's line, really, in Adam. Now we are in Christ. So instead sharing in the destiny of the first man, we share the destiny of the last man.

When it says, last man, is that because no more humans would be born? No. In this sense, there are only 2 men. The first man, and the last man. Adam, the firstfruits of the creation, those of the earth, earthy. Jesus, the firstfruits of the new humanity.

Two trees, one according to good and evil, one according to life. Two trees bearing fruit, each after their own kind. But only one is eternal.

If the man remain in Adam he will die the death promised to Adam. But when that man dies immersed into Christ in His death, we are made alive, a new person, who didn't exist before, the new man alive in Christ, to live the eternal life promised to Christ.

Paul wrote that God promised eternal life before the world began. So it strikes me to ask, promised to who? I think promised to Christ, His sacrifice foreordained before the foundation of the world.

I don't think we do the dying to self. I think God does that. Where it speaks of us being crucified, it's passive voice, happens to us.

But ours is confession, homologomen to "say the same as God", and repentance, metanoia, the "after-mind", or, an exchanged mind. We confess, and repent, to have a new mind about things, and God then justifies us in death and rebirth, and life begins.

I feel certain you understand these things. It's simply joy to speak of them!

Much love!

PS . . .

I forgot I hadn't checked the translation, If we be dead.

I was looking at this:

If yet we from death together with Christ we are believing that and we shall be living together with Him. Here, "we from death" I notice is active voice, we are doing that.

Notice too where King James translates "he that is dead is freed from sin", "freed" is from the the same word as justify. But it's not a declaration of justification, those we certainly have that. There are many places to teach that. In this place, we are justified "away from" sin. We are in Christ, and in Christ is no sin.

This point culminates in verse 11 as God instucts us to "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."

I really do love dwelling on these things!

 

[CharismaticLady]

You didn't answer. Who is the judge of how well you are doing in not sinning?
Would not even you belief that you are doing well prove to be self righteousness?

I say I in myself can never walk as He wishes, neither can I live perfect in thought as in No anger, no irritation , no judgmental thoughts..

The ONLY way I am not a sinner in because I am hidden "in Him" and His grace...and as I endeavour to humbly walk in the Light, His blood cleanses me from all sin. Anything that we think we can do or have done to justify ourselves in His eyes is presumption. He alone is the measuring rod, not us.

Actually, I can judge by my conscience. When I have a clear conscience, I know I am keeping His commandments and am pleasing in His sight. 1 John 3:21-24.

You shouldn't call yourself a sinner if you've been given the power to stop. That is the whole reason He gave you His Spirit (if He has already). He calls us children of God, not sinners. Only those who willfully sin are slaves of sin, and not His children.

 

[marks]

We are no longer called sinners because we DON'T SIN,

You have your own definition of sin, just the same, where some sins are not the same as others, and some kill, and some don't. But sin kills. The soul that sins shall die, and that which is not of faith is sin.

Let's be fair about this.

In all honesty, I don't question your testimony for a moment. I believe your life is a gift from God, and it's a good walk, and you are blessed.

When we walk in all faith in Christ, we have no consciousness of sins. It's not to say that sins aren't there, but we're not actively engaged in them. Though in an unthinking moment we could inadvertantly do what we should not.

God gives to each a measure of faith. And He gives gifts of faith. Do all have the same gifts? All have a measure, and to some He gives gifts. And it sounds to me that God had given you a good faith.

Just the same . . . we are no longer sinners because we are a new humanity in Christ. In Adam all die. In Christ we are made alive. Remain in Adam and share his destiny. But . . . transfer, by death and resurection into Christ, and we share in Christ.

The defining truth about us is not found in what we do, it's found in who we are. Are we children of Adam? Or are we children of God?

By your definitions, I am not a child of God. I don't mean to be rude or anything, but seriously. Not reborn, do not know the Creator God, Never Met Jesus, still in my sins, in my natural man life. Am I saying I'm a "gross sinner"? Well, all sins are gross. But there it is.

Either we are justified by God, or not. The Bible is too clear on that, sin and death by Adam, and justification and life by Christ. And I'm neither of them.

I think that must be the bottom line. My rebirth is invalidated if I commit a sin.

Though I do believe I am born again, and He who began that good work will in fact complete it.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes. It is called walking in the Spirit. And we are warned to stay in the Spirit and not to grieve or quench the Spirit. Committing sins of the flesh is quenching the Spirit.

This new man, who and what is he?

 

[CharismaticLady]

The defining truth about us is not found in what we do, it's found in who we are. Are we children of Adam? Or are we children of God?

I agree and disagree. If the Spirit of God dwells within us, then by obeying, that defines what I do. So what I do defines me. But it is solely by His power.

If I go against the Spirit within me, that is quenching the Spirit, and I can again become sin's slave. Romans 6:16. If I don't repent, the wages of sin is death. Only the righteous and holy will enter heaven.

By your definitions, I am not a child of God. I don't mean to be rude or anything, but seriously. Not reborn, do not know the Creator God, Never Met Jesus, still in my sins, in my natural man life. Am I saying I'm a "gross sinner"? Well, all sins are gross. But there it is.

What do you mean you are not reborn? The end of this post says you believe you are born again???

How is the health of your conscience? Do you go to bed with a clear conscience every night, or not?

1 John 3:21-24.

If it's about what we do, then by our strong right arm we provide for our own salvation. I don't believe that. Either we are justified by God, or not. The Bible is too clear on that, sin and death by Adam, and justification and life by Christ. And I'm neither of them.

We are justified and cleansed from our past sins. Not our past, present and future sins as some teach unscripturally. The way we are justified is through repentance.

Now, as I've always said, it is not "by our strong right arm." That is still weak in comparison with what is acceptable to God. Only Him INSIDE us giving us His own power can make us sanctified. So what are you going to do about it?

Though I do believe I am born again, and He who began that good work will in fact complete it.

He will complete our glorification. But we must first be justified and sanctified through our own repentance.

 

[CharismaticLady]

This new man, who and what is he?

Romans 8:9
Acts 2:38

The new man is the person who has the Spirit of God dwelling in him making us a new creature.

What do you think?

 

[Nancy]

How do you understand this part?

Ephesians 4
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Another thing I'm wondering, when you say, the state we die in, what does that mean? Do you mean in like an Ezekiel 18 way?

24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Like that?

Much love!

"24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."

So much for OSAS

 

[Helen]

Actually, I can judge by my conscience. When I have a clear conscience, I know I am keeping His commandments and am pleasing in His sight. 1 John 3:21-24.

You shouldn't call yourself a sinner if you've been given the power to stop. That is the whole reason He gave you His Spirit (if He has already). He calls us children of God, not sinners. Only those who willfully sin are slaves of sin, and not His children.

I agree with what @marks wrote in #91 which is not what you are saying.
You say that 'you' can do it in God's strength. ( which we can indeed only live in Him)
I am saying that however good we 'think' we are doing it is suspect, who are we!! And however good our conscience tells us we are doing ...can still ever never measure up to Gods requirement for perfection.... That is still having some measure faith in self, and your own judgment of your conscience etc.
I don't , ....any 'judgment' I attempt to have, will always fall short it is still of the flesh.
Being hidden in Him is my only hope of final victory over the flesh....we are told to never trust in the flesh, ...you obviously believe that what your conscience tells you and what you 'hear' is pure truth.

So we will always disagree on this subject.

Bless you Helen.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I agree with what @marks wrote in #91 which is not what you are saying.
You say that 'you' can do it in God's strength. ( which we can indeed only live in Him)
I am saying that however good we 'think' we are doing it is suspect, who are we!! And however good our conscience tells us we are doing ...can still ever never measure up to Gods requirement for perfection.... That is still having some measure faith in self, and your own judgment of your conscience etc.
I don't , ....any 'judgment' I attempt to have, will always fall short it is still of the flesh.
Being hidden in Him is my only hope of final victory over the flesh....we are told to never trust in the flesh, ...you obviously believe that what your conscience tells you and what you 'hear' is pure truth.

So we will always disagree on this subject.

Bless you Helen.

Did you even read the text I gave you? Did you believe it?

21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

But there is another cause for assurance in this text which you probably won't believe either, and that is all of my prayers are answered, and I don't mean "no." LOL

 

[mjrhealth]

All people are victorious IN Christ. That's the point of the gospel. The victory is to enter in. That is salvation from sin. What is false is to claim to be in Christ and also sin.

So to be really gutsy and truthful....just say that you are a student trying to get into Christ.

There is no prize for losing a race.

Run to win.

There no race to win, and I already have the prize, Jesus Christ. If there is a race to be won that means only one can win and others can loose.
But, this isnt about Christ and what He had done and is doing, its about religion, and how it enslaves men, it about the pirde of man.

We have catholism and other religions, that tell there congregations they must come confess there sins to a priest, who is not from God, and has no authority to forgive any mans sins, and in so doing , undermine all the works that Christ has done and like pharaoh keep Gods people from Him,
than we have religions and the religious like the SDA, who sit and argue the law, the law, and like you want to tell everyone else that we, all purposely sin, but them selves like you refuse to admit that they sin the same as everyone else, but they by choosing the law have already condemned themselves, but we know what Jesus said of them do we not.

Mat_23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

this part

Mat_23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

and this part

Luk_18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

Mat_6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

but Jesus Himself

Luk 19:7 And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.

He was unashamed to counted among the sinner, He had nothing to hide, unlike some, but God can see though mens disguises, He is not blind , though men seem to think they like Adam and Eve can hide from Him.

Christ even " became" sin for us.

So all those who are troubled by sin, understand this, Christ died once, for all sin, from the beginning to the end, let no man condemn you for being imperfect in your flesh, Christ condemned sin to the flesh, He did not come to save the vessel but that what it contains, the new wine, that you received when you became the New creation in Him, God no longer sees the man the sinner but Christ and His righteousness, No man will boast before God, no matter how much they may boast upon this earth.

Bless you all. Time is short look up, turn to Him, there is no other way