Faith healings don't happen anymore; can you prove otherwise? (Either the age has passed or it has not)

[amadeus]

Also @Wynona, yes I did start this thread and I do believe that the gifts of the spirit have ceased, but that doesn't exclude loving those who say it still exist, but there was a historical narrative tried to be addressed but it always gets looked over, and always relapses back to the surface of...

"Jesus said so" therefore it is, or must be so.

I dont doubt Jesus, but the people he was talking to is very specific, and it would be different it if had my name in there or if it had those who live in America or other Nations, are able to do such and such, which I do not find in the scripture anywhere.

Its only assumed to be possible.

My friend, I believe that God caused the Bible to be written and the NT was not only for that handful of disciples who lived during the time of Jesus' physical ministry nor prior the Pentecost described in Acts chapter 2, nor before the Reformation hundreds of years later. His purpose was for you, and for me, and all of us today, also to be able to read and hopefully brought the Life within us... the Living Word of God. You may not doubt Jesus, but consider whether or not Jesus is the Word of God...

Joh 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:14

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Re 19:10

And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Re 19:13

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

 

[MatthewG]

@amadeus

Just because I discredit the ability to heal now today,

doesn't mean that bible is useless,

do you see me saying such thing as making a mockery of God or something?

Cause that is far from the truth.

 

[MatthewG]

I believe Jesus is the Word of God...

@amadeus

What else would you like to me submit to?

 

[MatthewG]

I actually believe that the Word of God, that was in Christ, is now on the throne that is the Lord God Almighty, @amadeus.

There are people out there they may not believe Jesus is the word or even have that type of knowledge but they have faith in God and that he raises the dead and love God and love others....

Will that faith and love override the extra knowledge? or will the knowledge of those things, override Gods care and consideration for them?

 

[amadeus]

@amadeus

Just because I discredit the ability to heal now today,

doesn't mean that bible is useless,

do you see me saying such thing as making a mockery of God or something?

Cause that is far from the truth.

My point was simply that IF the written Bible is the Word of God as many people say that it is, then not believing in some parts of it would be not believing in all that Jesus is. Should we only believe in part of Jesus?

 

[MatthewG]

My point was simply that IF the written Bible is the Word of God as many people say that it is, then not believing in some parts of it would be not believing in all that Jesus is. Should we only believe in part of Jesus?

That is just a rhetorical question.

It questions if a person can have little knowledge, or even alot of knowledge.

AGain let me submit to you the words of Paul.

If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.


What is important, beliving you can heal people, or loving people and brining the healer to them?

 

[amadeus]

I believe Jesus is the Word of God...

@amadeus

What else would you like to me submit to?

I ask you to submit to nothing. I simply added my 2 cents or the Holy Spirit input for the benefit of others reading this thread. Not everyone believes as you do. I wish that we could all agree with each other on every point and always remain of God's side, but that is not how we []people] are, is it?

 

[MatthewG]

I ask you to submit to nothing. I simply added my 2 cents or the Holy Spirit input for the benefit of others reading this thread. Not everyone believes as you do. I wish that we could all agree with each other on every point and always remain of God's side, but that is not how we []people] are, is it?

You seem very against me on the matters of this subject, also many others, but still no one has proved by going out and healing someone and that right there is alarming in itself.

Please go heal a blind person, or a lame sick person, or a person with a lame hand, or raise a person from the dead at the funeral.

As it has nothing to do with God healing people. It's people going out 'to heal people', which can trick and malign people and give false hope...

It's sad.

 

[amadeus]

That is just a rhetorical question.

Rhetorical only if you are not effectively making Jesus less than he is.

It questions if a person can have little knowledge, or even alot of knowledge.

AGain let me submit to you the words of Paul.

If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.


What is important, beliving you can heal people, or loving people and brining the healer to them?

There have been a lot of threads and posts on this forum over the years on what Love is... If you continue with what Paul wrote in that chapter he tells us what it is:

1co 13:4	Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
1co 13:5	does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
1co 13:6	does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
1co 13:7	bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

 

[MatthewG]

Rhetorical only if you are not effectively making Jesus less than he is.

There have been a lot of threads and posts on this forum over the years on what Love is... If you continue with what Paul wrote in that chapter he tells us what it is:

1co 13:4	Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
1co 13:5	does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
1co 13:6	does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
1co 13:7	bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Again pulling moves as a scholar.

If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.


and you missed the question.

What is important, beliving you can heal people, or loving people and brining the healer to them?

 

[MatthewG]

Rhetorical only if you are not effectively making Jesus less than he is.

Jesus Christ is the one who makes people right with God, so they can have peace with God...

I believe that he is the Lord of Lord and King of Kings.

But you still digress in rhetoric...

to soothe your own self... in my opinion my friend.

You are no better than me, and God doesn't respect you more than me, or anyone else, and I am not better than you.

 

[MatthewG]

Mark 2:3-11 NLT​

four men arrived carrying a paralyzed man on a mat. They couldn’t bring him to Jesus because of the crowd, so they dug a hole through the roof above his head. Then they lowered the man on his mat, right down in front of Jesus. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralyzed man, “My child, your sins are forgiven.” But some of the teachers of religious law who were sitting there thought to themselves, “What is he saying? This is blasphemy! Only God can forgive sins!” Jesus knew immediately what they were thinking, so he asked them, “Why do you question this in your hearts? Is it easier to say to the paralyzed man ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or ‘Stand up, pick up your mat, and walk’? So I will prove to you that the Son of Man has the authority on earth to forgive sins.” Then Jesus turned to the paralyzed man and said, “Stand up, pick up your mat, and go home!”

 

[amadeus]

You seem very against me on the matters of this subject, also many others, but still no one has proved by going out and healing someone and that right there is alarming in itself.

Please go heal a blind person, or a lame sick person, or a person with a lame hand, or raise a person from the dead at the funeral.

As it has nothing to do with God healing people. It's people going out 'to heal people', which can trick and malign people and give false hope...

It's sad.

You started the thread and want people to participate. You surely would not want me to lie about what I believe so that we would seem to agree.

As to me healing, you apparently have not read carefully with understanding what I have already written on this thread. If it is not according to God's will, a healing is NOT going to happen. If it is according to His will it must also be done by one He has called to take action invoke His healing. Without faith that it will happen it still will not... just because I want it to... When my father was dying I was praying, but it was time for his to go according to God. He died.

You resort to tests for me or for others here. What we do or what we can or cannot do is not the question. It is what God can do. Don't insist on limiting. The natural children of Israel did that in the OT. We can do the same thing with the same kind of results:

Ps 78:41

Yes, again and again they tempted God, And limited the Holy One of Israel.

 

[MatthewG]

You started the thread and want people to participate.

You surely would not want me to lie about what I believe so that we would seem to agree.

As to me healing, you apparently have not read carefully with understanding what I have already written on this thread.

If it is not according to God's will, a healing is NOT going to happen.

If it is according to His will it must also be done by one He has called to take action invoke His healing.

Okay,

explain this then:

Mark Chapter 16

[The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20.]

9 When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. 10 She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping.11 When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it.

12 Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country. 13 These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either.

14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.

15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakeswith their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

 

[amadeus]

Jesus Christ is the one who makes people right with God, so they can have peace with God...

I believe that he is the Lord of Lord and King of Kings.

But you still digress in rhetoric...

to soothe your own self... in my opinion my friend.

You are no better than me, and God doesn't respect you more than me, or anyone else, and I am not better than you.

No, I am not better than you, but on some points perhaps I do know a few things. You also know a few things. The important thing in both cases is does our knowledge always equal God's knowledge? The answer for both of us is: No! For this reason we are to live not by knowledge but by faith. God made it that way. Not me.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I never said anything about God never heals.

Claims from others does not mean I will believe it - I will be skeptical.

Nothing wrong with healthy scepticism....especially when a “showman” is in the room making it all about himself. What happens to the ”cure” if the malady returns the next day, or the healing does not occur at all?
Did the holy spirit lose power over the centuries? If it’s the same spirit, then it would work the same way as it did back then.....it clearly doesn’t. The devil has power too and he is a mimic. He too can perform “signs and wonders” to mislead people. How do they feel when a charlatan is exposed? Duped and betrayed.

No one has mentioned the placebo effect......a medically recognised “cure” that occurs simply through belief....and it doesn’t even mean that a person has to be a Christian to experience it. It’s actually a “mind over matter” situation. Our mind can exercise control over our body in ways that science cannot explain.
It’s the reason why double blind studies are done in medicine. Placebos actually work for some people, simply by believing that they do.

The age of that time had not ended. So those things were going on full swing.

Yes, the ministry of Jesus and his apostles was accomplished by means of the miracles. It is how God showed the Jews that his favor had shifted from the the corrupt Jewish system to the Christian arrangement that had to separate from them. But that was not the end...just the beginning.

But can you show me it today?

Bingo!.....there is no way that healings occur in the same way as they did back in the first century.
Who can raise the dead? Who can restore a missing or withered limb? Who can make the blind see, or the deaf hear? It is false hope that keeps people hooked on these highly emotional gatherings. Emotions are very transient and disappointment can lead to loss of faith......no one went away without a cure in Jesus’ day.
No one lost faith because of disappointment, or the accusation that they didn’t have enough faith.
It’s like lambs to the slaughter. Beliefs can be easily shattered if they are not based on sound knowledge.

Paul said that the gifts would cease and be replaced by more mature ways to come to the faith. We are not to be spiritual infants needing milk, but to grow up and develop mature qualities. We need sound Bible knowledge and way too many people rely on others to know it all for them.....who said that was the way to become a true Christian?

This is how Jehovah’s spirit works.....
Matthew 4:23-24 tells the story....curing “every sort of disease and....infirmity”.
“Then he went throughout the whole of Galʹi·lee, teaching in their synagogues and preaching the good news of the Kingdom and curing every sort of disease and every sort of infirmity among the people. 24 And the report about him spread throughout all Syria, and they brought him all those who were suffering with various diseases and torments, those who were demon-possessed and epileptic and paralyzed, and he cured them.”

 

[amadeus]

Okay,

explain this then:

Mark Chapter 16

[The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20.]

9 When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. 10 She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping.11 When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it.

12 Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country. 13 These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either.

14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.

15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakeswith their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

I believe, God allowed such differences to cause things like this thread to make people look to Him and His Son for answers instead of to their logic and their own brain power. God alone has the answers to all the questions a person may ask. Where else should we go for answers?

Mt 17:5

While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Hear him... not Amadeus and not MatthewG.

We will not resolve our differences in beliefs unless God is in the resolution.

 

[MatthewG]

So, @amadeus,

I dont doubt Jesus, and I believe he was the very word of God that when God spoke Gods Word created.

At the end of the day, no one can prove to me they can lay hands on people and heal them.

You may look at what is said as though I doubt Jesus, and you probably - desire me to not doubt - but I dont doubt Jesus, nor do I doubt what he said to his disciples, maybe only in Mark 16, however.

Jesus Sends Out the Twelve​

10 Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

This was never said to me... This was to the tweleve.

Jesus Sends Out the Seventy-Two​

10 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two[a] others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go. 2 He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. 3 Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves. 4 Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road.

5 “When you enter a house, first say, ‘Peace to this house.’ 6 If someone who promotes peace is there, your peace will rest on them; if not, it will return to you. 7 Stay there, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house.

He never says it to these guys.

@amadeus so critical review is needed.

What was said to them, and also as I suggested to @Wynona, subjectively, go try and heal someone and see what happens but do not lose faith if it doesn't come about.

You also have other scriptures that can be looked at.

Did Jesus tell me to go heal?

Did Paul ever say that to those that are in America - or did he say to those in Corinthians.


And why doesn't healing work today? In the same manner then.

If you doubt that it is possible does that make you less of a Christian?

 

[MatthewG]

I believe, God allowed such differences to cause things like this thread to make people look to Him and His Son for answers instead of to their logic and their own brain power. God alone has the answers to all the questions a person may ask. Where else should we go for answers?

Mt 17:5

While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Hear him... not Amadeus and not MatthewG.

We will not resolve our differences in beliefs unless God is in the resolution.

you cant just pick and choose scripture @amadeus that doesn't work... man. Sorry it doesn't work. That is not keeping things in context.

The Transfiguration​

17 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”

5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”

6 When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. 7 But Jesus came and touched them. “Get up,” he said. “Don’t be afraid.” 8 When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus.

9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”

10 The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?”

11 Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.

 

[MatthewG]

Jesus Comforts His Disciples​

14 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[a]; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Jesus the Way to the Father​

5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit​

15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”
22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”
23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31 but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
“Come now; let us leave.



AGain did Jesus speak to me? Or did he speak to them?