Everybody has Demons, YES!!! even Christians!!!

[DoveSpirit05]

Very interesting take on the thorn in Paul's flesh, one of the more interesting articles I have read in quite awhile. Have not heard it put this way before. It does fit the scriptures pretty well...especially the OT use of the same word "thorn" as messenger/angel.

"In the Old Testament, the term “thorn” is used as a metaphor for a person or group that persecutes God’s people"
"In this context, God’s enemies are called “thorns” in Israel’s sides (flesh) that “vex” and torment them. These “thorns” were human beings inspired by God’s enemy."

I never even thought to look at anything about the thorn in the OT!
Yikes, I better study much more diligently to show myself approved!
I had thought at one time that his "thorn" was pride. And the reason I thought this could possibly be:

"Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn [splinter] in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself! "

"Paul immediately says that he would rather “boast in his weaknesses” so that Christ’s power may dwell in him (v. 9)."

Great food for thought/study! Thanks for sharing ♥2S :)

Yes dis is my point man, people don't read the geek translation man dats why I post all dis stuff man 2 open peoples eyes, so they don't get lost in ignorance.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

@DoveSpirit05..just wanna say wow on Tom Loud's youtube!!! He's my kinda guy!
Thank you so much. :)

 

[GreenCanada]

Points to consider:

1. Paul was tormented by an evil spirit but he actively prayed that God would take it away. Means he was in full control of his mind while the evil spirit attacked. "Three times I asked for God to take it away". If the demon was possessing Paul, why would it let Paul pray to God to remove it?

2. Christians' bodies are the temple of the Spirit. Back in the Old Testament, nothing impure could enter the temple of God. And no impure or defective sacrifices were allowed. Now if we are "living sacrifices" to God, how can we be "defective" or "impure" in the mind by a demon or demonic spirit? We would not be allowed to offer our bodies as living sacrifices to God if we were possessed by a demon.

3. if "everyone" has a demon, then Christians who cast out demons would run into the conundrum of what was taught by Jesus. He said "If Satan is fighting against Satan, how can his kingdom stand?" If the disciples of Jesus had evil spirits in them, and they removed evil spirits from others, wouldn't that be "Satan fighting Satan?" It wouldn't make sense for Satan to fight against himself by setting one demon controlled person against another.

4. Lastly, the statistical probability of having enough evil spirits to possess every person on earth is not or will not be possible. Abraham was promised that the Israelites would number as much as the stars in the sky. Now we also know that 1/3 of the stars were swept away by Satan (dragon) and thus, 1/3 of angels are demonic or evil. Now if there are only a number of evil spirits totalling 1/3 of the stars, how could they possibly possess all of the Israelites let alone all people on earth, who will number ALL the stars or even more? (Of course when and if the Israelites number the stars if not already).

So given these arguments (some assumptions in the last argument though), I'm afraid you are mistaken in your understanding of evil spirits and how they cannot coexist with a person with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Nancy]

I didn't read the article, if this is what it's saying, I'd agree, that if there is an answer in the Bible this is it.

Much love!

If you get the chance, you should read it, sure got me to looking at Paul's thorn differently!

 

[Enoch111]

Paul was tormented by an evil spirit but he actively prayed that God would take it away.

The metaphorical *thorn* was in *the flesh* (Paul's body). It was NOT an evil spirit but a serious physical disability -- perhaps poor eyesight, perhaps being crippled.

Does Satan and demonic spirits use physical disabilities against people? Absolutely. We have examples in Scripture.
LUKE 13
11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.
12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.
13 And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God...
16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

 

[GreenCanada]

Interesting,

But the thorn in the flesh was also called "A messenger from Satan sent to torment me" to keep him from being proud. Your use of the thorn as a metaphor breaks down as a thorn is a separate entity from the flesh (Paul's body). So how can a disability in the body be separate from the body? Therefore, the thorn has to be something alien to the body causing the torment, and perhaps causing the disability as you stated.

I agree that evil spirits can cause disabilities, but that doesn't prove Paul's thorn wasn't an external evil spirit hindering him.

 

[Helen]

Points to consider:

1. Paul was tormented by an evil spirit but he actively prayed that God would take it away. Means he was in full control of his mind while the evil spirit attacked. "Three times I asked for God to take it away". If the demon was possessing Paul, why would it let Paul pray to God to remove it?

2. Christians' bodies are the temple of the Spirit. Back in the Old Testament, nothing impure could enter the temple of God. And no impure or defective sacrifices were allowed. Now if we are "living sacrifices" to God, how can we be "defective" or "impure" in the mind by a demon or demonic spirit? We would not be allowed to offer our bodies as living sacrifices to God if we were possessed by a demon.

3. if "everyone" has a demon, then Christians who cast out demons would run into the conundrum of what was taught by Jesus. He said "If Satan is fighting against Satan, how can his kingdom stand?" If the disciples of Jesus had evil spirits in them, and they removed evil spirits from others, wouldn't that be "Satan fighting Satan?" It wouldn't make sense for Satan to fight against himself by setting one demon controlled person against another.

4. Lastly, the statistical probability of having enough evil spirits to possess every person on earth is not or will not be possible. Abraham was promised that the Israelites would number as much as the stars in the sky. Now we also know that 1/3 of the stars were swept away by Satan (dragon) and thus, 1/3 of angels are demonic or evil. Now if there are only a number of evil spirits totalling 1/3 of the stars, how could they possibly possess all of the Israelites let alone all people on earth, who will number ALL the stars or even more? (Of course when and if the Israelites number the stars if not already).

So given these arguments (some assumptions in the last argument though), I'm afraid you are mistaken in your understanding of evil spirits and how they cannot coexist with a person with the Holy Spirit.

Good one!

 

[Heart2Soul]

The metaphorical *thorn* was in *the flesh* (Paul's body). It was NOT an evil spirit but a serious physical disability -- perhaps poor eyesight, perhaps being crippled.

Does Satan and demonic spirits use physical disabilities against people? Absolutely. We have examples in Scripture.
LUKE 13
11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.
12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.
13 And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God...
16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

It wasn't a physical ailment...he told us himself what it was. A messenger of Satan.

 

[Enoch111]

It wasn't a physical ailment...he told us himself what it was. A messenger of Satan.

Yes. And we also read about another messenger of Satan in Luke 13, which clearly presented a crippling disability -- "a spirit of infirmity".

Demons could not possibly hang around Paul or any of the other the apostles. And they positively feared the presence of Christ.

 

[GreenCanada]

We're not saying your wrong in that evil spirits can cause disabilities, as in the case of the woman with internal bleeding "whom Satan has bound for many years", but your assumption that evil spirits cannot attack Christians and that the thorn in the flesh in Paul was merely a disability isn't correct.

Here are my pointers:
1. Christ was tempted and "talked" with Satan himself in the desert. Satan wasn't afraid to tempt Jesus at all.

2. Peter when he tried to change Jesus' mind on dying resulted in Jesus saying "Get behind me Satan, for you do not know the will of God."
So if even Peter was deceived by the devil and played right into his hands, it is possible that evil spirits can deceive or harm Christians as well, as is the case with the messenger from Satan.

3. Portrayal of Satan and evil spirits as powerless and unable to "hang around" Christians are also incorrect. The Bible teaches us that Satan is like a roaring lion, waiting for someone to devour. He also isn't afraid to pretend to be an angel of light either, as he is a master of deception.

4. Lastly, I will also argue that Paul of all people would have been proud of being "disabled" for God, if God gave him a crippling disability he would have been even prouder as he says in his "foolish boosting" that he had been stoned, beaten, starved, naked, whipped, etc. Having blindness or an infirmity from God disabling him would have made him even prouder. Therefore, since the whole purpose of the messenger from Satan was to keep Paul from being proud, it is likely it was an evil spirit tormenting him, not just a physical disability.

 

[Heart2Soul]

We're not saying your wrong in that evil spirits can cause disabilities, as in the case of the woman with internal bleeding "whom Satan has bound for many years", but your assumption that evil spirits cannot attack Christians and that the thorn in the flesh in Paul was merely a disability isn't correct.

Here are my pointers:
1. Christ was tempted and "talked" with Satan himself in the desert. Satan wasn't afraid to tempt Jesus at all.

2. Peter when he tried to change Jesus' mind on dying resulted in Jesus saying "Get behind me Satan, for you do not know the will of God."
So if even Peter was deceived by the devil and played right into his hands, it is possible that evil spirits can deceive or harm Christians as well, as is the case with the messenger from Satan.

3. Portrayal of Satan and evil spirits as powerless and unable to "hang around" Christians are also incorrect. The Bible teaches us that Satan is like a roaring lion, waiting for someone to devour. He also isn't afraid to pretend to be an angel of light either, as he is a master of deception.

4. Lastly, I will also argue that Paul of all people would have been proud of being "disabled" for God, if God gave him a crippling disability he would have been even prouder as he says in his "foolish boosting" that he had been stoned, beaten, starved, naked, whipped, etc. Having blindness or an infirmity from God disabling him would have made him even prouder. Therefore, since the whole purpose of the messenger from Satan was to keep Paul from being proud, it is likely it was an evil spirit tormenting him, not just a physical disability.

Paul mentioned 2 individuals who tormented him throughout his ministry and he turned them over to Satan. Their names are mentioned in 1Timothy. And Paul also mentioned another he trusted and asked them not to turn against as he has already suffered much and bears the marks of Jesus.
So maybe false witnesses, accusers of the brethren, men who were his followers at one time then turned against him.

 

[DoveSpirit05]

@DoveSpirit05..just wanna say wow on Tom Loud's youtube!!! He's my kinda guy!
Thank you so much. :)

No problem!!

 

[marks]

If you get the chance, you should read it, sure got me to looking at Paul's thorn differently!

Am I going crazy? I can't find the link now!

Help!!

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Am I going crazy? I can't find the link now!

Help!!

Post 17 page 1 :)

 

[marks]

Post 17 page 1 :)

Right! I already had DoveSpirit on ignore . . .

 

[marks]

If you get the chance, you should read it, sure got me to looking at Paul's thorn differently!

It's an interesting article.

For the most part, it matches my own research in Scripture on this. A simple word study points you to the only place where the same idiom is used, so if we let Scripture interpret Scripture that's it. The thorn in the flesh is the people who harass you.

He goes a little farther than I do. He writes,

Note that the men who visited Galatia and Corinth with their “gospel” seemed to have been fellow Hebrews from the Jerusalem church (although undoubtedly operating without its approval and misrepresenting the assembly — see 2 Corinthians 11:22 and Galatians 1-2).

That is, these men were recognized Christians – in name at least.

And then goes on from there.

I don't really like to base ideas on "it seems they were recognized as Christians", perhaps yes, perhaps not. So after that I see as his own conjecture. But up to that point, that's what I see in the Bible.

If I carry the idiom a little further, I actually see something a little differently.

The thorn in the flesh of the Israelites was the peoples who had been there before, and who were allowed to remain.

So then the ones who were there before Christianity were the Jews, and these kept saying things like they had to be circumcised, and keep the law, and that Paul rebelled against Moses.

Much love!

Edit to add . . . old and new wine skins.

 

[DoveSpirit05]

Interesting,

But the thorn in the flesh was also called "A messenger from Satan sent to torment me" to keep him from being proud. Your use of the thorn as a metaphor breaks down as a thorn is a separate entity from the flesh (Paul's body). So how can a disability in the body be separate from the body? Therefore, the thorn has to be something alien to the body causing the torment, and perhaps causing the disability as you stated.

I agree that evil spirits can cause disabilities, but that doesn't prove Paul's thorn wasn't an external evil spirit hindering him.

yes Num 33:55 " But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell." here he's being metaphorical and it means Gen 3:17 -18 " And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;" but 2 corith 12:7 yes he means messenger of satan coz messenger mean angel in greek and he said it came 2 buffet me which means tempt, how can a thorn tempt someone!!

 

[DoveSpirit05]

People i think there's a big miss-understanding here, when i say a christian can have
a demon i'm not talking about being possessed, i'm talking about being opressed,
theres a big difference, being possessed means that a person can be under the
total control of a demon hence the guy at the tomb in mark 5:5 who was cutting
himself. where as being opressed is where a demon can only cause a infirmty hence
paul, when a demon was maybe inhibiting him when he was preaching or getting
inside his head etc.

was paul cutting hemself, no but he was still suffering an
infirmty. now du get it? guys there are christians being opressed all the time
speshly by satan, theres christians persecuted in china, the middle east, locked
up and even killed for the faith. I myself have a thorn in my flesh too. I have a
force waring against my flesh, trying 2 hinder my walk but i stay in the word and
cling to God, we are not perfect people, the bible says we are of currupt flesh,
nothing good dwells in us dats why we need to be born again. we christians cant be
possessed coz we've been coverd with the blood of jesus and we have a hedge of
protection.

 

[DoveSpirit05]

Gal 4:13-15 " Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me."

 

[Helen]

Yes. And we also read about another messenger of Satan in Luke 13, which clearly presented a crippling disability -- "a spirit of infirmity".

Demons could not possibly hang around Paul or any of the other the apostles. And they positively feared the presence of Christ.

Nop, I'm with @Heart2Soul on this one... :)