Eternal Security
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What is this, "your possession" of a salvation? What does that mean? Being a new creation? Having been born the spirit child of God? Immersed into Christ, to share His election and His Sonship? I don't see salvation as we are talking about it as something you have, like a hall pass, or a wallet, rather, something you are. There was something you used to be and that's over. Now you are something else.
Much love!
Wynona: I see you have an impressive list of verse selections here. Have you one that is your favorite? Do you know what they all really mean?
Look at the first one - Matthew 13:18-23. This clearly is not about losing ones' faith or salvation. It is how one is truly saved and illustrates with comparisons how one cannot be saved. So I think we can toss this first one out. It has no bearing on 'becoming unsaved,' only saved.
Look at your Romans 11:20-22. Now this one actually is tricky to understand if one just reads especially verse 22. If one does not take the time to study the context, the meaning of the 'tree' its branches and Israel and the nations, and who Paul is talking to, one is likely to get a skewed view of the nature of salvation. Paul is not talking about losing ones salvation at all. Want me to expand on it?
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
This:
"...into an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, reserved in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power for the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:4-5
"...he will be saved. He will come in and go out and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I have come that they may have life, and have it in all its fullness." John 10:9-10
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
If people who fall away were never really saved to begin with why does John tell people he affirms as being genuinely saved to let the word of God remain in them? Your application of 1 John 2:19 doesn't match vs. 24-25.
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Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Not to be too picky, but it's the other way around.
Faith springs from hope:
"the faith and love that spring from the hope stored up for you in heaven and about which you have already heard in the true message of the gospel" Colossians 1:5
You hear the message of the hope of salvation, and it produces faith in you. And faith in turn produces the obedience of love.
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Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
No, it's "some who HAD been raised with Christ will not appear with Him".
You're ignoring the condition for the promise...continued believing.
" you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you." 1 Corinthians 15:2
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
The argument is that no one can remove you from God's love and grace by force against your will:
" If God is for us, who can be against us?" Romans 8:31
" No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand." John 10:29
...not that you can't walk away if you want to." No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand." John 10:29
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
What you're erroneously presuming is that John is saying that every person who falls away was never saved to begin with.
What he's saying is they weren't a part of them because they did not let the word remain in them. If they had let it remain in them they'd be with them now. That is the proper understanding of 1 John 2:19...
"19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. "
...that keeps it consistent with 1 John 2:24-25...
"24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father."
OSAS says vs. 19 means if you're a true believer the word will remain in you always and you won't fall away. Which doesn't explain why John then tells genuine anointed believers to let the word of God remain in them and tells them what happens if they do that. And so OSAS creates an inconsistency between the two statements. But if you use vs. 24 in context with vs. 19 you can see he's saying those who left did not let the word remain in them and so they were not part of them.
...if you keep believing.
"By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you." 1 Corinthians 15:2
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
You have the completed action of being risen with Christ as long as you continue to believe:
"By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you." 1 Corinthians 15:2
The condition of Colossians 3:1-4 is that you are "risen with Christ".
You are risen in Christ as long as you continue to believe.
We know that from other scripture.
You can't un-rightly divide Colossians 3:1-4 away from the whole counsel of scripture.
The problem here is, you cannot accept the statement of Colossians, because of how you understand the rest. To be able to reconcile these, you may need to change your views.
That's what I've done over the years. As I've accepted the reality of what these passages say, I've needed to relook at many others, and I've had to find how they actually do reconcile. Once I did that, liberty results. Truth sets us free!
Much love!
That's the inheritance, but it's good you are looking.
I just can't get over your translation.
It really re-words the passage. It makes me think maybe I understand the cause for confusion . . .
I searched it . . . it looks like you are using the NIV. No wonder!
Much love!
@Ferris Bueller
At the end of it all . . . you've not once presented anything to indicate that these passages actually say anything different from what I've presented, only, that you don't think they can be true as stated.
So I'm going to point you to consider those verses until you actually believe them for what they say, and then go back and relook at any place that makes you think there is a contradiction, and find a real harmony.
I don't think there is more I can do for you than that.
Much love!
At the end of it all . . . you've not once presented anything to indicate that these passages actually say anything different from what I've presented, only, that you don't think they can be true as stated.
So I'm going to point you to consider those verses until you actually believe them for what they say, and then go back and relook at any place that makes you think there is a contradiction, and find a real harmony.
I don't think there is more I can do for you than that.
Much love!
Salvation is not a Ferris Wheel on which people get on and off.
@marks In the end, if the plain sense of Scripture is shown, over and over, and it seems still to be met with blank denial, then there's not anything more than can be said...
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
You're right.
Once you get off and are determined to stay off, God does not allow you to get back on.
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