entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.

[Timtofly]

Lol

Again you are talking about something different, your talking about discipleship

I am talking about justification

maybe one day you will realize this

for them yes, he had to change their mindset, do you think they were ready to go off on their own and start gods church after a few days?

Only God can justify our thoughts and actions. What do you mean by justification?

If we rationalize our thoughts and actions it is not God, it is us "trying to justify" ourselves. All we can do is rationalize sin, and sin remains in us. If we confess our sin, God justifies us as if sin never happened.

 

[FollowHim]

jesus said he went home justified

he did not say as long as he stops his sin he may be justified

the tax collector became bankrupt because he acknowledged where his sin took him

if he truly felt this and this led to his repentance, he would not continue

so,for you to say if he does this.. does what? If he did that he never became bankrupt man, come on

as John said, those born of God will not sin, why do you not believe these men who,spoke the word of God in scripture?

and way to totally ignore romans 3:there, did you think I would forget what I posted and to show you my faith and where I got it from?

You are trying to say something, but I cannot tell what it is. Are you saying you are a bankrupt tax collector sinning and devoid of victory or freedom and that is where Jesus wants you to stay?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are correct on security.

Riding the train fast instead of walking, does not prevent sin. You can still sin and confess while secure and moving fast. If sin builds up, the conductor is not going to let you or sin continue. You will be put off at the next stop, to figure things out in your life, so you can get back on track.

Hi EG. As a contributor to a forum I make observations as I desire, it is not a competition or even obligation.
I appreciate your approach, it makes me think and provokes a response, which can get dull, but maybe not how you would like.

By the way, the more you share the more I get to know you, which is illuminating, because it is not what I expected.
Today you made me realise how Peter wanted to stand back from Jesus and see what would happen at Jesus's trial.

Jesus knew Peter's heart and his impetuous nature, speaking often before he had worked things through. He loved Jesus to death, but had not yet taken that step to where his heart was. In my life I realised often I have ideas, and do not realise when things shift, I actually have to move and count the cost, and make things stick. Asking my wife to marry me was one. Accepting Jesus as my Lord was another. Letting go of my kids to risk their lives in dangerous situations was another.

Each revelation is another step into the life and into the Kingdom. Each step seems small and insignificant, but can lead to the point were someone holds a gun to our heads and asks us if we love Jesus. And the answer in Gods grace is yes, and amen, and we can go to be with Him.

I know the elect will understand this, Praise the Lord, because walking in Him has many such steps in our walk, Amen.

Oh I know, this is how you have always done it

well guess what, when you attack someone, or try to show them they are wrong

and they show you in response how you are wrong

and you fail to address what they said

they call this hypocrisy

so I will do like I did in the other chatroom and set you aside in my prayer been, because you have just shown, you have no desire to discuss anything but your view.

 

[Joseph77]

12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are correct on security.

Riding the train fast instead of walking, does not prevent sin. You can still sin and confess while secure and moving fast. If sin builds up, the conductor is not going to let you or sin continue. You will be put off at the next stop, to figure things out in your life, so you can get back on track.

Can you explain johns words here?

1 John 3: Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

and explain if this is true, which it is, how a person could continue to live in habitual sin like he was never saved?

 

[FollowHim]

You right, I believe this also

the problem is our justification is not based on how sanctified we become

our justification is by faith based on Gods love, not based on me, if it were based on me, I would never be justified, because I am a sinner who has and continues to fall short of the glory of God (perfection) but praise to God i was.. well here, let me let the apostle Paul tell you, maybe you will listen to him

Rom 3: being justified freely, by his Grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

now look there what did paul say

Being justified - it is an ongoing process, not a one time event, it continues, even today, I am being justified

what is the cost?

Freely, in the Greek the word is Dorian. The word means without cost, as a gift, freely given without paying

by his grace - grace comes from the Greek word charis it is where we get our word charity from, it is where I think most people have a problem with grace based theology, or try to change the meaning of what grace really is, it is no cost to the reciever, free (well it is free to the believer, it cost Jesus things we will never comprehend) it is basically charity, and one thing I have learned about proud people, they refuse to take anything by charity, they demand to pay for it, and if they can’t pay they will reject it,

this is why Jesus said we must become poor in spirit if we want to enter the kingdom of God

the word poor comes from the Greek ptochus. Which means destitute of wealth, reduced to begging, we call this in our day bankrupt, totally broke, unable to even feed ourselves, no place to call home, sleeping on the streets or wherever they can find a place. Jesus said this is where we need to be, if we want to enter Gods kingdom.

if we want a picture of this, Jesus gave us a picture, the sinner (tax collector) who got on his knees, so ashamed of his sins he was not able to even look up, calling out on God to shew mercy (charity) like the poor and destitute man who lays aside his pride, who comes and falls on their knees asking for charity so he can feed himself or his family, and what did Jesus say?

that man went home justified,

That is what God has given me and I am offering to share with other people,

but since I do this, and it offends so many, I am shamed, cut down, told I love my sin, and hate God

well who really hates God? It’s not me, I did what he said I should do, I became poor in spirit, and God is reminding me every day how poor I am without him, and when I forget, he is quick to remind me

I pray you find this one day, I really do

22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Rom 3:22-24

Layers of logic.
We believe and this faith is counted as righteousness.
This righteousness justifies us freely, ie there is nothing else needed other than faith.

One problem of the layers of logic, is a dependency can create other links which are assumed or true, and are expressed as links but under the context of the dependency. It is possible though to say because the link is true, it must override the dependency, so everything free is for all, and not limited to those who believe. It is how universalists end up in their theology, because the emphasis of the privilege Jesus brings to His people in this way be extended to all.

Jesus mentions that we should be perfect like the Father, in relation to loving our enemies. Now this is true, but also as we are called to be Holy like God is, perfection or maturity is not limited to just our enemies. So difficult is the term perfect, many translators have translated the word as mature. Like all such issues in Christ we need to walk it through, begin to examine our hearts and let Jesus bring its meaning to us over time and situations as we meet them.

I wish I could testify to this being a simple issue, for sometimes I go, this is impossible so it must all be wrong, must be just a pipe dream, something false, chasing after the wind. But each time, over time, Jesus brings me back, and puts things into place, and I see how I want perfection now, without practice and application, not learning my failures and struggles and seeing victory come to pass. This is no idle path, or simple objective, or something that can be assumed. Paul took captive his thoughts, disciplined his body, focused his efforts. I am merely a beginner in such things, yet I see its value. God bless you

 

[Joseph77]

"Question: "How can I overcome a habitual sin?"

Answer: The first thing to consider in how to overcome habitual sin is to note the change, or transformation, that takes place when a person is saved. The Bible describes the natural man as “dead in sin and trespasses” (Ephesians 2:1). As a result of Adam’s fall into sin,


man is born spiritually dead. In this state of spiritual death, man is unable and unwilling to follow and obey God and habitual sin naturally follows."



How can I overcome a habitual sin? | GotQuestions.org

 

[FollowHim]

Oh I know, this is how you have always done it

well guess what, when you attack someone, or try to show them they are wrong

and they show you in response how you are wrong

and you fail to address what they said

they call this hypocrisy

so I will do like I did in the other chatroom and set you aside in my prayer been, because you have just shown, you have no desire to discuss anything but your view.

I do not know what you are referring to or the hypocrisy you are talking about.
In truth unless two people share an understanding of what is being said there is not a conversation going on.
For this reason I cannot say we have started something which I am avoiding, rather the opposite, there is nothing that has begun.

Saying Jesus changes their mindset, me responding to this, then denying you wrote it, and when I point this out, saying I am a hypocrite.
That does make me laugh, because this is not even at a school debate level.

Let me be frank, I am happy someone who can show me how Paul could say sow to the flesh and reap destruction is not said to believers I am listening. I clearly explained it is possible to interpret this as what unbelievers do, which is true, except clearly Paul is addressing believers.

It is hard for me to see this is not a warning, not a clear description of leaving the path, and sowing to the Spirit, is staying on the path, and reaping eternal life. Of course if you say we always have eternal life no matter what happens, then this sentiment must mean something else if one believes Paul taught complete security. But how does this fit, if you want me to follow this theology.

Is this your kind of hypocrisy? I am happy to be that hypocrite who posts a position and desires discussion of it. God bless you.

 

[FollowHim]

Can you explain johns words here?

1 John 3: Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

and explain if this is true, which it is, how a person could continue to live in habitual sin like he was never saved?

I love these verses. I was talking once with a member on a forum, who told how they sinned every day, and it was not a problem, it was who they were. Now at a simple level this member claimed to know Jesus. But by these very verses they did not know Him or had seen Him.

It is possible their definition of sin was actually wrong, and what they were condemning was emotional turmoil and the normal reactions to provocation and frustration. When such things lead to blows, or hurt and harm, sin has come in. Some feel that they are their reactions, whether core deep flight or fight responses, or other stimulus and response reactions. What they do not understand is we are defined by our choices not our reactions. We choose to interpret things in a good, blessed way or a condemning aggressive way with intent to harm and destroy. Our responses chosen often grow from these very projections, and determine how we see the world and what we regard as good or evil.

So anger at someone endangering our lives is a valid response when driving a car. Acting defensively to avoid the nutcase, and calm things down is the way of Jesus, conflict and escalation is the way of dominance and revenge. That defines where sin comes and grace overrides.

This makes discussions difficult when the very basis of the words is different from different groups.
So for instance, breaking a speed limit is a sinful action? No it is breaking mans rules, and gets punished by mans fines and reprecussions.
So much of what people regard as sin, is actually responding to mans definition of behaviour and acceptability, not Gods.

On one forum on this subject, a member will post speeding signs to indicate all are sinners doomed to hell for breaking Gods law.
It is ironic that the pharisees did exactly the same, replacing Gods law with mans law, and condemning people as lost because of it.
God bless you

 

[Joseph77]

Just why is mankind doomed ?

On one forum on this subject, a member will post speeding signs to indicate all are sinners doomed to hell for breaking Gods law.

 

[Timtofly]

Can you explain johns words here?

1 John 3: Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

and explain if this is true, which it is, how a person could continue to live in habitual sin like he was never saved?

One who lives in sin is not saved, and does not see God.

God sees them and still seals them, up unto the point they die.

It is the Holy Spirit who calls. We cannot question the Holy Spirit. That leads to questioning who God is and the sin of no return.

The biggest problem with Calvinism is it tells God how to do God’s job. That is the bottom line and irrefutable truth.

Yes, all those verses are true and not open for interpretation, nor should be used for man made up doctrine.

 

[FollowHim]

Just why is mankind doomed ?

Mankind is doomed because we have no communion with God.

John the Baptist had communion with God from when he was in the womb.
It is why John will be less than any saint, because saints were lost and responded to Gods drawing of them.

Original sin which started with Adam was the break of communion. Our hearts defence and self justification leads to us losing sensitivity and the ability to empathise and be one with another with pure hearts and open consciences. In Christ this all changes, because in Him we are cleansed pure and see things as they are. God bless you

This separation leads us to sin in our thoughts, actions and intentions, in everything we do, because only in God do we have the reference point of love and reality.

 

[Joseph77]

One who lives in sin is not saved, and does not see God.
God sees them and still seals them, up unto the point they die.
It is the Holy Spirit who calls. We cannot question the Holy Spirit. That leads to questioning who God is and the sin of no return.
The biggest problem with Calvinism is it tells God how to do God’s job. That is the bottom line and irrefutable truth.
Yes, all those verses are true and not open for interpretation, nor should be used for man made up doctrine.

But man does as man does. Man made up doctrine is very very common.

 

[Joseph77]

It is why John will be less than any saint

for research, what church or school teaches this ? Not that he is compared by Jesus to the least in the Kingdom of God, but that that is why ?

 

[Joseph77]

Only God can justify our thoughts and actions. What do you mean by justification?

But man does as man does. Man made up doctrine is very very common.

Yes, all those verses are true and not open for interpretation, nor should be used for man made up doctrine.

Yet it is 'okay' for mankind, to use man's made up stuff.

 

[Joseph77]

QUOTE="Candidus, post: 720328, member: 8508"]Christian Perfection


The doctrine of Christian Perfection is badly misunderstood. Man cannot be a perfect God; nor do as perfectly as God; neither be a perfect angel, nor as perfect as Adam was before the Fall. No one is perfect in knowledge or has physical perfection; no one is perfect before men for the Jews said Jesus was a devil. When Jesus drove the money changers out of the Temple with a whip, which from a human standpoint was not perceived as a righteous act by some. By most "religious" definitions today, Jesus would not be considered "perfect" by their standard either.

Although His actions and motives were misunderstood by many, Jesus was the example of the perfect Christian -
Perfect in love.​

Commanded to be perfect with God- Deut. 18:13
Walk before me and be thou perfect- Gen. 17:1
Be perfect as your Father is perfect- Matt. 5:48
Go on to perfection- Hebrews 6:1
We wish your perfection- 2 Cor. 13:9
Epaphras prays for your perfection- Col. 4:12
I pray night and day for your perfection- 2 Thes. 3:10
Scriptures are given: that the man of God may be perfect- 2 Thes. 3:10
We preach to present every man perfect- Col. 1:28
Finally farewell. Be perfect- 2 Cor. 13:11
God gave some apostles, some evangelists... for the perfecting of the saints- Eph. 4:11-13
If thou will be perfect- Matt. 19:21
Made perfect in one- John 17:23
Same is perfect man- James 3:2
Perfect in love- 1 John 4:17, 18
Love the bond of perfectness- Col. 3:14
Love is the fulfilling of the law -Romans 13:10
Mark the perfect man- Ps. 37:37
Noah was perfect in his generation- Gen. 6:9
Hezekiah had a perfect heart- 2 Kings 20:3
Asa's heart was perfect- 2 Chron. 15:17
I will walk with a perfect heart- Ps. 10:1, 2
Job a perfect man- Job 1:1-8
Perfect way- Ps. 10:1-7
The God of peace, who has the power to bring to life the dead, can make you perfect through the blood of everlasting covenant- Heb. 13:20, 21

Perfection is not a strange thing in Scripture. According to God, believers can be, and are commanded to go on to perfection.[/QUOTE
======================================================================================

Scripture is not the standard on forums. So perfection is impossible, obedience is rare . Man made up stuff is welcome and encouraged.

 

[FollowHim]

for research, what church or school teaches this ? Not that he is compared by Jesus to the least in the Kingdom of God, but that that is why ?

28 I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."
Luke 7:28

14 He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth,
15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth.
Luke 1:14-15

I do not know if anyone teaches this it is an obvious conclusion to draw from the above verses.

 

[Joseph77]

God's case against me will be dismissed

Double check what Scripture says.

I don't think it "will be", but was.... from and in many Scripture (for those for which Scripture is the Truth, the Standard, God's Standard) ...

 

[Joseph77]

I do not know if anyone teaches this it is an obvious conclusion to draw from the above verses.

That it is true as written is not the question.

You added >
"FollowHim said: ↑
It is why John will be less than any saint"

I don't know of ANY church or group that teaches this>>
"John the Baptist had communion with God from when he was in the womb.
It is why John will be less than any saint, because saints were lost and responded to Gods drawing of them."

 

[FollowHim]

That it is true as written is not the question.

You added >
"FollowHim said: ↑
It is why John will be less than any saint"

I don't know of ANY church or group that teaches this>>
"John the Baptist had communion with God from when he was in the womb.
It is why John will be less than any saint, because saints were lost and responded to Gods drawing of them."

It is my conclusion. There is a big difference between being born into communion and being a sinner and putting ones life on the altar and giving it all up. In a sense John was not saved, he was always with the Lord.

There is a link with how Paul describes why he was saved.

13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.
1 Tim 1:13

Our guilt is based on our choice, though tempered by our knowledge and understanding.
It puts rebellion against the Lord after one has come to know Him on a different scale as Hebrews warns us.

29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:29

John the Baptist was in a unique position, a sign post of the Kingdom, yet not a converted sinner to saint. He did not have a choice in one sense, he was always in the Kingdom. Now of course one could say Jesus meant something else, but it is this that has stuck out to me as obvious, something that Jesus wanted to point out. God bless you