Electing New Pope

[Behold]

And sooooo, you simply ignore the words of Paul . .

Im not discussing celibacy.
I could not care less about : Celibacy.

So....
Lets try it again.

Paul said....(New Testament)>>"forbidding to marry", is a..."doctrine of Devils".

The Catholic Church does not allow their Priest or their Pope to marry.

Also....Peter, had a Wife.

PETER had a WIFE.

Do you understand?
So, as the CC teaches that Peter is the 1st Pope, they kinda forgot that He had a wife that he never gave up and was in the ministry with Him.


Now, my question was.... If Paul says that what the "cult of Mary" forces upon its Priest's and Pope... is a "doctrine of Devil's"< and Peter had a WIFE......then who in the "cult of Mary" decided to just bypass the word of God and Peter, and enforce this denial of marriage upon its Priesthood. ???
See, when you find out that a very import Catholic Doctrine, has been DEFINED by Paul as a "doctrine of devil's", and when you discover that the Catholic Church's 1st Pope, had a wife...

You then find yourself in a FALSE and Anti-Scripural situation if you are Catholic doctrine, or if you are a Catholic.

So, who is it that just put the Bible under lock and key and decided to install a "forbidding to MARRY" = "doctrine of devils" as Catholic Church Doctrine that has to be MAINTAINED if you want to be a POPE or a Catholic Priest. ?

Thats the question.
Stay on Topic, BreadofLife, if you can.

 

[BreadOfLife]

They been changing rules for some time, the latest major change was 1962-65 dubbed the vatican II.

Don't know much about Protestants are they another similar denomination of catholic?

I asked you for specifics.
WHISH Catholic Traditions have “changed considerably”??
As to your question about Protestants – are you serious – or have you NEVER studied history?
Did you never go to school?

Are YOU a non-Catholic Christian – if do you have another faith tradition?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Im not discussing celibacy.
I could not care less about : Celibacy.

So....
Lets try it again.

Paul said....(New Testament)>>"forbidding to marry", is a..."doctrine of Devils".

The Catholic Church does not allow their Priest or their Pope to marry.

Also....Peter, had a Wife.

PETER had a WIFE.

Do you understand?
So, as the CC teaches that Peter is the 1st Pope, they kinda forgot that He had a wife that he never gave up and was in the ministry with Him.


Now, my question was.... If Paul says that what the "cult of Mary" forces upon its Priest's and Pope... is a "doctrine of Devil's"< and Peter had a WIFE......then who in the "cult of Mary" decided to just bypass the word of God and Peter, and enforce this denial of marriage upon its Priesthood. ???
See, when you find out that a very import Catholic Doctrine, has been DEFINED by Paul as a "doctrine of devil's", and when you discover that the Catholic Church's 1st Pope, had a wife...

You then find yourself in a FALSE and Anti-Scripural situation if you are Catholic doctrine, or if you are a Catholic.

So, who is it that just put the Bible under lock and key and decided to install a "forbidding to MARRY" = "doctrine of devils" as Catholic Church Doctrine that has to be MAINTAINED if you want to be a POPE or a Catholic Priest. ?

Thats the question.
Stay on Topic, BreadofLife, if you can.

And ONLY an idiot or an atheist would NOT understand that sex outside of marriage is called, “Fornication” in Scripture and is strictly forbidden.

SO, Einstein – this IS a conversation about CELIBACY – as endorsed by Paul in the verses I already presented to you back in post #93.
The fact that Peter was married is irrelevant since the strict discipline of celibacy in the Western Church didn’t come into practice until later.
In the Eastern Rites – marriage IS allowed.

You need to take some time off from this place and learn HOW to properly engage in a debate – because you ALWAYS comes unprepared . . .

 

[Philip James]

Who decided that a Pope and a Priest can't have a wife.?

That is a discipine of the Roman rite. With good reason. .

Do you have a problem with men who offer their entire lives to serve Christ and His Church?

Pax et Bonum

Martyrs of Owo,
Pray for us!

 

[Brakelite]

You've got me thinking now. Michael is only mentioned 3 times in the bible, Daniel, Jude and Revelations. I will take your verses to heart brother as I do always have an open mind to be able to remain teachable. God will lead.

Also, how do you reckon Hebrews 1:5 "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"

The word, or title, 'Archangel' literally means, 'head/chief of the angels'. That's it. It doesn't necessarily or automatically mean that Michael is an actual created being... angel. Jesus as we all know and recognize has a similar title... Lord of hosts. In other words, chief/head of the angels. So there is nothing inconsistent in that text which declares, in the form of a question, "to which of the angels did He say, thou art My Son?" The answer being, none. Those first verses in Hebrews were designed and inspired to set the very real difference between the nature and status of the Son compared to angels.

 

[BeyondET]

I asked you for specifics.
WHISH Catholic Traditions have “changed considerably”??
As to your question about Protestants – are you serious – or have you NEVER studied history?
Did you never go to school?

Are YOU a non-Catholic Christian – if do you have another faith tradition?

Yes I'm non catholic and no other denominations, the vatican 2 is about modernization of the catholic church.

But there are quite few that are not needed probably going on since the beginning one being praying to Mary or any other Saint depending on the level of sin is ridiculous, swinging smoke and on on its like theater entertainment.

The public school i went to didn't teach religious history

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes I'm non catholic and no other denominations, the vatican 2 is about modernization of the catholic church.

But there are quite few that are not needed probably going on since the beginning one being praying to Mary or any other Saint depending on the level of sin is ridiculous, swinging smoke and on on its like theater entertainment.

The public school i went to didn't teach religious history

Yes, I realize you're a non-Catholic - but are yo a Christian?
What is your faith tradition?

As to the "Traditions" you listed - you seem confused.
Praying to Mary and the saits has absolutely NOTHING to do with a "level of sin". We simply ASK them to pray FOR us.
That's what "PRay" means:
Full Definition of pray
transitive verb
1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by prayinh
intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

"Worship" or "Adoration" is a SECONDARY definition of "Pray" and us reserved ONLY for God.
YOU pray to people every time you ASK someone a question.

As to the "swingling smole" you referred to - it's incense. Incense is ALL THROUGH the Bible, people used incense to bless and purify. Rev. 5:8 shows those in Heaven taking our prayers to God (interceding for us) as "BOWLS OF INCENSE".
I suggest youo crack open a Bible sometime . . .

As for your shool - they didn't teach HISTORY??
They compleyely SKIPPED the 16th century?? How can you grow into adulthgood and NOT know the difference between a Catholic and a Protestant unless you've been living under a rock?

Finally - you STILL haven't told me which Traditions have “changed considerably”.
Would you mind telling me WHICH ones - or retract your original claim?

 

[Brakelite]

And this says absolutely NOTHING about Sola Scriptura - but thanks foe trying.

I disagree. It says everything you need to know about Sola scriptura. It says if your traditions, your inspirational pep talks, your so called dogmas and doctrines, do not agree with the Bible, there is no light in you. Not no light in your teachings, but no light in you.

 

[Brakelite]

What is desperate are your extremely tangential rants that go in all different directions – and all eventually steer BACK to your bizarre obsession with the Sabbath.

The Sunday/Sabbath issue is key. And you know that, although trying to deny it. I know a little history. I know why the council of Trent was convened, and I know what affected the final decisions regarding refuting the accusations of the reformers against the Papacy concerning tradition. The only reason the Catholics could walk away from that council with any sense of victory over protestantism was despite
there being a strong party even of the Catholics within the council who were in favor of abandoning tradition and adopting the Scriptures only, as the standard of authority. This view was so decidedly held in the debates in the council that the pope's legates actually wrote to him that there was "a strong tendency to set aside tradition altogether and to make Scripture the sole standard of appeal." But to do this would manifestly be to go a long way toward justifying the claims of the Protestants. By this crisis there was developed upon the ultra-Catholic portion of the council the task of convincing the others that "Scripture and tradition" were the only sure ground to stand upon. If this could be done, the council could be carried to issue a decree condemning the Reformation, otherwise not. The question was debated day after day, until the council was fairly brought to a standstill.
Finally, after a long and intensive mental strain, the Archbishop of Reggio came into the council with substantially the following argument to the party who held for Scripture alone: "The Protestants claim to stand upon the written word only. They profess to hold the Scripture alone as the standard of faith. They justify their revolt by the plea that the Church has apostatized from the written word and follows tradition. Now the Protestants' claim, that they stand upon the written word only, is not true. Their profession of holding the Scripture alone as the standard of faith, is false.

PROOF: The written word explicitly enjoins the observance of the seventh day as the Sabbath. They do not observe the seventh day, but reject it. If they do truly hold the Scripture alone as their standard, they would be observing the seventh day as is enjoined in the Scripture throughout. Yet they not only reject the observance of the Sabbath enjoined in the written word, but they have adopted and do practice the observance of Sunday, for which they have only the tradition of the Church. Consequently the claim of 'Scripture alone as the standard,' fails; and the doctrine of 'Scripture and tradition' as essential, is fully established, the Protestants themselves being judges."

There was no getting around this, for the Protestants' own statement of faith -- the Augsburg Confession, 1530 -- had clearly admitted that "the observation of the Lord's day" had been appointed by "the Church" only.
So bread of life, the council of Trent actually contradicts your own statement that the Sabbath was annulled by scripture, and the Augsburg confession as well. At this juncture most protestants would tuck their tails between and disappear. But not adventists. You can't use that argument against us. Your can't defend your tradition/scripture paradigm in the face of those who do actually use scripture alone. That's why the Sabbath is key, and why I refer back to it. Your church had no justification for changing the 4th Commandment. That itself is all the evidence one needs to charge Rome with heresy.

As for HOW the Church in these different countries were connected to the Church in Rome - you answered your own question when you brought up the fat that Thomas and other missionaries evangelized these countries.

They did. But they weren't sent by Rome. They came from Antioch, long before there was any agreement or submission to popery between that city and Rome. And they were in submission to their metropolitan in local areas, who in turn were in submission, not to Rome, but to Bagdad. For example. Please explain the connection between Rome and the church in China in the 4th century. And explain why it was in the 4th century that the only 2 churches that observed Sunday exclusively were in Rome and Alexandria. Elsewhere, in Syria, Assyria, Asia minor, and the churches of the west including the Celtic church, still observed the Sabbath, and were being accused by Rome of heresy for doing so. How is that 'one church in doctrine'???

 

[Behold]

And ONLY an idiot or an atheist would NOT understand that sex outside of marriage is called, “Fornication”

You seem to be having a conversation with yourself.
You can't even respond to what ive shown you 3-4 times.

Here it is again.

1.) Peter, the "supposed" CC's first "pope", = had a WIFE.

2.) Paul said, stated, as a fact that forbidding to marry, (cults), is a "doctrine of Devils".

So, the Catholic Church, has erased the fact that Peter had a WIFE, and has just deleted Paul's truth that "forbidding to marry", is a "doctrine of Devils'..

So, again, for the 4 time i'll ask you.. .who in the "cult of mary" overruled the word of God, ignored Paul's truth, and ignored the FACT that PETER< had a wife, who was with Him in his Ministry. ?

 

[BreadOfLife]

I disagree. It says everything you need to know about Sola scriptura. It says if your traditions, your inspirational pep talks, your so called dogmas and doctrines, do not agree with the Bible, there is no light in you. Not no light in your teachings, but no light in you.

WRONG.
Isaiah 8:20 It says absoluttely nothing about Sola Scriptura - explicitly or implicitly.
I speaks about "the law and to the testimony".

Here are some examples of the OI "Testimony" from the NT that were as binding oon the Jews as what was written:
Matt. 2:23 - the prophecy "He shall be a Nazarene" is ORAL TRADITION.
It is not found in the Old Testament.

Matt 23:2 - Jesus relies on the ORAL TRADITION of acknowledging Moses' seat of authority (which passed from Moses to Joshua to the Sanhedrin).
This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

1 Cor. 10:4 - Paul relies on the ORAL TRADITION of the rock following Moses.
It is not recorded in the Old Testament. See Exod. 17:1-17 and Num. 20:2-13.

2 Timothy 3:8 - Paul relies on the ORAL TRADITION when speaking of Pharoah’s magicians, Jannes and Jambres.
Their names are not recorded in the Old Testament.


NOWHERE does the written Word state that ONLY the wtritten Word is authoritative.

 

[Friends of Jesus]

I think you will do a good job, my friend.

Praying you have a great Friday, my friends; just to say that this world is not my home - I’m just a pilgrim passing through! I repented of my sins and received salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ!
Question: where will any of our members spend eternity?
Reality: you can’t change your mind once death happens!
Question: “For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Mark 8:36
“Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? Mark 8:37
Reality: “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Hebrews 9:27
People don’t waste your life on sin when real love, joy, peace, forgiveness and acceptance can be yours here and now. Selah

 

[BreadOfLife]

You seem to be having a conversation with yourself.
You can't even respond to what ive shown you 3-4 times.
Here it is again.
1.) Peter, the "supposed" CC's first "pope", = had a WIFE.
2.) Paul said, stated, as a fact that forbidding to marry, (cults), is a "doctrine of Devils".

So, the Catholic Church, has erased the fact that Peter had a WIFE, and has just deleted Paul's truth that "forbidding to marry", is a "doctrine of Devils'..

So, again, for the 4 time i'll ask you.. .who in the "cult of mary" overruled the word of God, ignored Paul's truth, and ignored the FACT that PETER< had a wife, who was with Him in his Ministry. ?

You're arguing in CIRCLES sgsin.

Firt, YOU rejected priestly celibacy by eroneously trlating it to the "doctrines of demons" that Paul was describing in 1 Tim. 4.

I responded by giving you a MUCH needed Bible Lesson on Paul's stance on celibacy as a more excellent way to serve God (1 Cor. 7:8-9, 1 Cor. 6:7, 1 Cor. 7:27-34, 1 Cor. 7:38).

SINCE then - you're retreated back to your original grip against the discipline against priests being married - by trying to differentiate from celibacy.
To a CHRISTIAN - sex outside of marriage is fornication - so your point is MOOT.
This is a discussion about Priestly Cwlibacy.

I pointed to thefact that Paul was referring to the Gnostic heretics in 1 Tim 4., who rejected marriage and certain foods" ALTOGETHER as "evil".
This does NOT describe the Catholic Church's teachings.

So - co your HOMEWORK and stop embarrassing yourself . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Sunday/Sabbath issue is key. And you know that, although trying to deny it. I know a little history. I know why the council of Trent was convened, and I know what affected the final decisions regarding refuting the accusations of the reformers against the Papacy concerning tradition. The only reason the Catholics could walk away from that council with any sense of victory over protestantism was despite
there being a strong party even of the Catholics within the council who were in favor of abandoning tradition and adopting the Scriptures only, as the standard of authority. This view was so decidedly held in the debates in the council that the pope's legates actually wrote to him that there was "a strong tendency to set aside tradition altogether and to make Scripture the sole standard of appeal." But to do this would manifestly be to go a long way toward justifying the claims of the Protestants. By this crisis there was developed upon the ultra-Catholic portion of the council the task of convincing the others that "Scripture and tradition" were the only sure ground to stand upon. If this could be done, the council could be carried to issue a decree condemning the Reformation, otherwise not. The question was debated day after day, until the council was fairly brought to a standstill.
Finally, after a long and intensive mental strain, the Archbishop of Reggio came into the council with substantially the following argument to the party who held for Scripture alone: "The Protestants claim to stand upon the written word only. They profess to hold the Scripture alone as the standard of faith. They justify their revolt by the plea that the Church has apostatized from the written word and follows tradition. Now the Protestants' claim, that they stand upon the written word only, is not true. Their profession of holding the Scripture alone as the standard of faith, is false.

PROOF: The written word explicitly enjoins the observance of the seventh day as the Sabbath. They do not observe the seventh day, but reject it. If they do truly hold the Scripture alone as their standard, they would be observing the seventh day as is enjoined in the Scripture throughout. Yet they not only reject the observance of the Sabbath enjoined in the written word, but they have adopted and do practice the observance of Sunday, for which they have only the tradition of the Church. Consequently the claim of 'Scripture alone as the standard,' fails; and the doctrine of 'Scripture and tradition' as essential, is fully established, the Protestants themselves being judges."

There was no getting around this, for the Protestants' own statement of faith -- the Augsburg Confession, 1530 -- had clearly admitted that "the observation of the Lord's day" had been appointed by "the Church" only.
So bread of life, the council of Trent actually contradicts your own statement that the Sabbath was annulled by scripture, and the Augsburg confession as well. At this juncture most protestants would tuck their tails between and disappear. But not adventists. You can't use that argument against us. Your can't defend your tradition/scripture paradigm in the face of those who do actually use scripture alone. That's why the Sabbath is key, and why I refer back to it. Your church had no justification for changing the 4th Commandment. That itself is all the evidence one needs to charge Rome with heresy.

They did. But they weren't sent by Rome. They came from Antioch, long before there was any agreement or submission to popery between that city and Rome. And they were in submission to their metropolitan in local areas, who in turn were in submission, not to Rome, but to Bagdad. For example. Please explain the connection between Rome and the church in China in the 4th century. And explain why it was in the 4th century that the only 2 churches that observed Sunday exclusively were in Rome and Alexandria. Elsewhere, in Syria, Assyria, Asia minor, and the churches of the west including the Celtic church, still observed the Sabbath, and were being accused by Rome of heresy for doing so. How is that 'one church in doctrine'???

Jesus encapsulated the heart od this teaching in TWO verses that seems to have eluded SDAs – indeed ALL radical Sabbatarians,

After eating the bread meant for the Temple priests and giving some to his disciples, He said:
Mark 2:27-28
“The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.”

Paul drives this point hom in Col. 2:16-17 – another passage that is always twisted by SDAs
Col. 2:16-17
Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon OR A SABBATH.

These are a SHADOW of the things to come, but the SUBSTANCE belongs to Christ

The very FIRST mention of the Sabbath in ALL of Scripture is when the Israelues are in the desert Ex 16:23-30. God commands them to take a day of rest and eat what they gathered.

WHAT dud they gather? Jesus tells us about that in John 6:
John 6:31-34
“Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”

Read CAREFULLY what Jesus says next . . .
John 6:35
Jesus said to them, “I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

HE is the entire reason for the Sabbath – and He FULFILLED it with His death and resurrection.
- It was INSTITUTED for the eating of the Bread from Heaven (Manna).
- It was FULFILLED by the eating of the Br4ad of Life (Jesus).

This is why the NT Church gathered on the LORD’S Day – the FIRST day of the week (Acts 20:7, 1 Cor. 16:2, Rev. 1:10) - and NOT on the Sabbath which has been fulfilled.

And this is ALSO why the Apostles did NOT impost the Law on Gentile Christians as we read in their letter in Acts 15:23-29.

And there you have it, folks . . .
The Sabbath, which POINTED to Jesus – was FUFILLED by Him.

 

[BeyondET]

Yes, I realize you're a non-Catholic - but are yo a Christian?
What is your faith tradition?

As to the "Traditions" you listed - you seem confused.
Praying to Mary and the saits has absolutely NOTHING to do with a "level of sin". We simply ASK them to pray FOR us.
That's what "PRay" means:
Full Definition of pray
transitive verb
1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by prayinh
intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

"Worship" or "Adoration" is a SECONDARY definition of "Pray" and us reserved ONLY for God.
YOU pray to people every time you ASK someone a question.

As to the "swingling smole" you referred to - it's incense. Incense is ALL THROUGH the Bible, people used incense to bless and purify. Rev. 5:8 shows those in Heaven taking our prayers to God (interceding for us) as "BOWLS OF INCENSE".
I suggest youo crack open a Bible sometime . . .

As for your shool - they didn't teach HISTORY??
They compleyely SKIPPED the 16th century?? How can you grow into adulthgood and NOT know the difference between a Catholic and a Protestant unless you've been living under a rock?

Finally - you STILL haven't told me which Traditions have “changed considerably”.
Would you mind telling me WHICH ones - or retract your original claim?

Yes I'm a Christian, I apologize I miss quoted a site talking about levels of sin though queen Mary is the one to pray to for sins catholic false doctrine.

The other parity who were other humans are used to pray to like Matthew if your having money problems, Jude if your having problems with pregnancy, others for anxiety, depression, ingrown toe nail.
It's all totally unbiblical. Just because it's ok for the living to pray for the living doesn't make it ok to pray to the dead.

If anybody is praying to a Saint the prayer will not be answered there only one God and One mediator intercessor etc.

The catholic have made false doctrine out of many things. No Mary did not have compassion for the wedding reception guest, she wanted the party to go smoothly thus Jesus reaction to the request woman why you concern me with this trivial stuff.

The prayers of the saints are all people and all things there is no parity dropping prayers in a bowl because someone prayed to a dead saint.

Since around 08 it is known incense is toxic really need to move on from the elementary stuff most of the incense accounts are from the OT.
Ireland is talking about Banning the stuff, the catholic church in Ireland are looking into it they really need to stop swinging the toxic smoke

 

[theefaith]

Since four rounds of balloting are taken every day until a candidate receives two-thirds of the vote. In the past, 15 to 20 days after a papal vacancy, the cardinals gathered in St. Peter's Basilica for a Mass invoking the guidance of the Holy Spirit in electing a new Pope. Only cardinals under the age of 80 are eligible to vote in a conclave.

Question: What makes a "cardinal" incorruptible?

do you mean infallible?

For example, a Pope is voted in by cardinals, what makes a cardinal worthy? is it an exam or test he must pass? And, if so, then couldn't anyone pass that same exam and then be worthy to vote in a Pope. Haven't some early Popes bought their way into the papacy?

Possible!

a cardinal is an apostle/ bishop who has authority from Christ to govern the church, could be the head of a dept of the church or the spiritual head of a country

Is not the Pope voted into an incorruptible office by corruptible man? And, once in power, have not a few proceeded to become drunken with power, deeming heresies? And, being equal to scripture authority may say NO MORE SOLA SCRIPTURA?

they are not impeccable

Athanasius Creed:
Whoever desires to be saved must above all hold to the catholic faith.
Anyone who does not keep it whole and entire will doubtless perish eternally.

That's quite a statement. Is that designed to keep life long customers? And, this is coming from an incorruptible office?

I love the Catholic people, but hate certain doctrines of those in authority over them.

what doctrines?

As far as the creed goes there is only one church founded by Christ on Peter and apostles Matt 16:18-19 Jn 20:21 Jn 10:16 eph 2:20

the church is the ark of salvation

The church is founded by Christ and the sacraments are instituted by Christ for the salvation of all men!

The church and Jesus are one: acts 9:4 Jn 15:1-5 eph 5:32

The church and the sacraments are necessary for and the means of salvation and the life of grace!

Redemption: Eph 2
Justification: Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 Acts 2:38
Sanctification: Jn 1:16 Jn 10:10 Jn 15:5
Salvation: Matt 24:13 Rom 13:11

The body of Christ:
1 Corinthians 12:27

The one true church:
Matt 16:18 Jn 10:16

The household of faith:
Gal 6:10

The house of God:
1 Tim 3:15

The church of the living God:
1 Tim 3:15

The kingdom of God on earth:
Dan 2:44 Matt 6:33 Matt 16:18 Matt 12:28 Mk 1:15 Jn 3:3-5 Acts 8:12 1 Cor 4:20 Col 4:11 1 Thes 2:12 Rev 1:9 12:10

The new and eternal covenant:
The one fold of Christ:

The new covenant body of Christ church is an ark, the ark of Peter, the ark of Noah was a type, all those outside the ark died, and all those outside the church die spiritually, there is no life outside of Noah’s ark and there is no spiritual life or salvation outside of the church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles!

1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

Christian ritual of baptism:
Immersion, sprinkling, pour pure water over the forehead three time with the words, I baptize thee in the name of the father, and of the son, and of the Holy Spirit! Ez 36:25-27 Mk 16:16 Matt 28:19 Acts 2:38-39 Acts 8:36-38 Acts 22:16
1 Pet 3:21

 

[theefaith]

Truth must be revealed by God, and in its fullness in the sacred deposit of faith by Christ to his church! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3 and must be taught by the church, or proposed for our belief by the apostles!
Matt 28:19-20 Lk 1:4 Jn 20:21 acts 8:31 Rom 1:5 col 2:7 1 Tim 3:15
matt 18:17

Christ and His church are one! acts 9:4 Acts 5:32 Jn 15:1-5

Truth is immutable! Cannot change!

And same truths revealed by Christ and taught by the church are always believed and taught from the beginning when Christ taught his church in person! Jude 1:3 the faith once delivered to the saints or the deposit of faith eph 4:5 one faith!


Truth must be revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles Jude 1:3) then must be proposed by the church, (Matt 28:19 gal 3:23) without error by the Holy Spirit! (Jn 16:13)

The evidence of true faith is humble subjection and obedience to Christ & His holy church!

The rule of faith for Christians is Jesus Christ Jn 14:6 and His church! Matt 18:17 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

True Christians cannot listen to the errors of excommunicated heretics, but we listen faithfully to Christ, in the bosom of holy mother church, the only ark of salvation!
1 pet 3:20-21 matt 18:17 matt 16:18-19 matt 28:19-20 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-23

Truth must be revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles Jude 1:3) then must be proposed by the church, (Matt 28:19 gal 3:23) without error by the Holy Spirit! (Jn 16:13)

Christ and His church are one! (Acts 9:4 eph 5:31 Jn 15:1-5)

Rejection of the one true church or its teaching is rejection of Christ and God!

Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32 Jn 8:12 & Matt 5:14



God does not reveal His truth in a vacuum!

God does not set His true adrift on a sea of spiritual anarchy!

God sets His truth in His church, in the possession of His apostles to safeguard, to ensure it is not added to, or taken away from, or changed in any way!

And to teach the same truth to all nations and all ages!

Verified by scripture:

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost!

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints!

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness!
(all scripture not 66 books alone)

Must be instructed in the faith:

Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations…

Jn 29:21-23 as the father sent me, so I send you. (Same mission, power, and authority to teach all nations)

Lk 10:16 He who hears you, (His apostles) hear me.

Jn 13:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jn 8:32 You (the apostles) shall know the truth; and the truth shall make you free.

Jn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
(His apostles)


The whole purpose for the church of Jesus Christ is to teach all nations the truths revealed by Christ and the salvation of souls!




Tradition in this sense means teaching the faith!


Divine tradition:
Apostolic tradition:
Inspired human tradition:








Christians must be instructed in “the faith”!

Truth must be revealed by God, and in its fullness in the sacred deposit of faith by Christ to his church! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3 and must be taught by the church, or proposed for our belief by the apostles!
Matt 28:19-20 Lk 1:4 Jn 20:21 acts 8:31 Rom 1:5 col 2:7 1 Tim 3:15
matt 18:17

Christ and His church are one! acts 9:4 Acts 5:32 Jn 15:1-5

Truth must be revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles Jude 1:3) then must be proposed by the church, (Matt 28:19 gal 3:23) without error by the Holy Spirit! (Jn 16:13)

Christ and His church are one! (Acts 9:4 eph 5:31 Jn 15:1-5)

Rejection of the one true church or its teaching is rejection of Christ and God!

Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32 Jn 8:12 & Matt 5:14

Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, so send in you. (The apostles) posses the same power mission and authority as Christ!

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18
matt 28:19 Jn 20:21-23 Isa 22:21-22
eph 2:20

Ephesians 5:24
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ...

The one true church’s teaching authority from Christ is without error!

A divine institution: founded by Christ on Peter and the holy apostles and their successors unto the end!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!

Christ and His church are one! Jn 15:1-5 Acts 9:4 eph 5:32

Church has authority from Christ!

Church is free from all error!

Mt 16:18 & mt 18:18 Mt 28:19-20

Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16

Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5

Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

The one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles is an extension church of Christ’s ministry of redemption to the whole world and all time!

Christ perpetuates his mission, power, and authority in the holy church!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

The evidence of true faith is humble subjection and obedience to Christ & His holy church!

The rule of faith for Christians is Jesus Christ Jn 14:6 and His church! Matt 18:17 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Truth is revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles) Jude 1:3 then proposed by the church! Matt 28:19

Christ and His church are one!

Rejection of the one true church or its teaching is rejection of Christ and God!

Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32 Jn 8:12 & Matt 5:14

Dan 2:44 Isa 2:2 Micah 4:1 fulfilled in matt 5:14

matt 16:18-19 shall not prevail
Matt 18:17 hear the truth from the church
1 Tim 3:15 the church is the pillar and ground of truth.

Faith ascents & never protests or rebels!
Spiritual Pride protests & is always in rebellion

The nature of spiritual pride is rebellion!
Spiritual pride must protest, and must be right!

Christ and His one true church cannot be right or my self-righteous personal interpretation base on spiritual pride and private judgement must be wrong, and that is unacceptable!

Truth must be revealed by God, and taught by the church, proposed for our belief, we must be instructed!
Matt 28:19 Lk 1:4 Acts 8:31 Lk 10:16 Jn 21:17 Jn 16:13 acts 2:42


Nature of doctrine:

Truth or doctrine MUST be Revealed by God And Proposed by the church for belief, not spiritual pride and self-righteous private judgement!
Claim: “scripture alone”
It’s really just the ugly repugnant pride!
It’s no faith at all only spiritual pride and self-righteous private judgement!
They Hope in creatures not in God!

It is unlawful to refuse to accept a truth revealed by God!

Matt 28:19 eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

Truth matters! It is revealed by God and therefore CANNOT be changed!
The church likewise is founded by Christ and therefore CANNOT be reformed!

Christ founded the church to teach and rule all nations!





Truth must be revealed by God, and in its fullness in the sacred deposit of faith by Christ to his church! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3 and must be taught by the church, or proposed for our belief by the apostles!
Matt 28:19-20 Lk 1:4 Jn 20:21 acts 8:31 Rom 1:5 col 2:7 1 Tim 3:15
matt 18:17

Christ and His church are one! acts 9:4 Acts 5:32 Jn 15:1-5

Truth must be revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles Jude 1:3) then must be proposed by the church, (Matt 28:19 gal 3:23) without error by the Holy Spirit! (Jn 16:13)

The evidence of true faith is humble subjection and obedience to Christ & His holy church!

The rule of faith for Christians is Jesus Christ Jn 14:6 and His church! Matt 18:17 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

True Christians cannot listen to the errors of excommunicated heretics, but we listen faithfully to Christ, in the bosom of holy mother church, the only ark of salvation!
1 pet 3:20-21 matt 18:17 matt 16:18-19 matt 28:19-20 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-23

Truth must be revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles Jude 1:3) then must be proposed by the church, (Matt 28:19 gal 3:23) without error by the Holy Spirit! (Jn 16:13)

Christ and His church are one! (Acts 9:4 eph 5:31 Jn 15:1-5)

Rejection of the one true church or its teaching is rejection of Christ and God!

Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32 Jn 8:12 & Matt 5:14

 

[theefaith]

The doctrine of the “Bible alone” or the “Bible is the only source of authority”

Deny’s the divine tradition: Christ teaching the apostles in person.

Deny’s the power of the Holy Spirit: to guide the apostles into all truth, Jn 16:13 and to governing the church. And be witnesses for Christ. Acts 1:8

Deny’s the apostolic tradition:
Authority to define scripture:
Authority to interpret scripture:
Authority to teach the entire divine revelation.

Denys the authority other than the “Bible alone! Including
Divine authority
Apostolic authority
angelic authority
Civil authority
Parental authority


Restricts the divine revelation and the word of God to scripture alone.

Provides no authority to know what is scripture.
Provides no authority to know what is not scripture.
Provides no authority to safeguard and protect scripture from errors.
Provides no authority to teach scripture without error.
Provides no authority to interpret scripture.

Reasons to oppose the doctrine of the “Bible alone”

Blind or illiterate and cannot read scripture. (Most people before the 20th century were illiterate)
Rare & Expensive (even after the printing press)
Faith comets by hearing not reading.


The Bible alone does not teach the doctrine of the “Bible alone”.

Biblical reference to authority other than the Bible alone.
Matt 16:18-19
Matt 18:18
Matt 28:18-20
Matt 18:17
Jn 20:21-23
Acts 2:42
Acts 8:31
1 Tim 3:15


When God called abram, Moses, the prophets, John the Baptist, and apostles it was not by the “Bible alone” Lk 3:2 the word of God came to John in the wilderness… a book did not fall out of the sky.


There is no list of scripture in scripture!

How does a person know what books, chapters, and verses are scripture and which ones are not?


The word of God is not limited to the “Bible alone”!

The word of God came to Abraham, to Moses, the prophets, and to John the Baptist in the wilderness (Lk3:2) but it did not come by the Bible, or the “Bible alone” not by any book, chapter, or verse!


Scripture all scripture is inspired, all the books and chapters of the canonical scripture authorized by Christ and His church!

The teaching authority of the apostles is the God breathed word of God!

Jn 20:23 He breathed on them (the apostles) and said receive the Holy Spirit…

Lk 10:16 he who hears you (the apostles) hears me. (Hears the word of God)

Jn 20:21 as the father sent me, I send you.

Acts 2:42 the doctrine of the apostles is the word of God!

Matt 28:18-20

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

1 cor 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

1 Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ

1 Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

(The apostles received the word of God and handed it down to us, partly in the scripture)

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

All scripture is inspired! 2 Tim 3:16
(Not only 66 books with missing chapters)

2 John 1:12
Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.

Did the apostle John possess the truth? Or only when He wrote it down did it become the truth?

Is what He taught only mere human tradition of men? But what He wrote was the inspired word?

Why is there joy complete in the person of the apostle?


The doctrine of the “Bible alone”
or that the church believes by the “Bible alone” is a heresy!


The truth is revealed by God thru Christ and taught by His church with the unity of the spirit and obedience of faith! Jude 1:3 Matt 28:19
One shepherd & on flock!
Jn 10:16


Scripture challenge!

Show me from or in “the Bible alone”?

1) a list (not contents) of the Ten Commandments.

2) what things is Lk 1:49 referring to.

3) what Christ commanded his apostles in Matt 28:20

4) a list of scripture (books chapters) in scripture?



Not in Bible not important
Acts 8 the eunuch had scripture, God sent an apostle to teach him!
Lk 3:2 the word of God came unto John in the wilderness, a book did not fall out of the sky!
Jn 21:25 many more things than those in scripture!
2 Jn 1:12 the apostle in person makes their joy complete not scripture!


Essential doctrine:
Some doctrines are necessary and some are not is error, it is unlawful and forbidden to reject a truth revealed by God, who can neither deceive or be deceived.

Examples of oral tradition! (Teaching)

Peter speaks at Pentecost acts 2
Paul speaks at Athens acts
Even Christ teaching the divine revelation to His apostles in person.

WHEN???

When did it become divine revelation?
When did it become the inspired word of God?

When it was Spoken by Christ to His apostles?

When it was taught by the apostles?

When it was Written down decades latter?

When it was canonized by the supreme Roman pontiff in 381?

When did it become the inspired word of God?

If only when written down (Bible alone) then when it was spoken it should have been rejected as mere human tradition or the tradition of men, and therefore they would not possess the truths revealed by God and could not write scripture!

If you believe the false doctrine of the “Bible alone is the only authority” then you must reject the authority of Christ and His apostles!

It is an error to believe that the office or authority of the apostles ended with the apostle John and public revelation, revelation was complete with the apostle John but the teaching authority or office of the apostles must continue till the return of Jesus Christ! Matt 28:19-20 I am with you (the apostles) unto the end of the world.

Tongues of fire at Pentecost represent the light of divine Truth and the fire of divine Love!

The apostles possessed the Authority of Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit in their persons! Acts 1:8 2 Jn 1:12










Questions about the doctrine of the “Bible alone” or the “Bible is our only authority”?

How can we know what is scripture?

How can we know what is not scripture?

How can we safeguard and protect scripture from errors?

Who has authority to teach scripture without error?

Where does scripture say: “the Bible alone”?

Why does scripture support tradition? The teaching authority of the apostles?

Who has authority to Authentically interpret scripture?

Where does it say the word of God is limited to the “Bible alone”?

Why does scripture teach the authority of Christ in His church in the persons of the apostles?
AKA The Apostolic Tradition (teaching)










Sola scriptura?

Jn 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

2 John 1:12
Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, andspeak face to face, that our joy may be full.

2 Corinthians 1:15
And in this confidence I was minded to come unto you before, that ye might have a second benefit;

if an apostle teaches by:

Smoke signals
Sign language
Radio
TV
Internet or
In person

we refuse to accept it!

But if he writes it down then and only then will we believe!

even though the content is exactly the same!

the apostles themselves have no authority!
Only what the write!!!!

fundamentalism is faith without reason, logic, or rational thought!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes I'm a Christian, I apologize I miss quoted a site talking about levels of sin though queen Mary is the one to pray to for sins catholic false doctrine.

The other parity who were other humans are used to pray to like Matthew if your having money problems, Jude if your having problems with pregnancy, others for anxiety, depression, ingrown toe nail.
It's all totally unbiblical. Just because it's ok for the living to pray for the living doesn't make it ok to pray to the dead.

If anybody is praying to a Saint the prayer will not be answered there only one God and One mediator intercessor etc.

The catholic have made false doctrine out of many things. No Mary did not have compassion for the wedding reception guest, she wanted the party to go smoothly thus Jesus reaction to the request woman why you concern me with this trivial stuff.

The prayers of the saints are all people and all things there is no parity dropping prayers in a bowl because someone prayed to a dead saint.

Since around 08 it is known incense is toxic really need to move on from the elementary stuff most of the incense accounts are from the OT.
Ireland is talking about Banning the stuff, the catholic church in Ireland are looking into it they really need to stop swinging the toxic smoke

This response is filled with so much ignorant nonsense – it
Sa really difficult to know just WHERE to begin – but here goes . . .

- First of all – I finally got you to admit that you are a non-Catholic “Christian” – yet you have “No idea” what the difference is between Protestant and Catholic.
- I asked you where you got your OT Canon of Scripture – and you didn’t know that either.
- You made a claim that the Catholic Church’s Traditions have “changed considerably”. When I asked you repeatedly to identify some of those Traditions – you failed miserably.

The ONE thing you seem to bee “sure” of is that the Catholic Church has a lot of “bad teachings – and you screwed up those as well.

Let’s begin with praying to the saints – which I ALREADY educated you about a few posts back. In the depths of your ignorance – you are under the roidiculous notion that “Prayer” means ”Worship.”
In post #107, I gave you the following definition from Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary - so pay attention this time . . .

Full Definition of pray
transitive verb
1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by prayinh

intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

As I told you before – “Worship” is a SECONDARY definition and is reserved for GOD ALONE.
"Pray" is a legal, huruducal term that us used in court coduments and police reports.
YOU pray to people EVERY TIME you “ASK” a question or a favor of someone.

We are commanded in the Bible to pray for one another (James 5:16). Guess what?? That makes ALL of us mediators and intercessors.
As menbers of the Body oof Christ - we pray for each other. Tell me - when did the saints in Heaven get KICKED OUT of the Body of Christ??
I must have missed that meeting . . .

1 Tim. 2:4 states that Jesus us our ONLY mediator because ONLY HIS sacrifice can bring peace between us and the Father.
In PRAYER, however – we are ALL called to be mediators.

Now - go to your attic and dig around for your dust-covered Bible. Blow off the dust and crack it open to Colossians:
Col. 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church

Does this mean that PAIL died for your sins?
NO – it means that we all SHARE in the sufferings of Christ for the good of the Church.

As for your made-up nonsense about Mary at the Wedding at Cana – and your idiocy about incense – they are TOO STUPID for me to waste time addressing.
Suffice it to say – you have A LOT to learn before we can have ANYTHING that even resembles an "intelligent" conversation . . .

 

[BeyondET]

This response is filled with so much ignorant nonsense – it
Sa really difficult to know just WHERE to begin – but here goes . . .

- First of all – I finally got you to admit that you are a non-Catholic “Christian” – yet you have “No idea” what the difference is between Protestant and Catholic.
- I asked you where you got your OT Canon of Scripture – and you didn’t know that either.
- You made a claim that the Catholic Church’s Traditions have “changed considerably”. When I asked you repeatedly to identify some of those Traditions – you failed miserably.

The ONE thing you seem to bee “sure” of is that the Catholic Church has a lot of “bad teachings – and you screwed up those as well.

Let’s begin with praying to the saints – which I ALREADY educated you about a few posts back. In the depths of your ignorance – you are under the roidiculous notion that “Prayer” means ”Worship.”
In post #107, I gave you the following definition from Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary - so pay attention this time . . .

Full Definition of pray
transitive verb
1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by prayinh

intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

As I told you before – “Worship” is a SECONDARY definition and is reserved for GOD ALONE.
"Pray" is a legal, huruducal term that us used in court coduments and police reports.
YOU pray to people EVERY TIME you “ASK” a question or a favor of someone.

We are commanded in the Bible to pray for one another (James 5:16).
Guess what?? That makes ALL of us mediators and intercessors.

1 Tim. 2:4 states that Jesus us our ONLY mediator because ONLY HIS sacrifice can bring peace between us and the Father.
In PRAYER, however – we are ALL called to be mediators.

Now - go to your attic and dig around for your dust-covered Bible. Blow off the dust and crack it open to Colossians:
Col. 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church

Does this mean that PAIL died for your sins?
NO – it means that we all SHARE in the sufferings of Christ for the good of the Church.

As for your made-up nonsense about Mary at the Wedding at Cana – and your idiocy about incense – they are TOO STUPID for me to waste time addressing.
Suffice it to say – you have A LOT to learn before we can have ANYTHING that even resembles an "intelligent" conversation . . .

Not doubt you enjoy trying to belittle others its pretty obvious it is your game and dead people are not mediators.

To each other who are living you cannot pray to a dead person period its a verse the catholics use to justify the action.

That is nonsense about the catholic believing Mary had compassion on the people at the wedding almost the whole doctrine of praying to Mary is built around the idea. You need to learn about the catholics as well.

There is few things they changed that wasn't negative one being owning slaves a few past pope's owned slaves they finally changed their view on it in 1800's..
Just type in Google "changes to catholic doctrine over the years" you will find plenty of changes to its doctrine