Edward Fudge: Hero Or Heretic?

[YeshuaFan1]

The burden of proof is on the prosecution.

Pastor Russell, Joseph Smith, and Ellen White were deluded from satan!

 

[YeshuaFan1]

And all the better for it, I'm sure.

Too bad you didn't actually answer the question that was asked. Instead, you answered the question in your head--the one that would give you the opportunity to spew more of your slanderous tripe.

You say you oppose the Theology, but I notice 8 of your 12 points start with the word "They," as if we were all robots and believed exactly the same things.

You've already proved you have no real interest in what Adventists believe by your handling of the 'annihilationism at Christ's 2nd coming' affair, so how can we trust you to make reliable lists? You're no authority on what Adventists believe, unless muck-raking can be seen as authority.

They add Ellen White to be just as inspired as the Bible, teach works salvation!

 

[YeshuaFan1]

Good question! There are several characteristics of a cult, and they overlap, so I will focus on the issue you seem to be wondering about most: Why do I consider the SDA church a cult?

1. They venerate Ellen White, who has made many stupid rules having no basis in medicine nor in the Bible
2. Despite her many obvious failures as a prophet, violating Deuteronomy 18. they believe her "spirit of prophecy" is ongoing
3. They offer a food-oriented works "salvation"
4. They believe that her fits of catalepsy are visions from God
5. They believe that no one could be saved until 1844 and beyond
6. Ellen was a Millerite, and participated with him in person; Millerites eventually became Jehovah Witnesses
7. They reject the major Ecumenical Creeds: Apostle's Creed, Athanasian Creed and the Nicean Creed
8. They condescendingly call churches which worship on Sunday "Sunday Worshipers" because the only true day to worship is Saturday"
9. They extinguish the deity of Jesus Christ saying he came in sinful flesh, and had infinite power because He perfectly obeyed God
10. The work of Jesus on the Cross is insufficient; each person participates in his own salvation, thus denying the sovereignty of God
11. They believe we are justified by belief in Christ, but this is only the beginning of our salvation.
12. The writings of Ellen White speak with "prophetic authority"

These are just a few of the reasons why I am adamantly against SDA theology. Recently, they revised their 28 Fundamental beliefs to obscure many things that were more obvious in previous editions of their FBs. At one time in the last 10 years, I had a listing of their more plainly stated FBs and was able to explicate them. Alas! I lost them in a crash.

You asked the question, so now you have some of my many reasons for my continued opposition to SDA theology

Sda elevates teachings of Ellen White on par as Jesus and Apostles, and teach salvation by sabbath keeping!

 

[bbyrd009]

I am teaching wrong??
I doubt that very much, especially since God provided His only begotten Son (brought forth from everlasting) to be HIS Sacrifice for us!

Because the Father loves us so much (John 3:16) and wants us back to Himself, He provided the Mediator- THE Lamb of God.
For without Jesus, God the Father cannot, and would not ever be able to Live within us!! Yes!! God the Father required a Mediator just as much as we did!
He desires to live within His Son AND US, and nowhere else!!

go with that then, and as i said best of luck to you
more to the story though k

 

[ChristisGod]

She taught that God had closed the door to any more getting saved, as Jesus would return in her lifetime!

So she was wrong on both accounts. Thanks !

 

[ChristisGod]

The main points that define a Biblical cult such as JW/Mormon and Sda are that they all hold to a salvation of a mixture of grace and good works, hold to another inspired set of books or teachings, have a wrong view on nature and person of Christ, and see themselves as being only true Christian church today!

Any church that claims such a heretical view is a cult for sure. Unless you are one of them you are out of luck. Sounds like the RCC.

 

[bbyrd009]

"Legalism" means righteousness by works, no? Seventh-day Adventists don't teach that, Bbyrd. They teach that faith without works is dead. :)

i found them to be very nice, quite judgemental ppl, rather unlike you or bl for the most part

 

[bbyrd009]

If that is the case, then they need not keep the sabbath verbatim!
And yes, it is being done verbatim, out fear of losing their Salvation in Christ!

ha well i even keep the sabbath, verbatim; it is a Commandment, after all?

but i guess we differ on the def of "salvation" anyway

^ Oh and BTW "faith without works is dead", IS NOT talking about you or anyone keeping the 10C Law, but rather the Righteousness of God in Christ, by Him doing HIS own works of Righteousness through you/us!!

Law keeping verbatim gets no ground with God, no matter how earnest or sincere.
God wants to establish His works of His Righteousness within us and through us, and NOT "the righteouness of the Law" of which doesn't even come close to God's Righteousness of Himself.

You need to study MORE in the Epistles of Paul in the N/C, and NONE of Moses and the Law out of the O/C.
You need to stop blending the two Covenants, for your own sake!
You do know which one was made null and void by the Blood of Christ.
So now, get away from it.

lol, priceless

what is satan's dialectic, Eb?

You and I, who are born again

ha glory

i mean, you dont think its maybe a bit presumptuous to say that Eb?

 

[amadeus]

The main points that define a Biblical cult such as JW/Mormon and Sda are that they all hold to a salvation of a mixture of grace and good works, hold to another inspired set of books or teachings, have a wrong view on nature and person of Christ, and see themselves as being only true Christian church today!

Thank you! I don't know about the JWs, but I do not believe the Mormon and SDA teach that only their members may be saved.

Perhaps that is a rule written into their official doctrines, but with the SDA on this and other forums I have never heard such a thing.

On the Mormons my only full brother was a Mormon for many years and I also used to regularly converse with many of their door to door missionaries. They did not believe that only practicing connected Mormons could be saved.

 

[john t]

Christophany said: ↑
I'm speaking of the founders not the current state of the SDA just an FYI. The founders of the SDA and JW organization were false prophets.

The burden of proof is on the prosecution.

In a Court of Law, that is true. However this is a debate/discussion. Similarly, the burden of proof falls on the affirmative side

Thank you for your response. I now understand where you apparently are on the SDA but being not more than superficially aware of their practices and beliefs myself other than their Saturday-Sabbath difference... without an in depth study on each point, I could not easily confirm what you are saying.

However, while I suspect it is contained in your 12 points, what I was looking for was a clear definition of the word, cult, as you use it which you might apply to any church group... that is, not only the SDA. You did not provide that.

True, I did not answer your question directly. Here is why:
"There are several characteristics of a cult, and they overlap, so I will focus on the issue you seem to be wondering about most: Why do I consider the SDA church a cult?"

I jumped to the issue that I thought you were ultimately asking.

This is what Merriam - Webster states, and perhaps now you can understand why I glossed over your direct question:
Definition of cult


1: a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious (see SPURIOUS sense 2)also : its body of adherents the voodoo cult a satanic cult
2a: great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (such as a film or book)criticizing how the media promotes the cult of celebrity especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad
b: the object of such devotion
c: a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion the singer's cult of fansT he film has a cult following.
3: a system of religious beliefs and ritual also : its body of adherentst he cult of Apollo
4: formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
5: a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator health cults

 

[bbyrd009]

"cult" is a dirty word now, but it wasnt always that way i guess, it and "culture" are the same root?

If you could have been bothered to read more of the eschatological parts of the document, you would have seen that Seventh-day Adventists believe that Christ comes before the millennium to gather His elect, and then carries them to Heaven to reign with Him and that sin and sinners are finally eradicated after the millennium when Christ (with the saints in the New Jerusalem) descend upon the earth for the 3rd time.

While the saved reconnect with God, Satan and his followers are trapped on Earth by themselves. After a thousand years God will resurrect the lost for the final judgment before destroying sin and sinners.
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close, Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)

Taken from:
The Millennium and the End of Sin | Adventist.org

sing it with me lol,
Toooooo-morrow, tomorrow...

 

[bbyrd009]

The sheep and goats are even now being separated.

dont be too surprised when those flip on you imo :)

 

[BarneyFife]

are you saying she never predicted the return of Christ would occur in the 1840's - 1850's ?

She never predicted that, no. She believed He would return in 1844 when she was 17 years old, but she didn't make the prediction.

 

[bbyrd009]

Pastor Russell, Joseph Smith, and Ellen White were deluded from satan!

ha puts them right where i am i guess

that is easy to say, yeh, but those names did not become well known in a vacuum eh

Sda elevates teachings of Ellen White on par as Jesus and Apostles, and teach salvation by sabbath keeping!

well i mean she said some good stuff too?

 

[amadeus]

True, I did not answer your question directly. Here is why:
"There are several characteristics of a cult, and they overlap, so I will focus on the issue you seem to be wondering about most: Why do I consider the SDA church a cult?"

I jumped to the issue that I thought you were ultimately asking.

You used the word, cult. I am aware of dictionary definitions, but people quite often have their own definitions according to something in their own minds and their own set of beliefs. This is why I asked for the definition to see what your basis was.

As for myself, I have not used the word, cult, in reference to any religious group, Christian or otherwise in many years, because in my experience I saw too many problems in all religious groups supposedly based on the Bible, to attach the word with its negative connotation to one group and not to all of the others. They all have some error, so then, would they or should they not all be called cults? Perhaps, but I chose the pathway of presuming that someone within them was sincere with God, so why not deal with people one at the time as there is a need?

This is what Merriam - Webster states, and perhaps now you can understand why I glossed over your direct question:
Definition of cult


1: a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious (see SPURIOUS sense 2)also : its body of adherents the voodoo cult a satanic cult
2a: great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (such as a film or book)criticizing how the media promotes the cult of celebrity especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad
b: the object of such devotion
c: a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion the singer's cult of fansT he film has a cult following.
3: a system of religious beliefs and ritual also : its body of adherentst he cult of Apollo
4: formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
5: a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator health cults

 

[amadeus]

"cult" is a dirty word now, but it wasnt always that way i guess, it and "culture" are the same root?

This I guess is even closer to the reason why I don't use the word, "cult" to describe religious groups... because of this 'dirty word' factor. It is usually a generalization, which according to the definitions intended [not necessarily those according to Webster and such] should not, I believe, be applied. That is my opinion and others have their opinions. Where does slander come into this discussion? Where does charity toward others come into it?

 

[YeshuaFan1]

Any church that claims such a heretical view is a cult for sure. Unless you are one of them you are out of luck. Sounds like the RCC.

Yes indeed, as there are saved Catholics, but the actual teaching of Rome is Apostate!

 

[YeshuaFan1]

She never predicted that, no. She believed He would return in 1844 when she was 17 years old, but she didn't make the prediction.

She stated in one of their meetings that some alive at that time would see Jesus, and all there have since died!

 

[ChristisGod]

Yes indeed, as there are saved Catholics, but the actual teaching of Rome is Apostate!

Agreed

 

[YeshuaFan1]

This I guess is even closer to the reason why I don't use the word, "cult" to describe religious groups... because of this 'dirty word' factor. It is usually a generalization, which according to the definitions intended [not necessarily those according to Webster and such] should not, I believe, be applied. That is my opinion and others have their opinions. Where does slander come into this discussion? Where does charity toward others come into it?

Cult is meant to be a "dirty word", as it describes a group or church that claims to be Christian. and yet is not!