Edward Fudge: Hero Or Heretic?

[Brakelite]

Is it justice to have a Hitler or a Stalin getting same ending as a Grandma who refused Jesus as her Lord

Yes!

SMH

 

[Brakelite]

Well we certainly have the organized or unorganized churches today in the thousands which according to them are rooted in the Bible yet they disagree sharply on things which may be important. How can that be?

Maybe it is easier to see these differences on a forum like this where members who don't or won't visit each other's assemblies are expressing their views. Hmmm? This could be perhaps an opportunity to learn truth... if a person's mind and heart are not closed and they really are striving to allow the Holy Spirit to lead them?

I found it impossible to stay a Catholic after learning that Jesus actually lives and wants to be our friend. Relationship trumped ritualism.
I then found it impossible to stay a Pentecostal after learning of the Sabbath. The Sabbath led me to other revelations equally astonishing. Astonishingbecause after 45 years a Christian, I had never heard of these alternate perspectives which made just so much more sense. Yet it took me a further 5 years to join the SDA Church because
A. I didn't know enough about them and didn't trust them and
B. Heard rumors they were evil occult weird people who sacrificed children on Sabbath among other things.

Not surprised I'm beginning to hear those same rumors here... Been there done that.

 

[Earburner]

What do you think is actually coming back with the Lord when their body is still in the ground in 1 Thessalonians 4:

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Exactly that of what you quoted and what you said.
For one to be asleep in Jesus, they were born again by HIS Holy Spirit, while they still had breath, and were alive in the flesh. Which is to say, they received God's gift of Eternal Life, the Spirit of Christ/God, and therefore " shall never die", even though their physical body dies. John 11:26. Romans 8:8-9.

So the question remains, how shall that which was once living mortal flesh, but has been dead for hundreds of years, be resurrected/raised into a new body of immortality. Only Jesus knows! We do not know of anyone else who has done so!

If a physical body has not become naturally mumified or fossilized, it has been shown that after approximately 100-300 years, there is nothing left of physical flesh or bone in a grave.
What happens to the human body after 100 years inside a coffin

Now, since Lazarus was in the grave until he began to stink, according to the above referenced site, it takes only 2-4 days (48-96 hours) for that to take place, for when the body begins to totally break down.

Since that is the case, then one can clearly understand that there isn't going to be anything to resurrect of a believer in Christ, who was once mortal and alive in, let's say in the year of 100AD.

Having said that, it is apparent that something else is the identifier of us to God, as to who we were before death takes place. Though thousands upon thousands have called it to be a/the "soul" or a/the "spirit" in man, no one as of yet has successfully described the truth of it.

However, what I propose is something else, that proves from scripture, and works with our detailed medical understanding of today, and not the very limited knowledge that Moses applied in the book of Genesis, through the words: "The breath of life". But, let me say this, Moses was NOT far off in his description, but rather it is we, who in our imaginary mind of fantasy, mixed with a furious blend of "religion", that has gone astray and derailed.

So here it is, point blank in our face, God speaking through Moses! But this time, let's hear the Mind of God through those words, and BY His Spirit.
Lev. 17 [ 11 ] For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
Gen. 4 [ 10 ] And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Now, there are many scriptures that I can cite, that support what I am saying, and I will get them for you, but for now this shall suffice to tweak your understanding.

Let's be real, as the scriptures reveal, one might say that God spoke enough about blood, so much so, that the Jews could've literally bathed in it.
One thing is for certain. God requires it for our atonement (covering) over the sin that is "within" us.

Clue:
Is there any doubt now, of WHY Jesus was born of a virgin, having no earthly father, except God the Father?

 

[Taken]

I understand the "condemned already." But have you seen anywhere that after Adam sinned and cursed the earth with death, was that physical death or that his spirit died and became mortal.

I'm asking because I've looked for the state of our spirit to be immortal or mortal and haven't found anything, except after salvation our spirit become immortal and taken on eternal life.

A Saved soul...IS a restored soul.
A soul, was announced...(by God, as Good). Then we find via Sin, the soul became "NOT good".
The restoration of a soul...returns the soul Back to Good.
Once Restored...it remains good, Kept Good, by the Power of God.

The spirit of man, is simply the Truth in his heart...(regardless of what his Mind is thinking or doing...good or evil).
The Natural spirit of man, was created with his Natural Body, which is procreated via a natural man's (seed/sperm fertalizing a natural woman's seed/egg).
A Natural man's spirit develops over time as he chooses things to Be his absolute Truth, regardless of what his Mind is thinking, and His Mouth is saying..."His" Truth remains in his spirit.

Jesus came Offering Several highlighted things:
* Forgiveness...for having corrupted their soul, and forgiveness for having had Unbelief.
* Restoration and Saving of ones Soul.
* circumcision of the heart, cutting off the natural Truth.
* giving of a new heart.
* giving OF a different seed...Gods Seed.
* planting Gods SEED in a mans new heart.
* baptizing the man With Gods Light/Power.
* Birthing Gods Seed, in the man's new heart, with a New Truth, Gods Truth.
* Gods Power remaining with the man to Keep the man with God Forever.
* Accepting a man's bodily crucifixion with Christ, as the man's requirement to Bodily die once.
* Giving a Saved soul and Quickened spirit, and Crucified Body.... the Body of Jesus' to occupy, until their own body be Risen in glory.

A Saved soul is already made Eternally Living.
A Quickened (born Again), spirit is already made Eternally Living.
That will Never change.

Your Body will die, and return to the Earth, unaware, knowing nothing...while your Saved soul and Quickened spirit will go to heaven, hang out with God, until the Day The Lord Raises up your body in glory and returns your restored soul and Quickened spirit to your Glorified body...and put you (wholly, and holy, body, soul, spirit)...on a new restored Earth, whereby, the new Heaven (which IS the Kingdom of God) and the new Earth shall be governed by the One Lord God Almighty.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[bbyrd009]

bbyrd009, you are still THOROUGHLY CONFUSED about spiritual matters, the reason being that you try to deliberately distort the truth.

ha see so there is condemnation in those who are in Christ after all, eh :)
sorry, i cant do too much with ambiguous, generalized condemnation, pEnoch...
yes, maybe you are right,
but for a lover of factoids you sure arent being very specific?

 

[bbyrd009]

Ah, I almost mentioned the blood and water from his side but thought my post was already too long.

When Jesus lived on the earth, spiritually he was both male and female the way the original Man, h'adam, was. Remember Eve was taken from the side of the man? (It's a myth she was formed from a rib.) Jesus was divided too: The female half came from his side to form the Bride of Christ or the church while the male half returned to Heaven as a "male." The female half then had other children.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I think people are mistaken then if they believe they are "connected" to the Body of Christ by being directly connected to the Head. I became connected to the Body of Christ by having an attachment to other humans who were already members of the Body.

i would agree here, and imo we should contemplate ourselves as Adam and Eve, thinking and emotions, but ive never heard anyone else on this :)

 

[bbyrd009]

Well we certainly have the organized or unorganized churches today in the thousands which according to them are rooted in the Bible yet they disagree sharply on things which may be important. How can that be?

imo they disagree on the irrelevant, and they all agree on the most important part, DMA?

 

[bbyrd009]

Accusing me of trolling is characteristic of the hatred that Jesus said all believers would experience from the world.

hopefully you see that when you claim this rather than the other you are maybe not responding as a wise man would?

 

[Taken]

I found it impossible to stay a Catholic ...
I then found it impossible to stay a Pentecostal ...took me a further 5 years to join the SDA Church
Not surprised I'm beginning to hear those same rumors here... Been there done that.

Backlit- surely you have discovered whatever an individual JOINS and announces- anyone not JOINED in the same...HAS their lists of criticisms of Why they are not Joined.

Personally, in secular life I don't like Joining, clubs, leagues, advocacies, blah, blah. Even joining this forum was a big deal, but this forum came with no requirement to actually participate.

As far as Regarding "Spiritual joining"...I have Only Joined One Church and never left...
which is exclusively Christ Jesus' Church.

All the man made churches; with their Titles, Names, Rules, Acronyms, Catchy words, Open and Closed Timeframes/Doors, Fashions, Gossip, Making deals, Entertainment, yelling Preachers, monotone Preachers, People hooting, hollering, running around, or parading/ mimicking like robots, are an utterly exhausting, unpleasant, turn off to me.

Jesus' Church, for me IS so much more Informative, Pleasant and Rewarding.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Brakelite]

Backlit- surely you have discovered whatever an individual JOINS and announces- anyone not JOINED in the same...HAS their lists of criticisms of Why they are not Joined.

Sure. And who would deny them that right.

Personally, in secular life I don't like Joining, clubs, leagues, advocacies, blah, blah. Even joining this forum was a big deal, but this forum came with no requirement to actually participate.

Yet those clubs and organisations had a purpose, and that purpose was better accomplished through organised effort. For example the Surf life saving club I was a member of for many years.

All the man made churches; with their Titles, Names, Rules, Acronyms, Catchy words, Open and Closed Timeframes/Doors, Fashions, Gossip, Making deals, Entertainment, yelling Preachers, monotone Preachers, People hooting, hollering, running around, or parading/ mimicking like robots, are an utterly exhausting, unpleasant, turn off to me.

Me to.

Jesus' Church, for me IS so much more Informative, Pleasant and Rewarding.

Absolutely.

 

[Earburner]

I found it impossible to stay a Catholic after learning that Jesus actually lives and wants to be our friend. Relationship trumped ritualism.
I then found it impossible to stay a Pentecostal after learning of the Sabbath. The Sabbath led me to other revelations equally astonishing. Astonishingbecause after 45 years a Christian, I had never heard of these alternate perspectives which made just so much more sense. Yet it took me a further 5 years to join the SDA Church because
A. I didn't know enough about them and didn't trust them and
B. Heard rumors they were evil occult weird people who sacrificed children on Sabbath among other things.

Not surprised I'm beginning to hear those same rumors here... Been there done that.

As of 30 years ago, I am happy to tell you that I am an X-SDA, never going back!
However, that is not to say that they don't have a number of things more correct than the other churches, of which also those churches have understandings, that the SDA don't focus on, or simply don't know!
Hence, what God said to me about that:
"No one single church has all of His truth, but all of the churches have some of His truth."- Earburner.

Quite literally I came to repentance towards God, through faith in Jesus, and became born again of His Holy Spirit, through a dream about 2 Timothy 4:1-6.
This was shocking to me, because I had NO knowledge about the Bible, or what 2 Timothy was, or if it was in the Bible.
From that point I began to attend a Methodist church Bible study and services.
From there, I joined a Baptist church. After about 10 years of all of that, I began attending the SDA through a "Rev. Seminar", and thought for sure this was it.
But, as faithful as God is, in my own rigoris personal Bible studies, I was discovering that I was still allowing myself to be duped and misled by "Religion". It was then that God delivered into freedom of His Peace, that I had with Him but wasn't knowing!!
It was then that i finally agreed with God, that through faith in the Blood of Jesus and His Sacrifice, I am made to be perfect and holy, but only in the eyes of God.

His Blood is our Atonement (covering), whereby God the Father does not see our sin, but rather sees only Jesus in us. Jesus within us covers us. Therefore, while in my flesh in this world, through Jesus, I am
sin-less before the Father, but of myself that I can see, as well as others, I am NOT
sin-free!
However, on the day of His return, and my redemption, I will then be forever be sin-free. Yes!! Its all by faith IN HIS GRACE! :)

God did not create us, and then through faith, make us to be NEW creatures (creation), so that we can have callouses on our knees!
Do you belive in his Sacrifice for YOU?? Then now start to TRUST Him!
That IS THE faith that He is looking for.

So, since at 25 I was born again, and now I am 70, I can truthfully say that in the past 25-30 years, they have been utter joy and peace in Him. Him within me and me within Him!
And now, though I started out in a Methodist church, God has brought me back to that denomination, and has given me the wonderful honor and priviledge through Him, as the President of The United Methodist Men, in three churches, whereby I can teach and preach His gospel message of God's Grace and Salvation through His Son to others!
Praise His Holy Name!
Earburner

 

[BarneyFife]

imo they disagree on the irrelevant, and they all agree on the most important part, DMA?

Ah, but then we are left to argue about what is/are the most important part(s), no?

 

[bbyrd009]

Ah, but then we are left to argue about what is/are the most important part(s), no?

well, what do they all agree on? If not Death, More Abundantly i mean

 

[bbyrd009]

His Blood is our Atonement (covering), whereby God the Father does not see our sin

Yah did not see your sin anyway, and Yah is not even our judge, as Scripture makes plain. I mean dont get me wrong, congrats, you have gotten all the way to Esau, and you can die believing that Jesus died for your sins if you like, and keep singing When We All Get to Heaven too :)
and best of luck in your quest for Death, More Abundantly ok, honest

under the law almost everything requires blood

 

[Earburner]

A Saved soul...IS a restored soul.
A soul, was announced...(by God, as Good). Then we find via Sin, the soul became "NOT good".
The restoration of a soul...returns the soul Back to Good.
Once Restored...it remains good, Kept Good, by the Power of God.

The spirit of man, is simply the Truth in his heart...(regardless of what his Mind is thinking or doing...good or evil).
The Natural spirit of man, was created with his Natural Body, which is procreated via a natural man's (seed/sperm fertalizing a natural woman's seed/egg).
A Natural man's spirit develops over time as he chooses things to Be his absolute Truth, regardless of what his Mind is thinking, and His Mouth is saying..."His" Truth remains in his spirit.

Jesus came Offering Several highlighted things:
* Forgiveness...for having corrupted their soul, and forgiveness for having had Unbelief.
* Restoration and Saving of ones Soul.
* circumcision of the heart, cutting off the natural Truth.
* giving of a new heart.
* giving OF a different seed...Gods Seed.
* planting Gods SEED in a mans new heart.
* baptizing the man With Gods Light/Power.
* Birthing Gods Seed, in the man's new heart, with a New Truth, Gods Truth.
* Gods Power remaining with the man to Keep the man with God Forever.
* Accepting a man's bodily crucifixion with Christ, as the man's requirement to Bodily die once.
* Giving a Saved soul and Quickened spirit, and Crucified Body.... the Body of Jesus' to occupy, until their own body be Risen in glory.

A Saved soul is already made Eternally Living.
A Quickened (born Again), spirit is already made Eternally Living.
That will Never change.

Your Body will die, and return to the Earth, unaware, knowing nothing...while your Saved soul and Quickened spirit will go to heaven, hang out with God, until the Day The Lord Raises up your body in glory and returns your restored soul and Quickened spirit to your Glorified body...and put you (wholly, and holy, body, soul, spirit)...on a new restored Earth, whereby, the new Heaven (which IS the Kingdom of God) and the new Earth shall be governed by the One Lord God Almighty.

Glory to God,
Taken

And so, the question remains still for you and others, what is "soul", and how did, as you believe, man get/receive one?
So say you: "by the breath of life"?
No!! That is how MAN BECAME a living soul. He didn't get one!

So now, back to the question: what is "the breath of life" ?
Years and years of ignorance by "religion" says its the Spirit of God! But God knows how wrong that is!
However and unfortunately, they of Religion have pumped that lie into us for thousands of years, so that barely any should escape?
Nope! Its NOT what "they" say!
Its oxygenated air! And that is all it is, and ever will be!

 

[bbyrd009]

keep saying that, too; doesnt make it true, sorry
no, the breath of life is surely not oxygen, as there are anaerobic living things, right

so no offense here ok, but you are just going to compound confusion by speaking as if you know. Which i guess you already know that, you just dont care? The maintenance of your ego is more important than truth?

Man became a soul amen tho

 

[Earburner]

Yah did not see your sin anyway, and Yah is not even our judge, as Scripture makes plain. I mean dont get me wrong, congrats, you have gotten all the way to Esau, and you can die believing that Jesus died for your sins if you like, and keep singing When We All Get to Heaven too :)
and best of luck in your quest for Death, More Abundantly ok, honest

You sound more Jewish everyday!
If you are Jewish, then your Messiah Jesus has been looking for you!
So, stop being stubborn about Him, and understand that Jesus is the "son of man" and ALSO the "Son of God", made to be flesh as the Lamb OF God, being God's Sacrifice for us, for reconcilliation between us and God the Father.

 

[bbyrd009]

You sound more Jewish everyday!
If you are Jewish, then your Messiah Jesus has been looking for you!
So, stop being stubborn about Him, and understand that Jesus is the "son of man" and ALSO the "Son of God", made to be flesh as the Lamb OF God, being God's Sacrifice for us, for reconcilliation between us and God the Father.

under the law almost everything requires blood, yes, so call me "Jewish" if you like, play "nevermind that what about this" to your heart's content, but understand that you dont know what you are talking about ok, you are a hegelian in the throes of dunning-kruger, just like anyone else who says they know anything. Your ego is your god. Now imo go enjoy your blood, and i sincerely hope your bargain with the grave works out for you too

ps, may i suggest a cardinal for your avatar :)

 

[bbyrd009]

I found it impossible to stay a Catholic after learning that Jesus actually lives and wants to be our friend. Relationship trumped ritualism.
I then found it impossible to stay a Pentecostal after learning of the Sabbath. The Sabbath led me to other revelations equally astonishing. Astonishingbecause after 45 years a Christian, I had never heard of these alternate perspectives which made just so much more sense. Yet it took me a further 5 years to join the SDA Church because
A. I didn't know enough about them and didn't trust them and
B. Heard rumors they were evil occult weird people who sacrificed children on Sabbath among other things.

Not surprised I'm beginning to hear those same rumors here... Been there done that.

i liked the sdas myself, but the legalism, yikes

 

[bbyrd009]

One thing is for certain.

lol

God requires it for our atonement (covering) over the sin that is "within" us.

under the law almost everything requires blood, yes, but you cannot Quote what you have just said, sorry; it is you that requires blood, not Yah

so see how you could not be more wrong, yet you presume to teach!

well is it written imo,
He who says he knows anything, doesn't