Eat my flesh, drink my blood, discerning the body and blood of Christ.

[Stewardofthemystery]

Paul didn't take it as a parable/similitude: The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

So why do you?

2 Peter 3:15-16

King James Version

​

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

No, John 3 is not a parable

give me a break.

Matthew 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

 

[Marymog]

2 Peter 3:15-16​

​

King James Version​

​

​

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Huh?

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, He also Said it was the food which Endure to eternal life. And was different than physical food. Which we can eat all we want, we will still die.

However. I want to focus on the words “live forever” and keep this point

Yes, But did Jesus at any time at the last supper say if you eat this, you will live forever? Or did he on the other hand, Say do this OFTEN “In remembrance of me” as the purpose of eating this “supper”?

This is Mark 14:22
And as they were eating, he took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to them, and said, “Take; this is my body.” ...

Take what? Jesus offered the bread. He had said that THIS IS MY BODY....
Luke 22:19

NOW Jesus is saying TAKE IT, THIS IS MY BODY...they were eating - literally.

Or, Jesus told them that. So those who did nto believe would walk way, because your right, they could accept it.. As jesus said, they did not believe, they were there for a handout. Just like Jesus said, You did not come to hear me, you came to get fed.

Exactly WHAT was difficult to believe?

Peter understood there

Where can we go. YOU HAVE the WORDS OF ETERNAL LIFE.

remember, You admitted Jesus was the bread from heaven, that gives life to the world.

I don't understand what you're saying here.
Peter said Jesus has the words of life.
Are you saying the bread is the word of life?
Or the word is the bread of life?

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 Butthere are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

That this food which endures forever. This bread from heaven, this flesh and blood. Does it not all represent the words which come from the spirit?

Is it not the same message he has said for the last 3 chapters.

whoever believes (the words) are not condemned
whoever does not believe is condemned already?

I agree....John 6:63 is problematic for me.
Jesus SEEMS to be switching from literal to metaphorical.
John 6:52-58 also presents its problems.
A textual scholar would be good to have at hand...

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Matthew 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

not sure how this proves your point?

John 3 is Jesus explaining to nicodemus how one is born again and what it is.

It is not a parable. it was not written to hide the truth from Nicodemus or anyone else. It was written so everyone could understand.. Sadly. Just like in John 6. Many do not and will not believe, so they were never understand.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This is Mark 14:22
And as they were eating, he took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to them, and said, “Take; this is my body.” ...

Take what? Jesus offered the bread. He had said that THIS IS MY BODY....
Luke 22:19

NOW Jesus is saying TAKE IT, THIS IS MY BODY...they were eating - literally.

ok. Your doing what I was hoping you would not do.

Your focused on a word.

I wanted you to focus on what those who partake of that word would receive.

Yes, In both cases he said, My Body (although in John 6, Her did nto say THIS is my body)

But the purpose behind taking the body in both cases is not the same

In John 6. it is to recieve things (eternal life, never hungering, never thirsting, the promise you would live forever and never die. and the assurance you will be raised on the last day. This is given to EVERYONE who partakes of this food

In the last supper. Jesus said do this for a different reason. Take eat, do this in remembrance of me. No promise of anything for anyone who takes it.

Second, In john 6, he said this food is different than another food God gave, they ate that food daily. yet they had to continue to eat it, because if not they would die.

The food jesus came to give, they could eat and not die.. ie, they did not have to keep taking it.

Again, the food at the last supper. he said take often.. why? Because it dies. it does nto sustain forever. it is required (God really wants us to not forget where we came from.. that's why we do it.. just like Israel ate the passover meal. to rem,ember when God rescued them.. But the food itself did nto rescue them, it represented the God who rescued them

Exactly WHAT was difficult to believe?

That he came to save them. Because they did nto think they needed saved.. They thought because they were jews, they already were saved. and already Gods people. and they came to see the miracle. and to be fed. physically. Not spiritually

I don't understand what you're saying here.
Peter said Jesus has the words of life.
Are you saying the bread is the word of life?
Or the word is the bread of life?

I am saying this

1. Jesus said eat the food which endures to eternal life, which he will give you, which you can eat and not die
2. Jesus called this food the bread of life. when he would give them, which they could eat and not die
3. Jesus said the bread came down from heaven, and if they ate it they would nto die
4. Jesus said this food, this bread, was his flesh, which he would give to give life to the world.
5. Jesus said the thing that gives life is the spirit. and the spirit (this bread from heaven) which gives life is the words that Jesus spoke.

Scripture says man shall not live by bread alone but by every word which proceeds from the mouth of God. thats the living bread. and we better gnaw and chew on it. Make sure we understand it. Don;t just taste it, because we may not understand it. and the cost would be our lives.

I agree....John 6:63 is problematic for me.
Jesus SEEMS to be switching from literal to metaphorical.
John 6:52-58 also presents its problems.
A textual scholar would be good to have at hand...

6: 52 is the point.. Jesus was pushing them, He knew they did not believe So he spoke in a way he knew would push them away, knowing they would nt understand

But again, I think peter answers the question.

when Jesus asked them if they wanted to leave too. Jesus response was this, Where are we to go. YOU HAVE THE WORDS (the bread) of ETERNAL LIFE.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

It was written so everyone could understand.. Sadly. Just like in John 6. Many do not and will not believe, so they were never understand.

Not everyone was meant to understand, only God’s elect.

Isaiah 29:14
Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.


Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Luke 10:21
In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

 

[RedFan]

Not everyone was meant to understand, only God’s elect.

Isaiah 29:14
Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.


Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Luke 10:21
In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

What was the point of Jesus addressing his audience in parables that some are intended to understand and some not? Why be cryptic?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Not everyone was meant to understand, only God’s elect.

Isaiah 29:14
Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.


Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Luke 10:21
In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

If you can not understand you can not believe. And you can not come to God

People have no excuse because they can u sweat and it is just in unbelief they hide the truth (Roman’s 1)

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

What was the point of Jesus addressing his audience in parables that some are intended to understand and some not? Why be cryptic?

Matthew 13:10-17

King James Version

​

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

If you can not understand you can not believe. And you can not come to God

People have no excuse because they can u sweat and it is just in unbelief they hide the truth (Roman’s 1)

You have to be given ears to hear and eyes to see in order to understand the words of God.

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

John 3:27
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven

 

[VictoryinJesus]

That is why it is important to seek understanding in God’s words from God alone by faith. The things of the Spirit of God no man knows, but only God; and those to whom God reveals these mysteries to by His Spirit.

I can say God has revealed these things to me by His Spirit, but how is anyone else able to prove it to be of God or not if they themselves do not have the Spirit of God?

So don’t take mens words for it, take God’s Word for it, if so be you have the Spirit of God.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

With all due respect my favorite interaction with you on the board was on your topic : Revelation 3:12 Him that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

I was shocked when you posted on the above because what you shared was insightful. It also helped me because I’d seen it from a similar perspective, so reading your perspective helped in having someone I could talk to that wouldn’t criticize but instead help me in considering “and I will write upon him my new name.”

But then reading your end times topics …I wanted so bad to post but where in one thread you’d welcome my input or sharing…in another you would not welcome it. If that makes sense. That is what I encounter often …when a perspective is set in stone you might as well not share for it won’t be received or considered. Why share this with you? Because in the very least I was pointing out that from my perspective you may have insight on certain topics (which is a blessing) but then maybe need to recheck your perspective on other topics. In the very least (I’m including myself here) that we fail in other topics should at the very least or maybe the most…help us come at the topics we have been given insight to and be patient and understanding with those who that topic it’s written in stone to where they don’t desire to receive or consider it. At least we should see we still do the same in other areas. Is it called “stonewalling” that seems like a good word for our treasured perspectives written in stone where no one can mention “you might want to reconsider it”. This all leaves me confused. I can see the Spiritual application…and I get frustrated too. I heard on the radio yesterday we are to feed the hungry and take in the fatherless and help them. I don’t hear that as literal but to me the spiritual doesn’t remove caring but redefines who are the hungry, the poor, and the fatherless. But that isn’t the definition promoted on the radio. But I can’t stress how confusing it is to see parts Spiritual and then others like the debated end times… not. Money is a big one. It’s nearly impossible to present wealth is not cash. Graces Grace above mentioned receiving special insight…to me it’s receiving glimpses of the Heart of God which I’ve been told my entire life was the heart that He is not …refused by a tyrant, condemned by the judge, hated by the chauvinist.

So to me receiving truth about God’s Heart is not something ugly or special treatment but “be you transformed (day by day) by the renewing of your Mind.” Not a simple task when you’ve been brainwashed (conformed) by the heart against Him for decades. But not impossible with God. By now we should know God is not arrogant or prideful or does not things for his own profit but for ours. It Blows my mind. I know no other that does things not for His own profit but for our profit.

If I would have shared anything with you on end times …and it may seem insignificant but it’s not to me …it would be this tucked in Psalms 90, the prayer of Moses: teach us to number our days, that we may present to You a Heart of Wisdom. (Not the wisdom that the world gives unto us, but the Wisdom which is from above, Given of God which is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. James 3:17

To me that is significant “teach us the numbers of our days” “so we can present to You a Heart of Wisdom” with Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that has understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.(which is also mentioned in Psalm 90.)

Why bring that up in this topic…because to me it’s all connected, even what is being discussed here concerning “You must eat of My flesh and drink of My blood.” Isn’t this topic on who eats of that which comes from above and who eats of that which comes from man? I think …and I could be wrong…we all Hope to eat of that which comes from above, that which is Given of God. It there is any thing that helps where “these things are given in parables” is refused. it is this…that which comes down from above and given of God (which Christ said He was the Wisdom given from above, that bread) it’s that He clearly says it’s not the wisdom given and passed down from men…but that which comes down from above, His Spirit. First pure…, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits(which fruits are by Christ so that you be not barren or unfruitful), without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

 

[GodsGrace]

ok. Your doing what I was hoping you would not do.

Your focused on a word.

I wanted you to focus on what those who partake of that word would receive.

But, yes, Jesus said this everywhere else - that's why this sounds different.

Yes, In both cases he said, My Body (although in John 6, Her did nto say THIS is my body)

But the purpose behind taking the body in both cases is not the same

What's the difference?

In John 6. it is to recieve things (eternal life, never hungering, never thirsting, the promise you would live forever and never die. and the assurance you will be raised on the last day. This is given to EVERYONE who partakes of this food

In the last supper. Jesus said do this for a different reason. Take eat, do this in remembrance of me. No promise of anything for anyone who takes it.

Oh. I see. He's making some kind of a ceremony to remember Him by??
Did I ever consider this?
Can't remember!

Second, In john 6, he said this food is different than another food God gave, they ate that food daily. yet they had to continue to eat it, because if not they would die.

The food jesus came to give, they could eat and not die.. ie, they did not have to keep taking it.

Good point...

Again, the food at the last supper. he said take often.. why? Because it dies. it does nto sustain forever. it is required (God really wants us to not forget where we came from.. that's why we do it.. just like Israel ate the passover meal. to rem,ember when God rescued them.. But the food itself did nto rescue them, it represented the God who rescued them

Good point.
But you say the food at the Last Supper dies....
It does not sustain forever....
Doesn't the word of God sustain forever?
(is this a conflict in your reasoning?)

That he came to save them. Because they did nto think they needed saved.. They thought because they were jews, they already were saved. and already Gods people. and they came to see the miracle. and to be fed. physically. Not spiritually

I don't know EG.
It sounds like they said that it was a hard saying at the point that Jesus said they had to eat his flesh...

I am saying this

1. Jesus said eat the food which endures to eternal life, which he will give you, which you can eat and not die
2. Jesus called this food the bread of life. when he would give them, which they could eat and not die
3. Jesus said the bread came down from heaven, and if they ate it they would nto die
4. Jesus said this food, this bread, was his flesh, which he would give to give life to the world.
5. Jesus said the thing that gives life is the spirit. and the spirit (this bread from heaven) which gives life is the words that Jesus spoke.

Must spend some more time on the later verses about the spirit.

Scripture says man shall not live by bread alone but by every word which proceeds from the mouth of God. thats the living bread. and we better gnaw and chew on it. Make sure we understand it. Don;t just taste it, because we may not understand it. and the cost would be our lives.

Good point.

6: 52 is the point.. Jesus was pushing them, He knew they did not believe So he spoke in a way he knew would push them away, knowing they would nt understand

But again, I think peter answers the question.

when Jesus asked them if they wanted to leave too. Jesus response was this, Where are we to go. YOU HAVE THE WORDS (the bread) of ETERNAL LIFE.

Thanks EG.
I know you spent time on this.
I really appreciate it.
Back to the drawing board.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Why bring that up in this topic…because to me it’s all connected, even what is being discussed here concerning “You must eat of My flesh and drink of My blood.” Isn’t this topic on who eats of that which comes from above and who eats of that which comes from man? I think …and I could be wrong…we all Hope to eat of that which comes from above, that which is Given of God. It there is any thing that helps where “these things are given in parables” is refused. it is this…that which comes down from above and given of God (which Christ said He was the Wisdom given from above, that bread) it’s that He clearly says it’s not the wisdom given and passed down from men…but that which comes down from above, His Spirit. First pure…, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits(which fruits are by Christ so that you be not barren or unfruitful), without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

It sounds like you are on the right track and you are sincere in your search for the Truth in Christ. Christ is that Wisdom that comes down from above, as God’s Word is the Wisdom by which God created all things.

When you understand there is no higher learning than that which comes down from above, then you will seek understanding from God alone and not from men. God’s Spirit will guide you into all Truth, whereas carnally minded men can lead you astray.

God’s Living Word dwells in all His anointed saints by the Holy Spirit, these are the Living waters that comes forth out of their bellies.

John 7:38
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

 

[RedFan]

Matthew 13:10-17​

​

King James Version​

​

​

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

The simpler way to do it would have been to just address those to whom it is given to know!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

But, yes, Jesus said this everywhere else - that's why this sounds different.


What's the difference?

It is just a difference.

Oh. I see. He's making some kind of a ceremony to remember Him by??
Did I ever consider this?
Can't remember!

I believe this is what the Passover meal was. A ceremony, a tradition, or a command to be followed, Interesting also is to note that it was called the feast of unleavened bread. so they broke bread, and ate the flesh of the Lamb (the passover lamb) and drank the cup of wine. It was also done, as we see Paul who had to correct some people as they were having a meal and some were getting fed and even some drunk) . It looked nothing like the ceremonies we see at our churches today

1 cor11: 20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper. 21 For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame [c]those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you.

Good point...

Thank you

Good point.
But you say the food at the Last Supper dies....
It does not sustain forever....
Doesn't the word of God sustain forever?
(is this a conflict in your reasoning?)

Ah, I see what your saying.

But the Word is the thing which gives life. So this reasoning would fit perfectly in John 6.

But the bread and cup, This is not the word. It is a physical item we are eating, while remembering what Christ gave for us, Like in the passover, they were remembering the passover lamb, whose blood saved them from slavery of egypt.

I don't know EG.
It sounds like they said that it was a hard saying at the point that Jesus said they had to eat his flesh...

Because they thought "wrongly" he was speaking of his literal flesh

Must spend some more time on the later verses about the spirit.


Good point.


Thanks EG.
I know you spent time on this.
I really appreciate it.
Back to the drawing board.

Thank you..

Sometimes it takes awhile had to learn that that hard way

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

I believe this is what the Passover meal was. A ceremony, a tradition, or a command to be followed, Interesting also is to note that it was called the feast of unleavened bread. so they broke bread, and ate the flesh of the Lamb (the passover lamb) and drank the cup of wine.

Types and shadows….

1 Corinthians 5

King James Version

​

5 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.”

The natural law was just a type/ shadow of the spiritual law.

Matthew 16:12
Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

 

[Johann]

NOW Jesus is saying TAKE IT, THIS IS MY BODY...they were eating - literally.

You believe in the Eucharist? In an absolutist sense?

Early Church Fathers is not my source of Authority.

 

[GodsGrace]

You believe in the Eucharist? In an absolutist sense?

Early Church Fathers is not my source of Authority.

Can't watch a video that lasts 3 hours.
If you could condense....

 

[Johann]

Can't watch a video that lasts 3 hours.
If you could condense....

I am very tired @GodsGrace.
Shalom
J.