Earning Knowledge of God / Eternal Life

[marks]

Yeah.
But that's not what we were discussing.

Have a joyous Christmas marks.
Maybe see you some time in the future....
GG

It seems to me I responded directly to what I quoted from you.

Regardless, your participation is of course up to you.

Much love!

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace Don't ask me to quote my favorite ECFs, bc i don't read much, bc every time I read them in the past, most of the time, it was basically reiterating the Bible (except when it wasn't--weaving ideas they, by my reckoning, seemed to have come up with on their own).
"Well, why not just read the Bible then?" I asked myself--and so I did and do.

My favorite saints are Thomas a Kempis and Therese de Lisieux, though I don't spend much time reading nowadays. That was a while back.
Also Saint Gabriel of Georgia and Saint Paisios (EO Church).

I'm not talking about saints.

I'm talking about the Early Church Fathers,,,which you state you do not trust.

Let me ask you this GP:
Who do you think compiled the NT??

Reply: The Early Church Fathers

AND
I'm talking about the ones that come EVEN EARLIER!
The ones that were taught by the Apostles themselves.

I won't be here if you respond...
Have a joyous Christmas!

 

[GodsGrace]

You may be mistaken on this point. I have no wish to leave of discussion of a key verse until we can reach agreement over what it says.

That doesn't mean I'm going to skip anything, only, we need to have a proper foundation.

When I'm discussing what I believe to be a plainly stated passages, and someone asserts that it actually means something different, I want to drill into that to see if it is so.

No, make no mistake, we need ALL the Scriptures if we are to know truth! But I'm not about to just say, OK, maybe it means this maybe it means that, let's just move on. No, it's too important. So I want to stick with a verse until we reach that agreement on that verse, and then move on the next, and do the same thing.


We should stick to it until we agree on truth, if at all possible.

I'm open to any range of discussion, with one exception, and that's sweeping things under the rug.

Much love!

We're brothers (and sister!) in Christ marks....
even if we disagree.
I'm leaving for a while and if I come back...
we can always pick up where we left off.
Just too tired of the debating....
I must be getting old!!
God bless you.

 

[marks]

Motives and intentions are basically synonymous--his motive is what is driving him, and his intentions concern the outcome of his motives and work toward those ends.

Yep.

To show the freedom we have in Christ, which releases us from the clutches of sin, as we come to believe Jesus really does work in us to do works of righteousness, when we stop trying to do our own working for salvation.

We are to work out what He works into us. So what happens when we're trying to work out in our lives something that God is NOT working into us? What then?

Stagnation, immaturity, frustration, awareness of our wretched state, these all result.

The simple truth is that our reconciliation to God is not in ourselves, it's in Jesus Christ,

Much love!

 

[marks]

We're brothers (and sister!) in Christ marks....
even if we disagree.
I'm leaving for a while and if I come back...
we can always pick up where we left off.
Just too tired of the debating....
I must be getting old!!
God bless you.

It's always been up to you. Please pray over 1 John 3:1-3. This is how we live.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

Yep.

To show the freedom we have in Christ, which releases us from the clutches of sin, as we come to believe Jesus really does work in us to do works of righteousness, when we stop trying to do our own working for salvation.

We are to work out what He works into us. So what happens when we're trying to work out in our lives something that God is NOT working into us? What then?

Stagnation, immaturity, frustration, awareness of our wretched state, these all result.

The simple truth is that our reconciliation to God is not in ourselves, it's in Jesus Christ,

Much love!

There is real truth, real power, in this belief--faih that overcomes. It's open season on people who don't trust Christ--to what ever extent they're not trusting Christ.

 

[GracePeace]

.

I'm not talking about saints.

I'm talking about the Early Church Fathers,,,which you state you do not trust.

Let me ask you this GP:
Who do you think compiled the NT??

Reply: The Early Church Fathers

AND
I'm talking about the ones that come EVEN EARLIER!
The ones that were taught by the Apostles themselves.

I won't be here if you respond...
Have a joyous Christmas!

Yup, people in Church are capable of both good and bad. They're not flawless. I believe I already answered this before. You are welcome to that answer.

 

[Behold]

The Bereans were praised for NOT listening to no less than the Apostle Paul, but TESTING his claims... by looking at Scripture,

Yes, they heard Paul's teaching, received it with the right mind and heart...... happily, .. .read some OT, and then realized that Paul was sharing Truth.

Paul said this to the body of Christ.

"be a follower of me, as i follow Christ".. and when a believer does that, they are going to receive from God, a lot of revelation, and when they wont do that, they will receive nothing they need.

Sure they can buy libraries filled with scholarship theology.. and endlessly search the web.......but that is not Paul's Docrtrine........unless they do what He told them to do.

Now, some people who read what Paul said..........misunderstand... as He is not saying to worship Him...>He's explaining that as He has the Church Doctrine, and as He is the perfected Christian, who "finished his course".. then HE is the example regarding how we are to serve God and Christ.
We learn from PAUL and he our NT teacher, and anyone who isn't of this understanding... is not going to give you what you need to know...Reader.

 

[GracePeace]

Here is what the Bible Itself says. This is God's input on the subject.

I hope we can all receive this.

It seems to me the main concern here is that if you tell someone that they cannot become "unsaved" after being reborn, then they won't try as hard to not sin, or something like that.

This is what the Bible says:

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Everyone that has this hope purifies himself.

That's what we're talking about, right? Whether or not we are endeavoring to purify ourselves? My contention is that if you think that after God regenerates you, that you can sin your way out of the family. (Lack of faith is simply one more sin)

We want to be pure, just like Jesus is pure. Everyone who has this hope purifies themself.

What hope? And what is hope? We have this modern idea of "hope" that is somewhat wistful, Oh I hope I can go to the river this year, whatever it may be.

Biblical hope is something different. The word translated hope means to anticipate, to have an expectation. And in the Biblical usage its an outgrowth of faith.

We trust in Jesus, we believe He is true. Jesus promised to resurrect those who believe in Him. I believe in Him, and He promised resurrection, so my hope is the resurrection. I expect to be resurrected back to life by Jesus in the age to come.

Everyone who has "this hope" purifies himself.

we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is

And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

So here's my question to you. Do you believe that when you see Jesus, that you will in fact be made to be just like Him? Or do you consider that uncertain, you'd like to see it happen, but maybe it won't?

It's exactly backwards to think that I may come short of salvation, and end up losing my rebirth, losing the Holy Spirit, losing eternal life, losing Jesus, so I'll try harder to make sure that doesn't happen.

It's in knowing that Jesus is waiting for us there at the end, and when we see Him, we will in fact be like Him. And it in this expectation that we actually go on to purify ourselves.

Why the difference? In the first case, as we take care to remain saved, we put that on ourselves, our performance, which is legalism. Pay for play. And we all know we come up short. It's a faith killer.

Romans 7:5 KJV
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Law provokes sin.

Faith, on the other hand, faith and grace, these allow us to release ourselves into Jesus' power, it in His power that we walk in righteousness.

Just to restate in simple terms, According to 1 John 3, we learn that we our certain expectation to be transformed to be like Jesus when we see Him, this is what brings us to purify ourselves.

Whether or not something else seems to make sense to you, this is the plain and clear teaching of the Bible. Not my teaching. God's teaching.

Much love!

Whether we are OSAS or NOSAS it's an important issue to emphasize. NOSAS can result in wavering on this. It's really substantive. It's not of secondary but primary importance. Trusting God.

 

[marks]

Irenaeus made a mistake.
Are you saying JESUS taught Mary was the new Eve and taught His disciples that?
I reject that--based on Scripture which proves no one but the Church could be the New Eve, and Paul draws the connection himself (2 Co 11:3).

Why would you draw me away from the Apostolic dogma in Scripture to a Johnny Come Lately? Paul said wolves would rise up from the Church itself oand devour the sheep--and that happened--so how much more is it true that well-meaning men, saints, would make mistakes in teaching (which Scripture proves they did)?

And Paul said it was going to happen right away.

Acts 20:29-30 KJV
29) For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30) Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Much love!

 

[marks]

There is real truth, real power, in this belief--faih that overcomes. It's open season on people who don't trust Christ--to what ever extent they're not trusting Christ.

Amen!

Romans 5:1-2 KJV
1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

We've been justified by faith ( I can't do it myself, I have to believe that Jesus did it for me), and we are by faith to stand in His grace ( I can't do it myself, I have to believe Jesus is doing it for me )

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

I'm not talking about saints.

I'm talking about the Early Church Fathers,,,which you state you do not trust.

You've "responded" to me on this issue without responding to me a couple of times already : isn't it true Irenaeus accidentally introduced an incorrect teaching (the one I mentioned)?

 

[Behold]

-

I'll post this as a THREAD... in the coming days.. but for now...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OSAS was not created by anyone who is teaching ""The Gospel of the Grace of God.""

Its created by people who don't understand The Gospel, or the Grace of God.

It was created, as a NT verse explains........as an argument against Paul's Gospel., 2000 yrs ago.

JUDE then says that unbelievers, Jews... came up with this demonic "FLIP" or twist.. . that causes a weird confusion.. that is now found in our time referred to as OSAS, or "License to sin"..

Here is what the Devil did..

He understands that our own nature, wants to be a part of saving ourselves... as that is how SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS works, in us.

So, what the Devil did was create this theory or concept or idea that says.. "if you teach that you have Eternal Security.. then you are saying that there is no consequence for sinning.

But all of that is just a smoke screen...its a "ball under the 3 cups" distraction... to get you to not understand something.. that Hebrews 13:9 says you must understand or a Cult Theology will trap your mind.

See, when you get all caught up in OSAS, its because you have been led away from the correct understanding of "not under the Law, but under Grace", and the Devil wants to blind you with OSAS, so that you never understand an eternal principal, regarding the "Blood Atonement".

See, its really simple.
Once Jesus becomes our sin... .then we are "made free from sin".. having become "THE Righteousness of God, in Christ"..

If you dont understand what i just showed you, then you are in a bad situation, as a believer, as that means you have God's Salvation, but you dont understand it yet... at all.

Listen,
the wonder of Salvation, is that it takes the Law off of you.. FOREVER..., so that you can't be defined by it anymore.

So, now that you are "not under the Law, but under Grace", then your deeds,= can't be defined or judged by what isn't there, anymore.

A.) There is no "dominion of the Law::: to judge you, and the Commandments are a part of the Law..... IF you are actually born again and not just water baptized and religious.

See, the Gift of Salvation, is... You are made free from sin, . .and have God's Righteousness... forever..........and the LAW can't ever again define you as a sinner.. as you are : "not under the Law but under Grace".

Now, where this is CONFUSION.. to a believer who does not understand what i just taught you. .. is when you read in 2 Corin 5:19 and Romans 4:8 that you are not ever again charged with a SIN, or with doing those deeds.......its because there is no justification for it.

Reader...., you can't be charged with law breaking, when "You are not under the Law, but under Grace".

See that?
You have to see this, or you will not understand your Salvation......at all.

So, those 2 verses say that God does not charge you with sin.......ever again.

That does not mean you are going to be perfect in your Behavior....but it means that because " You are not under the Law, but under Grace".. then GOD has nothing He can use to charge you.. because... "Christ has redeemed all the born again from the CURSE OF THE LAW"..

That "curse" is....>>The Law can define your deeds as sin, and you as a sinner.. and NOW....that is GONE>. because of The Cross of Christ.

So.....Where are you now... if you are truly born again.. and not just water baptized and religious ?

You existe here......

AA.) """where there is NO LAW.........there is no TRANSGRESSION.. .no sin""""". found.

See, its not that you are going to be perfect... but its a fact that there is no Law or Commandments that can define you as anything, ever again., as you have been eternally redefined as having become "THE Righteousness of GOD...In Christ".

That is why the NT says you are a "NEW CREATION">. "IN CHRIST", and there is no sin found there, and there is no LAW found there.


Welcome To : Salvation.

Its a "GIFT".

 

[GracePeace]

you can't be charged with law breaking, when "You are not under the Law, but under Grace".

See that?
You have to see this, or you will not understand your Salvation......at all.

Jesus charges the believers with sin in Revelation.
Paul charged the man for sleeping his father's wife, and handed him over to satan to destroy his flesh.
Paul also says the one who doesn't do what he believes is sinning and is condemned.
Jesus says if you don't forgive, the forgiveness that God had extended to you will be rescinded and you'll have to pay for your sins like any unbeliever (because the righteousness of faith, which results in forgiveness (Ro 4:6-8), can be taken back, so that the one who believed because never-have-believed--blotted out).

Therefore, what ever kernel of truth you're benefiting from by by holding to your argument cannot help me--when you wrap the truth in this kind of packaging, it is not beneficial. I'd like to trust and benefit from the kernel of truth you're sharing.

 

[Behold]

Jesus charges the believers with sin in Revelation.

Look at this carefully..

If you have sin, then Jesus has not paid for it, so, this person is not a Christian.

Notice..

"God hath made JESUS.. to be SIN...for us"..

So, that has happened or the person still has their sin, and if they do. then they are not a Christian.

Notice.

There is no sin found in Heaven.
There is no sin found in God
There is no sin found in Christ.

1.) All Christians are "seated in heavenly places IN Christ", and there is no sin found in Heaven.

2.) All Christians are "ONE with God" and there is no sin found there

3.) All Christians are "IN CHRIST" and there is no sin found there.

So if you have sin, you are not "one with God".. you are not "IN Christ" and you are "not seated in heavenly places".

= Not a Christian... Not born again.....= Religious but lost.

Paul charged the man for sleeping his father's wife, and handed him over to satan to destroy his flesh.

Paul never told that young man to confess his sin.
Read it.

Paul wrote 13 Epistles and never in any of them did Paul ever confess a sin.
NOT ONE.
Read the Epistles., and burn ALL the CULT commentaries that LIE to you.

Paul also says the one who doesn't do what he believes is sinning and is condemned.

That is putting yourself under the Law.. so are judging yourself according to the Law or Commandments, because you dont understand that = "you are not under the law, but under Grace" if you are born again.
If you are just water baptized and religious, then you're not born again ,,, so in that case this person is under the law.= a sinner.

Jesus says if you don't forgive, the forgiveness that God had extended to you will be rescinded

Jesus told the Jews under the OT Covenant, that = "if you dont forgive, neither will your Father forgive you".

Whereas in the NT........the NEW Covenant, ..Paul says.. Because you ARE = forgiven, you are to forgive"..

See that change?
Its a complete change from the OT and Old covenant, regarding "forgiving"

 

[GracePeace]

Look at this carefully..

If you have sin, then Jesus has not paid for it, so, this person is not a Christian.

Notice..

"God hath made JESUS.. to be SIN...for us"..

So, that has happened or the person still has their sin, and if they do. then they are not a Christian.

Notice.

There is no sin found in Heaven.
There is no sin found in God
There is no sin found in Christ.

1.) All Christians are "seated in heavenly places IN Christ", and there is no sin found in Heaven.

2.) All Christians are "ONE with God" and there is no sin found there

3.) All Christians are "IN CHRIST" and there is no sin found there.

So if you have sin, you are not "one with God".. you are not "IN Christ" and you are "not seated in heavenly places".

= Not a Christian... Not born again.....= Religious but lost.

No, actually it demonstrates that not all "true believers" continually abide in Him, which is my view.

Paul never told that young man to confess his sin.
Read it.

Yeah he hoped the harsh penalty would wake him up to repentance so his spirit might be saved. This proves my view.

Paul wrote 13 Epistles and never in any of them did Paul ever confess a sin.
NOT ONE.
Read the Epistles., and burn ALL the CULT commentaries that LIE to you.

You're wrong. He said his conscience was clear, and he wasn't aware that he was sinning at all, but that didn't itself excuse him, bc he would be judged by God--bc he knows there is a category of sin (in Torah) where you are completely unaware you're doing it.

That is putting yourself under the Law..

Nope, thats being under grace.
Paul taught it to the Roman Church as a rule to live by, so it's grace.

Jesus told the Jews under the OT Covenant, that = "if you dont forgive, neither will your Father forgive you".
Whereas in the NT........the NEW Covenant, ..Paul says.. Because you ARE = forgiven, you are to forgive"..

See that change?
Its a complete change from the OT and Old covenant, regarding "forgiving"

In Mt 18, the unforgiving steward HAD been forgiven already, and ought therefore to have forgiven (so the parable says), but he didn't so the forgiveness was rescinded and he went to torment to pay his debts himself like any unbeliever.

Since forgiveness is by faith (Ro 4:6-8), what this demonstrates is that salvation by grace through faith can be lost--in that the forgiveness goe away, his faith went away, was "forgotten". The man is stripped of his faith, and is damned as an unbeliever.

Faith isn't a static reality. People can have it stripped.

 

[marks]

In Mt 18, the unforgiving steward HAD been forgiven already, and ought therefore to have forgiven (so the parable says), but he didn't so the forgiveness was rescinded and he went to torment to pay his debts himself like any unbeliever.

Jesus taught this to those under the Law. We need to keep teachings in context. It exactly matches with Ezekiel 18, and another chapter, I don't recall which offhand, but it makes much the same kind of statement.

If the wicked does righteousness, their wickedness won't be remembered. But if the righteous does wickedness, their righteousness wouldn't be remembered. This is all old covenant. "You do what I say, and you will be my special people."

There is not a single word in Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles' letters about forgiveness of sin being rescinded.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

Jesus taught this to those under the Law.

He told His disciples to teach it to the nations so that they would "observing all things what ever I have taught you", so it's there for us.

We need to keep teachings in context. It exactly matches with Ezekiel 18, and another chapter, I don't recall which offhand, but it makes much the same kind of statement.

If the wicked does righteousness, their wickedness won't be remembered. But if the righteous does wickedness, their righteousness wouldn't be remembered. This is all old covenant. "You do what I say, and you will be my special people."

There is not a single word in Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles' letters about forgiveness of sin being rescinded.

Much love!

1. God doesn't change. He still forgets both sin and righteousness.
The faith is counted as righteousness.
The righteousness of faith can be forgotten.
That's what Mt 18 is about. Also 25 (lazy servant).
We've discussed this at length previously.
This is what it means to be "blotted out".
I just follow the Bible.

2. Also, Paul wrote most of Romans to the Jewish believers at Rome, so he wasn't just sent to non-Jews (as if he would have a different message for Jews than he would have had for Gentiles).

3. On your reading, no, Paul never says believers can be condemned. I know that. On my reading, he does.