Earning Knowledge of God / Eternal Life

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
14,082
7,310
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
They say you left--"he said, she said."
Just a serious note...

The Orthodox church left.
Here's why:

I don't agree that Peter was the first Pope,,,,but he was the first Bishop of Rome, so If the CC wants to say he was the first Pope...OK. Not that important to me.

However, The office of Pope was eventually given to just ONE MAN, instead of 5....and so the CC DID have a Pope.

Which church has NO POPE today because they prefer to have Bishops of areas?
Right.
The Orthodox church.

But the CC STILL has Popes to this day.

So who left who??


Christ is indvisible : all members of Christ's body are part of the same Church, no matter what outward delineations.
Agreed.
And I'm happy that you capitalized Church...most don't do this.
No, my point was men are created with reason, and ought to be reasoned with, not forced against their reason and conscience. Not just me. All.
Agreed.

Also, my point was that I recognize good that was done, but it needn't result in the belief in a closed canon--I needn't take their authority too far.

Again, your analogy doesn't work bc your father had no commands, whereas the father in Scripture has commands.

This shouldn't surprise you : your attempt to distinguish meriting from earning is an acknowledgment of the very problem that I have been saying I don't have a satisfactory answer to. I'd rather admit not having an answer than have a wrong/unsatisfactory answer (eg, distinguishing meriting from earning).
'nuff of that.
I had my fun for the week at your expense.
I apologize.

"Welcome to the conversation" I guess I should say?
I've LOST the conversation!

Yeah, and in the English language, a gift isn't preceded by merit because that would be earning whereas a gift is unearned and unmerited.
I could give you a great example....but I've really had enough.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GracePeace

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
36,679
24,014
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It really is a mistake to think knowing God can be earned, though I'm not 100% certain how that "squares" with Romans 2, which says only "doers of the Law" will be justified and repaid eternal life when God judges the secrets of men's hearts by Christ (Ro 2:6-16,26,27).

I can't deny that eternal life can't be earned, but I also can't deny eternal life will be repaid only doers of the Law.
No one has ever kept the Law completely. When he says, "doers of the Law", he didn't mean "those who do parts of the Law".

If you want to be justified by Law, you have to keep all of it, all your life.

So the point Paul is making is that we need grace through faith.

Much love!
 
  • Like
Reactions: GracePeace

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
5,442
1,108
113
Southwest, USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No one has ever kept the Law completely. When he says, "doers of the Law", he didn't mean "those who do parts of the Law".

If you want to be justified by Law, you have to keep all of it, all your life.

So the point Paul is making is that we need grace through faith.

Much love!
Those who walk after the Spirit do have God fulfilling the Law in them (Ro 8:4), so that they do fulfill the whole Law (Ro 13:8-10), hence the Law is not overthrown (Ro 3:31), because we are "doers of the Law" who will be justified by doing good (Ro 2:6-16), as opposedt to being told, "Get away from Me, you workers of lawlessness! I never knew you!"
This is just as James teaches : Abraham's faith was completed by his good works inspired by his faith, and he was justified by his good deeds, which meant he was justified by faith, because faith is completed by good deeds the way a body is completed by a spirit or a spirit is completed by a body.

When we are "under Grace", Paul expects sin will not "Master" us--ie, make us it's slaves--so, again, being "under Grace" is "the new way of serving".
 
Last edited:

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
5,442
1,108
113
Southwest, USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Just a serious note...

The Orthodox church left.
Here's why:

I don't agree that Peter was the first Pope,,,,but he was the first Bishop of Rome, so If the CC wants to say he was the first Pope...OK. Not that important to me.

However, The office of Pope was eventually given to just ONE MAN, instead of 5....and so the CC DID have a Pope.

Which church has NO POPE today because they prefer to have Bishops of areas?
Right.
The Orthodox church.

But the CC STILL has Popes to this day.

So who left who??
That's a debate for the Orthodox and RCs. My point was there has not been a singular unquestioned authoritative Church, we have to stick to God's Word as best we can.
Agreed.
And I'm happy that you capitalized Church...most don't do this.
Cool.
Cool.
'nuff of that.
I had my fun for the week at your expense.
I apologize.
I kinda felt bad for you because you weren't even addressing my problem. Lol
I've LOST the conversation!
I hope not?
I could give you a great example....but I've really had enough.
I mean, Biblically, there is the precedent that the gift of the Promised Land came with the stipulation that it had to be "possessed", so you could argue we don't merit or earn the gift, but there is always the stipulation that we "fight the fight of faith, lay hold on the eternal life to which you have been called" so that at the end of our lives we can say like Paul "i have fought a good fight, I have kept the faith; there is therefore laid up for me the crown of life".
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: GodsGrace

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
5,442
1,108
113
Southwest, USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Which riddle?
I answered this before : I do not know how to solve the riddle.


You'd rather not have an answer to WHAT?
I don't have a satisfactory answer to. I'd rather admit not having an answer than have a wrong/unsatisfactory answer (eg, distinguishing meriting from earning).

Yes..your thread has been derailed with no effort from you to bring it back to topic...
SO....I can't really remember what started all this......Which is something I don't normally do, BTW.
I usually TRY to follow 2 Timothy 2:24-25....
sometimes I lose track.
In my experience, and in Scripture, God is too good to deserve knowing Him. Therefore, it has to be a gift.

However, it seems to me I am only blessed if I walk in faith, doing what I am convinced is correct. Otherwise my conscience is defiled, and God doesn't answer my prayers.

However, in my experience, even when I was doing all I believed was correct, spending every last ounce of strength to serve God--and this also seems to be attested to in Scripture--God told me I was wrong for trying to save myself, and I just needed forgiveness. John says if we keep His commands we have confidence toward God--and i had a lot of confidence, but i think it was the "but not before God" type, because when I went before God, He just pointed to my sins, whereas I was trying to point to my good deeds, my deeds of faith,, to prove to God that I loved Him and that He should accept me because I was good. I thought i was being heroic in my obedience, but apparently (according to God) I was trying to save myself, trying to pay for my sins.

So it seems like we have to serve God, but it seems like we can't do it with the attitude that we are saving ourselves, even though it really is the case that we will be damned if we do not do right by faith.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
36,679
24,014
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Those who walk after the Spirit do have God fulfilling the Law in them (Ro 8:4),
Romans 8:3-4 KJV
3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The Law fulfilled in us, not by us.

so that they do fulfill the whole Law (Ro 13:8-10),
Romans 13:8-10 KJV
8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

What does it mean that love fulfills the Law? Does it mean that Christians keep all the Mosaic commandments? Does it mean that the purpose for the Law is met, even though the specific commandments are not in view?

What does it mean to you?

hence the Law is not overthrown (Ro 3:31),
Romans 3:30-31 KJV
30) Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

What do you mean when you say "the Law is not overthrown"?

Paul's argument here is that the necessity for faith shows that the Law is in fact valid and in force. Because everyone HAS TO have faith because everyone has broken the Law. Faith validates the Law by it's necessity.

because we are "doers of the Law" who will be justified by doing good (Ro 2:6-16), as opposedt to being told, "Get away from Me, you workers of lawlessness! I never knew you!"
Romans 2:4-15 KJV
4) Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5) But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8) But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9) Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10) But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11) For there is no respect of persons with God.
12) For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13) (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

No one - no one - not one - has kept the Law completely. Paul's statement here is absolute. Only the doers of the Law shall be justified, that is, by the keeping of the Law. Not "sometimes doers of the Law", not "neo-doers of the Law", but only those who keep the Law, in it's entirety, in the ways God meant the words, not this hokey "tie a rope so you can go further on the Sabbath", or some other subterfuge.

He's saying no matter whether you have the Law or you don't, you are still dead in your sin, and will be condemned by God.

This is just as James teaches : Abraham's faith was completed by his good works inspired by his faith, and he was justified by his good deeds, which meant he was justified by faith, because faith is completed by good deeds the way a body is completed by a spirit or a spirit is completed by a body.

James wrote concerning the demonstration of our faith to others, and in this way, our works justify us, but not before God. He knows our hearts, we don't earn salvation from God by doing good works.

James 2:18 LITV
But someone will say, You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith out of my works.

We don't have to make a physical demonstration of our faith to God, so that we can prove to Him what we believe, and whether we trust Him. The fact is, He knows full well whether He's given us rebirth or not.

When we are "under Grace", Paul expects sin will not "Master" us--ie, make us it's slaves--so, again, being "under Grace" is "the new way of serving".
Amen!!

Romans 6:1-2 KJV
1) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Much love!
 
  • Like
Reactions: GracePeace

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
36,679
24,014
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
In my experience, and in Scripture, God is too good to deserve knowing Him. Therefore, it has to be a gift.
Creation in it's entirety is God's gift of grace to us. Certainly our lives, and to know Him is the greatest gift of all!

Much love!
 
  • Like
Reactions: GracePeace

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
5,442
1,108
113
Southwest, USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Romans 8:3-4 KJV
3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The Law fulfilled in us, not by us.
The context is contrasting the happy estate of the Jew who believes and has Christ and is in the spirit not in the flesh (Ro 8:9) to the Jew without Christ in the flesh (Ro 8:5) and under the Law being mastered by sin (Ro 6:14, 7:7-24).

When God puts His Spirit in us He causes us to walk in His ways--that is why it is called "the righteousness of God apart from the Law" (Ro 3).

Did God want a people zealous for good works or not?
Romans 13:8-10 KJV
8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

What does it mean that love fulfills the Law? Does it mean that Christians keep all the Mosaic commandments? Does it mean that the purpose for the Law is met, even though the specific commandments are not in view?

What does it mean to you?
It means people know God, and they express God, and God is love, so when they bring people into the fellowship they have with God by glorifying God with their good works, their lives are lived in a loving way, so they are called "doers of the Law" who will be "repaid" eternal life when God judges them (Ro 2).
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
36,679
24,014
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Did God want a people zealous for good works or not?
I'm certain he does. But I have to say, I'm finding the rest of your post rather confusing so far as addressing the things I've said.

You've posted lots of references, but not the passages themselves. As I'm thinking about what those passages say, it just adds to my confusion how these are addressing what I've written.

Maybe I'll take a look back later and see if it makes more sense to me then.

Much love!
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
36,679
24,014
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It means people know God, and they express God, and God is love, so when they bring people into the fellowship they have with God by glorifying God with their good works, their lives are lived in a loving way, so they are called "doers of the Law" who will be "repaid" eternal life when God judges them (Ro 2).
Here's a question . . . where it says, "doers of the Law will be justified", does that refer to the Mosaic commandments? The Law as recorded in the Books of Moses?

Much love!
 

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
5,442
1,108
113
Southwest, USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Romans 3:30-31 KJV
30) Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

What do you mean when you say "the Law is not overthrown"?
Meaning that just because we walk by faith, and are "not under Law but under Grace", it doesn't lead to lawlessness, but "against the fruit of the Spirit there is no law".
Paul's argument here is that the necessity for faith shows that the Law is in fact valid and in force. Because everyone HAS TO have faith because everyone has broken the Law. Faith validates the Law by it's necessity.
That's one way of looking at it.
Romans 2:4-15 KJV
4) Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5) But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8) But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9) Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10) But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11) For there is no respect of persons with God.
12) For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13) (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

No one - no one - not one - has kept the Law completely. Paul's statement here is absolute. Only the doers of the Law shall be justified, that is, by the keeping of the Law. Not "sometimes doers of the Law", not "neo-doers of the Law", but only those who keep the Law, in it's entirety, in the ways God meant the words, not this hokey "tie a rope so you can go further on the Sabbath", or some other subterfuge.

He's saying no matter whether you have the Law or you don't, you are still dead in your sin, and will be condemned by God.
Paul says the believing Gentiles keep the Law because it is (in accordance with God's promise) written on the heart--and, on the other hand, Jesus will says workers of lawlessness will not make it.
James wrote concerning the demonstration of our faith to others, and in this way, our works justify us, but not before God. He knows our hearts, we don't earn salvation from God by doing good works.
I cannot agree :
1. The topic was "can such faith SAVE the man?" We don't need salvation from men.
2. No man went with Abraham to sacrifice his son, only God saw , and said, "Now that I know you love Me..."
James 2:18 LITV
But someone will say, You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith out of my works.

We don't have to make a physical demonstration of our faith to God, so that we can prove to Him what we believe, and whether we trust Him. The fact is, He knows full well whether He's given us rebirth or not.
James knew full well his audience was an audience of believers (he indicts them of committing spiritual adultery, idolatry, against the God they're "married" to), and he is simply calling them to repent of their worldliness and do to return to doing works in keeping with their profession of faith. Not difficult to understand.
Amen!!

Romans 6:1-2 KJV
1) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Much love!
Right, we died to sin, therefore he says "Do not let sin reign know your mortal bodies. Don't you know whoever you yield your members to you are slave to that? Whether of obedience unto righteousness or sin leading to death?"
 

Behold

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2020
20,315
8,123
113
Netanya or Pensacola
Faith
Christian
Country
Israel
I can't deny that eternal life can't be earned, but I also can't deny eternal life will be repaid only doers of the Law.

The born again are "not under the Law, but Under Grace"..

"Jesus came to redeem us (the believers) from the Curse of the Law".

The purpose of the Law and Commandments, are to set some behavioral boundaries, but most of all, they are to to reflect the Holiness of God, so that we see ourselves in that Light.......as this reveals that we are not holy, not righteous, and are in fact sinners who NEED TO BE FORGIVEN, and born again.

24:"" Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.""""
 

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
5,442
1,108
113
Southwest, USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm certain he does. But I have to say, I'm finding the rest of your post rather confusing so far as addressing the things I've said.

You've posted lots of references, but not the passages themselves. As I'm thinking about what those passages say, it just adds to my confusion how these are addressing what I've written.

Maybe I'll take a look back later and see if it makes more sense to me then.

Much love!
I don't see where my responses are lacking. I addressed you head-on in every case.
 

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
5,442
1,108
113
Southwest, USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Here's a question . . . where it says, "doers of the Law will be justified", does that refer to the Mosaic commandments? The Law as recorded in the Books of Moses?

Much love!
The Gentile believers mentioned there are "doers of the Law" bc God writes His Law on their hearts according to the text. I assume "the Law" they are "doers of" will accord with the list in Ro 13:8-10, as Paul also says they are keeping God's statutes (Ro 2:26,27) after mentioning the prohibitions against adultery and theft and idolatry.
 
Last edited:

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
5,442
1,108
113
Southwest, USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The born again are "not under the Law, but Under Grace"..

"Jesus came to redeem us (the believers) from the Curse of the Law".

The purpose of the Law and Commandments, are to set some behavioral boundaries, but most of all, they are to to reflect the Holiness of God, so that we see ourselves in that Light.......as this reveals that we are not holy, not righteous, and are in fact sinners who NEED TO BE FORGIVEN, and born again.

24:"" Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.""""
Yup, never said we were under Law.
YET it also says only doers of the Law will be justified--those who walk in God's righteousness by grace through faith.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
36,679
24,014
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Gentile believers mentioned there are "doers of the Law" bc God writes His Law on their hearts according to the text. I assume "the Law" they are "doers of" will accord with the list in Ro 13:8-10, as Paul also says they are keeping God's statutes (Ro 2:26,27) after mentioning the prohibitions against adultery and theft and idolatry.
So then you are saying this passage is not speaking concerning the Mosaic Law, but refers to them following their conscience?

Much love!
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
36,679
24,014
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Paul says the believing Gentiles keep the Law
Where does he say "believing Gentiles"? I don't see that.

There's an interesting fact kind of hidden from the English translation, where it says, "excusing and accusing others", accusing is written in the active voice, which is what I'd expect, they are accusing others. But where it says, "excusing", this is a deponant verb, which is to say it can be either passive or reflexive. Passive voice wouldn't make any sense here, because it's talking about what the person is doing that demonstrates they have an understanding of right and wrong.

In the Middle voice, or Reflexive, the action returns to the doer. So what this passage is specifically saying is that they accuse others and excuse themselves.

Much love!
 

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
5,442
1,108
113
Southwest, USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So then you are saying this passage is not speaking concerning the Mosaic Law, but refers to them following their conscience?

Much love!
Please read what I wrote, then respond, because your question is answered there, and when you do not read what I write, and then ask questions I've already answered, you make me think I shouldn't waste my time.