Earning Knowledge of God / Eternal Life

[GracePeace]

I'm sure you will MERIT heaven.
But I'm sure you have not EARNED it.

If you say "I'll give this to you freely", that differs from "If you do something for me, you'll get this, but if you don't I won't give it to you."

One is a gift, the other is conditioned on earning/meriting.

Of course God wants us to freely choose to do things that please Him...
this is why we have free will.

I think you're missing my point, but OK.

 

[GodsGrace]

If you say "I'll give this to you freely", that differs from "If you do something for me, you'll get this, but if you don't I won't give it to you."

If you MERITED something...
it was given to you FREELY.

One is a gift, the other is conditioned on earning/meriting.

I think you're missing my point, but OK.

I'm not missing your point.
But OK.

 

[GracePeace]

If you MERITED something...
it was given to you FREELY.

Without the meriting, it wouldn't have been given, so, no, it isn't given freely, it is rewarded upon fulfillment of a condition. The two are not the same.

 

[GodsGrace]

Without the meriting, it wouldn't have been given, so, no, it isn't given freely, it is rewarded upon fulfillment of a condition. The two are not the same.

I don't know GP....you really want to discuss this?

Someone MERITS a promotion.
They worked.
Maybe harder than others.
But did anyone ask them to or are they just good workers?

They MERITED the promotion.

Did they EARN it?
Yes....if it was known that if they worked hard they WOULD be promoted....
THEN it was earned and is not a gift.

IF there was no announcement as to promotions...
but the person worked well...

then they MERITED a promotion.

There's a difference in language or there would not be TWO different words.
There's a difference in theology because man cannot EARN his way into heaven...
but he does MERIT heaven when born again.


merit.

merit

1. the quality of being good and deserving praise: 2. the advantages something…

dictionary.cambridge.org

earn:

earn

1. to receive money as payment for work that you do: 2. to get something that…

dictionary.cambridge.org

 

[GracePeace]

I don't know GP....you really want to discuss this?

Someone MERITS a promotion.
They worked.
Maybe harder than others.
But did anyone ask them to or are they just good workers?

They MERITED the promotion.

Did they EARN it?
Yes....if it was known that if they worked hard they WOULD be promoted....
THEN it was earned and is not a gift.

IF there was no announcement as to promotions...
but the person worked well...

then they MERITED a promotion.

There's a difference in language or there would not be TWO different words.
There's a difference in theology because man cannot EARN his way into heaven...
but he does MERIT heaven when born again.


merit.

merit

1. the quality of being good and deserving praise: 2. the advantages something…

dictionary.cambridge.org

earn:

earn

1. to receive money as payment for work that you do: 2. to get something that…

dictionary.cambridge.org

You're not going to convince me that a conditioned reward is the same as a gift--a gift is not given upon fulfillment of a condition, it's just given.

 

[GodsGrace]

You're not going to convince me that a conditioned reward is the same as a gift--a gift is not given upon fulfillment of a condition, it's just given.

OK
End of conversation.
BUT
I didn't list any conditions!

 

[GracePeace]

OK
End of conversation.
BUT
I didn't list any conditions!

Yep, you did : if the person doesn't do the "meritorious" thing, he doesn't get the blessing, thus it isn't a gift, the dynamic of which totally differs.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yep, you did : if the person doesn't do the "meritorious" thing, he doesn't get the blessing, thus it isn't a gift, the dynamic of which totally differs.

What was the condition that I stated that was necessary to merit something?
Including salvation.

 

[GracePeace]

What was the condition that I stated that was necessary to merit something?
Including salvation.

You said if the good thing is done, then the person gets the good thing.

 

[GracePeace]

If my son goes out on a Saturday morning and wants to help me by cutting the grass
and he does so....I may want to give him some spending money...or take him to a game...
or who knows what else.
HE MERITED HIS PAY.

The reason this analogy doesn't work is because, Biblically, if the son doesn't fulfill his father's will, he is disowned/disinherited/blotted out of the Book--he unbecomes a son, he doesn't remain a son. He is denied before the Father and His holy angels, as Jesus warns in the Synoptic Gospels and in Revelation. His sins return and are remembered, not forgotten--he has his saving faith stripped from him for his not walking in faith in the truth. Therefore, he is saving himself by his choice of thoughts and deeds. It is not a static relationship, "You are my son, if you do good I may reward you," it's also, "You are my son, but if you don't do what I want, you will no longer be My son, and I will forget you ever were My son, and I will torment you unspeakably with things that are so horrific you cannot even imagine."

 

[GodsGrace]

The reason this analogy doesn't work is because, Biblically, if the son doesn't fulfill his father's will, he is disowned/disinherited/blotted out of the Book--he unbecomes a son, he doesn't remain a son. He is denied before the Father and His holy angels, as Jesus warns in the Synoptic Gospels and in Revelation. His sins return and are remembered, not forgotten--he has his saving faith stripped from him for his not walking in faith in the truth. Therefore, he is saving himself by his choice of thoughts and deeds. It is not a static relationship, "You are my son, if you do good I may reward you," it's also, "You are my son, but if you don't do what I want, you will no longer be My son, and I will forget you ever were My son, and I will torment you unspeakably with things that are so horrific you cannot even imagine."

Analogies never work and I hate using them.
I couldn't think of another way to explain the word merit and how we MERIT salvation.

I didn't say anything about the son not fulfilling the father's will,,,,
because I NEVER mentioned the father's will.

I only mentioned that the father was PLEASED with his son for cutting the grass and wanted to reward him.
If the son had NEVER CUT THE GRASS,,,,he still would have remained a son because THE FATHER DID NOT make any request for him to cut the grass.

Then, in your post, you go on to say biblical teachings....
The son, in my analogy, did not stop walking in faith.....
THIS IS WHAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND.

The sons's father NEVER requested that he cut the grass.

You state above "YOU ARE MY SON BUT IF YOU DON'T DO WHAT I WANT, YOU WILL NO LONGER BE MY SON".

Do you understand that I NEVER, in all these posts, stated that any action/work was required?

You know, this may seem like a silly argument, but it's really pretty important.

Now,,,if you can come to understand the difference between EARNING something and MERITING something,,,I'd be happy to go through your biblical concepts above.

 

[GracePeace]

Analogies never work and I hate using them.

Don't use them if you won't use them correctly.

I couldn't think of another way to explain the word merit and how we MERIT salvation.

Maybe your idea is just wrong.

I didn't say anything about the son not fulfilling the father's will,,,,
because I NEVER mentioned the father's will.

I only mentioned that the father was PLEASED with his son for cutting the grass and wanted to reward him.
If the son had NEVER CUT THE GRASS,,,,he still would have remained a son because THE FATHER DID NOT make any request for him to cut the grass.

Again, your analogy doesn't work, then : God has commands, whereas your "father" has no commands.

Then, in your post, you go on to say biblical teachings....
The son, in my analogy, did not stop walking in faith.....
THIS IS WHAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND.

The sons's father NEVER requested that he cut the grass

You state above "YOU ARE MY SON BUT IF YOU DON'T DO WHAT I WANT, YOU WILL NO LONGER BE MY SON".

Do you understand that I NEVER, in all these posts, stated that any action/work was required?

You know, this may seem like a silly argument, but it's really pretty important.

That is a flaw in your analogy, not in my conclusion of the message of the Scriptures.

Now,,,if you can come to understand the difference between EARNING something and MERITING something,,,I'd be happy to go through your biblical concepts above.

Not interested in a Catholic view that has lacked explanatory power for a long time.

 

[GodsGrace]

Don't use them if you won't use them correctly.

Maybe your idea is just wrong.

Again, your analogy doesn't work, then : God has commands, whereas your "father" has no commands.

That is a flaw in your analogy, not in my conclusion of the message of the Scriptures.

Not interested in a Catholic view that has lacked explanatory power for a long time.

I'm done with this.
And, BTW,,,Catholics got a lot right.
It's your loss if you don't like the CC for whatever reason.
If it wasn't for the CC,,,you and I wouldn't be having this conversation on a Christian forum.

And...I used my analogy correctly,,,
not my fault if you can't understand it.

 

[GracePeace]

I'm done with this.
And, BTW,,,Catholics got a lot right.
It's your loss if you don't like the CC for whatever reason.
If it wasn't for the CC,,,you and I wouldn't be having this conversation on a Christian forum.

Yes, they got a lot right. Of course. They have the Bible.

And...I used my analogy correctly,,,
not my fault if you can't understand it.

Your attitude is the typical Catholic attitude--ie, "I'm 100% correct, and cannot be corrected."
That attitude is not conducive to actual analysis and discussion of ideas.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, they got a lot right. Of course. They have the Bible.

Your attitude is the typical Catholic attitude--ie, "I'm 100% correct, and cannot be corrected."
That attitude is not conducive to actual analysis and discussion of ideas.

I'm in that kind of mood GP,,,which I usually am not...so here goes:

1. Yes. The Catholics not only have the bible...
THEY compiled it for you. Wasn't that nice of them?

2. My attìtude is the same as YOURS.

Do YOU not believe YOURSELF to be CORRECT in this discussion?

Why does YOUR understanding of the matter supersede MY understanding of the matter?

Have we not had a nice conversation regarding said matter?
Have I been hostile to you?
Have I been condescending to you? (even though you don't understand the difference beween EARNING and MERITING).

Oh, excuse me...was THAT condescending?
So were your remarks about Catholics personally, and Catholicism in general.

And
Last but not least,,,
I'm not Catholic, but I harbor no hatred against any denomination...not even my least favorite which is the reformed....
UNLIKE yourself that hates a denomination which is as Christian as YOU are.

Am I over-reacting?
Maybe.
But hearing some stuff gets sooooo tiring.

Your turn.

 

[PGS11]

You can't earn it you can't buy it and you can't raise yourself up at death only Jesus can.That's what salvation is Jesus has raised you up its not some magical knowledge that saves you Jesus does.All the knowledge in the world will not save you - your saved by faith in the sacrifice Jesus made - you can do nothing but believe and live to your Christian faith and values and put your hope in Jesus that's what faith is Hope.

 

[GracePeace]

I'm in that kind of mood GP,,,which I usually am not...so here goes:

1. Yes. The Catholics not only have the bible...
THEY compiled it for you. Wasn't that nice of them?

1. The Orthodox would argue that they, not the Roman Catholics, did--and that the Roman Catholics are the first Protestants, having arrogated yourselves to a position you didnt earn or merit, having unilaterally decided to change the ancient tradition by adding the "Filioque".

2. I'm part of the Church that compiled the Bible. We have done good and we have done bad. Like any human. I do not consider the Canon closed for that reason. For instance, Paul cites a writing not included in the Scriptural canon, "the Rock that followed them was Christ."
So I'm glad my Church had some thoughts that these were good reliable writings, but that doesn't mean I abandon reason, and close my eyes to what it before me.

2. My attìtude is the same as YOURS.

No, actually, it isn't : I gave REASON for why I concluded what I did (I rejected your analogy bc your father has no commands whereas Christianity's father is all about following His commands--and if we don't we won't enter His Kingdom) but you said "I'm right because I'm right, and if you don't accept it, too bad."

We are not doing the same thing at all.

(even though you don't understand the difference beween EARNING and MERITING).

The Catholic way of reconciling the matter is a failure : if it is those who do not do the good thing (whether it is counted as meriting or earning is irrelevant) who do not get the good thing, it is still tit for tat, it is not a gift.

So, the difference is that I admit I don't understand the matter, whereas you offer an empty solution for the matter.

 

[GodsGrace]

1. The Orthodox would argue that they, nkt you, did--and that you are the first Protestants, having arrogated yourselces to a position you didnt earn or merit, having unilaterally decided to add the Filioque.

Do you know that when the bible was compiled the Orthodox had not yet LEFT the CC...which is the original church?

Wow. The Filoque....and do you THINK THIS is the reason the Orthodox schizemed from the church?

2. I'm part of the Church that compiled the Bible.

You're Catholic?

We have done good and we have done bad. Like any human. I do not consider the Canon closed for that reason. For instance, Paul cites a writing not included in the Scriptural canon, "the Rock that followed them was Christ."
So I'm glad my Church had some thoughts that these were good reliable writings, but that doesn't mean I abandon reason, and close my eyes to what it before me.

So you don't close your eyes...
but others do I suppose.
This is what you're inferring.

No, actually, it isn't : I gave REASON for why I concluded what I did (I rejected your analogy bc your father has no commands

Ummmm. THIS is exactly the reason the money was MERITED and NOT EARNED.
The son was NOT COMMANDED to cut the grass.

Yeah. I could go on forever.

whereas Christianity's father is all about following His commands--and if we don't we won't enter His Kingdom)

Oooooh. THIS sounds like EARNING......which you were arguing AGAINST!
Interesting stuff.

but you said "I'm right because I'm right, and if you don't accept it, too bad."

Well, let's see.
This isn't a doctrinal conversation/discussion.
It's about the English language.

I MOST DEFINETLY am right and I even posted the definitions from the Cambridge Dictionary.

So....GP,,,,you're not as open-minded as you THINK you are.

We are not doing the same thing at all.

Yes sir.
YOU believe you're right
and YOU believe I'm wrong.

YOU are doing exactly the same thing you accuse me of.

Want to start an argument over this too?

The Catholic way of reconciling the matter is a failure : if it is those who do not do the good thing (whether it is counted as meriting or earning is irrelevant) who do not get the good thing, it is still tit for tat, it is not a gift.

But....wait....just above YOU stated that there are commands for our heavenly Father, unlike the father in my analogy that had no commands.

So you mean to tell me we have TO EARN our way into heaven?
Interesting stuff.
And after all this arguing about EARNING and MERITING and the difference between the two.
(which you do not accept since you believe both are exactly the same---guess you know more than dictionaries.

So, the difference is that I admit I don't understand the matter, whereas you offer an empty solution for the matter.

No sir.
You NEVER said you don't understand the matter.
YOUR position is that EARN and MERIT mean exactly the same.
MY position is that they mean two different concepts.

Wow. Haven't had this much fun arguing since my last argument with my husband......
MANY years ago.

 

[GracePeace]

Do you know that when the bible was compiled the Orthodox had not yet LEFT the CC...which is the original church?

Wow. The Filoque....and do you THINK THIS is the reason the Orthodox schizemed from the church?

They say you left--"he said, she said."

You're Catholic?

Christ is indvisible : all members of Christ's body are part of the same Church, no matter what outward delineations.

So you don't close your eyes...
but others do I suppose.
This is what you're inferring.

No, my point was men are created with reason, and ought to be reasoned with, not forced against their reason and conscience. Not just me. All.
Also, my point was that I recognize good that was done, but it needn't result in the belief in a closed canon--I needn't take their authority too far.

Ummmm. THIS is exactly the reason the money was MERITED and NOT EARNED.
The son was NOT COMMANDED to cut the grass.

Yeah. I could go on forever.

Again, your analogy doesn't work bc your father had no commands, whereas the father in Scripture has commands.

Oooooh. THIS sounds like EARNING......which you were arguing AGAINST!
Interesting stuff.

This shouldn't surprise you : your attempt to distinguish meriting from earning is an acknowledgment of the very problem that I have been saying I don't have a satisfactory answer to. I'd rather admit not having an answer than have a wrong/unsatisfactory answer (eg, distinguishing meriting from earning).

"Welcome to the conversation" I guess I should say?

Well, let's see.
This isn't a doctrinal conversation/discussion.
It's about the English language.

Yeah, and in the English language, a gift isn't preceded by merit because that would be earning whereas a gift is unearned and unmerited.

I MOST DEFINETLY am right and I even posted the definitions from the Cambridge Dictionary.

Irrelevant : both make a gift into "not a gift", and your analogy doesn't work bc the God of Scripture has demands.

So....GP,,,,you're not as open-minded as you THINK you are.

You are just now (potentially) joining the conversation, so you really wouldn't know.

Yes sir.
YOU believe you're right
and YOU believe I'm wrong.

YOU are doing exactly the same thing you accuse me of.

No, I explained why I rejected your analogy, and all you could do was emptily insist your analogy had no flaws, and that I wasn't justified in objecting, you didn't come back and explain why I shouldn't have objected.

You're not using reason.

But....wait....just above YOU stated that there are commands for our heavenly Father, unlike the father in my analogy that had no commands.

So you mean to tell me we have TO EARN our way into heaven?
Interesting stuff.
And after all this arguing about EARNING and MERITING and the difference between the two.
(which you do not accept since you believe both are exactly the same---guess you know more than dictionaries.


No sir.
You NEVER said you don't understand the matter.
YOUR position is that EARN and MERIT mean exactly the same.
MY position is that they mean two different concepts.

I answered this before : I do not know how to solve the riddle.

 

[GodsGrace]

They say you left--"he said, she said."

Christ is indvisible : all members of Christ's body are part of the same Church, no matter what outward delineations.

No, my point was men are created with reason, and ought to be reasoned with, not forced against their reason and conscience. Not just me. All.
Also, my point was that I recognize good that was done, but it needn't result in the belief in a closed canon--I needn't take their authority too far.

Again, your analogy doesn't work bc your father had no commands, whereas the father in Scripture has commands.

This shouldn't surprise you : your attempt to distinguish meriting from earning is an acknowledgment of the very problem that I have been saying I don't have a satisfactory answer to. I'd rather admit not having an answer than have a wrong/unsatisfactory answer (eg, distinguishing meriting from earning).

"Welcome to the conversation" I guess I should say?

Yeah, and in the English language, a gift isn't preceded by merit because that would be earning whereas a gift is unearned and unmerited.

Irrelevant : both make a gift into "not a gift", and your analogy doesn't work bc the God of Scripture has demands.

You are just now (potentially) joining the conversation, so you really wouldn't know.

No, I explained why I rejected your analogy, and all you could do was emptily insist your analogy had no flaws, and that I wasn't justified in objecting, you didn't come back and explain why I shouldn't have objected.

You're not using reason.

I answered this before : I do not know how to solve the riddle.

Which riddle?
I answered this before : I do not know how to solve the riddle.


You'd rather not have an answer to WHAT?
I don't have a satisfactory answer to. I'd rather admit not having an answer than have a wrong/unsatisfactory answer (eg, distinguishing meriting from earning).

Yes..your thread has been derailed with no effort from you to bring it back to topic...
SO....I can't really remember what started all this......Which is something I don't normally do, BTW.
I usually TRY to follow 2 Timothy 2:24-25....
sometimes I lose track.