Dream Interpretation - New Age?

[Paul Christensen]

i got into trouble on CF concerning my views about dream interpretation, and I posted a warning to make sure that the dream and the interpretation comes from the Holy Spirit and not from another spirit. I ended up getting a three month ban for my trouble. Perhaps I should have put my views into the Controversial Theology Forum and I could have had my post better accepted by the wider Christian community on the forum.

What worries me about dreams and interpretation is that it is not found in the New Testament as a standard form of guidance for Christian believers, and the dreams that Joseph, the husband of Mary received were not image puzzles, but direct instructions. But the dreams described in the Sign Gifts section of CF are image puzzles that need interpretation. There is one post that advertises a site called Bible Dream Interpretation, and that is very similar to a number of New Age sites offering dream interpretation, and also a psychology site giving a large classification list of dream topics and suggested interpretations. These interpretations are almost exactly the same as the Christians on CF giving their interpretations presumably from the Holy Spirit.

The classic work on Dream Interpretation is Sigmund Freud's book "The Interpretation of Dreams" and the whole New Age dream interpretation has come from that book; and Freud was an atheist.

But seeing that the dream interpretation sites are non-Christian New Age sites, I am increasingly of the view that "Christian" dream interpretation is merely New Age occult, and those who are involved in it are deceived into thinking that the Holy Spirit guides people in this way. Similar New Age sites invite people to predict the future, and to get in touch with their spirit guide, which is clearly of the occult and nothing to do with Christian guidance at all.

I think we have to take Jeremiah 23:25-40 very seriously, and I am not apologising for quoting it in full:

"25 “I have heard what the prophets say who prophesy lies in my name. They say, ‘I had a dream! I had a dream!’ 26 How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets, who prophesy the delusions of their own minds? 27 They think the dreams they tell one another will make my people forget my name, just as their ancestors forgot my name through Baal worship. 28 Let the prophet who has a dream recount the dream, but let the one who has my word speak it faithfully. For what has straw to do with grain?” declares the Lord. 29 “Is not my word like fire,” declares the Lord, “and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?

30 “Therefore,” declares the Lord, “I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from me. 31 Yes,” declares the Lord, “I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, ‘The Lord declares.’ 32 Indeed, I am against those who prophesy false dreams,” declares the Lord. “They tell them and lead my people astray with their reckless lies, yet I did not send or appoint them. They do not benefit these people in the least,” declares the Lord.

False Prophecy
33 “When these people, or a prophet or a priest, ask you, ‘What is the message from the Lord?’ say to them, ‘What message? I will forsake you, declares the Lord.’ 34 If a prophet or a priest or anyone else claims, ‘This is a message from the Lord,’ I will punish them and their household. 35 This is what each of you keeps saying to your friends and other Israelites: ‘What is the Lord’s answer?’ or ‘What has the Lord spoken?’ 36 But you must not mention ‘a message from the Lord’ again, because each one’s word becomes their own message. So you distort the words of the living God, the Lord Almighty, our God. 37 This is what you keep saying to a prophet: ‘What is the Lord’s answer to you?’ or ‘What has the Lord spoken?’ 38 Although you claim, ‘This is a message from the Lord,’ this is what the Lord says: You used the words, ‘This is a message from the Lord,’ even though I told you that you must not claim, ‘This is a message from the Lord.’ 39 Therefore, I will surely forget you and cast you out of my presence along with the city I gave to you and your ancestors. 40 I will bring on you everlasting disgrace—everlasting shame that will not be forgotten.”

I can understand one or two who are right into dream interpretation getting their noses out of joint, because dream interpretation has become very popular in Charismatic circles in recent days, and giving a warning like this would possibly be a threat to their faith. But we must be very careful about receiving stuff that may or may not be from the Holy Spirit, and if it is not mentioned anywhere in the New Testament then we must be extra careful that we are not led into occult practice which could introduce an attack of a spirit of divination that could serious harm us.

 

[DNB]

"25 “I have heard what the prophets say who prophesy lies in my name. They say, ‘I had a dream! I had a dream!’ 26 How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets, who prophesy the delusions of their own minds? 27 They think the dreams they tell one another will make my people forget my name, just as their ancestors forgot my name through Baal worship. 28 Let the prophet who has a dream recount the dream, but let the one who has my word speak it faithfully. For what has straw to do with grain?” declares the Lord. 29 “Is not my word like fire,” declares the Lord, “and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?

30 “Therefore,” declares the Lord, “I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from me. 31 Yes,” declares the Lord, “I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, ‘The Lord declares.’ 32 Indeed, I am against those who prophesy false dreams,” declares the Lord. “They tell them and lead my people astray with their reckless lies, yet I did not send or appoint them. They do not benefit these people in the least,” declares the Lord.

False Prophecy
33 “When these people, or a prophet or a priest, ask you, ‘What is the message from the Lord?’ say to them, ‘What message? I will forsake you, declares the Lord.’ 34 If a prophet or a priest or anyone else claims, ‘This is a message from the Lord,’ I will punish them and their household. 35 This is what each of you keeps saying to your friends and other Israelites: ‘What is the Lord’s answer?’ or ‘What has the Lord spoken?’ 36 But you must not mention ‘a message from the Lord’ again, because each one’s word becomes their own message. So you distort the words of the living God, the Lord Almighty, our God. 37 This is what you keep saying to a prophet: ‘What is the Lord’s answer to you?’ or ‘What has the Lord spoken?’ 38 Although you claim, ‘This is a message from the Lord,’ this is what the Lord says: You used the words, ‘This is a message from the Lord,’ even though I told you that you must not claim, ‘This is a message from the Lord.’ 39 Therefore, I will surely forget you and cast you out of my presence along with the city I gave to you and your ancestors. 40 I will bring on you everlasting disgrace—everlasting shame that will not be forgotten.”

I can understand one or two who are right into dream interpretation getting their noses out of joint, because dream interpretation has become very popular in Charismatic circles in recent days, and giving a warning like this would possibly be a threat to their faith. But we must be very careful about receiving stuff that may or may not be from the Holy Spirit, and if it is not mentioned anywhere in the New Testament then we must be extra careful that we are not led into occult practice which could introduce an attack of a spirit of divination that could serious harm us.

Well, I'm with you on this Paul, and if you don't mind, maybe a bit more indignant than yourself (possibly you're just being a bit diplomatic)?
I have just had it with the utter nonsense that proceeds from these so called, holy spirit indwelt, believers. God does not send people cryptic, ambiguous and redundant visions, that require a third-party to interpret, ...without sending the third-party directly to them. But instead, they indiscriminately seek advise and insight from people who aren't even aware that they even had a dream (should be 1st criteria required), and just start frivolously speculating on its meaning. And typically, the interpretation proposed is always so unspecific, obvious and repetitive.

In my mind, it is always those who do not perceive the wisdom and challenges within the Bible enough, that they must entertain or justify themselves in some other misguided manner. That is, rarely will you find people who subscribe to these activities, as actually having a sound theology, and good judgement in general.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Well, I'm with you on this Paul, and if you don't mind, maybe a bit more indignant than yourself (possibly you're just being a bit diplomatic)?
I have just had it with the utter nonsense that proceeds from these so called, holy spirit indwelt, believers. God does not send people cryptic, ambiguous and redundant visions, that require a third-party to interpret, ...without sending the third-party directly to them. But instead, they indiscriminately seek advise and insight from people who aren't even aware that they even had a dream (should be 1st criteria required), and just start frivolously speculating on its meaning. And typically, the interpretation proposed is always so unspecific, obvious and repetitive.

In my mind, it is always those who do not perceive the wisdom and challenges within the Bible enough, that they must entertain or justify themselves in some other misguided manner. That is, rarely will you find people who subscribe to these activities, as actually having a sound theology, and good judgement in general.

I am in total agreement with you. Thank goodness someone else has the sense and discernment to see that this dream and "vision" interpretation is not just a load of what comes out of a horse's backside, but it is dangerous occult New Age divination.

Posting on CF is like walking on egg shells these days. Dream and vision interpretation is not a sign gift; in fact, it is not a spiritual gift at all. I tried to say this on CF and was banned. I appealed and quoted Wikipedia about the type of dreams and interpretation that Sigmund Freud went into to show that what was being posted on the sign gifts forum was exactly the same and that people needed to be warned from the Word of God. But the staff there didn't even acknowledge that I was correct in what I said. I almost decided to close my account with them, because it seems that they are increasing their support for New Age stuff. It is really sad that one cannot state the truth on a "Christian" forum without being reported, slammed, and banned from the forum. I told the staff that if it meant making the difference between heaven and hell for just one person, then it was worth the ban. I just hope that there are sensible and genuine staff members on that forum who will take what I said seriously.

 

[Mungo]

You have posted about this before.
Dream Interpretation - Is it New Age?

Why are you starting the same topic?

Here is my reply frpom that thread.
I believe that it is possible for God to speak to us in dreams and visions and sometimes they need interpretation. But like many things in God's world the devil can provide counterfeits. Therefore prayer and discernment is necessary.

The book of Revelation is a vision. Was it an awake vision or a dream vision?
It certainly needs a lot of interpretation.

There are numerous examples in the OT of God speaking to people in dreams.

There are also other examples in the NT

The wise men in Mt 2:12
And being warned in a dream not to return to Herod, they departed to their own country by another way.

Herod's wife in Mt 27:19
Besides, while he was sitting on the judgment seat, his wife sent word to him, “Have nothing to do with that righteous man, for I have suffered much over him today in a dream.”

Then Paul in Acts 16:9
And a vision appeared to Paul in the night "And a vision appeared to Paul in the night: a man of Macedo′nia was standing beseeching him and saying, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.” As As it was at night it probably was a dream.

And what about Acts 2:17
‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;

You didn't reply to my post in the other thread.
Are you going to ignore this post and start yet another thread on the same topic?

 

[Paul Christensen]

You have posted about this before.
Dream Interpretation - Is it New Age?

Why are you starting the same topic?

Here is my reply frpom that thread.
I believe that it is possible for God to speak to us in dreams and visions and sometimes they need interpretation. But like many things in God's world the devil can provide counterfeits. Therefore prayer and discernment is necessary.

The book of Revelation is a vision. Was it an awake vision or a dream vision?
It certainly needs a lot of interpretation.

There are numerous examples in the OT of God speaking to people in dreams.

There are also other examples in the NT

The wise men in Mt 2:12
And being warned in a dream not to return to Herod, they departed to their own country by another way.

Herod's wife in Mt 27:19
Besides, while he was sitting on the judgment seat, his wife sent word to him, “Have nothing to do with that righteous man, for I have suffered much over him today in a dream.”

Then Paul in Acts 16:9
And a vision appeared to Paul in the night "And a vision appeared to Paul in the night: a man of Macedo′nia was standing beseeching him and saying, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.” As As it was at night it probably was a dream.

And what about Acts 2:17
‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;

You didn't reply to my post in the other thread.
Are you going to ignore this post and start yet another thread on the same topic?

The dreams quoted in the New Testament are not image puzzles that need third party interpretation. They are definite messages clearly understood by the person receiving the dream.

Interpretation of dreamed puzzle images and random images is New Age occult divination and not of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Mungo]

The dreams quoted in the New Testament are not image puzzles that need third party interpretation. They are definite messages clearly understood by the person receiving the dream.

You don't know that.
You don't know what the actual dream a person had but only their interpretation of it.
For example the wise men in Mt 2:12
And being warned in a dream not to return to Herod, they departed to their own country by another way.
What were the details of the dream?
We don't know. All we know is that they interpreted it as being a warning not to return to Herod.

Herod's wife in Mt 27:19
Besides, while he was sitting on the judgment seat, his wife sent word to him, “Have nothing to do with that righteous man, for I have suffered much over him today in a dream.”
Again what were the details of the dream?
We don't know. But as she suffered much over him it sounds like a traumatic dream.

 

[Candidus]

Literacy rates were low in Bible times. The availability of having a whole Bible would have been the property of few and the rich. I can see why God may use the extraordinary, such as dreams to speak to people.

Many people do not have a problem discerning when God is speaking to them, and I have met a lot of people that obviously confuse their own wills, desires, and crazy dreams to declare that it comes from God. How do I know? One is the frequency in which they are so wrong when they chase these rainbows! The other is that many of these things they do are questionably Biblical.

The Bible speaks of natural (normal) dreams as "many" or common empty dreams (Eccles. 5:3), Divine dreams (Gen. 28:12), and evil dreams (Deut. 13:1-2; Jer. 23:32). So, many, if not most dreams, are natural and empty. Divine dreams are rare and remarkable. And evil dreams exist, and we are warned not to be duped by them.

In the advent of the completion of the cannon, the availability of processing potions, if not a complete set of Scriptures, as these became more available we have in writing a more certain guidance for the individual. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit to every believer as their Guide into all truth, would create little need for the normalcy of dreams to speak to instruct the believer. We walk by faith, not by sight.

Does God still use dreams? The need for extraordinary guidance beyond the Scriptures and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, would not be common or likely. God is God and can communicate His will as He pleases; no man can stop that. Even in Scripture, dreams of Divine origin are rare and extraordinary. In our day I cannot deny that God might give someone special direction in a dream. I cannot accept that that is normal for someone to get frequent direction via dreams. I conclude that the facts of the Believer having the Holy Spirit and the written words of God, the need of using dreams would be rarer than Biblical times. Most people cannot discern between their own will and voice, the voice of God, and the dreams and wiles of the devil. This is a problem when it comes to modern dreams and the interpretation of those dreams. Especially when Believers obsess over dreams instead of the sure direction of the Scriptures and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Walk by faith and not by sight.

 

[DNB]

I am in total agreement with you. Thank goodness someone else has the sense and discernment to see that this dream and "vision" interpretation is not just a load of what comes out of a horse's backside, but it is dangerous occult New Age divination.

Posting on CF is like walking on egg shells these days. Dream and vision interpretation is not a sign gift; in fact, it is not a spiritual gift at all. I tried to say this on CF and was banned. I appealed and quoted Wikipedia about the type of dreams and interpretation that Sigmund Freud went into to show that what was being posted on the sign gifts forum was exactly the same and that people needed to be warned from the Word of God. But the staff there didn't even acknowledge that I was correct in what I said. I almost decided to close my account with them, because it seems that they are increasing their support for New Age stuff. It is really sad that one cannot state the truth on a "Christian" forum without being reported, slammed, and banned from the forum. I told the staff that if it meant making the difference between heaven and hell for just one person, then it was worth the ban. I just hope that there are sensible and genuine staff members on that forum who will take what I said seriously.

Yeah, that seems rather unreasonable on the staff's part, where you showed the affinity with Freudian thought, verbatim. To the point that I think your first suspicion was correct, the staff members are involved or subscribe to the heresy.
Well, there you go, Paul always said that there will be persecution directed against the truth...

 

[101G]

Greeting Paul, this might help,
Deuteronomy 13:1 "If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
Deuteronomy 13:2 "And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
Deuteronomy 13:3 "Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul".
hmmmmmmm...... you might want to read that again.


Deuteronomy 18:20 "But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Deuteronomy 18:21 "And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
Deuteronomy 18:22 "When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him".

so if you say in your heart, "How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?", do this,
A. 2 Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth".

B. Acts 17:11 "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so".

C. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good".

D. do all the above, but now inquire of the Holy Ghost of your finding, and do all the above with the Holy Ghost.

PICJAG.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Does God still use dreams? The need for extraordinary guidance beyond the Scriptures and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, would not be common or likely. God is God and can communicate His will as He pleases; no man can stop that. Even in Scripture, dreams of Divine origin are rare and extraordinary. In our day I cannot deny that God might give someone special direction in a dream. I cannot accept that that is normal for someone to get frequent direction via dreams. I conclude that the facts of the Believer having the Holy Spirit and the written words of God, the need of using dreams would be rarer than Biblical times. Most people cannot discern between their own will and voice, the voice of God, and the dreams and wiles of the devil. This is a problem when it comes to modern dreams and the interpretation of those dreams. Especially when Believers obsess over dreams instead of the sure direction of the Scriptures and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Walk by faith and not by sight.

This is actually a fairly well-grounded post. And yes, there are many carnal Christians who receive dreams that are not from God, and others still who offer interpretations that aren't either. There is a grave danger here, however, in throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Scripture prophesies that the Spirit of God is going to be greatly poured out in the end-times, and with it, our sons and daughters will prophecy, our young men will see visions, and our old men will dream dreams (Joel 2:28). The suggestion here is that operating in the prophetic will involve receiving dreams and visions, and that these will become extremely prevalent among the end-time saints. It will in fact become the trademark for how the Spirit manifests Himself once He is poured out.

The OP will maybe argue that all such dreams will not need interpretation, but as my post in the other thread explains, this is a faulty interpretation of relevant NT passages on the subject:
Dream Interpretation - Is it New Age?

 

[Paul Christensen]

You don't know that.
You don't know what the actual dream a person had but only their interpretation of it.
For example the wise men in Mt 2:12
And being warned in a dream not to return to Herod, they departed to their own country by another way.
What were the details of the dream?
We don't know. All we know is that they interpreted it as being a warning not to return to Herod.

Herod's wife in Mt 27:19
Besides, while he was sitting on the judgment seat, his wife sent word to him, “Have nothing to do with that righteous man, for I have suffered much over him today in a dream.”
Again what were the details of the dream?
We don't know. But as she suffered much over him it sounds like a traumatic dream.

Those dreams were definite details and not image puzzles that needed third party interpretation.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Greeting Paul, this might help,
Deuteronomy 13:1 "If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
Deuteronomy 13:2 "And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
Deuteronomy 13:3 "Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul".
hmmmmmmm...... you might want to read that again.


Deuteronomy 18:20 "But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Deuteronomy 18:21 "And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
Deuteronomy 18:22 "When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him".

so if you say in your heart, "How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?", do this,
A. 2 Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth".

B. Acts 17:11 "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so".

C. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good".

D. do all the above, but now inquire of the Holy Ghost of your finding, and do all the above with the Holy Ghost.

PICJAG.

I found the bit in your post very informative where the Lord proves us through the words of a false prophet, whether we will believe his words, or to seek the Lord for verification from Him, as the Bereans did. That gives me a valuable insight into why we as Christians are sometimes faced with experiences and supernatural happenings so that we will be motivated to seek the Lord for verification instead of just going along with them.

 

[101G]

I found the bit in your post very informative where the Lord proves us through the words of a false prophet, whether we will believe his words, or to seek the Lord for verification from Him, as the Bereans did. That gives me a valuable insight into why we as Christians are sometimes faced with experiences and supernatural happenings so that we will be motivated to seek the Lord for verification instead of just going along with them.

Paul, on point, it makes no differencr who it is, if they don't give scriptures so that you can discuss it with the Father, (the Holy Spirit), we use to have a TV commerical here long ago that said this about a certian ready made Fish dinner & sticks, "If it isn't Mrs Paul's throw it back". other words the other are not good enough.

so if a prophet is of God then his words can be tested by the words of God ... the bible. test a spirit by the Spirit.

that why we need to Study, NOT TO LEARN anything, no, but by studing, it shows God that you're intrested in his word, and he will give you the revelation. your Faith in God is powerful to even move mountians. as God himself said, "PROVE ME".


PICJAG

 

[DNB]

I found the bit in your post very informative where the Lord proves us through the words of a false prophet, whether we will believe his words, or to seek the Lord for verification from Him, as the Bereans did. That gives me a valuable insight into why we as Christians are sometimes faced with experiences and supernatural happenings so that we will be motivated to seek the Lord for verification instead of just going along with them.

Very interesting insight!

 

[Mungo]

Those dreams were definite details and not image puzzles that needed third party interpretation.

As I said before. You don't know that.
You don't know what the actual dream was; you only know the interpretation.

 

[DNB]

As I said before. You don't know that.
You don't know what the actual dream was; you only know the interpretation.

What do you mean that he doesn't know that? You can't tell the difference between a dream filled with symbolism and cryptic metaphors, as opposed to a clear and practical mandate from God?

Every single dream example that you quoted was, as @Paul Christensen said, definite details, not required to decipher. And every single example, from the Bible, that employs imagery and symbology, are always explained as such. The prophets are told that there are things pertaining to the future, that will remain obscure until those times. Can you not tell the difference?

But neither of the two above types of Biblical dreams cited above (1. clear, no deciphering required 2. obscure with some type of explanation), are what we're hearing from these frivolous and misguided dream-bearers of today.

 

[Mungo]

What do you mean that he doesn't know that? You can't tell the difference between a dream filled with symbolism and cryptic metaphors, as opposed to a clear and practical mandate from God?

Every single dream example that you quoted was, as @Paul Christensen said, definite details, not required to decipher. And every single example, from the Bible, that employs imagery and symbology, are always explained as such. The prophets are told that there are things pertaining to the future, that will remain obscure until those times. Can you not tell the difference?

But neither of the two above types of Biblical dreams cited above (1. clear, no deciphering required 2. obscure with some type of explanation), are what we're hearing from these frivolous and misguided dream-bearers of today.

You don't know that because the details of the dream are not given. You are only given what the person deduced from the dream - i.e. their interpretation.

 

[DNB]

You don't know that because the details of the dream are not given. You are only given what the person deduced from the dream - i.e. their interpretation.

I imagine that they go hand-in-hand. One thing that one has never read about in the Bible, during the Apostolic age, was that dreams were part of the gifts of the spirit.