do you KNOW the Lord

[mjrhealth]

Jhn 17:17, Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

It is He wasnt speaking about the bible, why are men so blind. A man may be blessed for His work when it is from the heart, it does not add a dot to your salvation, and will never justify you. which is what you seem to be doing to be justifed by your works, Like I said, go put that bible down and find the one who is the Truth He is not far from you if you look for Him. Wisdom, grace, mercy, revelation comes for God, not reading. Time is too short to play games with your life.

 

[Jay Ross]

It is not the aspect of being a Pharisee that leads me to want to be precise; but a desire to stay as close as possible to the truth.

Closer to whose truth? Yours? Or God's?

The person to whom you are speaking may not worship the Lord 24/7...so your question would be containing a lie within it.

Sorry, when does asking a question of a person if he does certain things like worshipping 'god" 24/7, a "lie" when it is up to the person, the question is being addressed, to to provide the answer to that question.

I doubt that many "Christians" are able to worship God 24/7 without failing or falling short in doing so.

The response from the person, if true, is not a lie, as God is a respecter of a person who tells the truth. How many Christians fall short in this area?

 

[amadeus]

It is He wasnt speaking about the bible, why are men so blind. A man may be blessed for His work when it is from the heart, it does not add a dot to your salvation, and will never justify you. which is what you seem to be doing to be justifed by your works, Like I said, go put that bible down and find the one who is the Truth He is not far from you if you look for Him. Wisdom, grace, mercy, revelation comes for God, not reading. Time is too short to play games with your life.

He was there all of the time. He is there all the time, but where it the eye salve so that we may see?

"I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see." Rev 3:18

 

[mailmandan]

Would you reference Bread of Life, Marymog, Philip James and the other Catholics on this site as your authority on what is true Catholic teaching? What about me, who is ex Catholic, would you consider me an authority on Catholicism? Those Catholics above would tell you to go to the source, not to trust in ex Catholics or even themselves. They would say, go to the catechism.

I too am an ex Catholic and you don't need to be an authority on Catholicism to understand what they teach about the plan of salvation. It's obvious to numerous believers who never attended the Roman Catholic church that Catholicism teaches salvation by faith and works.

Your quote above from that forum poster is a correct reflevtion of SDA teaching, but you are choosing to look at it through your bigoted perspective. He isn't saying grace plus law. He's saying grace and the law are inseparable. Thing is, you don't understand what that means. And you don't want to.

It's obvious to me what he's really teaching and it's also obvious to many ex Adventists that I've spoken with as well. It is what it is -- "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works."

You don't want to obey God's Commandments. You've already written them off and you have no intention of appreciating the intimate relationship between grace, law, obedience, and faith.

Typical straw man argument made by SDA's. I have not written off God's commandments in the new testament for believers and I am not under old covenant law. I also understand the difference between grace and law, obedience and faith. SDA's mix it all together to create salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works.

Just to make it abundantly and absolutely clear. No where. Not in one instance, any where in any Adventist official writing... Not in Ellen White's numerous books or articles, not in any of the books or articles written by the any of the pioneers of adventism, will you find one statement anywhere suggesting even remotely that any person is justified by obeying God's commandments. Not one.

Hmm.. Brother Anderson, who was a member of the SDA Church for 33 years had this to say about SDA's and Ellen G White. So it's not just me. ;)

5. Adventism tends towards legalism
SDAs place a lot of emphasis on obeying the Ten Commandments, particularly the Fourth Commandment. Their whole end-time eschatology is built upon a great, cosmic conflict that is being played out before the entire universe, and the battle lines have been drawn over the Sabbath Commandment. The conflict over the Sabbath is the final conflict between good and evil, and it is the separating wall that divides "loyal" Christians from "disloyal" Christians. With all this emphasis being placed upon the law, it is no wonder that SDAs have a tendency to get bogged down in legalism.

Mrs. White adds to the problem with some of her legalistic statements such as these:

"...The terms of salvation for every son and daughter of Adam are here outlined. It is plainly stated that the condition of gaining eternal life is obedience to the commandments of God". "To obey the commandments of God is the only way to obtain His favor." "He [man] must be reconciled to God through obedience to His law..."

Ellen White

Here's quote from Ellen White...
And now, having spoken plainly of the fulfillment of familiar prophecies concerning the Messiah, Paul preached unto them repentance and the remission of sin through the merits of Jesus their Saviour. "Be it known unto you," he said, "that through this Man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: and by Him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses." AA 172.2

Did Ellen G White believe that that the 10 commandments were a part of the law of Moses? Is that how she tried to "get around" Acts 13:39? I often hear people who teach salvation by faith and works (yet deny they teach works salvation) try to "get around" Ephesians 2:8,9 by stating Paul was teaching we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works, which is still works salvation.

And yet the Apostles Paul says
KJV Romans 2:13
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

So. Seeing you have pronounced yourself so learned in Adventist teaching, let us see if you can harmonize these seeming contractictory statements.

How about a little context. Paul was talking to the Jews (continue to read on in Romans 2:17-24) about their judging of the Gentiles and then points them to their own law (standard of judgment) and hypocrisy and tells them that the doers of the law will be justified before God (v. 13) which leaves them out, along with everyone else. (Romans 3:22-28; Galatians 2:16) The standard they wanted to measure up to was the law. Paul was telling them that the doers of the law will be justified. So, obey the law, all of it, but if you don’t obey all of it, you have failed! He tells them that the Gentiles who didn't have the law according to the knowledge of the Jews were instinctively doing the things of the law (verse 14) and will be judged accordingly.

Paul was showing the self-righteous Jews who judged the Gentiles that they were not able to measure up to the perfect standard of the law. They were hypocrites. This is why Paul tells us in the very next chapter in Romans 3:28 that we are justified by faith apart from the works of the law. No one was able to perfectly obey the law (except for Jesus Christ). If you fail even once (stumble in one point), then you become guilty of all. James 2:10, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all."

Galatians 3:10, For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them." The Jews can be justified before God by keeping the Law, but he or she has to be 100% perfect. A person cannot fail, not even once. But all have failed (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 6:23) and that is why man is justified before God by faith in Christ alone and not by the works of the law. (Romans 3:24-28, 4:2-6; 5:1)

 

[Brakelite]

Gal_3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Exactly, amen. And the result of that faith through the grace of God, they become "doers of the law". They dont become justified by doing the law, but if you are looking for people who are justified, look for doers of the law.

 

[Brakelite]

I too am an ex Catholic and you don't need to be an authority on Catholicism to understand what they teach about the plan of salvation. It's obvious to numerous believers who never attended the Roman Catholic church that Catholicism teaches salvation by faith and works.

It's obvious to me what he's really teaching and it's also obvious to many ex Adventists that I've spoken with as well. It is what it is -- "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works."

Typical straw man argument made by SDA's. I have not written off God's commandments in the new testament for believers and I am not under old covenant law. I also understand the difference between grace and law, obedience and faith. SDA's mix it all together to create salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works.

Hmm.. Brother Anderson, who was a member of the SDA Church for 33 years had this to say about SDA's and Ellen G White. So it's not just me. ;)

5. Adventism tends towards legalism
SDAs place a lot of emphasis on obeying the Ten Commandments, particularly the Fourth Commandment. Their whole end-time eschatology is built upon a great, cosmic conflict that is being played out before the entire universe, and the battle lines have been drawn over the Sabbath Commandment. The conflict over the Sabbath is the final conflict between good and evil, and it is the separating wall that divides "loyal" Christians from "disloyal" Christians. With all this emphasis being placed upon the law, it is no wonder that SDAs have a tendency to get bogged down in legalism.

Mrs. White adds to the problem with some of her legalistic statements such as these:

"...The terms of salvation for every son and daughter of Adam are here outlined. It is plainly stated that the condition of gaining eternal life is obedience to the commandments of God". "To obey the commandments of God is the only way to obtain His favor." "He [man] must be reconciled to God through obedience to His law..."

Ellen White

Did Ellen G White believe that that the 10 commandments were a part of the law of Moses? Is that how she tried to "get around" Acts 13:39? I often hear people who teach salvation by faith and works (yet deny they teach works salvation) try to "get around" Ephesians 2:8,9 by stating Paul was teaching we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works, which is still works salvation.


How about a little context. Paul was talking to the Jews (continue to read on in Romans 2:17-24) about their judging of the Gentiles and then points them to their own law (standard of judgment) and hypocrisy and tells them that the doers of the law will be justified before God (v. 13) which leaves them out, along with everyone else. (Romans 3:22-28; Galatians 2:16) The standard they wanted to measure up to was the law. Paul was telling them that the doers of the law will be justified. So, obey the law, all of it, but if you don’t obey all of it, you have failed! He tells them that the Gentiles who didn't have the law according to the knowledge of the Jews were instinctively doing the things of the law (verse 14) and will be judged accordingly.

Paul was showing the self-righteous Jews who judged the Gentiles that they were not able to measure up to the perfect standard of the law. They were hypocrites. This is why Paul tells us in the very next chapter in Romans 3:28 that we are justified by faith apart from the works of the law. No one was able to perfectly obey the law (except for Jesus Christ). If you fail even once (stumble in one point), then you become guilty of all. James 2:10, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all."

Galatians 3:10, For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them." The Jews can be justified before God by keeping the Law, but he or she has to be 100% perfect. A person cannot fail, not even once. But all have failed (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 6:23) and that is why man is justified before God by faith in Christ alone and not by the works of the law. (Romans 3:24-28, 4:2-6; 5:1)

You are correct in much of what you have presented here, including the historic fact that Adventists have tended toward legalism. You are also correct in citing Paul as saying that no-one has ever kept God's commandments, which after all is why the plan of salvation was undertaken right? It's why we all need a Saviour. The question we need to answer or clarify, is , what are we saved from? Certainly we are saved from the eternal consequences of sin. We are saved from eternal death, and by grace, granted eternal life, and Praise God for that. But is that all? Is that all we are saved from? Just the consequence of sin?

 

[justbyfaith]

It is He wasnt speaking about the bible,

He was indeed speaking about the Bible.

which is what you seem to be doing to be justifed by your works,

I know that I am not justified by my works.

Closer to whose truth? Yours? Or God's?

God's...and He has revealed it to me so that it is truth that I also own.

Sorry, when does asking a question of a person if he does certain things like worshipping 'god" 24/7, a "lie" when it is up to the person, the question is being addressed, to to provide the answer to that question.

I doubt that many "Christians" are able to worship God 24/7 without failing or falling short in doing so.

The response from the person, if true, is not a lie, as God is a respecter of a person who tells the truth. How many Christians fall short in this area?

If the person is not worshiping God 24/7, it is a lie to ask them how their relationship is with the God that they worship 24/7.

 

[mjrhealth]

Exactly, amen. And the result of that faith through the grace of God, they become "doers of the law". They dont become justified by doing the law, but if you are looking for people who are justified, look for doers of the law.

No, you look for those in Christ... Being in Church will save no man, only being in Christ will.

Rom_3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

All those works are to no end but yours.

 

[justbyfaith]

No one was able to perfectly obey the law (except for Jesus Christ).

Even Jesus Christ did not keep the letter of the law perfectly. For He brake the sabbath (John 5:16-18).

But as it is now, so it was for Jesus then. Even as it is with us, so it was with Him.

Those who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in them (Romans 8:4).

It is not the letter of the law that we are bound by; but rather we have become obedient to the spirit of the law as born again Christians (Romans 7:6).

Now when you say (rightly) that if we fail at even one point of the law we are guilty of breaking all of it; and that because of this, all those who are of the law are under the curse: yet I would teach at this venture that those who have been forgiven of every sin through the blood of Jesus Christ have been given the Holy Ghost and the love of the Holy Ghost; and that through this love the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in those who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4). And also that it is possible to walk consistently according to the Spirit. Not that you would be justified by that; but you would be justified by His blood (Romans 5:9).

The only reason why I think we would be motivated to live righteously, is, not for justification's sake (because justification is forgiveness through Christ's shed blood); but for the sake of having a clear conscience. For Paul teaches us what is the attitude of anyone who is born again (or on the way to being born again) who is living a Romans 7:14-25 lifestyle; that he is discontented with a lifestyle of sinning (Romans 7:24). Therefore the answer of a good conscience towards God is to enter into a lifestyle of sanctification and to begin living holy.

 

[mjrhealth]

He was indeed speaking about the Bible.

No HE was not, you cant walk away from your Idol can, you. The bible wasnt even written. His words that come from His mouth are life to those who hear them, the letter, even of the law, even of the bible brings death. Just look at all who like you, who read it than use it to enslave and deceive others, Jesus never sen the Holy Spirit to teach any man the bible He sent Him to teach you the truth, and for as long as you neglect Him who is the truth, you will never be free, the Truth is in Him alone. But you wont listen just like so many, and time is fast running out.

 

[justbyfaith]

No HE was not, you cant walk away from your Idol can, you. The bible wasnt even written. His words that come from His mouth are life to those who hear them, the letter, even of the law, even of the bible brings death. Just look at all who like you, who read it than use it to enslave and deceive others, Jesus never sen the Holy Spirit to teach any man the bible He sent Him to teach you the truth, and for as long as you neglect Him who is the truth, you will never be free, the Truth is in Him alone. But you wont listen just like so many, and time is fast running out.

Jesus said that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth (John 16:13). This promise was at the very least to the apostle Peter.

Now, Peter substantiated Paul's writings as holy scripture in 2 Peter 3:15-16.

And Paul wrote that all scripture is inspired by the Lord and profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness in 2 Timothy 3:16.

You even, often, quote a scripture that says that the scriptures testify of Jesus.

How is it, then, that you are not willing to accept the testimony that testifies of Jesus Christ in all of scripture?

Jesus said, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me) to do thy will, O God (Psalms 40:7, Hebrews 10:7).

So, when Jesus says that the scriptures testify about Him, He is saying that all of scripture testifies about Him.

The Bible is God's word...and that is the bottom line.

If you reject anything that is in God's word, you are hardening your heart against the truth...also the bottom line.

Heb 3:7, Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

Heb 3:12, Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13, But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14, For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 3:15, While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Heb 4:7, Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

You may say all you want that the sword that I hold in my hand (the sword of the Spirit, Ephesians 6:17) isn't sharp...I am not inclined to argue with you about the sharpness of my sword. My best way of convincing you is to stick you with it.

Heb 4:12, For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 

[Brakelite]

No, you look for those in Christ

How do you know them when you meet them? By their fruits right? They are recognised by their works... It us by their works that Christians are judged.

 

[justbyfaith]

you cant walk away from your Idol can, you.

An idol is a graven image.

The Bible is words written on paper.

Next...............

 

[mjrhealth]

How do you know them when you meet them? By their fruits right? They are recognised by their works... It us by their works that Christians are judged.

You want to be judged by your works go right ahead, you have already set yourself a death sentence...

This what you want to be a part of

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

But this is what you are asking for.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

What was it He said. I set before you life and death , choose life....

Blind men following blind men, that pit is waiting.

 

[mjrhealth]

An idol is a graven image.

The Bible is words written on paper.

Next...............

yes that is what is it, an idol to far to many. Dried ink on paper

Joh_5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

He was right when He said, no one wants Him.

 

[justbyfaith]

yes that is what is it, an idol to far to many. Dried ink on paper

Joh_5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

He was right when He said, no one wants Him.

I know that I have come to Him; and the fact that I hold the Bible to be the inspired and inerrant word of God (in the kjv) does not make that any different.

The fact that you do not may mean that you do not have a relationship with Him, however.

If you do not believe that He is the great I AM, you will die in your sins (John 8:24).

 

[mjrhealth]

Jesus said that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth (John 16:13). This promise was at the very least to the apostle Peter.

That was for all men, He didnt send Him to teach you the bible... I read the bible therefore I am right, and you can see how wrong so many bible bashers are. And because of that few put Christ first, and so end up all in there own wisdom and understanding blind as bats.

 

[mjrhealth]

I know that I have come to Him; and the fact that I hold the Bible to be the inspired and inerrant word of God (in the kjv) does not make that any different.

It does, because if you knew Him you would see all the errors, but because you made it an Idol you wont, you cant because than you dont have your safety blanket to lean on, He is supposed to be that.

 

[justbyfaith]

I find that in seeking to reconcile all of the apparent contradictions, I have found greater insight into what the Bible really teaches.

You should try it.

 

[justbyfaith]

That was for all men, He (Jesus) didnt send him (Peter) <fify> to teach you the bible...

Peter, through the Holy Ghost, gave us words that are in conjunction with the Holy Spirit guiding Peter into all truth. The Bible.

Because Peter substantiated Paul in 2 Peter 3:15-16; and Paul substantiated the rest of scripture in 2 Timothy 3:16.

That was for all men, He (the Father and Jesus) didn't send Him (the Holy Ghost) to teach you the bible...

Indeed He did...

Jhn 16:13, Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1Jo 2:20, But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

1Jo 2:27, But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.