Do you believe Spirit baptism replaces water baptism?

[LoveofTruth]

Not a single verse you cite eliminate obedience from salvation, such would contradict 2 Thess 1:8 that logically requires one to OBEY to not be in flaming fire. Rom 4 eliminated the flawless works required by the OT law from justifying Abraham and Eph 2:8 eliminate works of merit men could baost about from saving men but no verse eliminates obedience to God's will hence no verse speaks of the disobedient/unrighteous, rebellious being saved.

Jesus reminded t

THE SUBJECT OF WATER BAPTISM IN THE NEW TESTAMENT IS NOT... ABOUT THE OLD COVENANT WASHINGS, NOR IS THE ACTUAL ACT OF WATER BAPTISM SHOWN TO BE A REPLACEMENT... FOR CHRIST'S BLOOD SHED UPON HIS CROSS FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS! YOU ARE INTENTIONALLY MISLEADING THOSE IN CHRIST JESUS!

The believers in Acts 1 were reminded that John baptized with water but they would be baptized with the Holy Ghost. This was again reminded to Peter in Acts 11 we see when he was going over what happened with the Gentiles. This shows that Peter was still practicing Johns water baptism in some form or adding Johns water to the baptism into Jesus Christ or even still following the Jewish custom of baptizing Gentile converts from way back.. Peter also was following the law in dietary things and I believe it can be shown he followed still the Halakah law of the Jews, the customs. We see many thousands of Jewish believers still under the law and customs and zealous for them including James and the elders of the church of Jerusalem in Acts 21. The definitely were still doing this for a long time after Christ death. So we see even Paul circumcising Timothy in Acts 16. But not allowing Titus a Gentile to be circumcised. This shows that there was a time of reformation and transition allowed for the Jews, but the Gentiles did not need to do this. When Peter water baptized the gentile s in Acts 10 he was questioning it, they were already saved and had been given the Holy Ghost gift. Then in Acts 15 the issue of the Gentiles keeping the law and being circumcised to be saved came up and a heated discussion followed. It was agreed that the gentiles did not need to follow the law or be circumcised. But we see many thousands of Jewish BELIEVERS still zealous of the law and customs and under the law in Acts 21. They even sacrificed animals. Paul was also going along with it. This shows that Paul seemed to either condescend to the weakness and lack of knowledge they had or he was also carried away with their dissimilation, or he understood the transition they were going through and was being patient with them.

Also I do not believe the Baptism with water or the baptism with the Holy Ghost is the one baptism that saves. It is the baptism into Jesus Christ by the Spirit that saves them, when we are immersed (baptized) into Jesus Christ and put on Christ, this is when they have Jesus Christ in them though faith, Jesus will then baptize them with the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is given in different ways, we see the Holy Ghost falling on believers as they pray and seek God and ask and through laying on of hands by elders and apostles and men are told to seek spiritual gifts etc.

Nowhere in the NT do we ever read that these gifts have ceased for today. If you think so show me the verses. Also the apostles and prophets did not cease to be given to the church either. We see them after Christ rose again in the New testament. They are for the church as Ephesians 4:10,11 shows.

You are not correct in these things. I eagerly wait for you to show scripture for your assumptions here. And to answer why thousands of believing Jews sacrificed animals still and kept the law being under the law in Acts 21 and the customs of the Jews?

Also what do you think was meant by Paul when he said that he had the gospel of the uncircumcised and Peter had the gospel of the circumcised in Galatians 2?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Nowhere ever did Paul eliminate obedience from becoming saved, Rom 6:16-18 Paul required obedience to God in becoming saved but did not require works of merit (Eph 2:9) or works of the OT law (Rom 4:5) to becoming saved. Faith is DEAD apart from obedience to God and that is why there is not a single example on NT salvation by belief alone, that is, belief apart from doing God's will in repenting of sins, confessing with the moth and submitting to water baptism.

Faith onlyists miss the mark by refusing to accept that obedience to God and works of merit are two completely different things. For instance, they quote Rom 4:5 out of context, isolating that verse from all other verses and CLAIM that verse eliminates all works of all kinds while never proving that interpretation or clearing up all the contradictions that interpretation creates.

Romans 4:3 says,

“For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.”​

Read the example of believing God’s Word says in Romans 4:3. It was Abraham. Abraham came long before the Laws of Moses. The example given is in Genesis of the kind of belief he was to have (Whereby it was counted to him as righteousness).

Genesis 15:2-6

“And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.”​

So Abraham believed God in regards that he would have a child and he believed the promise that his descendants would be like the stars of the sky. This belief alone was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. This is the example given in Romans 4 that a person cannot deny. Romans 4:3 asks the question, What saith Scripture? Pointing to this very event in Genesis 15.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Romans 4:3 says,
“For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.”

Read the example of Abraham believing God given in Romans 4:3. It was Abraham. Abraham came long before the Laws of Moses. The example given is in Genesis of the kind of belief he was to have (Whereby it was counted to him as righteousness).

Genesis 15:2-6
“And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.”

So Abraham believed God in regards that he would have a child and he believed the promise that his descendants would be like the stars of the sky. This belief alone was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. This is the example given in Romans 4 that a person cannot deny. Romans 4:3 asks the question, What saith Scripture? Pointing to this very event in Genesis 15.

We are in a race of trust to actually believe all God has said and promised. It is the obedience of trust He is looking for. That trust is the way to all we desire and hunger for.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Ernest T. Bass

Granted, Romans 4:3 is not an example of Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism (Which is falsely taught in popular Christianity today). Romans 4:3 is dealing with how to get saved initially by God’s grace through faith without works. Romans 4:3 is dealing with a particular point in time or an event in our lives that glorifies God’s grace (and or if we messed up on rare occasion, we have His grace to go to through confessing our sins to Jesus Christ). But the Church of Christ and the Catholic Church does not allow for this. There is never a profound moment (or profound moments) of glorifying God’s grace in a believer’s life. It becomes works alone and no grace ever. Yes, we do need to bring forth works as a part of God’s plan of salvation afterwards (Because faith without works is dead - James 2:17), but this only after we are saved by God’s grace through faith without works. This is where many get tripped up either believing in “Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism” (Hyper Grace or Partial Hyper Grace), or in their believing in “Works Alone Salvationism” (that actually is a nullification of God’s grace). A person needs to have a healthy balance of between God’s grace through faith (without works) (Ephesians , and the Sanctification of the Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:13) (Which is all a part of God’s plan of salvation).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We are in a race of trust to actually believe all God has said and promised. It is the obedience of trust He is looking for. That trust is the way to all we desire and hunger for.

I believe the Bible teaches that faith starts off as a belief alone, but it does not remain that way. Hebrews 11 gives us an example of a belief alone, and it also gives us many examples of how faith is doing something (that the LORD said for men of God to do), as well.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I believe the Bible teaches that faith starts off as a belief alone, but it does not remain that way. Hebrews 11 gives us an example of a belief alone, and it also gives us many examples of how faith is doing something (that the LORD said for men of God to do), as well.

Yes. In fact, it is only through trust that we actually DO come to fulfill the law.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes. In fact, it is only through trust that we actually DO come to fulfill the law.

I believe that when Paul spoke of the Law or works in a generic sense in a negative way, he was referring to the 613 Laws of Moses. For example: Paul says we are not under the Law (Romans 6:14). I take this to mean the many Laws of Moses. For Acts 15 says that the Gentiles do not have to keep the Law of Moses. The Jerusalem council in Acts 15 also explains the heresy of what I call, “Circumcision Salvationism” (Which was going on around at that time - which explains Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, etcetera). Acts 13:39 says we cannot be justified by the Law of Moses. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. Yet, Paul was not lawless. Paul says he is not without the Law of God seeing he is under the Law of Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21). Romans 8:4 talks about how we fulfill the righteousness of the Law by walking after the Spirit. I see the “righteousness of the Law” as the righteous aspect or part of the Law as the fruits of the Spirit (the Law written in our hearts for the New Covenant - Galatians 5:22-23, Hebrews 10:16), and I see it as loving our neighbor - which fulfills the righteous aspect or portion of the Old Law like: Do not steal, do not murder, etcetera (See: Romans 13:8-10).

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

@Ernest T. Bass

Granted, Romans 4:3 is not an example of Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism (Which is falsely taught in popular Christianity today). Romans 4:3 is dealing with how to get saved initially by God’s grace through faith without works. Romans 4:3 is dealing with a particular point in time or an event in our lives that glorifies God’s grace (and or if we messed up on rare occasion, we have His grace to go to through confessing our sins to Jesus Christ). But the Church of Christ and the Catholic Church does not allow for this. There is never a profound moment (or profound moments) of glorifying God’s grace in a believer’s life. It becomes works alone and no grace ever. Yes, we do need to bring forth works as a part of God’s plan of salvation afterwards (Because faith without works is dead - James 2:17), but this only after we are saved by God’s grace through faith without works. This is where many get tripped up either believing in “Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism” (Hyper Grace or Partial Hyper Grace), or in their believing in “Works Alone Salvationism” (that actually is a nullification of God’s grace). A person needs to have a healthy balance of between God’s grace through faith (without works) (Ephesians , and the Sanctification of the Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:13) (Which is all a part of God’s plan of salvation).

Rom 4:5 does not teach justification by faith alone nor justification by perpetual faith alone.

Faith onlyist will NEVER produce a verse that teaches salvation apart from obedience to God's will.

Salvation is by God's grace and man's obedience...only those who obey are the recipients of grace. Therefore salvation is not by grace alone nor by obedience alone.

The context leading up t Rom 4:5 is Paul has proven both Jew and Gentile (Romans chpts 1&2) are sinners and sinners are in need of justification.

In Romans 3 Paul tells us from this chapter what does not justify and what does justify. Paul begins the chapter about the OT law that was given to the Jews and was an advantage to the Jew (Rom 3:1-2) but the problem with that OT law is it could not justify the sinner. That OT law required the Jew to do the wok of flawless, perfect law keeping to be justified by that law, yet the Jew could not keep the law perfectly leaving him unjustified by the law.
Paul then says in v21 "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;"

Paul here is saying there is another way "without the law" to be made righteousness, that is, there is another way to be justified apart from the perfect flawless works required by the OT law and that way has been made known (in the NT gospel) and was witnessed by the prophets (this other way to justify men without the OT law was prophesied in the OT).

In v22 Paul tells us what that other way is that can justify without the OT law and its required works of flawless law keeping:
"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:"

That other way to justify sinners without the OT and its required work of flawless law keeping is justification by faith in Jesus Christ. Faith in anyone else or faith by itself cannot justify. Note Paul NEVER said "faith alone" men as Luther ADDED the word 'alone" to the context perverting the context.

Hence the contrast Paul is making in Rom 3, he is contrast works of flawless law keeping required to be justified by that OT law versus an obedient faith. Note the contrast in v28 when Paul concludes "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law".

Note again the contrast Paul makes is between faith that can justify the sinner versus those deeds required of the OT law in perfect flawless law keeping.

The only work Paul mentions in this context that cannot justify the sinner is the perfect flawless works the OT required for the Jew to be justified by that law. Paul did not here nor ever omit a faithful obedience to God's will from justification.

Romans 4, Paul uses two people the Jews would know well, Abraham and David, and show how neither were justified by works of the OT law but instead justified by an obedient faith.

When Rom 4:5 says Abraham "worketh not" means he did not find justification by working to keep the OT law perfectly, he did not even live under that OT law of Moses Rom 4:9-10. "Worketh not" in the context does not, cannot eliminate all works....it cannot eliminate obedience because Abraham did do works of obedience (Heb 11:8,17). Likewise with Daivd. David unlike Abraham did live under that OT law but he was not justified by it for he did not work in keeping it perfectly, he sinned. But he was justified by an obedient faith..."Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." Who are the ones whose iniquities are forgiven and sins covered??? the disobedient? NO!!! God forgives the obedient man as David was obedient repenting of his sins he committed and God covered his sins.

Again, NOWHERE in the context of Romans chapters 1-4 did Paul eliminate obedience from justification, the only work he eliminated was the perfect flawless work of law keeping the OT required to be justified by that law. In Romans 6:16-18 Paul put obedience BEFORE justification...they obeyed from the heart, then they were freed from sin/justified. Having gone to great time and length to point out the context of Romans 1-4, the faith onlyist will continue to ignore context and wrongly claim Rom 4:5 eliminates all works including obedience to God's will.

 

[Davy]

Jesus reminded t

The believers in Acts 1 were reminded that John baptized with water but they would be baptized with the Holy Ghost. This was again reminded to Peter in Acts 11 we see when he was going over what happened with the Gentiles. This shows that Peter was still practicing Johns water baptism in some form or adding Johns water to the baptism into Jesus Christ or even still following the Jewish custom of baptizing Gentile converts from way back.. Peter also was following the law in dietary things and I believe it can be shown he followed still the Halakah law of the Jews, the customs. We see many thousands of Jewish believers still under the law and customs and zealous for them including James and the elders of the church of Jerusalem in Acts 21. The definitely were still doing this for a long time after Christ death. So we see even Paul circumcising Timothy in Acts 16. But not allowing Titus a Gentile to be circumcised. This shows that there was a time of reformation and transition allowed for the Jews, but the Gentiles did not need to do this. When Peter water baptized the gentile s in Acts 10 he was questioning it, they were already saved and had been given the Holy Ghost gift. Then in Acts 15 the issue of the Gentiles keeping the law and being circumcised to be saved came up and a heated discussion followed. It was agreed that the gentiles did not need to follow the law or be circumcised. But we see many thousands of Jewish BELIEVERS still zealous of the law and customs and under the law in Acts 21. They even sacrificed animals. Paul was also going along with it. This shows that Paul seemed to either condescend to the weakness and lack of knowledge they had or he was also carried away with their dissimilation, or he understood the transition they were going through and was being patient with them.

Also I do not believe the Baptism with water or the baptism with the Holy Ghost is the one baptism that saves. It is the baptism into Jesus Christ by the Spirit that saves them, when we are immersed (baptized) into Jesus Christ and put on Christ, this is when they have Jesus Christ in them though faith, Jesus will then baptize them with the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is given in different ways, we see the Holy Ghost falling on believers as they pray and seek God and ask and through laying on of hands by elders and apostles and men are told to seek spiritual gifts etc.

Nowhere in the NT do we ever read that these gifts have ceased for today. If you think so show me the verses. Also the apostles and prophets did not cease to be given to the church either. We see them after Christ rose again in the New testament. They are for the church as Ephesians 4:10,11 shows.

You are not correct in these things. I eagerly wait for you to show scripture for your assumptions here. And to answer why thousands of believing Jews sacrificed animals still and kept the law being under the law in Acts 21 and the customs of the Jews?

Also what do you think was meant by Paul when he said that he had the gospel of the uncircumcised and Peter had the gospel of the circumcised in Galatians 2?

You are STILL... trying to equate water baptism under The New Covenant with the old covenant ritual washings. THAT WILL NOT WORK.

Those who believe on Jesus Christ are to be water baptized just as the New Testament Scriptures commanded, and that I have shown. ANYWHERE you read about the command or even DESIRE to be water baptized (like the eunuch) and it is AFTER Christ's death and resurrection, that is PER The New Covenant, not the old!

Thus you are grossly confused with your attempt to preach against water baptism.

 

[Raccoon1010]

The shear fact of the matter is that even those that received the Holy Spirit before baptism were commanded to be baptized in water. So do we follow the commandments and the bible or don't we?

Acts 10:47-48

English Standard Version


47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Romans 4:3 says,

“For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.”​

Read the example of believing God’s Word says in Romans 4:3. It was Abraham. Abraham came long before the Laws of Moses. The example given is in Genesis of the kind of belief he was to have (Whereby it was counted to him as righteousness).

Genesis 15:2-6

“And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.”​

So Abraham believed God in regards that he would have a child and he believed the promise that his descendants would be like the stars of the sky. This belief alone was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. This is the example given in Romans 4 that a person cannot deny. Romans 4:3 asks the question, What saith Scripture? Pointing to this very event in Genesis 15.

Abraham did not have faith only, he faith included obedience in leaving his house land and kindred and offering Isaac, Heb 11:8,17). No one including Abraham can be made righteous in disobeying God. Abraham was already in a save covenant relationship with God prior to Gen 15...Abraham was 'of God' Gen 14:19 and the words of Gen 15:1 would not be said of a lost, unbelieving, unforgiven, reprobate.

Paul speaks about righteousness of faith in Romans and Abraham had an obedient faith in Gen 12 as proven by his obedience in moving from his home, land to a place God would show him. Therefore he was already seen righteous by God in Gen 12 by his faith in obeying God.

Abraham being made righteous was a process not something that happen at one moment in time in Gen 15:6 apart from him being obedient. The process began in Gen 12 and went to Gen 22 when he offered Isaac, God said " now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." God did NOT say 'now I know" in Gen 12 or Gen 15 but not until Abraham passed the final test in offering Isaac. This is why James 2:21 points to Abraham offering Isaac as to when Abraham was justified.."NOW I know" in Gen 22 NOT Gen 15 for God did not "know" in Gen 15. God foreknew what Abraham would do, but God did not "know" in the sense until Abraham actually did obey Him. And it was not until Abraham obeyed that God "knew".

Note also in Rom 4:3 Paul refers to Gen 15:6 in saying Abraham's faith was counted as righteous. In Rom 4:22 Abraham's faith was reckoned righteous again and this verse refers to Gen 17 some 15 years after Gen 15:6 when Abraham was about 100 years old. Hence Abraham's faith was reckoned righteous more than once for it was a process he went thru to be justified beginning in Gen 12 to Gen 22. He would not have been justified by God had he disobeyed God at any time between Gen 12 and Gen 12.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Jesus said,
“The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.” (John 6:63).

Newspapers, magazines, and or novels are not words that are spirit and words that are life.

Man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word of God.
So the Word of God and secular writings are not in even in the same ballpark.
The Bible is a spiritual book that requires spiritual understanding by the Spirit.

No verse in the NT says one must be acted on in some miraculous way by God or the HS first before one is able to understand God's word. Such would make God culpable for those who cannot understand and respecter of persons of those whom He acts upon to give them the ability to understand versus those He does not act upon. So of course if one can read a newspaper and understand it, then one can read the Bible also and understand it using the same brain/understanding/thinking each man has been given by God.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I see Acts 19:1-7 as referring to how Paul water baptized the disciples of John. I believe that when Paul was about to submerge them in the water, the Spirit first came upon them and they prophesied. They received the Spirit before being water baptized (Just like with Cornelius and his household). But I am not arguing against water baptism. Believers must partake of water baptism as a part of living out their faith.

Faith is how we gain access to God’s grace (Romans 5:2).
So a believer should in time seek to be water baptized in the name of Jesus.

I believe the one baptism in Ephesians 4:5 is water baptism.
But that does not mean there is not a baptism that God does upon all believers, though (i.e. a baptism into the body of Christ by the Spirit and a change of their heart, and desires). I believe a person can be saved by God’s grace in the faith they have without water baptism in some cases (either not knowing about it, or they are trying to find the right believers to baptize them), and in other cases I can see this as a problem if they are refusing to be baptized because they think it is optional, not required, or they simply rebellious (i.e. Hyper Grace).

I see Ephesians 4:5 as in context to what we must do and not what God does for us. So Ephesians 4:5 is water baptism (because the context supports the conclusion of what we must do - instead of the context focusing on what God does for us).

The Bible says ONE baptism but you claim "that does not mean there is not a baptism that God does upon all believers" which would be TWO baptism, not one. Your argument dies due to mathematics also.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Rom 4:5 does not teach justification by faith alone nor justification by perpetual faith alone.

The term “Faith Alone” is tied to Protestantism. So most Protestant churches hold to what I would personally would call…
“Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism” because they speak against James 2:17, and James 2:24. They see only a belief alone as being salvific throughout the whole of the Christian life when that is not the case in our Sanctification (Galatians 6:8-9).

I believe in what I call, “Temporal Faith Alone Salvationism” in that it only exists when we first are saved INITIALLY saved by God’s grace.
Whether or not you agree with my term or not does not matter. It simply is what I believe the Bible teaches. So when you speak of what I believe, please use this term instead when addressing my belief (Unless you simply don’t care to get people’s stated beliefs correct). Granted, I know some people are illogical and they don’t want to be called Calvinists when they are one (By their acceptance of the points of Calvinism), and so I get it when this rule may not always apply.

Faith onlyist will NEVER produce a verse that teaches salvation apart from obedience to God's will.

Nowhere did I say that obedience is not a part of being saved. I believe obedience to being saved by God’s grace through faith (without works) is obedience. When God tells us to believe a certain thing like say… 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (Which is a belief), and we end up believing this gospel message, then we are obeying God in regards to that part of the faith.

#1. Belief can be obedience and:
#2. Doing works of faith can also be obedience.

Salvation is by God's grace and man's obedience...only those who obey are the recipients of grace. Therefore salvation is not by grace alone nor by obedience alone.

Unless you believe aborted babies go to hell (like some Calvinists falsely believe), then you must conclude that God’s grace saves even without obedience. In other words, this is why Jesus was called the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. He takes away the sin of the world in the sense that he saves all babies who are ever born into this world. But when that baby grows up and becomes old enough to sin with knowledge of that sin, then that is when they are separated from God, and they need to be born again spiritually by being initially saved by God’s grace through faith (without works).

The context leading up t Rom 4:5 is Paul has proven both Jew and Gentile (Romans chpts 1&2) are sinners and sinners are in need of justification.

In Romans 3 Paul tells us from this chapter what does not justify and what does justify. Paul begins the chapter about the OT law that was given to the Jews and was an advantage to the Jew (Rom 3:1-2) but the problem with that OT law is it could not justify the sinner. That OT law required the Jew to do the wok of flawless, perfect law keeping to be justified by that law, yet the Jew could not keep the law perfectly leaving him unjustified by the law.
Paul then says in v21 "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;"

No. Grace through faith always saved even involving those who were under the Laws of Moses. David was under the Law of Moses and yet he sought forgiveness with God over his sins in Psalms 51. This is what you fail to grasp, my friend. God’s mercy and grace.

The Jews had wrongfully ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and MERCY (See: Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42).
This ties into Acts 15 that says that Gentile Christians were told about how they did not have to be circumcised to be saved (Because of a certain sect of Jews). I call this heresy “Circumcision Salvationism.” This means that if a person believed they had to first be circumcised in order to be INITIALLY Saved, then they would be making the Law or a work the foundation or basis of their salvation and not God’s grace. So keeping this in mind when we read Romans 3, it then becomes clear that Paul was arguing for the INITIAL aspect of salvation in how we need to first be saved by God’s grace and wipe out our past slate of sin and he was fighting against Works ALONE Salvationism (That sought to replace God’s grace).

Romans 3:21-22, and Romans 3:28 are all talking about faith in Jesus Christ which is separate from the Laws of Moses. Faith in Jesus to be saved was not something that was a part of the Laws of Moses, but there was grace and mercy. What makes the New Covenant unique is that Jesus came to take away the sins of the whole world. A person first believes in as their Savior Jesus Christ in their initial salvation (a process of salvation without works), and then they continue in their journey of faith with the Lord (Which then manifests itself with the work of faith). Paul here is focused on a person first getting saved and he is not referring to our continued salvation in Romans 3.

Paul NEVER said "faith alone" men as Luther ADDED the word 'alone" to the context perverting the context.

You are barking up the wrong tree. I am non-denominational, and I am not Protestant.
I am also not a fan of Luther, either. For if he said was true, he said he could sin a thousand times a day and be saved by the blood of the lamb (Which is clearly false).

Hence the contrast Paul is making in Rom 3, he is contrast works of flawless law keeping required to be justified by that OT law versus an obedient faith. Note the contrast in v28 when Paul concludes "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law".

Right because that was the Jew’s false twist on the Laws of Moses. That was never how it was supposed to be. Just reading the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee makes this fact evident (See: Luke 18:9-14).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Bible says ONE baptism but you claim "that does not mean there is not a baptism that God does upon all believers" which would be TWO baptism, not one. Your argument dies due to mathematics also.

Yes, there is one baptism we need to be concerned with.

That does not negate other types of baptisms described in the Bible.

Hebrews 6:2 says there are baptisms (plural).

Hebrews 6:2
“Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Abraham did not have faith only, he faith included obedience in leaving his house land and kindred and offering Isaac, Heb 11:8,17). No one including Abraham can be made righteous in disobeying God. Abraham was already in a save covenant relationship with God prior to Gen 15...Abraham was 'of God' Gen 14:19 and the words of Gen 15:1 would not be said of a lost, unbelieving, unforgiven, reprobate.

Paul speaks about righteousness of faith in Romans and Abraham had an obedient faith in Gen 12 as proven by his obedience in moving from his home, land to a place God would show him. Therefore he was already seen righteous by God in Gen 12 by his faith in obeying God.

Abraham being made righteous was a process not something that happen at one moment in time in Gen 15:6 apart from him being obedient. The process began in Gen 12 and went to Gen 22 when he offered Isaac, God said " now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." God did NOT say 'now I know" in Gen 12 or Gen 15 but not until Abraham passed the final test in offering Isaac. This is why James 2:21 points to Abraham offering Isaac as to when Abraham was justified.."NOW I know" in Gen 22 NOT Gen 15 for God did not "know" in Gen 15. God foreknew what Abraham would do, but God did not "know" in the sense until Abraham actually did obey Him. And it was not until Abraham obeyed that God "knew".

Note also in Rom 4:3 Paul refers to Gen 15:6 in saying Abraham's faith was counted as righteous. In Rom 4:22 Abraham's faith was reckoned righteous again and this verse refers to Gen 17 some 15 years after Gen 15:6 when Abraham was about 100 years old. Hence Abraham's faith was reckoned righteous more than once for it was a process he went thru to be justified beginning in Gen 12 to Gen 22. He would not have been justified by God had he disobeyed God at any time between Gen 12 and Gen 12.

I have heard this argument before. It’s not sound because it is simply a disbelief of Romans 4:3, and Genesis 15:2-6. While it is true that Abraham clearly did do “works of faith” before Genesis 15 (Which I am not denying), the “works of faith” done prior to Genesis 15 and after were NOT the example Paul made in relation to his point in Romans 4:3 that you are ignoring. Romans 4:3 is tied directly to Genesis 15:2-6 (with a special focus on verse 6). Abraham simply believed God on the promise and it was accounted to him as righteousness. This was the example that Paul was making in relation his point in Romans 4:3.

In the Christian life: Works of faith follow after being saved by God’s grace through faith without works.
Works of faith do play a part in our salvation in the Sanctification of the Spirit but this is only AFTER we are saved by God’s grace.
In good conscience, I don’t see how you can read verses like Titus 3:5 and also say that you are saved initially by a work of faith (like baptism).

 

[LoveofTruth]

Sorry, but you are clearly trying to delegate the New Testament commandment to be water baptized as being part of the 'old covenant' law. That's just NOT going to work.

Show me a New testament command to be water baptized. And I need you to be very specific and show me the word ""water" in that command. Remember Jesus told the believers in Acts 1 and reminded Peter after the gentiles came in that John baptized [past tense] with water. He was showing that water baptism belonged to specifically Johns baptism of the past . That was the old Testament program and it was a shadow and type of the spiritual reality. John said he must decrease and jesus increase. Johns whole ministry decreased or was suppose to. This is just as the entire Old Testament was to fade away and decay and it was ready to vanish. Nut even when the writer of Hebrews 8 said that the OT had not faded away yet. The Jewish believers were clearly still going to the temple, offering sacrifices for many years , circumcising Jewish believers (even Paul allowed this in Acts 16) , keeping the law zealously, and the Jewish customs and they had priest Levites etc etc. This was seen all through Acts. Johns water baptism was very close to the apostles and since they also were still under the Temple system and law in some regards, John's water baptism was not let go of either. Yes they defined the baptism in the name (character, power authority, virtue, life) of Jesus Christ, but they still added yjr water to it. To be baptized into Jesus Christ or in to Christ and the name of Jesus Christ is to be immersed into him. Jesus said he was in them and they in him in John 15. When we are all baptized into one body by the Spirit, this is the one baptism. For as many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. This is not water baptism. What we are baptized into or with is the baptism. To be baptized into Christ and out on Christ is not to be baptized into water and put on water. This is a deep spiritual truth and inward work. If all believers have this baptism, then that is the one baptism. The saving baptism of 1 Peter 3:21. And the eight souls were saved in the ark and raised up above the judgement of the water and brought through the water to the new ;and having Noah ( rest) in the ark with them. This typifies being in the rest of God in Christ and raised up to the heavenlies by the resurrection of Christ and our being risen with him with the answer ( inquiry) of a good conscience and a full assurance of hope, by the risen Lord and our faith in him and his work.

Mark 16:16
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.KJV

This does not say baptized in water. You assume the word water is there. You have not proven this was water. Jesus told the believers when he was talking about water and associated it with Johns past water baptism. This is not water baptism as I understand. In the previous verse we read what they were to believe and Jesus said,

16:15 "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

So the belief of the gospel is how we are saved as pPaul said here when Paul defines what he preached and the gospel for us in clarity. Notice paul does not add water baptism or circumcision, or Sabbaths, or the Mosaic law or the Lords supper or footwashing or traditions of men etc.

15:1 "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"(1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV)

This is the gospel. Notice very carefully there is no water baptism added to this gospel or any other carnal ordinances or diverse washings or sacrifices etc. To add to this gospel water baptism would be to make another gospel as I understand from scripture.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No verse in the NT says one must be acted on in some miraculous way by God or the HS first before one is able to understand God's word. Such would make God culpable for those who cannot understand and respecter of persons of those whom He acts upon to give them the ability to understand versus those He does not act upon. So of course if one can read a newspaper and understand it, then one can read the Bible also and understand it using the same brain/understanding/thinking each man has been given by God.

So what do you think Jesus meant when he said the following words?

“Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.” (Matthew 13:11).

Why did Jesus have to open the understanding on the Scriptures to the two men on the road to Emmaus if it was all up to them to just one day read it like a newspaper?

You are saying that there is no need for spiritual discernment?

What do you make of 1 Corinthians 2:14?
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

This verse above says that the natural man cannot know the the things of the Spirit of God.
They are spiritually discerned. Yet, you think all can read the Bible (a book of the Spirit of God) can be naturally discerned like all other natural books.

Also, keep in mind I am not a Calvinist. So I am not of the view that God is just going to let people to never know any level of truth to God’s Word at any point in their life. My point is that the Bible teaches we need an illumination from God in regards to His Word to understand it. If there is no Spirit convicting a person of their sins (which generally involves Scripture today), then they are never going to see or understand the Bible. God’s Word is living and active. God’s Word does not return void. The Bible is NOT like a newspaper, magazine, etcetera. One has to be born again by water (the Communicated Word of God) to truly have the spiritual understanding that the Bible is a special and spiritual book unlike any other.

Side Note:

In 1 John 2:27: Why did the believers need to have the Anointing whereby they did not need any man to teach them if it was so simple and easy to read the Scriptures or listen God’s words like a regular secular form of communication?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Mark 16:16
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
KJV

Jesus tells us that two things are needed to be saved, “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” Mark 16, 15, 16. We see first, what is offered to men, is the gospel. This gospel is defined in 1 Cor 15:1-4 as Paul showed, and this gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ according to the scriptures. When anyone believes this gospel and is baptized they shall be SAVED. We must therefore define what the baptism is here, because this is of vital importance.
One thing we know about the gospel Paul preached, is that he did not add water baptism to it 1 Cor 15:1-4. Therefore, this baptism spoken of by Jesus in Mark 16:16 must be something other than water baptism. To be saved we must believe and be baptized as Jesus said. This baptism he speaks of, is spoken of as the baptism into Christ (Galatians 3:27) and this takes place at new birth, this is how we are saved by His grace. Gods grace has been shown on the cross without us and his grace is given to us and in us through faith, “For by grace are ye saved through faith.” Ephesians 2:8). Grace being God’s working in us by his free gift and favour, and His Spirit, this saves us through faith.
This two fold aspect of “believe” and “be baptized” to be saved, is identical to being saved by “faith” and “grace”. This is revealed in many types in the old testament, one being the water crossings of Moses and Joshua. These two stories are a double type of the salvation in Christ.
In the story of Moses in Exodus we read , “And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD” Exodus 13;14, and this shows God’s work for us without us on the cross and we cannot save ourselves, they were told to stand still, no works which we have done. The work is of God for us. We must simply believe. This is similar to the bronze serpent on the pole, all those who were bit had to simply look unto the serpent on the pole and believe. Then an inward change was done and they were healed, and the sickness was gone. It was not works on their part, but by their faith. Then God did the inward work.by his grace.
In the Joshua crossing through the Jordan river we see the Ark of the covenant going in first and then the 12 stones taken and put into the river and then 12 stones taken out of the river and Joshua went with them into the land and to seek to defeat all the enemies. This is a type of the death burial and resurrection that we have with Christ, as the 12 stones went down into the Jordan river and 12 stones were taken up into the new land, typifying death burial and resurrection. The word Jordan meaning place of death descending? Joshua then goes with the people into the new land and to defeat all the enemies. This is similar to Christ in us and his work in us and as we walk in the spirit in the kingdom of God in our hearts by his grace. But these two fold aspects are needed, the faith part Gods work for us through Christ on the cross, no works but faith, and and the baptism into Christ part, the grace we enter into at new birth by faith.
So in Mark 16:16, the believing part is by faith, and the baptism part is by the grace of God at the new birth by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. We see this two fold aspect many times in scripture. For example Paul says in Romans ,” Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.” Romans 5:1,2. By faith we believe and are justified, and by grace are we saved and born again, and we enter into this grace by that faith being made a new creation in Christ and have God working in us, this is how we put on Christ.
So when Paul says, ““For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body” 1 Cor 12:13 , and “For as many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ “ Galatians 3:27. This baptism is how we are saved and brought into Christ, this is a reality is all believers through continual faith. And as Paul said, “Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; “ Romans 4:16. The grace here is God's work in our lives and this is the new life in Christ.
The believing part, or the faith part, is that which makes reconciliation possible between God and man. The baptism part, or the grace part, is Gods working in us at the new birth by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, “For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.”Romans 5:10. His life is that unmerited favour to us, and so it is by grace are ye saved through faith. We enter into that power inwardly as well, for we read, that we are crucified with Christ , buried with him and risen with him. This is a deeply spiritual thing
So truly if a man says he believes (or has faith) and is not baptized into Christ or entered into the grace , (grace being the divine influence and working of God and His spirit in our lives and all his favour unmerited to us), he does not have saving faith or the true baptism. To say, "I have faith" and not have new birth (being immersed, baptized into Christ by the Spirit) is not salvation,. But to those who receive the gospel and truly believe they will then be baptized into Christ and have a new life and shall be saved by his life. Some may dunk under water and never be saved or have the saving baptism into Christ, but ALL those who truly believe the gospel, will be baptized into Christ by one Spirit (1 Cor 12:13) .
So as Jesus said in Mark 16:16, “he that believes and is baptized shall be saved”, this again is not talking about water baptism, but rather the baptism into Christ and how, by faith we enter into the grace wherein we stand. The new birth is by the word of God the engrafted word which is able to save our souls. This is how we are born again and this word of God is the free gift given to men through the righteousness of Christ on the cross. And this is the word by which the gospel is preached.

 

[LoveofTruth]

The Greek for "baptized" above means to submerse under water, so it is not pointing to the Holy Spirit baptism, but to water baptism.

No, the word also means "to immerse into" And we see even John speaks of baptizing with water and Jesus baptizing with the Holy Ghost. These are two different baptisms. And the word is not to submerse under water in both.

"G907 - from a derivative of 911; to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed ..."(Strongs Concordance)