DO WE NEED TO RE-THINK GOD'S LOVE

[Pearl]

This morning I was reading Zephaniah 3:17-20 - one of my favourite passages - it is such a beautiful passage about how our God loves us.

Zephaniah 3:17
The Lord your God is with you,
the Mighty Warrior who saves.
He will take great delight in you;
in his love he will no longer rebuke you,
but will rejoice over you with singing.”

I couldn't help comparing these words, as well as other scripture passages, which tell us so much about our God's Father love for us with what I had heard a couple of nights previously during a programme in which a former JW member talked about the way their Jehovah is portrayed as very judgmental and hard to please.

If the God you worship is portrayed as harsh and judgmental by your elders,pastors or priests, then you need to read your bibles and look for those passages that declare God's loving kindness towards you and have a re-think.

 

[Karl Peters]

We don't so much need to rethink God's love as to get to know God's love!!

The problem in the OP is thinking that scriptures do the telling of God's love, when in fact it is the Lord who tells us about His love for us!!

You can see what I am talking about:

Mark 12: 30,31 Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.’

This scriptures points out that if we "HEAR" we "SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD"!

So it is not reading about Him, but actually taking the time to listen to what He personally has to say to us which causes us to love Him - and we should know that we love Him because He loved us first!

For example - if an anonymous person leaves you a love note and you read it, you might consider that some anonymous person loves you, but you don't know that until you meet them and start personally spending some time with them. - and that is with a personal note sent to you and not a book sent to all man-kind!

The point is: To really know God's love for us, we must personally spend time talking back and forth with Him!! The relationship that follows from actually spending time with Him is what really shows us His love for us!! The Bible is the "love note"/Book that is sent to get our attention and is our invitation to spend time with Him!!

 

[Gottservant]

God loves our spirit and our memories.

This is a work of the Holy Spirit, that has always been the case (we just haven't realised it, until recently)

 

[Pearl]

We don't so much need to rethink God's love as to get to know God's love!!

The problem in the OP is thinking that scriptures do the telling of God's love, when in fact it is the Lord who tells us about His love for us!!

You can see what I am talking about:

Mark 12: 30,31 Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.’

This scriptures points out that if we "HEAR" we "SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD"!

So it is not reading about Him, but actually taking the time to listen to what He personally has to say to us which causes us to love Him - and we should know that we love Him because He loved us first!

For example - if an anonymous person leaves you a love note and you read it, you might consider that some anonymous person loves you, but you don't know that until you meet them and start personally spending some time with them. - and that is with a personal note sent to you and not a book sent to all man-kind!

The point is: To really know God's love for us, we must personally spend time talking back and forth with Him!! The relationship that follows from actually spending time with Him is what really shows us His love for us!! The Bible is the "love note"/Book that is sent to get our attention and is our invitation to spend time with Him!!

My point is that too many people who call themselves Christians have a distorted view of our loving God because of the teachings from their pastors, priests or elders. Some groups are discouraged from seeking answers for themselves and so are misguided in their beliefs that our Father God is judgmental and harsh. They believe their teachers who dish out punishment to those who transgress the code of behaviour their leaders expect them to obey.

I still say to anybody who is taught that God is harsh and hard to please or judgemental to read the scriptures for themselves and see that the God therein is totally different and in fact delights in his people. He is first and foremost a loving Father not a harsh judge.

 

[dev553344]

I'm not a big fan of legalism. But I'm mentally ill and need God's love more than some. And I don't really need someone judging me. I already do that myself. So the passages in the OP are nice to read!

 

[Pearl]

I'm not a big fan of legalism. But I'm mentally ill and need God's love more than some. And I don't really need someone judging me. I already do that myself. So the passages in the OP are nice to read!

There some beautiful passages that tell of God's lovingkindness and Fathers heart towards us.

Psalm 103:13-14​

As a father has compassion on his children,
so the Lord has compassion on those who fear him;
for he knows how we are formed,
he remembers that we are dust.

 

[ChristisGod]

We must use the whole council of Gods word not just what we like to hear.

Hebrews 12- an entire chapter on Gods love and discipline upon those He loves.

Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

God Disciplines His Children​

4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,

“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”[a]
7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! 10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

12 Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. 13 “Make level paths for your feet,”[b] so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed.

Warning and Encouragement​

14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. 16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17 Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. Even though he sought the blessing with tears, he could not change what he had done.

The Mountain of Fear and the Mountain of Joy​

18 You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; 19 to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, 20 because they could not bear what was commanded: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned to death.”[c] 21 The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.”[d]

22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

25 See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? 26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.”[e] 27 The words “once more” indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29 for our “God is a consuming fire.”[f]

 

[Pearl]

We must use the whole council of Gods word not just what we like to hear.

Hebrews 12- an entire chapter on Gods love and discipline upon those He loves.

Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

God Disciplines His Children​

4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,

“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”[a]
7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! 10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

12 Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. 13 “Make level paths for your feet,”[b] so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed.

Warning and Encouragement​

14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. 16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17 Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. Even though he sought the blessing with tears, he could not change what he had done.

The Mountain of Fear and the Mountain of Joy​

18 You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; 19 to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, 20 because they could not bear what was commanded: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned to death.”[c] 21 The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.”[d]

22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

25 See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? 26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.”[e] 27 The words “once more” indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29 for our “God is a consuming fire.”[f]

So I think if you were my pastor I would change churches. GOD IS LOVE. To those of us who are saved he is a loving Father and his discipline is out of love and not harsh or judgemental. He doesn't shun people because they like a drink or a cigarette.

Matthew 11:28-30​

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”​

 

[ChristisGod]

So I think if you were my pastor i would change churches. GOD IS LOVE. To those of us who are saved he is a loving Father and his discipline is out of love and not harsh or judgemental. He doesn't shun people because they like a drink or a cigarette.

Matthew 11:28-30​

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”​

So if your pastor preached through Hebrews you would walk on when he preached on Hebrews the 12th chapter ?

 

[Pearl]

So if your pastor preached through Hebrews you would walk on when he preached on Hebrews the 12th chapter ?

Through the pastors of the two churches I have belonged to I have learned how much God loves those who are washed clean in the blood of His Lamb. I have learned about how the Holy Spirit can impart Godly discipline but never that my God is harsh or judgemental.

And I reiterate my OP statement that if people are in a church fellowship that preaches a judgemental and harsh God - whatever name they give him - they should read the scriptures for themselves, looking for those passages that tell of his love. Even those who preach that people must be shunned for minor 'crimes' like smoking of drinking might find a different face of God in the scriptures if they looked. I don't want people to miss out.

 

[dev553344]

So I think if you were my pastor i would change churches. GOD IS LOVE. To those of us who are saved he is a loving Father and his discipline is out of love and not harsh or judgemental. He doesn't shun people because they like a drink or a cigarette.

Matthew 11:28-30​

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”​

I would tend to agree that for those the Lord has chosen he is loving and forgiving. He knows we do our best and I believe he will work with us and knows our imperfections. I don't know that he judges all people on the same scale and highly doubt that. The mind is a complex thing and perhaps there are some with spirits that are older from creation than others. Does he judge children the same as adults? The USA doesn't either. Children often get a break in the law.

 

[ChristisGod]

Through the pastors of the two churches I have belonged to I have learned how much God loves those who are washed clean in the blood of His Lamb. I have learned about how the Holy Spirit can impart Godly discipline but never that my God is harsh or judgemental.

And I reiterate my OP statement that if people are in a church fellowship that preaches a judgemental and harsh God - whatever name they give him - they should read the scriptures for themselves, looking for those passages that tell of his love. Even those who preach that people must be shunned for minor 'crimes' like smoking of drinking might find a different face of God in the scriptures if they looked. I don't want people to miss out.

Just so you know I’m one of the biggest advocates of God is love because it’s His primary attribute as a Tri-Unity of Persons as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I have written a thesis paper based upon God in love in light of the atonement.

 

[MatthewG]

Some people may need to rethink the love of God @Pearl.


The Father has cut me back many times, even so, he does it out of love.

But does that mean as human beings we need to cut them down? Or is God able to do such things by the spirit?

Reminded of what Jesus says here to his Apostles.

John 15​

​

New Living Translation​

​

​

Jesus, the True Vine​

15 “I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener.

2 He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more.

3 You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you.

4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me.

5 “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing.

6 Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.

7 But if you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask for anything you want, and it will be granted!

8 When you produce much fruit, you are my true disciples. This brings great glory to my Father.

9 “I have loved you even as the Father has loved me. Remain in my love.

10 When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.

11 I have told you these things so that you will be filled with my joy. Yes, your joy will overflow!

12 This is my commandment: Love each other in the same way I have loved you.

13 There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

15 I no longer call you slaves, because a master doesn’t confide in his slaves. Now you are my friends, since I have told you everything the Father told me.

16 You didn’t choose me. I chose you. I appointed you to go and produce lasting fruit, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask for, using my name.

17 This is my command: Love each other.

A DEAR CHOICE ^.

The World’s Hatred​

18 “If the world hates you, remember that it hated me first. 19 The world would love you as one of its own if you belonged to it, but you are no longer part of the world. I chose you to come out of the world, so it hates you. 20 Do you remember what I told you? ‘A slave is not greater than the master.’ Since they persecuted me, naturally they will persecute you. And if they had listened to me, they would listen to you. 21 They will do all this to you because of me, for they have rejected the one who sent me. 22 They would not be guilty if I had not come and spoken to them. But now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 Anyone who hates me also hates my Father. 24 If I hadn’t done such miraculous signs among them that no one else could do, they would not be guilty. But as it is, they have seen everything I did, yet they still hate me and my Father. 25 This fulfills what is written in their Scriptures[a]: ‘They hated me without cause.’
26 “But I will send you the Advocate[b]—the Spirit of truth. He will come to you from the Father and will testify all about me. 27 And you must also testify about me because you have been with me from the beginning of my ministry.

 

[dev553344]

Some people may need to rethink the love of God @Pearl.


The Father has cut me back many times, even so, he does it out of love.

But does that mean as human beings we need to cut them down? Or is God able to do such things by the spirit?

Reminded of what Jesus says here to his Apostles.

John 15​

​

New Living Translation​

​

​

A DEAR CHOICE ^.

People that are out of tune with hearing God often need rebuking. I know of a few people like that. But sure, people that are in tune with hearing God understand what he is saying.

 

[Pearl]

My point it starting this thread - and I think, judging by some of the replies, that I have given it a misleading title.

We know God is love. We know that in his love he gently corrects us when we need discipline. The point of the thread is to contrast those who teach the true nature of God with those who teach that he is harsh and judgemental.

Setting something out using the written word aimed at strangers often leads to misconceptions.

 

[MatthewG]

People that are out of tune with hearing God often need rebuking. I know of a few people like that. But sure, people that are in tune with hearing God understand what he is saying.

What is the definition of rebuke though, @Devin?


Is it needed because of someone not believing the same way another?

When it comes down to a lets paint a picture.

A man comes into a bar, and starts talking about his problem, his bar friend is person who has no interest in God.

And they talk, and as they are there together, they express the notion of killing another person.

That would be the need for a rebuke?

we have to define a rebuke in some form of fasion that deals with the characteristics of - non-loving actions that need to be critized or shunned? or is it he beliefs an individual has that needs to be?​

​

Is there is a distinction?​

sorry idk i tired to turn the bold off.

 

[MatthewG]

There are four defintions of what a rebuke is in the GREEK.

One is primarily to put honor upon, then, to adjudge, signfiying rebuke.

Another one is, To convict, refute, reprove, - rebuke.

Another one is, to strike at, to rebuke - (1 Timothy 5:1)

The last one is, Rebuke meaning to have, ? - Job 21:4


Here is the refined print to look at.



@Lambano I found your name referenced here.

 

[dev553344]

What is the definition of rebuke though, @Devin?


Is it needed because of someone not believing the same way another?

When it comes down to a lets paint a picture.




That would be the need for a rebuke?

we have to define a rebuke in some form of fasion that deals with the characteristics of - non-loving actions that need to be critized or shunned? or is it he beliefs an individual has that needs to be?​

​

Is there is a distinction?​

sorry idk i tired to turn the bold off.

Yes the bolding is a problem in the programming of this forum. I've noticed a few glitches.

I think a gentle rebuke is needed when someone is not teaching the true gospel message.

For instance:

The law condemns us all. What we are in need of is a loving Father that has compassion on mankind thru the atonement of his caring Son. And that God guides us to be better people that one day we can come home to his house into a loving family.

So for instance, telling people they must obey the commandments to be saved might not be true doctrine and is probably not. But we are told to obey the commandments so it's twisting the truth in some way. The truth is we should encourage each other to obey the commandments which are vast in the directive of loving others and God like the sheep and goats spells out. And the truth is we will not be perfect in that love, but we should try. And the imperfections in us obeying the commandments are probably covered by the atonement of Christ. So we can do our best and have peace. Judging someone for failing the commandments probably is not wise for us children to do.

 

[dev553344]

So do people judge others by presenting some other gospel message of condemnation? Probably. Because their not sharing the entire gospel message as spelled out in the bible. Or perhaps don't understand it.

 

[MatthewG]

Thank you for your replies, Dev.

Would agree that anything that motivates to non-love, should be rebuked, when someone is spirit lead - and near a neighbor - the conversation should try to be going towards the light side, rather than the dark side.

It's unfortunate, how strong the flesh can be until its broken down by Christ Jesus, but that choice is up to the individual, to pick up that cross and follow after him.