Do Demon's Dwell Within Christians?

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear A,

Yes, I agree that is a better way to put it.

And UHC,

Well said.

 

[Angelina]

Well thanks. I doubt that there are many on this thread or on this forum in general, that have come from a "Deliverance Ministry" [casting out demons] background. Something that I have had many years experience in and it is from that position, I say this :)

Blessings!!!

 

[dragonfly]

HI Angelina,

My understanding is that the ministry of deliverance is needed by those for whom a demon is too strong, too deeply embedded, or, too hidden; but there are many demons who will leave as a result of whole-hearted obedience to the Lord, and following after righteousness, Romans 12:1. I believe it's important for healing to be received into the area of the life where the demon resided, and that if a person is not ready (wholeheartedly seeking) to be free, it's better to leave the demon alone.

 

[Angelina]

I will leave you guys to continue on with your thoughts..
http://www.christianityboard.com/blog/84/entry-541-popular-christian-theology-dispelling-some-of-the-myths/

Bless ya! ^_^

 

[Rex]

I disagree, we are tempted and involved in a spiritual conflict daily, thats a fact.
dwelling in the same temple the HS has come into, not a chance unless you have opened the door.

AH If you believe there is no difference in the OT covenant under the law and the new covenant then I suggest you take a closer look.
Yes a H spirit believer does battle everyday but the victory has been won. If your experiencing defeat its not because the devil has the power it because you have allowed it. Its part of growing and maturing the Lord doesn't allows us to be tested or temped beyond what we can endure, The problem is many can't handle the climb. Stuck on a step, "I have a demon" instead of, Lord what am I missing in my walk with you? I've been told the definition of insanity is repeating the same action "or theological belief" and expecting different results.

It a nice little ministry casting demons out of born again believers but it has no scriptural evidence.
The reality is in believing and walking the victory that Jesus provided. The renewing of your mind that you might discern what it is that is pleasing to the Lord. There are many comments in this forum expressing the defeated nature of Christians today. Is it any wonder when they go around teaching a defeated message. Teaching being over come and needing deliverance from devils 1 Cor 10:13

In Col 1:13 Paul says God “delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son.” Salvation brings true deliverance and protection from Satan. In Romans 8:37 Paul says we overwhelmingly conquer through Christ. In 1 Cor 15:57 he says God gives us the victory. In 2 Cor2:14 he says God always leads us in triumph. In 1 John 2:13 John says we have overcome the evil one. And, in 1 John 4:4, he says the indwelling Holy Spirit is greater than Satan. How could anyone affirm those glorious truths, yet believe demons can indwell genuine believers?

 

[Powerful weakness]

I disagree, we are tempted and involved in a spiritual conflict daily, thats a fact.
dwelling in the same temple the HS has come into, not a chance unless you have opened the door.

Sin opens the door for demons. Who has not opened the door?

 

[Rex]

Sin opens the door for demons. Who has not opened the door?

It would seem to me you have little faith in the grace won at the cross.
You do remember that we are saved by faith threw grace, and that not of ourselves.
Not because we have become sinless, or that we will never sin again, "stumble" we will its part of growing.
You should learn and become strengthened, by the testing of your faith, being refined, "not being possessed" James calls it being tossed around, double minded.

Hebrews 10
32 But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; 34 for you had compassion on me[h] in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven.[i]35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

37 “For yet a little while,
And He[j] who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the[k] just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”[l]

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

Romans 5
5 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have[a] peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

1 Peter 1
5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen[a] you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

James 1
2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. 4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing. 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.


Its a shame how many verses that I can find that support we have receive victory in Christ.


That we'll not be snatched way, that we will not be tempted beyond endurance. We have over come, that's the NT message.
All of that true so long as you stay in Him.

Yet the pro christian possession doctrine is AWOL as far as evidence.
Christian by definition receiving the HS. Being in and knowing Christ

 

[Axehead]

Sin opens the door for demons. Who has not opened the door?

Yes, it is our responsibility to guard the "borders" of our "land". Casting down vain imaginations and taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. Keep the doors shut!!

Until we understand that 1) we have given ground to the enemy 2) and how we did it, we will not be able to turn back towards the Lord and repent and the enemy will have a legal right to stay. Sin lets the enemy in and relinquishes some of our land, repentance will drive him out.

Now, people get hung up and stumble on the word "possession" as if every one that has received a spirit will be tearing their clothes and frothing at the mouth and that is just not the case. Paul clearly states to Christians (no less) that they can receive another spirit.

(2Co_11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Satan rides the rails of sin and sin will bring the hedge of protection down in our lives and give the "powers of darkness" a legal right to move in and they won't move out until one repents of the ground given to them. The command is still the same for the Church today as it was for the Hebrew children. Rise up, and Possess the Land!!

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Rex,

Its a shame how many verses that I can find that support we have receive victory in Christ.

I don't know if you'll understand this post either, but it may fill in some gaps, which might be of help in grasping the bigger picture.

First of all, it is not a shame to have a demon. They are predators. They are acting on the directions of greater demons.
They are led by the greatest imposter himself, Lucifer, who wanted to usurp the throne of God. He has no morality; and no scruples.

Here is an unpleasant fact. Men who predate on children, often (significant percentage) predate on sick children. Isn't that sick? I mention it to make the point that a devil has no compassion. His mission is to destroy lives, and to maximise the damage done to the image of God in man.

What kind of resistance could a healthy child offer against a predator? What kind of resistance could a sick child offer against a predator? Little.

Why am I saying this? Because the kind of people who end up baptised in the Spirit, in Christian circles, are from the byways and highways. They were compelled to come in by a loving King. They may have been given a wedding garment, but that only hides their bruises.

Do you think Jesus wants them to be whole? Yes He does. I know you know that. So, how is He going to deal with their inner turmoil and pain?


Gently!



Do you think that demons are stronger than the Holy Spirit? (I don't think they are.)

Would the Holy Spirit refuse to enter a believer because of the presence of demons there? I don't think so.

Is God in charge of His dealings with an individual's life after he has come to Christ? I know so.



The problem with the doctrine you're putting forth, is that it ignores the reality of God's dealings with some men and women.

If you have no experience of seeing Christians being delivered from evil spirits, you don't need to have an opinion about it, let alone an opinion which disrespects believers' testimonies.

If you're fighting against the raw truth because you think it's a shame for a Christian to have a demon, you've been taught incorrectly; because while it is true that sin, self and flesh are the playground of demons, many genuine believers - whose heart God has examined, and given them the Holy Spirit - (who need deliverance), have been the butt of other people's playtime rather than their own. The inner pain (demon hiding place) they carry is due to the sins which have been perpetuated against them, and they need healing at least, and deliverance in some cases.

The kind of ministry which tends to these souls, is pastoral, not evangelical. The preaching of the cross enables them to enter into Hebrews 10:14 in spirit by the Spirit, but their soul (mind) and their body may be in sore need of the pouring in of God's oil and the wine.

Luke 10:'... A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, 34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee. 36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? 37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

If New Covenant churchmen are to do better than the Old Covenant priest and Levite, then they need to be ready to get their spiritual hands dirty, and minister to people who are sick at heart - mentally, emotionally, psychologically sick - whose lives have been battered and bruised in multiple ways.


Proverbs 18:14 The spirit of a man will sustain his infirmity; but a wounded spirit who can bear?

How is a person in that state supposed to know whether they have a demon or not? Some of them have never even heard of a demon!



Do you think that the Lord does not know what He's dealing with when He enters their temple by the Holy Spirit? (I believe He knows everything.)


All the verses which you have posted are excellent, but they don't prove that a saint cannot have a demon. They are part of the answer for the saint with a demon, and they are rock solid truth for that believer to hang on to, but even believing every one of those verses with a whole heart, will not necessarily cause a demon to depart. The work of taking back the ground of a damaged life, is more intricate than that, and the Lord oversees it.

The other problem with historical pain, is that people develop ways to cope with it. This is another possible source of demonic activity in their lives, because apart from the healing which comes from the Lord, there is no other real answer. About 80% of the men who were abused as boys, end up using alcohol and drugs to self-medicate, and there are many other destructive behaviours which open a body to demons. Just because a person has become a Christian, does not fix all those things at once, although it should fix somethings immediately, and other things should follow.

Impatient Christians who think the new believer should become a minister in the next two minutes, and then disrespect them for not having the necessary spiritual stamina, are responsible for driving such needy lambs out of the fold and on to the equivalent of the spiritual street, where at least they are accepted for who they are, and they might even have a fragile ministry of their own, passing on the good news of salvation. As they learn to hear His voice, and regain their very damaged faculty of trust, it is possible for the Lord to deal with deeper issues, little by little.

Surely it is His business how He leads a person to see, understand, receive His ministrations, and be released from every stronghold?

Most of us know what it is to have our hand tightly clenched around an item we do not want to have to give Him, even though we have prayed to give Him our whole lives unreservedly. When He replies with, 'Okay, please give me that', we are astonished that He should think it was part of the deal. It wasn't even in our minds when we prayed, and now it feels as if we'll die if we have to give it up. Exactly! That is His plan. I am not saying that all strongholds have a demon calling the shots, but the ones which keep evading capture most certainly are candidates.



I have asked the brother who was delivered from a spirit of rejection after he was born again, if he will contribute to the thread. He is busy through Sunday, and then he will read the thread, and consider what he could share. While I was speaking with him, he pointed out how difficult these things are to explain, and that we do not understand why God deals with things the way He does sometimes, in the spiritual realm.

Isn't that a fair point?

 

[Angelina]

Finally...someone who understands...bless ya! ^_^
Theology in the light of reality will not stand. Experience will always outdo knowledge...

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Well taught Axe.

 

[Rex]

Hi Rex,



I don't know if you'll understand this post either, but it may fill in some gaps, which might be of help in grasping the bigger picture.

First of all, it is not a shame to have a demon. They are predators. They are acting on the directions of greater demons.
They are led by the greatest imposter himself, Lucifer, who wanted to usurp the throne of God. He has no morality; and no scruples.

Here is an unpleasant fact. Men who predate on children, often (significant percentage) predate on sick children. Isn't that sick? I mention it to make the point that a devil has no compassion. His mission is to destroy lives, and to maximise the damage done to the image of God in man.

What kind of resistance could a healthy child offer against a predator? What kind of resistance could a sick child offer against a predator? Little.

Why am I saying this? Because the kind of people who end up baptised in the Spirit, in Christian circles, are from the byways and highways. They were compelled to come in by a loving King. They may have been given a wedding garment, but that only hides their bruises.

Do you think Jesus wants them to be whole? Yes He does. I know you know that. So, how is He going to deal with their inner turmoil and pain?


Gently!



Do you think that demons are stronger than the Holy Spirit? (I don't think they are.)

Would the Holy Spirit refuse to enter a believer because of the presence of demons there? I don't think so.

Is God in charge of His dealings with an individual's life after he has come to Christ? I know so.



The problem with the doctrine you're putting forth, is that it ignores the reality of God's dealings with some men and women.

If you have no experience of seeing Christians being delivered from evil spirits, you don't need to have an opinion about it, let alone an opinion which disrespects believers' testimonies.

If you're fighting against the raw truth because you think it's a shame for a Christian to have a demon, you've been taught incorrectly; because while it is true that sin, self and flesh are the playground of demons, many genuine believers - whose heart God has examined, and given them the Holy Spirit - (who need deliverance), have been the butt of other people's playtime rather than their own. The inner pain (demon hiding place) they carry is due to the sins which have been perpetuated against them, and they need healing at least, and deliverance in some cases.

The kind of ministry which tends to these souls, is pastoral, not evangelical. The preaching of the cross enables them to enter into Hebrews 10:14 in spirit by the Spirit, but their soul (mind) and their body may be in sore need of the pouring in of God's oil and the wine.

Luke 10:'... A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, 34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee. 36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? 37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

If New Covenant churchmen are to do better than the Old Covenant priest and Levite, then they need to be ready to get their spiritual hands dirty, and minister to people who are sick at heart - mentally, emotionally, psychologically sick - whose lives have been battered and bruised in multiple ways.


Proverbs 18:14 The spirit of a man will sustain his infirmity; but a wounded spirit who can bear?

How is a person in that state supposed to know whether they have a demon or not? Some of them have never even heard of a demon!



Do you think that the Lord does not know what He's dealing with when He enters their temple by the Holy Spirit? (I believe He knows everything.)


All the verses which you have posted are excellent, but they don't prove that a saint cannot have a demon. They are part of the answer for the saint with a demon, and they are rock solid truth for that believer to hang on to, but even believing every one of those verses with a whole heart, will not necessarily cause a demon to depart. The work of taking back the ground of a damaged life, is more intricate than that, and the Lord oversees it.

The other problem with historical pain, is that people develop ways to cope with it. This is another possible source of demonic activity in their lives, because apart from the healing which comes from the Lord, there is no other real answer. About 80% of the men who were abused as boys, end up using alcohol and drugs to self-medicate, and there are many other destructive behaviours which open a body to demons. Just because a person has become a Christian, does not fix all those things at once, although it should fix somethings immediately, and other things should follow.

Impatient Christians who think the new believer should become a minister in the next two minutes, and then disrespect them for not having the necessary spiritual stamina, are responsible for driving such needy lambs out of the fold and on to the equivalent of the spiritual street, where at least they are accepted for who they are, and they might even have a fragile ministry of their own, passing on the good news of salvation. As they learn to hear His voice, and regain their very damaged faculty of trust, it is possible for the Lord to deal with deeper issues, little by little.

Surely it is His business how He leads a person to see, understand, receive His ministrations, and be released from every stronghold?

Most of us know what it is to have our hand tightly clenched around an item we do not want to have to give Him, even though we have prayed to give Him our whole lives unreservedly. When He replies with, 'Okay, please give me that', we are astonished that He should think it was part of the deal. It wasn't even in our minds when we prayed, and now it feels as if we'll die if we have to give it up. Exactly! That is His plan. I am not saying that all strongholds have a demon calling the shots, but the ones which keep evading capture most certainly are candidates.



I have asked the brother who was delivered from a spirit of rejection after he was born again, if he will contribute to the thread. He is busy through Sunday, and then he will read the thread, and consider what he could share. While I was speaking with him, he pointed out how difficult these things are to explain, and that we do not understand why God deals with things the way He does sometimes, in the spiritual realm.

Isn't that a fair point?

Finally...someone who understands...bless ya! ^_^
Theology in the light of reality will not stand. Experience will always outdo knowledge...

Believe as you like; I fail to see Luke 10 or proverbs 18 making a case for possession.
As many that buy it, I would think some clear evidence would exist. Instead of your own reasoning making the case.
But thats what Justin promotes, reason over clear biblical truths. I'll keep an eye out just in-case you find evidence to support the ministry of demon possession of Christians. I'm not above resorting my understanding providing I have a clear scriptural bases.

Casting demons out of someone is a clear sign in scripture of the unsaved not the saved.
I won't be posting in this thread any longer, Its pointless to continue disagreement.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[b] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.


12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

 

[Axehead]

Dragonfly,

Your post in #89 was written very well. I appreciate your loving and tender heart of understanding towards those who have been bruised and beaten by the Enemy and your wisdom in dealing with this subject. Clearly, you have had experience in helping the downtrodden.

Luke_4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Well taught Axe.

Thank you, Justin.

 

[Rex]

Casting demons out of someone is a clear sign in scripture of the unsaved not the saved.

 

[Angelina]

Quote from Rex

Believe as you like; I fail to see Luke 10 or proverbs 18 making a case for possession.
As many that buy it, I would think some clear evidence would exist. Instead of your own reasoning making the case.
But thats what Justin promotes, reason over clear biblical truths. I'll keep an eye out just in-case you find evidence to support the ministry of demon possession of Christians. I'm not above resorting my understanding providing I have a clear scriptural bases.

Clear evidence does exist. Many thousands of believer's are being set free through the Deliverance Ministries every day. The evidence is not found in theological belief systems, it is out out there on the street...

Rex

Casting demons out of someone is a clear sign in scripture of the unsaved not the saved.

That is the very reason why Christian will not get deliverance...."Judgment by other believer's" so they continue on, hiding their struggles... :unsure:

Be Blessed!

 

[Rex]

Quote from Rex


Clear evidence does exist. Many thousands of believer's are being set free through the Deliverance Ministries every day. The evidence is not found in theological belief systems, it is out out there on the street...

Rex


That is the very reason why Christian will not get deliverance...."Judgment by other believer's" so they continue on, hiding their struggles... :unsure:

Be Blessed!

Clear evidence does exist.

Thats what I've been saying all along, I haven't out of respect or compassion tried to point out walking in Christ is not easy.
That being said If "and I believe you are genuine" that people are being delivered from demons YES but they never had the Holy Spirit to begin with.

The scripture doesn't support it at all, the conclusion must be THEY WERE NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH.

Now please provide your evidence

 

[Angelina]

Let's take a real life case scenario...

When Jesus died on the cross for our sins...did he take away the capability for us to sin as well? :huh:

If a believer found themselves caught up in watching porn...are they now sinning?

1 Corinthians 6
8 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

Tell me...is this verse talking to believer's or the un-saved???

 

[Rex]

I'd be pretty embarrassed myself If I went around telling people I was born again only later to find I was being controlled by demons that imitated and fooled me into believing other wise

 

[Axehead]

Casting demons out of someone is a clear sign in scripture of the unsaved not the saved.

I have often said, Rex, that a Christian can have whatever they want.

If they want to go headlong into sin they will undoubtedley receive the spirit behind that sin. You cannot say they are not saved. Satan knows how to take our eyes off of God. He can bring rejection and hurt to an individual and then bitterness and unforgiveness will set in, after which rebellion and hatred and carnal living will result. Do you think that these works of the flesh (which mirror the character of Satan) are not accompanied by the powers of darkness?

Not understanding the Adversary and how demons seek to gain entrance in a Believer's life will only limit your personal ministry to those in need.

You cannot cast out the flesh or crucify a demon. There are both extremes. Those who think everything is a demon, they are forever casting "everything" out when sometimes it is a person's flesh that needs to be submitted to the cross. The other extreme is those who believe all our problems are the flesh and they are practicing extreme self-denial and rigidity and legalism yet not getting freed from that stronghold within them, because what they really need is the Lord's deliverance. They don't understand how they gave ground to the enemy and if they don't understand that then they won't understand how to reclaim that ground.

The Hebrew children in the wildernness sometimes needed deliverance (real enemies in the land). But if they submitted to the Lord (embraced the cross) and not sinned then there would be no need for deliverance. The fact that the Adversary invaded their land did not rattle God's cage and make Him leave and neither did it cause the Children of Israel to stop being the People of God.

God even showed them how to maintain their deliverance (what every Christian should know) and that is by turning to Him with their whole heart and not being joined to anything in their heart but Him. That will definitely keep the borders of their land, safe. Once a person is delivered from some "enemy" he/she needs to know how to maintain their deliverance.

These things are not taught, today and because of it, many are being destroyed.

John_10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.


Axehead

 

[Rex]

Let's take a real life case scenario...

When Jesus died on the cross for our sins...did he take away the capability for us to sin as well? :huh:

If a believer found themselves caught up in watching porn...are they now sinning?

Your advocating grace out of the equation with your reasoning, If a man or woman simply thought they have sinned.
Thus we go threw the renewing of the mind its not automatic. To presume after receiving the spirit a man is perfect is unrealistic, Paul never made such a claim.