Do Demon's Dwell Within Christians?
- Thread starter Justin Mangonel
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marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
I have been a christian for 58 years. During that time I have been used by God along with a few others to bring revival to a church and I was in fellowship at a church for 10 years that experienced revival for 30 years.
In 1976 whilst I was at this church, I was delivered of a spirit of rejection. This spirit controlled all my responses and prevented me from fully entering into the benefits of my salvation. When I was prayed for, I fell to the floor backwards (no one was there to catch me) and I lay there for 30 minutes and I felt God perform an operation and remove the spirit.
Needless to say, I rose a different man. These days I am aware of this spirit trying to get me down or affect my responses but he is fighting a lost cause because there is no doubt that I was delivered on that day in 1976.
At the same time, I just happen to believe in the experience of being filled with the spirit subsequent to salvation, so it was not a case I was not born again or somehow lacking in my faith.
Hi Marksman,
I know of more than one other person who had been born again before they were delivered from a spirit of rejection.
I believe the Lord begins a work of restoration in the believer from the day of believing, and He prepares the ground for such deliverances, so that the new thoughts which arise after the deliverance, are in their proper spiritual context, and able to be understood and implemented by the believer.
Praise the Lord for His power and faithfulness to those who trust Him with everything.
I know of more than one other person who had been born again before they were delivered from a spirit of rejection.
I believe the Lord begins a work of restoration in the believer from the day of believing, and He prepares the ground for such deliverances, so that the new thoughts which arise after the deliverance, are in their proper spiritual context, and able to be understood and implemented by the believer.
Praise the Lord for His power and faithfulness to those who trust Him with everything.
Hi Rex,
I hope marksman will offer his insight on the spirit of rejection.
Here are some scriptures to start with. (I can share some general principles.)
1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesses not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
This test may sound a little crazy, but it works, and it enables the minister to know whether what the person with the spirit is saying, is from the person or from the spirit. If the spirits are not from God, but the person is friends with them, then the wise minister does not attempt to cast them out, for the reason Jesus gave in Luke 11:24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walks through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return to my house whence I came out. 25 And when he comes, he finds it swept and garnished. 26 Then goes he, and takes to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.
To understand a little about the relationship between the person and the spirit(s), the story of Legion is instructive.
It is hard to tell whether the man himself actually said anything to Jesus, or was only able to manifest his inner heart by worshipping him. All the words coming out of his mouth were from unclean spirit, apart from one piece of the conversation, in v 10 - which I realise this could be read: 'the unclean spirit (singular) besought Him much that He would not send them (the legion) away out of the country; but see also that Jesus had already taken the offensive by having attempted to cast out 'the unclean spirit' (singular). The front-man of all those spirits appeared as a single entity to the Lord, and replied in the singular 'what have I to do with thee?' But the fact that the spirit had not shifted at His command, and probably the man's appearance, indicated a deeper need. That's why Jesus asked the spirit's name. And that's when the extent of the need was clarified. The 'spirit' gave a truthful answer in the presence of Jesus. Still, he said 'my name' (singular) and then gave a name which means a plural! Go figure!
1 And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes. 2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, 3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains: 4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him. 5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones. 6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, 7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. 8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit. 9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many. 10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
We learn from the description of the man's behaviour, that he had been tremendously tormented, leading to repeated violence towards himself; he had become wild (untamable), separated from normal society, awake night and day, and very unhappy (crying). Notice that Jesus was far more interested in him being released from his captivity to these spirits, than to find out the reason he fell prey to them. That's the Lord's pure compassion.
Paul is clear that the gift of discerning of spirits is not given to everyone. A person with the gift of discernment may be given the name of a spirit by the Holy Spirit. The person I know best, who was delivered from a spirit of rejection, was on a Christian training course, in which each person was being prayed for individually. It was during his turn to be prayed for, that a person present with the gift of discerning spirits, was shown that he had a spirit of rejection. (His personal history of having been rejected by one of his parents had been the fertile ground where it had found a home.) This was discussed with him to ascertain he desired that the spirit be cast out. (Not everyone is ready to say goodbye to the attitudes which permit a spirit to settle in.) After the spirit departed, he was (as marksman said of himself) 'a different man'.
I realise that the Gadarene was pre-Pentecost, but he was in the presence of Jesus, and it seems that whenever a demon was cast out by His authority, that the person was permanently freed. Likewise, Jesus could say, 'Go and sin no more', and it appears to have been the creative word in that person's life. Certainly we gather that Jesus expected them to be able to obey Him. There are times when we, too, need a creative word from the Lord Himself, to direct us.
This is a start to answering your question.
I hope marksman will offer his insight on the spirit of rejection.
Here are some scriptures to start with. (I can share some general principles.)
1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesses not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
This test may sound a little crazy, but it works, and it enables the minister to know whether what the person with the spirit is saying, is from the person or from the spirit. If the spirits are not from God, but the person is friends with them, then the wise minister does not attempt to cast them out, for the reason Jesus gave in Luke 11:24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walks through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return to my house whence I came out. 25 And when he comes, he finds it swept and garnished. 26 Then goes he, and takes to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.
To understand a little about the relationship between the person and the spirit(s), the story of Legion is instructive.
It is hard to tell whether the man himself actually said anything to Jesus, or was only able to manifest his inner heart by worshipping him. All the words coming out of his mouth were from unclean spirit, apart from one piece of the conversation, in v 10 - which I realise this could be read: 'the unclean spirit (singular) besought Him much that He would not send them (the legion) away out of the country; but see also that Jesus had already taken the offensive by having attempted to cast out 'the unclean spirit' (singular). The front-man of all those spirits appeared as a single entity to the Lord, and replied in the singular 'what have I to do with thee?' But the fact that the spirit had not shifted at His command, and probably the man's appearance, indicated a deeper need. That's why Jesus asked the spirit's name. And that's when the extent of the need was clarified. The 'spirit' gave a truthful answer in the presence of Jesus. Still, he said 'my name' (singular) and then gave a name which means a plural! Go figure!
1 And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes. 2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, 3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains: 4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him. 5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones. 6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, 7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. 8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit. 9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many. 10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
We learn from the description of the man's behaviour, that he had been tremendously tormented, leading to repeated violence towards himself; he had become wild (untamable), separated from normal society, awake night and day, and very unhappy (crying). Notice that Jesus was far more interested in him being released from his captivity to these spirits, than to find out the reason he fell prey to them. That's the Lord's pure compassion.
Paul is clear that the gift of discerning of spirits is not given to everyone. A person with the gift of discernment may be given the name of a spirit by the Holy Spirit. The person I know best, who was delivered from a spirit of rejection, was on a Christian training course, in which each person was being prayed for individually. It was during his turn to be prayed for, that a person present with the gift of discerning spirits, was shown that he had a spirit of rejection. (His personal history of having been rejected by one of his parents had been the fertile ground where it had found a home.) This was discussed with him to ascertain he desired that the spirit be cast out. (Not everyone is ready to say goodbye to the attitudes which permit a spirit to settle in.) After the spirit departed, he was (as marksman said of himself) 'a different man'.
I realise that the Gadarene was pre-Pentecost, but he was in the presence of Jesus, and it seems that whenever a demon was cast out by His authority, that the person was permanently freed. Likewise, Jesus could say, 'Go and sin no more', and it appears to have been the creative word in that person's life. Certainly we gather that Jesus expected them to be able to obey Him. There are times when we, too, need a creative word from the Lord Himself, to direct us.
This is a start to answering your question.
We see the Bible addresses many issues...an amazing amount of them. However, I do not believe that existence is limited to what is described in the scriptures. Not every single thing that can happen in life is spoken of in the Bible. We can look suspiciously upon what contradicts the Bible...but let us realize that when reality goes against what we perceive to be scripture it may be that our understanding is inadequate or wrong and not what is taking place before our eyes.
dragonfly said:
Not in the least.
Discernment and "testing" is Identifying false spirits, so it stands to reason that false spirits don't cohabit the born again believers who ----> John was writing to. Or he was helping them to identify them within their midst
Your posting the man possessed how is this an example of a spirit born again christian being possessed?
I've been over the the clean house after an unclean spirit has been cast out, notice the house isn't occupied by the HS ether.
Nor does it indicate it. Being born of the spirit isn't automatic, like cast out the demon possessed man and waalaa, born again, I don't think so. But rather they return to themselves.
I'm looking for Christians born of the spirit experiencing possession or being relieved of unclean spirits or any evidence in that category.
I'm well aware of the verses you provided but none of it addresses the thread topic IMO.
And why don't you go ahead and comment on "the spirit of rejection" you are a witness.
marksman may not post again for days.
I've said my piece on the last page.
Your grabbing at straws for evidence that supports
Do Demon's Dwell Within Christians?
It won't be anytime soon you find any scriptural indications ether;
How many post have you made pointing that out to others, like Marion-ology for instance?
So,
What did Jesus mean exactly when He said to Peter...Get thy behind me Satan...was the Devil just hovering around him somewhere or speaking out of Peters mouth...and if he was speaking out of Peters mouth how did He get in there? Was it not Peter who knew Jesus was the Messiah?
What did Jesus mean exactly when He said to Peter...Get thy behind me Satan...was the Devil just hovering around him somewhere or speaking out of Peters mouth...and if he was speaking out of Peters mouth how did He get in there? Was it not Peter who knew Jesus was the Messiah?
Hi Justin,
I do not interpret the incident to which you refer, as Peter being possessed by Satan in the way the rest of the discussion is about whether a person who becomes a Christian is automatically delivered from all the demons they may have been communing with before they believed.
But, the issue which is common to both, which is what Jesus pointed out to Peter, is a matter of the heart, or, the heart of the matter. Even though the Father had revealed to Peter that Jesus was the Messiah and 'the Son of the living God', Peter's heart had undergone no deep and permanent changes. He was still viewing everything from a fallen human point of view - Satan's point of view - self-preservation.
Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to show to his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. 22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be to thee. 23 But he turned, and said to Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Another way to read Jesus' words, is that Peter's words (straight from the heart of Satan) were a temptation to Jesus to lay aside His heavenly agenda, and cater to His flesh, in the same way as Satan had tempted Him in the wilderness. Luke 4:1 - 13. The Lord dare not dwell on the meaning of what had come out of Peter's mouth; He had to press on with the mission on which He had been sent by our heavenly Father.
And so do we.
Hello Rex,
Thank you for your further thoughts. :) May the Lord bless you as He is blessing me through this wider study.
If you have accepted that Jesus entering the Temple is a metaphor for what happens when a person believes into Christ, and He enters their life through the Holy Spirit, can you not leave it in His hands to lead the person through whatever deliverance they need?
You asked for more scripture, and I would point you to the several lists of sins in the epistles of Paul. If every demon had left the lives of all the believers in those churches, why was Paul urging them to abstain from sins of the flesh? We cannot fail to note that Paul never suggested they weren't 'true believers' in the opening verses of the epistles where sins of the flesh are mentioned by name. In fact, he specifically commends them for Godly attributes they were manifesting - such as gifts of the Spirit and Christian charity - while at the same time rebuking them where they had gone astray. The only time he talks about them receiving 'another spirit' is with regard to permutations away from the pure gospel that he had already preached to them. The strongholds, imaginations, and high things which exalt themselves in competition with the knowledge of Christ, to which he refers in 2 Corinthians 10, which are brought down by weapons which 'are not carnal' (that is, spiritual weapons), are of spiritual origin for sure:
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
For a moment, you are thinking you have an answer to this quote: 'Ah!' You say, 'But those spiritual powers were all outside him.' If so, what does this verse mean?
2 Corinthians 7:5 For, when we were come into Macedonia, our flesh had no rest, but we were troubled on every side; without were fightings, within were fears.
And why does he follow that with the word, 'Nevertheless ...'?
And why, with respect to fear, does John use the phrase, 'casts out' in 1 John 4:18, adding, 'because fear has torment'? And, 'He that fears is not made perfect in love'? John is not saying that a person cannot be made perfect in love, but that fear must be dealt with for perfection to pertain.
Hebrews 2:14 '... he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
The battle we experience as Christians is on many sides all at the same time. Not only are our minds assailed from without by thoughts which we have never had before sometimes, but we have our own thoughts with which we are very familiar, to sift through with the help of the Holy Spirit, and, we have to distinguish between what came from outside and what we have always thought or had a particular view. Often our views are well-founded on our own experience, and they enable us to make progress both in natural life and spiritually, but that doesn't mean they are on a par with God's mind. ('I understood as a child'. 1 Corinthians 13:11) But that is where He is trying to take us - to a realm of heavenly reasoning. In that respect, putting on the armour of God is not an external thing, but about one's heart and mind. It is about faith, truth, righteousness, faithfulness, good attitudes towards others, perseverance, endurance, trust (of God), discipline and purity. Anything in a saint's life which does not embrace these values fully, will be searched out by the fiery darts of the wicked one, and the Lord allows us to be stung by them, to show us where we are weak - in sin, need healing, or... in the case of some, plainly in bondage and needing deliverance. It is no shame to go through with God on any of these points. His aim is to restore us to more than Adam lost, and most people never face up to their own shortcomings, echoing Moses' plea, 'Let me not see my wretchedness'.
Regarding the brother I mentioned. He may be willing to come here to give his own testimony about it. I will ask him.
Many years ago, when my life was a mess - after I was born again - I read in a book about how the Lord allows people (who are not yet as 'sorted' as they will be, one day when the Lord has restored them to a greater degree of glory) to serve Him, and He uses them through the leading and gifts of the Holy Spirit. The verse which was given to explain this, is in the story of the ten lepers who asked Jesus for healing, and He sent them on their way before they were completely healed. The important thing was that they had turned to Him in expectation that He could do what they asked. In their case, healing would restore them to family and society and God. Isn't this the same for all outcasts? Luke 14:23
Luke 17:14 '... And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed. That is, they were obedient to the Lord's command.
There must be many Christians who have a form of godliness on the outside, who never admit they are 'not okay' on the inside, because they have imported to their Christianity, the world's expectation that to be acceptable to God, they have to put on a good show. So, they pull out all the stops, and keep going and keep going and keep going in their own strength, even blaming God when the going gets tough, not recognising that He allows pressures to mount, to bring them to an end of their own strength. In God's economy, He still uses them at the same time, and continues to work in areas of their life where He has free access. It is not until the crisis He has been cultivating, that they 'see' how certain things connected together to produce in them a certain response, which is not Godly, and is longer either tenable or viable. Suddenly, its shortcomings and one's own shortcomings, all come into the light of God's gaze when help is sought from Him. He has been waiting patiently to deal with these things, and a changed attitude on the part of the believer enables Him to minister to these deeper needs.
Our resistance to receiving from Him can be astonishing, considering we have received from Him before and have proved Him faithful. This resistance is a function of the strength of the flesh and the mind of the flesh, and is a haunt of demons. They have not utterly controlled, like those who were thrown into fire and water, but if we are honest, we have had to work with the Lord to resist the fires and falling into the water, not understanding that the strength of certain tempations is superhuman. But, we find, not super-God's. Amen and amen!
In scripture is another metaphor for this picture of the land of a person's life being taken back by Him, little by little. It is laid out in gory glory, in the book of Joshua, fulfilling the promises God made to Moses in Exodus. This is captured in one simple promise -
Deuteronomy 11:24 Every place whereon the soles of your feet shall tread shall be yours: from the wilderness and Lebanon, from the river, the river Euphrates, even unto the uttermost sea shall your coast be. (Jesus was taking back the Temple for Himself and God's purposes.)
Joshua 1:3 Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given to you, as I said to Moses.
Below, please note v 23 - 'mine Angel shall go before thee and bring thee to...' v 24 - 2 Corinthians 10:4, 5. God intends us to conquer. Amen.
Exodus 23:20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. 22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy to thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries. 23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in to the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off. 24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images. 25 And ye shall serve the Lord your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.
26 There shall nothing cast their young, nor be barren, in thy land: the number of thy days I will fulfil. 27 I will send my fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee. 28 And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee. 29 I will not drive them out from before thee in one year; lest the land become desolate, and the beast of the field multiply against thee. 30 By little and little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land. 31 And I will set thy bounds from the Red sea even unto the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert unto the river: for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and thou shalt drive them out before thee. 32 Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. 33 They shall not dwell in thy land, lest they make thee sin against me: for if thou serve their gods, it will surely be a snare unto thee.
But that is only one side of the picture. What God does not mention here, is that they had left Egypt with their idols in their hearts, and carried openly with their goods. Their readiness to make a golden calf is about to be tested, and they fail. All through their journey in the wilderness, the flesh gets them into trouble. You know the details, I'm sure. They were out of Egypt in one sense, but Egypt was still controlling them in others.
Acts 7:41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands. 42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness? 43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them ...'.
Acts 7:48, 49.
We need God's strength to deliver us from things to which previously we bowed down, or, were forced to bow through circumstance.
To other readers,
It is possible to resist the Holy Spirit, Acts 7:51 laying oneself open to the perils of Romans 1:18 - 32, but which, thankfully, is followed by Romans 2, in which Paul makes clear there is a way back to God from a reprobate mind, or a conscience seared as with a hot iron, through repentance v 4.
I do not interpret the incident to which you refer, as Peter being possessed by Satan in the way the rest of the discussion is about whether a person who becomes a Christian is automatically delivered from all the demons they may have been communing with before they believed.
But, the issue which is common to both, which is what Jesus pointed out to Peter, is a matter of the heart, or, the heart of the matter. Even though the Father had revealed to Peter that Jesus was the Messiah and 'the Son of the living God', Peter's heart had undergone no deep and permanent changes. He was still viewing everything from a fallen human point of view - Satan's point of view - self-preservation.
Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to show to his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. 22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be to thee. 23 But he turned, and said to Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Another way to read Jesus' words, is that Peter's words (straight from the heart of Satan) were a temptation to Jesus to lay aside His heavenly agenda, and cater to His flesh, in the same way as Satan had tempted Him in the wilderness. Luke 4:1 - 13. The Lord dare not dwell on the meaning of what had come out of Peter's mouth; He had to press on with the mission on which He had been sent by our heavenly Father.
And so do we.
Hello Rex,
Thank you for your further thoughts. :) May the Lord bless you as He is blessing me through this wider study.
If you have accepted that Jesus entering the Temple is a metaphor for what happens when a person believes into Christ, and He enters their life through the Holy Spirit, can you not leave it in His hands to lead the person through whatever deliverance they need?
You asked for more scripture, and I would point you to the several lists of sins in the epistles of Paul. If every demon had left the lives of all the believers in those churches, why was Paul urging them to abstain from sins of the flesh? We cannot fail to note that Paul never suggested they weren't 'true believers' in the opening verses of the epistles where sins of the flesh are mentioned by name. In fact, he specifically commends them for Godly attributes they were manifesting - such as gifts of the Spirit and Christian charity - while at the same time rebuking them where they had gone astray. The only time he talks about them receiving 'another spirit' is with regard to permutations away from the pure gospel that he had already preached to them. The strongholds, imaginations, and high things which exalt themselves in competition with the knowledge of Christ, to which he refers in 2 Corinthians 10, which are brought down by weapons which 'are not carnal' (that is, spiritual weapons), are of spiritual origin for sure:
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
For a moment, you are thinking you have an answer to this quote: 'Ah!' You say, 'But those spiritual powers were all outside him.' If so, what does this verse mean?
2 Corinthians 7:5 For, when we were come into Macedonia, our flesh had no rest, but we were troubled on every side; without were fightings, within were fears.
And why does he follow that with the word, 'Nevertheless ...'?
And why, with respect to fear, does John use the phrase, 'casts out' in 1 John 4:18, adding, 'because fear has torment'? And, 'He that fears is not made perfect in love'? John is not saying that a person cannot be made perfect in love, but that fear must be dealt with for perfection to pertain.
Hebrews 2:14 '... he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
The battle we experience as Christians is on many sides all at the same time. Not only are our minds assailed from without by thoughts which we have never had before sometimes, but we have our own thoughts with which we are very familiar, to sift through with the help of the Holy Spirit, and, we have to distinguish between what came from outside and what we have always thought or had a particular view. Often our views are well-founded on our own experience, and they enable us to make progress both in natural life and spiritually, but that doesn't mean they are on a par with God's mind. ('I understood as a child'. 1 Corinthians 13:11) But that is where He is trying to take us - to a realm of heavenly reasoning. In that respect, putting on the armour of God is not an external thing, but about one's heart and mind. It is about faith, truth, righteousness, faithfulness, good attitudes towards others, perseverance, endurance, trust (of God), discipline and purity. Anything in a saint's life which does not embrace these values fully, will be searched out by the fiery darts of the wicked one, and the Lord allows us to be stung by them, to show us where we are weak - in sin, need healing, or... in the case of some, plainly in bondage and needing deliverance. It is no shame to go through with God on any of these points. His aim is to restore us to more than Adam lost, and most people never face up to their own shortcomings, echoing Moses' plea, 'Let me not see my wretchedness'.
Regarding the brother I mentioned. He may be willing to come here to give his own testimony about it. I will ask him.
Many years ago, when my life was a mess - after I was born again - I read in a book about how the Lord allows people (who are not yet as 'sorted' as they will be, one day when the Lord has restored them to a greater degree of glory) to serve Him, and He uses them through the leading and gifts of the Holy Spirit. The verse which was given to explain this, is in the story of the ten lepers who asked Jesus for healing, and He sent them on their way before they were completely healed. The important thing was that they had turned to Him in expectation that He could do what they asked. In their case, healing would restore them to family and society and God. Isn't this the same for all outcasts? Luke 14:23
Luke 17:14 '... And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed. That is, they were obedient to the Lord's command.
There must be many Christians who have a form of godliness on the outside, who never admit they are 'not okay' on the inside, because they have imported to their Christianity, the world's expectation that to be acceptable to God, they have to put on a good show. So, they pull out all the stops, and keep going and keep going and keep going in their own strength, even blaming God when the going gets tough, not recognising that He allows pressures to mount, to bring them to an end of their own strength. In God's economy, He still uses them at the same time, and continues to work in areas of their life where He has free access. It is not until the crisis He has been cultivating, that they 'see' how certain things connected together to produce in them a certain response, which is not Godly, and is longer either tenable or viable. Suddenly, its shortcomings and one's own shortcomings, all come into the light of God's gaze when help is sought from Him. He has been waiting patiently to deal with these things, and a changed attitude on the part of the believer enables Him to minister to these deeper needs.
Our resistance to receiving from Him can be astonishing, considering we have received from Him before and have proved Him faithful. This resistance is a function of the strength of the flesh and the mind of the flesh, and is a haunt of demons. They have not utterly controlled, like those who were thrown into fire and water, but if we are honest, we have had to work with the Lord to resist the fires and falling into the water, not understanding that the strength of certain tempations is superhuman. But, we find, not super-God's. Amen and amen!
In scripture is another metaphor for this picture of the land of a person's life being taken back by Him, little by little. It is laid out in gory glory, in the book of Joshua, fulfilling the promises God made to Moses in Exodus. This is captured in one simple promise -
Deuteronomy 11:24 Every place whereon the soles of your feet shall tread shall be yours: from the wilderness and Lebanon, from the river, the river Euphrates, even unto the uttermost sea shall your coast be. (Jesus was taking back the Temple for Himself and God's purposes.)
Joshua 1:3 Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given to you, as I said to Moses.
Below, please note v 23 - 'mine Angel shall go before thee and bring thee to...' v 24 - 2 Corinthians 10:4, 5. God intends us to conquer. Amen.
Exodus 23:20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. 22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy to thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries. 23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in to the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off. 24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images. 25 And ye shall serve the Lord your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.
26 There shall nothing cast their young, nor be barren, in thy land: the number of thy days I will fulfil. 27 I will send my fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee. 28 And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee. 29 I will not drive them out from before thee in one year; lest the land become desolate, and the beast of the field multiply against thee. 30 By little and little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land. 31 And I will set thy bounds from the Red sea even unto the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert unto the river: for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and thou shalt drive them out before thee. 32 Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. 33 They shall not dwell in thy land, lest they make thee sin against me: for if thou serve their gods, it will surely be a snare unto thee.
But that is only one side of the picture. What God does not mention here, is that they had left Egypt with their idols in their hearts, and carried openly with their goods. Their readiness to make a golden calf is about to be tested, and they fail. All through their journey in the wilderness, the flesh gets them into trouble. You know the details, I'm sure. They were out of Egypt in one sense, but Egypt was still controlling them in others.
Acts 7:41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands. 42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness? 43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them ...'.
Acts 7:48, 49.
We need God's strength to deliver us from things to which previously we bowed down, or, were forced to bow through circumstance.
To other readers,
It is possible to resist the Holy Spirit, Acts 7:51 laying oneself open to the perils of Romans 1:18 - 32, but which, thankfully, is followed by Romans 2, in which Paul makes clear there is a way back to God from a reprobate mind, or a conscience seared as with a hot iron, through repentance v 4.
Include these thoughs in yours and Justins conversation about Peters possession
Even though the HS had not yet been given, they were with the lamb and protected.
Sifting like wheat--> demon possession? Sounds more like you confuse being tested and strengthened as possession.
James 1:2-4
1Peter 1:6-7
Romans 5:3-4
Luke 21
15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict. 16 You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers[c] and relatives and friends, and some of you they will put to death. 17 You will be hated by all for my name's sake. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 By your endurance you will gain your lives.
John 10
“I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
Luke 22
“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat,
John 17:12
While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
Even though the HS had not yet been given, they were with the lamb and protected.
Sifting like wheat--> demon possession? Sounds more like you confuse being tested and strengthened as possession.
James 1:2-4
1Peter 1:6-7
Romans 5:3-4
Luke 21
15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict. 16 You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers[c] and relatives and friends, and some of you they will put to death. 17 You will be hated by all for my name's sake. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 By your endurance you will gain your lives.
John 10
“I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
Luke 22
“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat,
John 17:12
While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
I do not believe a Christian can be possessed by demons or devils but I do believe their can be Satanic strongholds and influences in a believer that must be broken by the blood of Jesus, the pwoer of the Holy Ghost and other deliverance processes. Possession is ownership which no Christian if they are truly a Christian can be owned by anyone excpet the Lord Jesus Christ yet we as Christians can be influenced and have satanic strongholds in our lives that need to be broken.
Exactly!
Usually, they were there before the person became a Christian, but one can squander one's inheritance and end up in a pig pen, before one comes to one's senses, spiritually speaking. At that moment of repentance, one understands completely that one is n the pig pen entirely because of a series of choices one has made apart from God's guidance.
dragonfly said:
Brillian point! They were already in the land. And it coheres perfectly with the analogy in the physical realm in the OT.
When Israel was delivered from Egypt and came into the "land" there were already enemies in the land and God would instruct Israel to drive them all out.
Exo 23:29 I will not drive them out from before thee in one year; lest the land become desolate, and the beast of the field multiply against thee.
The verse above reminds me of:
Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
Mat 12:44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
Mat 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
The walk of sanctification does not take place all in one day.
Exo 23:30 By little and little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land.
God's Holy Spirit will illuminate areas of our lives where we must make a stand and drive out what the Lord reveals to us.
Exo 23:31 And I will set thy bounds from the Red sea even unto the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert unto the river: for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and thou shalt drive them out before thee.
Christians don't realize how they come into agreement with the powers of darkness. It takes place when one turns away from the words of God and is willing to receive a word from them and then act upon it (sin). You make a covenant with idols/gods (which have spirits behind them) when you choose to come into agreement with the thoughts they are whispering into your ears. You manifest your agreement with the powers of darkness when you sin. Exo 23:32 Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods.
I find this next verse interesting in that God is actually saying if you allow the inhabitants to stay in your land, they will make you sin against Me. They will be a snare to Israel.
Sure, everyone is responsible for their own sin, but if they allow the enemy to build "strongholds" in their life (dwell in thy land) then they will make you sin against God. The more control and influence they obtain over one, the more they are able to easily influence them or "steer" them into rebellion and sin. Of course, the responsibility is always on the one that is choosing to live with the "inhabitants (which represent sin and the powers of darkness) and not driving them out of the land. We cannot blame the Devil.
Exo 23:33 They shall not dwell in thy land, lest they make thee sin against me: for if thou serve their gods, it will surely be a snare unto thee.
Axehead
Dear All,
Have any of you that are talking about demonic possession dealt face to face with this type of thing? Theories about what demons can and cannot do in Christians which are not borne out by reality really do not help out a lot when a person is possessed. In the real world possession is just an extreme form of demonic infestation. With possession a person fades to the background and the demon takes them over to carry out their will. This is what happens in many terrible crimes. Most people have some control over the demons in them and they can decide not to do what the demon is goading them to do if they choose. Sometimes you will see demons take over older people just before they die due to their minds losing control through some type of physical or mental illness.
Have any of you that are talking about demonic possession dealt face to face with this type of thing? Theories about what demons can and cannot do in Christians which are not borne out by reality really do not help out a lot when a person is possessed. In the real world possession is just an extreme form of demonic infestation. With possession a person fades to the background and the demon takes them over to carry out their will. This is what happens in many terrible crimes. Most people have some control over the demons in them and they can decide not to do what the demon is goading them to do if they choose. Sometimes you will see demons take over older people just before they die due to their minds losing control through some type of physical or mental illness.
Then that is where the gift of discernment and a word of wisdom and knowledge comes in. In a Holy Spirit filled believer God can give a word of knowledge into the situation and state of a person who is demonically possessed or influenced or struggling with Satanic strongholds and then God can also send a word of wisdom to help the person or peoples who have received the word of knowledge on how and what to do with freeing the person from the influence and power of the demonic spirit. The gift of discernment should already be working though to give by revelation on that there is something wrong or contrary going on in a person bound. Then you go into a deliverance process either of casting the devil out, prayer counseling, emotional counseling or even psychological counseling. Not all demons need to be cast out by exorcism or laying on of hands some will break by fasting and prayer, emotional healing and sometimes even psychological help. Satanic spirits can harm a person in their mind, heart, emotions, physical body, soul and spirit. Thus treatment and deliverance has several methods but if Jesus and His blood and the power of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God is not applied and the foundation then deliverance can not and will not take place.Justin Mangonel said:
I don't know what your all talking about but this is what I believe
In Col 1:13 Paul says God “delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son.” Salvation brings true deliverance and protection from Satan. In Romans 8:37 Paul says we overwhelmingly conquer through Christ. In 1 Cor 15:57 he says God gives us the victory. In 2 Cor2:14 he says God always leads us in triumph. In 1 John 2:13 John says we have overcome the evil one. And, in 1 John 4:4, he says the indwelling Holy Spirit is greater than Satan. How could anyone affirm those glorious truths, yet believe demons can indwell genuine believers?
In Col 1:13 Paul says God “delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son.” Salvation brings true deliverance and protection from Satan. In Romans 8:37 Paul says we overwhelmingly conquer through Christ. In 1 Cor 15:57 he says God gives us the victory. In 2 Cor2:14 he says God always leads us in triumph. In 1 John 2:13 John says we have overcome the evil one. And, in 1 John 4:4, he says the indwelling Holy Spirit is greater than Satan. How could anyone affirm those glorious truths, yet believe demons can indwell genuine believers?
I don't recall Jesus promising an easy time in this world
And He will make you walk and be changed, thats the problem in my opinion people resist, they want to stand firm and then wonder why they don't experience victory after victory, mostly because they like it the way it is, they won't grow. IMO thats exactly why I believe the "church" is going to go threw the tribulation. Its a test of faith. Start stripping away the comfort zone of professing believers, loss a job the house or car got repossessed, that's where the rubber meets the road.
Thats where your faith kicks in or you fall flat on your face.
Paul understood he rejoiced in hardship not a popular message in the pulpit today. He understood what it means to be dependent on Christ.
Do Christians today see being tested as demon possession ---> something they need to be delivered from?
I believe they just might. Peoples security today is in printed paper president, that's the security of the world not Christ! They wrap themselves in it and say God has blessed me, Hes looking out for me. I disagree.
2 Cor 9-10
9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
People don't want to be week they want a hand full of strong security instead. And that's exactly what they work for.
I beg you to read these verses
James 1:2-4
1Peter 1:6-7
Romans 5:3-4
And my post
And He will make you walk and be changed, thats the problem in my opinion people resist, they want to stand firm and then wonder why they don't experience victory after victory, mostly because they like it the way it is, they won't grow. IMO thats exactly why I believe the "church" is going to go threw the tribulation. Its a test of faith. Start stripping away the comfort zone of professing believers, loss a job the house or car got repossessed, that's where the rubber meets the road.
Thats where your faith kicks in or you fall flat on your face.
Paul understood he rejoiced in hardship not a popular message in the pulpit today. He understood what it means to be dependent on Christ.
Do Christians today see being tested as demon possession ---> something they need to be delivered from?
I believe they just might. Peoples security today is in printed paper president, that's the security of the world not Christ! They wrap themselves in it and say God has blessed me, Hes looking out for me. I disagree.
2 Cor 9-10
9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
People don't want to be week they want a hand full of strong security instead. And that's exactly what they work for.
I beg you to read these verses
James 1:2-4
1Peter 1:6-7
Romans 5:3-4
And my post
Rex said:
And God delivered the Hebrew children from the hand of Pharoah (kingdom of darkness) but there was a walk for them to walk in the wilderness (world) for them to apprehend the Promised Land (the promises of God, victory over their own sin and the nations (powers of darkness) . With God they are overwhelmingly victorious but when they turn away from God His hedge of protection came down and they were chastised by the Lord as He used the the nations (powers of darkness) to correct the Hebrew children. How could God deliver them from the kingdom of darkness and bring them into a "land" and then tell them there were many enemies in the land that they had to drive out? Yet, that is exactly what He said to them. The enemies in the physical land back then are a type of the "enemy" in the "land" today. The "land" today is us, but the enemies are not necessarily always spirits but could be. Whatever is in our heart that keeps us from walking in true faith and fellowship with the Lord is an enemy that must be driven out.Rex said:
Revelation and experience are needed. Many in the Church today are being destroyed (Great Falling Away) because they don't understand the walk of sanctification and that there are enemies in the land that must be driven out. They are not taught anything about their Adversary, by modern "Theology". Paul the Apostle said, "We are not ignorant of his devices", yet the Church is very ignorant, today.
Just like in Deut_9:3 the Lord will go before us as a consuming fire and destroy our enemies as we face them head on with faith in in the Lord. Enemies of fear, worry, insecurity, rejection, etc., etc. We are more than conquerors through Him who loved us and we are to go up and possess the land of our mind and will and emotions and to possess our body in honor. We are to go up and take back all the land. Our wills being strengthened by the Lord and our mind renewed and totally under our control yet submitted to the Holy Spirit, able to cast down vain imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and in control of our emotions rather than our emotions being manipulated by the powers of darkness and instead controlling us.
Deut_9:3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.
Deut_9:4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
The Lord and all His goodness and liberty and light is our Promised Land and yet there is a battle within us to apprehend that for which we were apprehended. Every obstacle to fellowship and intimacy with Jesus Christ must be removed (destroyed). Everything high thing (idol) that hinders us from walking in obdedience to the Lord must torn down.
The ministry of Jesus Christ as exemplified below, is also the ministry of every Christian that bears Christ.
Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
Isa 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
If we are to walk like this, then we must become a vessel meet for the Master's use.
