Do Demon's Dwell Within Christians?

[dragonfly]

Wow, I did not know I had a school.

You don't.

The Lord does, though.... ^_^

Now that you have given me a summery I see your point.

Rex, thanks.

In the picture of being born again, getting rid of unwanted attachments is a bit like deliverance from and disposal of the afterbirth.


Justin,

Another scriptural picture is of the Israelites trying to take the land, after the undeniable miracle of crossing Jordan on dry land, when it was in flood.

The difference is - all the way up to Satan in Peter and Judas - that the Holy Ghost was not yet given, and four generations later David was still trying to conquer the heart (Jebus) of dry rock (stone) which we now call Zion. He spent most of his life tidying up the edges, so that by the time the throne passed to Solomon (Prince of peace, flesh conquered) the whole territory given by God to Abraham, had been retaken.

They did what they could without the indwelling Holy Spirit. That is an inescapable detail.

But we see the Lord battled for us on the cross, successfully crushing the enemy's head - like David's first stone, which laid the giant to the ground within our reach. We still have to go forward, and with a great sword actively sever his head completely. Thus, we experience our own victories, manifesting the new heart - a heart circumcised by Christ through faith - which desires righteousness through and through, and the new spirit - the Holy Spirit - the Spirit of truth and enabling (grace), by which we are able to walk - away from the sinful desires of the flesh where demons may reside.

Demons do not reside in the spirit of a man, although they affect his mind; rather, by sin and self being appeased, they attach themselves to the flesh.

I believe a Christian has no permission to entertain demons. No matter the context or reason for their being ensconced in the physical temple, I believe God intends us to yield the whole land - building and rooms therein - of our life, to Christ, and refuse to yield to the enemy.

Romans 13:10 Love works no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.
11 And that, knowing the time, that now [it is] high time to awake out of sleep: for now [is] our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof].


Luke 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.


Ephesians 5: 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove [them].
12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
14 Wherefore he says, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.


There are many exhortations in the NT about ceasing from sin, walking as children of the light, putting off the old man and putting on the new man.

There is no room for complacency in the life of the Christian who is aware he is resisting the flesh to walk in the Spirit.

And if he's not resisting the flesh, Paul is clear: that person will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: ...'

Paul wrote that to Spirit-filled Christians, whom he was exhorting to stay free from the sins (unrighteousness) which used to dog their lives.


There is an assumption in scripture, around the matter of repentance. Repentance is supposed to mark a moment of decision to cease from sin as well as a godly sorrow for sin, which, together, ought to result in active resistance to sinning, and, to give room to inner healing from sin - restoration of the soul, healing of the wounded spirit. These are all part of the expansion of the kingdom of God within the believer's life. 2 Cor 10:3 - 6

 

[Risen Angel]

Where there is light no darkness can be found. Only shadows.

 

[dragonfly]

On looking over this thread again, I see there is a tendancy amongst posters to assume that the Christian who is being delivered from demons by the Lord, through His powerful name and the help of the Holy Spirit, was wholly responsible for their presence in his life.

While this can be true, it is also true that children are naturally vulnerable to demonic attachment, and, they are completely powerless against the sheer physical size of adults who have power to attach demons to them by unholy behaviour, such as through occult ritual and/or (particularly) sexual abuse. An adult who has never dealt with their spiritual heredity or past, or who has been wounded in childhood by complex and repeated assaults on their physical and spiritual integrity, needs the deliverance and healing which comes through Jesus Christ. And they don't need the disapprobation of fellow-Christians while they go through that process.

When the Lord baptises a believer in the Holy Spirit, the whole balance of spiritual power in their life, changes from the unassailable strength of the powers of darkness over them, to the powers of the kingdom of light and the new creation in Christ Jesus. Their mind and body will experience initial healing as much as they can tolerate humanly speaking, but they must keep going on in obedience to the Lord, being renewed in the spirit of their minds, trusting the Lord to continue and complete the work He has begun. As the believer pursues righteousness, demons clear off.

There are many other kinds of demon, than those who seek the wounded soul and mind to inhabit and perpetuate historical pain. There is a demon for every shade of ungodly desire which finds expression in a Christian's life. the difference in demonic influence over a person is the degree to which they are aware of what they are doing, and their understanding of the implications of continuing to do it. If they are aware, and have deliberately gone after the expression of the sins to which they are tempted, then God will let them reap the reward (corruption) of that behaviour. I do not believe in OSAS, so that means I believe a Christian should be walking in the light as He is in the light, so that the blood of Jesus Christ can cleanse them from all sin. But God is not mocked. He is looking for genuine repentance from every ungodly act, and by that repentance He is able to establish resistance against sins previously enjoyed, as long as the Christian's heart and mind is tuning-in and willing to cleave to God's attitudes.

James 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith works patience. 4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. 5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that gives to all men liberally, and upbraids not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavers is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Luke 12: ... 28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith? 29 And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind. 30 For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knows that ye have need of these things.

31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you. 32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that fail not, where no thief approaches, neither moth corrupts. 34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; 36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he comes and knocks, they may open to him immediately.

As I see it, there is no question of the power of the Lord to deliver a person from demons, even before they have formally become 'a Christian'. The NT is full of such testimony. The same applies to God's power to heal. We have no record of Jesus bargaining with people over whether they will follow Him afterwards, before He delivers or heals them.

And, there is no demon, nor number of demons, which can prevent a person from coming to Christ. Their 'will' - that is, the overriding desire of their inner heart - is free to do that, even if they are still in bondage to the destructive behaviours which cause them to seek deliverance.

Mark 5:1 And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes. 2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, 3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains: 4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him. 5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones. 6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him.

 

[Rex]

I personally don't believe that someone that is indwelt with the Holy Spirit can be possessed by demons "unclean spirits reside within.

I'll post some verses to illustrate

We are the temple of God 1 Cor 3:16

Here is an illustration of someone having unclean spirit removed, but don't now have the Holy Spirit residing within "an empty house".

Matthew 12
43 “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. 44 Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.”
Also found in Luke 11:24-26

What is the condition of someone that has receive the HS and turned away.

2 Peter
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped[d] from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,”[e] and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

Stronger words
Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[b] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

In my opinion those Christians that claim to be delivered from unclean spirits "devils" "demons" repeatedly,
are in some way confused. My guess is they have never received the Holy Spirit, most that believe in christian possession are also found in Pentecostal type miniseries, Some I've watched believe that every weakness in a man is the result of demons that need to be cast out, I again personally think its a cop out, it implies the possessed is a victim, when we are told by our own desires we are lead away.
Those who have the HS residing within and then succumb to possession, well the scripture says in Hebrews there is not much hope for them, and Peter says it would have been better to not have known the truth to begin with. I doubt this is the case with the christian possession phenomena.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Rex,

Without doubt there's confusion in churches where victory over sin is not preached or practised. And I agree with you here:

Some I've watched believe that every weakness in a man is the result of demons that need to be cast out, I again personally think its a cop out, it implies the possessed is a victim, when we are told by our own desires we are lead away.

At the same time, there are some people who are genuinely unable to work out whether they need deliverance or healing or both, and others who are completely clear about what's wrong with them (if they need either deliverance or healing). Some Christians have come from families which practise the occult openly, and others have no idea why they have not experienced the freedom which was preached to them with the gospel.

Every person is an individual whom God wants to release into the fulness of His life and health, and overcoming power. All I'm saying (really), is that some people need more aftercare than others, and that no-one is ever going to get spiritually free, without the Holy Spirit's help.

Because of the amount of ignorance about what Christ won for us on the cross, and the misinterpretations which are preached, and the huge swathe of doctrine which teaches that victory over sin cannot happen in this world, there are many dear people who think they have to live with their pain, others who think they are allowed to continue in sin while claiming to be 'saved', many more who don't believe in Satan or demons, and those who have never heard of the different kinds of healing which the Lord can adminster to the soul. Being delivered can be a simple matter of coming to the Lord, or, it can be a longer process of being convicted of wrong attitudes and practises as a result of having been born again.

I hope I said earlier in the thread somewhere, that 'possession' is not an ideal word, even for a person who has not received the Holy Spirit. I think you are bringing a doctrinal position rather than an acknowledgement the human reality of getting free from other spirits with the help of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit brings the presence of Christ into the believer's life, and with Him comes the power to live free from both sin and demons, but the believer has to do the daily reality of obeying the Lord, being led by the Holy Spirit, and remaining grafted into His death with regard to sin - not yielding his members to sin but to righteousness - for full deliverance to become his tried and tested reality. Remember, after Jesus had cleared the Temple, He refused to let anything else be brought back in. Amen. There is no picture in scripture of a person getting free from demons without either the Lord or a disciple commanding them to leave, or, of Him in the Temple driving out the previous occupants. Matthew 24:14.

That said, demons to not 'dwell in' the same 'place' in a person, as the Holy Spirit, and in that respect the 'picture' of the Temple lacks absolute precision. Before the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost, we have several clear statements in the OT, which demonstrate the power of other spirits, to draw people into behaviour which ensnares them, and, the discussion in the Corinthian letters about both demons and sins.

Without doubt (in my mind) there are interior relationships between attitudes, obedience, and spiritual dangers, and only God can unpick a person safely in such a way as to deal with these complexities, and this happens as they continue and grow in communion with Him.

Exodus 23:28 And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee. 29 I will not drive them out from before thee in one year; lest the land become desolate, and the beast of the field multiply against thee. 30 By little and little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land. 31 And I will set thy bounds from the Red sea even unto the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert unto the river: for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and thou shalt drive them out before thee. 32 Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. 33 They shall not dwell in thy land, lest they make thee sin against me: for if thou serve their gods, it will surely be a snare unto thee.

I do believe this is an important topic, because for Christians who need deliverance and healing, who didn't hear this part of the gospel when they first heard Jesus Christ preached, it is a tragedy if prejudice and ignorance leaves them in that weakened state for the rest of their natural lives. I can easily accept that you may never have met people who need this kind of help after coming to Christ. Sometimes one's calling by-passes a whole area of ministry in which others are working.

 

[Axehead]

When the demons told Jesus to cast them into the pigs, why were they looking for a body to dwell in? We know they did not want to be cast into outer darkness and from this scripture we can deduce that they can inhabit a BODY.

Mar_5:12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.

Two of the biggest questions today, seem to be tied to wanting to be impervious to evil by only reciting a creed or a prayer. Nothing to do with carrying your cross or putting to death the deeds of the flesh. Just say some "magic" words and you are now protected from hell and demons. What are these two questions?

"Can Christians have demons" and "Can Christians lose their salvation?"

And you get all kinds of answers, especially the ones that imply the Christian is covered by some invisible force field where no matter what sin he engages in nothing can lodge on or in him. That's incredible isn't it? Like we are some kind of superhero or something. But, Paul likens that kind of thinking to Jesus being the minister (accomplice) of sin in our lives.

Why think about it, we can engage in pornography and all kinds of concupiscence and lasciviousness (get a dictionary) and we are protected. Ahh, it's great to be filled with the Spirit, isn't it? Why, we are told about a spirit of jealousy in Numbers 5:14, but we don't have to worry about that, because we have a force field, today. Adultery, no big deal, God forgives sin, doesn't He. Spirit of Murder (hatred in my heart), surely that is not too big for God to forgive? How about a spirit of homosexuality, or whoredom as in Hosea 4:12?

Luke_4:33 And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice,

There are a lot of unclean spirits around today, aren't there? How many of you out there have been touched by one, or couldn't even "shake" one without some serious repentance and prayer?

Let me ask you a question? If an unbeliever can open himself up to anything from the powers of darkness, why can't a Believer? Of course more often than not, an unbeliever does not know what he is doing, not knowing that sin allows an entrance for the powers of darkness in his life. But the Christian should know this, right? Wrong. False teaching today has bred a spirit of slumber and false security upon the Church, today where many are living like their unbelieving friends.

So, why would sin work any differently with Christians? Especially, if demons are only looking for a body because they can't join themselves to a spirit. Could this explain why so many Christian's spirit is oppressed, because they have made a home somewhere in their body for unclean, demonic spirits? Think about it?

Why is there so much sin, adultery, fornication, jealousy, anger, envy, greed, pride and sickness in the Church, today? Why the Church has become a dwelling place of demons hasn't it? And you know why? False teaching which brings false security and a spirit of slumber. Yep, the Word even mentions a spirit of slumber.

Why we think today that we can do anything and nothing can touch us. That my friends is the fruit of false teaching. You can do anything you want and not lose your salvation and you can open yourself up to the powers of darkness by engaging in unclean and vulgar things and not receive an unclean spirit.

WoW!! We should be the fastest growing religion in the world. Come to Jesus, and you will get your own personal force field for life.

...there is a serious problem in the church today and a lot of deliverance is needed. The church has been taught that sickness is a blessing from God to work character in us, so we never stop to think that maybe we are suffering from sickness because of the habitual sin we are currently engaged in. I am not saying all sickness is because of sin, but certainly some is.

We don't know how this woman got her "spirit of infirmity", we just know that she had one.
Luk_13:11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.

The Powers of Darkness are ravaging the Church, today and the Church is extremely naive concerning sin. If they only knew or were taught that demons ride the rails of sin into one's life, there would be much more hatred of sin and many more walking in holiness. But, we have been taught that "no one's perfect" and "don't try to be perfect" because "God forgives" so "why are you so hard on yourself, everyone needs to enjoy themselves". So there you have it.

When someone asks me "Can a Christian have a demon"? I say, he can have whatever he asks for. If you don't believe me, look around at the church, today. You can start with the leadership.

Time to get real! Ananias and Sapphira, because of their greed made a nice home in themselves for that lying spirit.

Time to get real, Church and stop playing religion.

Axehead

 

[Rex]

The collective teaching of Scripture is that demons can never spatially indwell a true believer. A clear implication of 2 Corinthians 6, for example, is that the indwelling Holy Spirit could never cohabit with demons:


What harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, “I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people” (vv. 15–16).


In Col 1:13 Paul says God “delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son.” Salvation brings true deliverance and protection from Satan. In Romans 8:37 Paul says we overwhelmingly conquer through Christ. In 1 Cor 15:57 he says God gives us the victory. In 2 Cor 2:14 he says God always leads us in triumph. In 1 John 2:13 John says we have overcome the evil one. And, in 4:4, he says the indwelling Holy Spirit is greater than Satan. How could anyone affirm those glorious truths, yet believe demons can indwell genuine believers?
=================================================================

Many of the leading voices in today’s spiritual warfare movement are too quick to hail every profession of faith in Christ as proof of salvation. That reflects the easy-believism that has swept this generation.
A thorough biblical understanding of the doctrine of conversion makes it clear that demons could never indwell or possess a believer. Jonathan Edwards wrote about true conversion:


Scripture describes conversion in terms which imply or signify a change of nature: being born again, becoming new creatures, rising from the dead, being renewed in the spirit of the mind, dying to sin and living to righteousness, putting off the old man and putting on the new, becoming partakers of the divine nature, and so on.



It follows that if there is no real and lasting change in people who think they are converted, their religion is worthless, whatever their experiences may be. Conversion is the turning of the whole man from sin to God. God can restrain unconverted people from sin, of course, but in conversion he turns the very heart and nature from sin to holiness. The converted person becomes the enemy of sin.



What, then, shall we make of a person who says he has experienced conversion, but whose religious emotions soon die away, leaving him much the same person as he was before? He seems as selfish, worldly, foolish, perverse and un-Christian as ever. This speaks against him louder than any religious experiences can speak for him.



In Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision, neither a dramatic experience nor a quiet one, neither a wonderful testimony nor a dull one, counts for anything. The only thing that counts is a new creation (The Experience That Counts! p. 99).
http://www.gty.org/resources/questions/QA191

 

[Justin Mangonel]

I have personally seen demons manifest out of pastors and Bible College teachers...I guess they didn't know the clear teaching of scripture. I wonder if I should believe your theology or what I saw with my own eys? Btw, if a demon speaks out of your mouth it is a pretty clear sign that it is in you.

 

[Rex]

I have personally seen demons manifest out of pastors and Bible College teachers...I guess they didn't know the clear teaching of scripture. I wonder if I should believe your theology or what I saw with my own eys? Btw, if a demon speaks out of your mouth it is a pretty clear sign that it is in you.

I expect you to do as you always do when scripture
contradicts your feel good religion--->> Ignore it.

Then you'll try to condemn us for being judgmental

How about you show me where a born again believer "Holy Spirit" man can be possessed in the bible or even a warning, an example would be fine.
And you can't use Peter because that was before Pentecost, the pouring out of the Spirit, you tried that one earlier in this thread I believe.

 

[Axehead]

You could conclude from looking at the Church that 98% of "Believers" are lost and not walking with God (that's what most people do) or you could conclude that many are in dire need of ministry that "sets the captives free". Ministry of proper teaching and prayer.

We have this picture of Israel (many times) in the OT of how the powers of darkness (driving the surrounding pagan nations) to invade Israel's borders and build strongholds in their land. Even though God was their God and they had the Ark of the Covenant and the tabernacle in the wilderness, they were still attacked, invaded and destroyed because of.....................sin.

Looking at Israel in the OT, it is easy to laugh at their self-pronouncement of being the "children of God", I suppose much in the same way that many laugh at Christians today who are walking in sin. But, it is usually the enemy, the adversary that is laughing and mocking them. God is not laughing and He knows just exactly how the children of Israel in the OT and Christians in the NT got themselves in the trouble that they are in. Sin! And He knows exactly what the way of deliverance is, too.

At some point, they needed to repent (sooner is always better, than later), but there was still one little problem. Their enemies had taken up residence in their land and needed to be driven out. What we learn from God's Word is that there is a place for crucifixion (bearing our cross) and there is a place for deliverance. Often, many are trying to crucify a demon and cast out the flesh. And that too, can be traced to wrong teaching.

Probably the biggest deception today in the Church is the nature and the work of the Enemy and the nature and effects of sin in a Believer's life. We only need to look at the Children of Israel, to be reminded.

So, when a Christian is walking in sin, the hedge of protection from God comes down (just like we see in the OT) and the powers of darkness are able to attack the Christian just as pagan nations attacked Israel. When Israel had enough of the attacks and repented and called upon God, then He delivered them from their enemies.

Satan did not respect Israel who would come into agreement with pagan nations around them and sin against God, and he won't respect the Christian who comes into agreement with him, either. It does not matter to him that you "prayed a prayer", or belong to the biggest church in town or that you speak in tongues and heal the sick.

What is the "land" today? What are the "borders", today? Where are "strongholds" built today? The demon spirits that were behind the Midianites, Girgashites, Amorites, Philistines, are still here today. They did not die. They have a lot of experience in seducing the children of God and gaining a foothold in their lives, and building strongholds.

What God has given us in the OT is a manual on Spiritual Warfare and how the enemy attacks and seeks to gain a foothold in the Church. It also shows us the way of deliverance. God is not hiding this information.

Axehead

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Rex,

I appreciate the stance you're taking, and I was blessed by your last post, although there is a huge amount of practical reality which it does not cover, which, (if you read my posts listening to what I'm saying, and thinking about what I'm saying), you will see is not incompatible with anything other than the idea that no 'true believer' could need to be released from bondages of demonic origin or association.

The picture in scripture, as I thought you'd acknowledged in the picture of Jesus entering the Temple while it was still full of ungodliness, has great similarities to 2 Kings 23, which is another pictorial version of what is going on when a sinner makes their very first move to Christ, while they are still 'a sinner'.

Please note the order of events and see the parallel practicalities even under the New Covenant.

2 Kings 23:2 And the king went up into the house of the Lord, and all the men of Judah and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem with him, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the people, both small and great: and he read in their ears all the words of the book of the covenant which was found in the house of the Lord. 3 And the king stood by a pillar, and made a covenant before the Lord, to walk after the Lord, and to keep his commandments and his testimonies and his statutes with all their heart and all their soul, to perform the words of this covenant that were written in this book. And all the people stood to the covenant. 4 And the king commanded Hilkiah the high priest, and the priests of the second order, and the keepers of the door, to bring forth out of the temple of the Lord all the vessels that were made for Baal, and for the grove, and for all the host of heaven: and he burned them without Jerusalem in the fields of Kidron, and carried the ashes of them unto Bethel 5 And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them also that burned incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven. 6 And he brought out the grove from the house of the Lord, without Jerusalem, unto the brook Kidron, and burned it at the brook Kidron, and stamped it small to powder, and cast the powder thereof upon the graves of the children of the people 7 And he brake down the houses of the sodomites, that were by the house of the Lord, where the women wove hangings for the grove.


2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh; 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds), 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.


I agree with you that a person who has turned away from every idolatry to worship God, should find themselves freed from all bondage. But the NT describes a process, too, and part of that is what I'm writing about.

 

[Axehead]

BigAndy is correct. The person who started the thread mentioned specifically that these demonic spirits were dwelling within the person.
There is no way that could be the case AND have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them.
Therefore, the person isn't really a Christian or has fallen away from the Christian faith and the Holy Spirit was grieved and departed.

Having said that, demonic spirits do indeed hover and attempt to influence Christians.
Christians have the power to rebuke those spirits and force them to depart by the power of the name of Jesus.

If they do not then the demonic influence can indeed grow in influence and - if they ignore the warnings of the Holy Spirit - eventually end up having the Holy Spirit depart and a demonic spirit take it's place within them.

Whether they dwell within or are attached without, God is not so fragile that He has to constantly flee and leave the subject to fend for himself.

When Israel was invaded countless times through their wicked sin, did God depart? He would certainly lower His hedge of protection but He was still available to deliver when Israel repented, turning from their wicked ways. I don't necessarily think the Lord withdraws from someone that is engaged in habitual sin, but they better not think they can take advantage of the grace and mercy of God, forever. He is longsuffering towards us and it should bring us to repentance before more serious measures have to take place.

Just as the Enemy is serious about killing and destroying the church ("kill, steal and destroy", yes, that was written to the church), the Lord is serious about giving those that turn to Him, deliverance and life.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Once you know that Demons indwell people to varying degrees some of the things they do make a whole lot more sense.

Just as Israel did not drive out all the ungodly nations before them so to people do not drive out all the darkness in their lives when they become Christians. Thus both dwell in the land.

 

[Rex]

And there lays the problem with comparing the OT a shadow of the things to come ------>> which is Christ
With the New Covenant

Hebrewa10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

As you can see by comparing the temple and Israel to the new mans birth threw Christ and sealed with the Holy Spirit has allowed Mr Justin to reintroduce his heresy that born of the Spirit Christians can be possessed. In such there is no evidence, or warnings about such a thing after Pentecost, the pouring out of the Spirit. http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/17051-do-demons-dwell-within-christians/#entry176787

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Hi all,

You know, having gone through a spiritual move of deliverance I can say for certain that demons indwell everyone to varying degrees. Most of the time these demons are kept under control and do not manifest themselves to the point of being obvious. People with varying forms of mental illness are sometimes just those who happen to be on the extreme end of the spectrum. This is what the gift of discerning of spirits is all about.

The problem is that most people do not believe they can have demons indwelling them and thus are defenseless against them because they think they are not so affected. Personally, I think that it is ludicrous for someone to assume that because the Holy Spirit dwells in them that they cannot be so afflicted by evils spirits. I know many people that say the Spirit dwells in them that don't act much different than unsaved people do...and sometimes even worse. If the Spirit made that much of a difference and was filling them to the extent that they have no room for anything evil I would think that they would exhibit much more of a holy character.

The fact of the matter is that we are all a work in progress and some of us are afflicted by demons who dwell within areas of our mind and body. What is needed is discernment of what these spirits are and deliverance so that we can be freed from these evil entities influencing us to do things we really don't want to do. This is what Paul was talking about when he was describing sin as a noun.

People who resist the notions of such things try to marshal scripture against it but I have seen with my own eyes that demons do in fact dwell within Christians. For me it is not just armchair theology but a reality of what actually took place with hundreds of people I knew. Faced with overwhelming evidence I had to admit that demons were residing in Christians. During deliverance they were speaking all manner of vile things from their mouths and many other manifestations were taking place that left no doubt in my mind that my theology that said such things could not take place was wrong. This I did what any sensible Christian would do in the face of such evidence…I changed my theology to fit what was actually taking place in front of me.

The importance of this revelation is that people can become delivered of these things and when they are they will find that the sin they struggled with for years will no longer have such a grip on them. The demons want to make you feel like you are bad and evil when in reality it is the demons that are pushing you to sin. Once you get rid of them you can have victory over areas that seemed hopeless before. You will still have to stand against sin and choose not to do it but if you get rid of the demons inside you that have bound you it will be much easier to do so.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[Rex]

Perhaps

Hi all,

You know, having gone through a spiritual move of deliverance I can say for certain that demons indwell everyone to varying degrees.

Spoken like one that has never been down the narrow path. Never broken threw

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[b] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Jesus says you will never thirst again
John 4
13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

And speaking of enlightened, tasting the heavenly gift, and partaking of the HS look here its not an easy walk. and that exactly what many don't understand today;
Hebrews 10
32 But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; 34 for you had compassion on me[h] in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven.[i] 35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

37 “For yet a little while,
And He[j] who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the[k] just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”[l]

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

Once you've tasted the water, drank of the heavenly gift, received the promise of the Spirit the path is hard but your burden is light, I firmly believe this path is impossible to travel without first being enlightened.

Matthew 7
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Arm chair Christians today that consider a flat tire or losing their phone a trial or tribulation don't have a clue. If you have never forsaken the security of the world. Your job, your car, your retirement, a place to live and jumped off into the arms of the Lord you have never lived. Now that's the path and thats where you really see and know the Lord. I am speaking from experience, been there done that more than once. I have no fear of doing it again, that's the way I live my life.

Ecc 7:12
Wisdom is a shelter
as money is a shelter,
but the advantage of knowledge is this:
that wisdom preserves the life of its possessor.


You ever walk this walk Justin?
Luke 9
3 And He said to them, “Take nothing for the journey, neither staffs nor bag nor bread nor money; and do not have two tunics apiece.

 

[Spirit Covenant]

Demons can not come near true Christians except in possessing others. Those who have demons are not Christians. There are some who claim to be Christians who have demons but they are not Christians until the demons are gone. "Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Rex,

And there lays the problem with comparing the OT a shadow of the things to come ------>> which is Christ
With the New Covenant

You are still not thinking this through. All the scripture verses you post are fine. They are all true, and I don't deny any of them; but, you are still not dealing honestly with the interface between a person is not a believer, who turns to Christ.

At what point to any demons leave him?

 

[Rex]

Hi Rex,



You are still not thinking this through. All the scripture verses you post are fine. They are all true, and I don't deny any of them; but, you are still not dealing honestly with the interface between a person is not a believer, who turns to Christ.

At what point to any demons leave him?

You and AH are right the OT temple is a metaphor, I'm surprised by the numbers of people that believe this rubbish. There is nothing wrong at all about making the distinction. In fact it opens an opportunity to identify the attributes of the new covenant, that's something as well I think many "Christians" don't comprehend.

Mr Justin in all of his infinite wisdom is a fine example of not being able to draw the simple connection between pre Holy Spirit and post Holy Spirit.
Can such a person actually claim to be born of such a gift and not understand the elementary basics? Its doubt full, just as at this point in time Peter had not yet received the HS.

Justin said http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/17051-do-demons-dwell-within-christians/#entry173733
I know it is really unsettling to think that demons could indwell and Christian but I know from being around a lot of demonic deliverance that is the case. Also i think that this is supported by scripture. Jesus said to Peter, "Get thee behind me Satan." Satan was speaking through Peter.

They don't see and understand the progressive forward movement of God from Gen to Rev. In Mr Justin's example, its pretty clear he doesn't understand that threw the OT the spirit only rested on a few, it was never available en-mass, and you and I both know the dwelling place of God went from the holy of holies in the old temple to dwell within man. Just as Jesus drove out the money changers, Paul and Jesus both point out this is not an easy arm chair beer in your hand watching the game process {see my last post} If you have not experienced a struggle Just as Jacob wrestled threw the night then you may want to have a heart to heart talk with the Lord.

And BTW I'm sorry every post I make doesn't contain the complete breath and depth of Gods message.
Sometimes I prefer to focus on the segment, I presume some others have the knowledge to fill in the blanks.
Rather than being corrected for not affording every possible contingency, I focus on closing the holes in others presumption about scriptural truths.
As you can see the shadow of the OT has afforded an opportunity to expand knowledge, but its not the truth necessary to put this heresy to bed.
Whether people accept it and receive deliverance from it is the work of the HS not me, I'm simply watering the ground with the truth.

 

[Axehead]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZO4_MEjc4w