Did Jesus die on Friday?

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Ronald Nolette

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The counting of partial days is dubious. For one, we can't count Friday as a partial day because Friday was already finished before Jesus was placed in the tomb. Remember, we are counting the days and nights that Jesus was in the tomb. Jesus was dead three hours before the end of the day, but he didn't rest in the tomb until evening when the day was over. Friday was not a partial day. It was evening when Joseph laid Jesus in tomb. You can't count Friday in any scenario.


that is wrong! Jesus died 3PM and was buried before the Sabbath! YOu education is woefully lacking.

YOu may consider it dubious- but the Jews didn't too bad you reject what is history for your revisionist view!

But invest a little over $100 AND BUY THE FOLLOWING:

"Life and times of Jesus the Messiah" by Alfred Eddersheim. Messianic Jew who defended the faith in the 19th Century.

"Life of the Messiah from a Hebrew Perspective" by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum 4 vol. 20th and 21st Century teacher. This four volume set goes deeply into teh mindset and culture of first century Jews!
 

CadyandZoe

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that is wrong! Jesus died 3PM and was buried before the Sabbath! YOu education is woefully lacking.
I don't think I need to be attacked for you to make your point. But okay. I understand. I know that whenever someone attacks me personally, I must have given that person something to think about.

I mentioned the parable of the landowner. This parable gave me many clues as to how the Jews treat a day. Have you not read this parable? Before we get to that, let's look at another verse related to time.

John 11:9
Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world.


Jesus did not consider a partial day to be a full day. He tells you that there are twelve hours in a day. Did his disciples say, "It's okay Lord. You already worked 10 hours, that's just a full day to us." No. His question was rhetorical, expecting affirmative agreement. Of course there are twelve hours in a day. He knew it and so did they. Everyone knew the difference between a full day and a partial day.

Parable of the Landowner:
Read and review Matthew 20:1-16
Here Jesus tells a parable, a story drawn from everyday life. A landowner hires a crew to work his fields. Some he hires early in the morning; others he hires at various times throughout the day. Since this story is taken from everyday life, we can know something about how the first century Jewish people thought about time. The day is divided up into twelve hours beginning "early in the morning." (verse 20:1)

At the beginning of the day, the landowner agreed to pay his laborers a denarius for a full day's work. At the end of the day, when it came time to pay his workers, he decided to pay each of them the same. Every man, whether he worked 12 hours or one hour received a denarius. If Jewish culture considered a partial day to count as a full day, then the men had no complaint. But these men understood that if the landowner was fair and just, he would apportion each man's wage according to the number of hours he worked.

The landowner and the laborers all share a common understanding about fair labor, especially with regard to wages. But his argument is not based on fairness, i.e. those who work for more hours deserve more pay. His argument is based on his generosity. Those whom he hired in the morning should not be upset that he is paying the same wage to those whom he hired at the 11th hour.

My point is this. From the New Testament itself, we can see that neither Jesus, nor his disciples, nor his culture understand that a partial day is like a full day. We also see, from this parable that the day began early in the morning. What about the term "evening".

Consider Matthew 24:15. In that verse we discern that the term "evening" indicated the end of the day when folks gathered to relax and have dinner or supper. The day is over. When evening came the workers stopped working and the landowner gave them their wages. Evening is after sunset Mark 1:32; Evening is when Jesus and his disciples ate the Passover Matthew 26:20, Mark 14:17.

My point here is this. First century Jews employed the term "evening" to speak about the end of the day when all work had ceased, when people ate the main meal of the day, when people relaxed and held conversation, just before it was time for bed. Evening is not a partial day; evening comes after the day is spent and the night has begun.

Jesus died the ninth hour of the day but this is not the hour when he was placed in a tomb. According to Matthew, "When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph . . . who asked Pilate for the body of Jesus." This is not a partial day; the day was over. It was supper time. Joseph went to ask Pilate for the body of Jesus and surely this took time. What time was it when Jesus actually entered the tomb? The text doesn't say specifically, but we can be sure that the day was over and night had begun. There is no way to count Friday as a partial day because the day was already over.

YOu may consider it dubious- but the Jews didn't too bad you reject what is history for your revisionist view!

But invest a little over $100 AND BUY THE FOLLOWING:

"Life and times of Jesus the Messiah" by Alfred Eddersheim. Messianic Jew who defended the faith in the 19th Century.

"Life of the Messiah from a Hebrew Perspective" by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum 4 vol. 20th and 21st Century teacher. This four volume set goes deeply into teh mindset and culture of first century Jews!

So what? These men weren't there. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were eye witnesses to these events. If Eddersheim and Fruchtenbaum disagree with the apostles, I trust the apostles.
 

CadyandZoe

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go to a synagogue and get some education.
Well, I challenged you concerning the whereabouts of the women. You have no answer? I can see that you are basing your understanding on scholars rather than the scriptures. I guess I can't blame you for that, but I must caution you that scholars are double-minded. They work for pay and the work product of scholars can be influenced by doners, patrons, and the rich.
 

Ronald Nolette

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I don't think I need to be attacked for you to make your point. But okay. I understand. I know that whenever someone attacks me personally, I must have given that person something to think about.

Not an attack. A simple statement of fact. I am not even a little miffed with you. Just very blunt and direct!

I mentioned the parable of the landowner. This parable gave me many clues as to how the Jews treat a day. Have you not read this parable? Before we get to that, let's look at another verse related to time.

YOu take parables measuring time. But you need to talk to someJews to find out how Jews think! Do you go to a mechanic to learn heart surgery? Teh bible does not give all the cultural and lingiuostic idioms that Israel had in common conversation!


So what? These men weren't there. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were eye witnesses to these events. If Eddersheim and Fruchtenbaum disagree with the apostles, I trust the apostles.

so show me a passage where the apostles said a full day has to be the full 24 hours and then you have an argument! But these men take accoutns from the culture and post them.

If you choose not to believe or bother to find outr if you could be wrong. we are at an end here. I did the work, for I didnot bvelieve it either, until lI studied the culture and writigns of the culture!
 

Ronald Nolette

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Well, I challenged you concerning the whereabouts of the women. You have no answer? I can see that you are basing your understanding on scholars rather than the scriptures. I guess I can't blame you for that, but I must caution you that scholars are double-minded. They work for pay and the work product of scholars can be influenced by doners, patrons, and the rich.


And you are wrong as usual. Where are the woman? when specifically are you asking!

You spoke of them needing time to prepare the spices , but yet the Scriptures said they bought the spices late Saturday night! No time allowed there! Why? Because the only thing needed was to take the powders and mix them. That is not a time consuming procedure! Learning culture helps ius to better understand what is going on. Try it.

that videos whole argument is based on two things the speaker saw as intractable problems:

1. No time to prepare the spices.
Mark 16:1
And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. shows this is wrong!

See they were not embalming but anointing. NOt a complicated rocess or hard to prepare the mixture.

John 19:38-40
King James Version

38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.

39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.

40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.

this waqs the burial spices . Right at His burial.

Luke 23:56
And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

They rested on Saturday.
 

CadyandZoe

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Not an attack. A simple statement of fact. I am not even a little miffed with you. Just very blunt and direct!
You said that my education was woefully lacking. That is an insult brother, in case you didn't know.

YOu take parables measuring time. But you need to talk to someJews to find out how Jews think! Do you go to a mechanic to learn heart surgery? Teh bible does not give all the cultural and lingiuostic idioms that Israel had in common conversation!
Your analogy doesn't work. No Jew alive today can speak to the issue. My experts on Jewish culture are the apostles.

so show me a passage where the apostles said a full day has to be the full 24 hours and then you have an argument! But these men take accoutns from the culture and post them.
It doesn't work that way. It is up to you to prove your assertion. I already showed you, from scripture, that the Jews did NOT count a partial day as a whole day.

If you choose not to believe or bother to find outr if you could be wrong. we are at an end here. I did the work, for I didnot bvelieve it either, until lI studied the culture and writigns of the culture!
We haven't started yet. You are so focused on one issue you haven't gotten around to making sense of the timeline. Your view is in error because it doesn't work. Period.
 

CadyandZoe

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And you are wrong as usual. Where are the woman? when specifically are you asking!

You spoke of them needing time to prepare the spices , but yet the Scriptures said they bought the spices late Saturday night!
Mark says that the woman bought the spices "when the Sabbath was over". He doesn't mention night time. You are assuming it was night time, though it is dubious that the stores would be open Saturday night.

You are also assuming that the First day of Unleavened Bread was on a Saturday.

But you still only have one day. You can't count Friday or Sunday. Your math is way off.
 

Ronald Nolette

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You said that my education was woefully lacking. That is an insult brother, in case you didn't know.


Your analogy doesn't work. No Jew alive today can speak to the issue. My experts on Jewish culture are the apostles.

It doesn't work that way. It is up to you to prove your assertion. I already showed you, from scripture, that the Jews did NOT count a partial day as a whole day.


We haven't started yet. You are so focused on one issue you haven't gotten around to making sense of the timeline. Your view is in error because it doesn't work. Period.

And both out experts said Jesus died Friday. YO0u twist of grammar make work for the gullible, but not for me!

No you did not prove the jews did not count a partial day as a day. All you did was make a statement without facts to support it!

And you need to prove your assertion! You started this thread making a claim and then used false facts to prove your claim!

But you can prove me wrong by simply going to an English teacher! Show them the passage, tell them the Jews normal Sabbath was every Saturday and ask them if Jesus died on Friday or not!

1.Remember John calls it a high day
2. YOu say the Sabbath mentions refer directly to the .high day.

so I will post the passage according to your claim that the Sabbath refers to the feast and not Saturday the normal Sabbath!

John 19:31
King James Version

31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the HIGH DAY, (for that HIGH DAY was an HIGH DAY,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

THIS ACCORDING OT YOU IS THE SAME WAY TH EPASSAGE COULD BE READ BECAUSE YOU SAY TEH Sabbath WAS JUST TEH high day AND NOT Saturday!
 
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Ronald Nolette

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Mark says that the woman bought the spices "when the Sabbath was over". He doesn't mention night time. You are assuming it was night time, though it is dubious that the stores would be open Saturday night.

You are also assuming that the First day of Unleavened Bread was on a Saturday.

But you still only have one day. You can't count Friday or Sunday. Your math is way off.

the Sabbath ends when the sun goes down! And After Sabbath was a big time for the market to be open. Course maybe not Walmart! LOL

IU don't assume, I just accept the passage as it should be read properly.

No my math is not off. Jews counted any part of a day as a day colloquially.

DAY - JewishEncyclopedia.com

...In Jewish communal life part of a day is at times reckoned as one day; e.g., the day of the funeral, even when the latter takes place late in the afternoon, is counted as the first of the seven days of mourning; a short time in the morning of the seventh day is counted as the seventh day; circumcision takes place on the eighth day, even though of the first day only a few minutes remained after the birth of the child, these being counted as one day. ...

Teh pride hold on when they are shown they are wrong. The humble learn! Your argument has been debunked somany times! LEARN.
 

CadyandZoe

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the Sabbath ends when the sun goes down! And After Sabbath was a big time for the market to be open. Course maybe not Walmart! LOL

IU don't assume, I just accept the passage as it should be read properly.

No my math is not off. Jews counted any part of a day as a day colloquially.

DAY - JewishEncyclopedia.com

...In Jewish communal life part of a day is at times reckoned as one day; e.g., the day of the funeral, even when the latter takes place late in the afternoon, is counted as the first of the seven days of mourning; a short time in the morning of the seventh day is counted as the seventh day; circumcision takes place on the eighth day, even though of the first day only a few minutes remained after the birth of the child, these being counted as one day. ...

Teh pride hold on when they are shown they are wrong. The humble learn! Your argument has been debunked somany times! LEARN.
Two nights and one day does not add up to three days and three nights.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Two nights and one day does not add up to three days and three nights.

Technically -no. speaking as a Jew in that day- they counted it that way. Get over yourself! Jesus spoke the language with all its idiom of the day! If you can't accept that then you will always be handicapped in appreciating the beauty of the gospels.
 

CadyandZoe

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And both out experts said Jesus died Friday.
The apostles are the only experts we need.

YO0u twist of grammar make work for the gullible, but not for me!
Our disagreement is not over the grammar. The Grammar works in either case. Our dispute is over the meaning of Sabbath. You say it always refers to the last day of the week. We pointed out that the term "Sabbath" not only applies to the weekly Sabbath, it also applies to the Seven year Sabbath and the day of Atonement. Since we can show that the term "Sabbath" is not used exclusively for the last day of the week, your objection is defeated. In addition, John refers to the High Holy Day as a Sabbath.

No you did not prove the jews did not count a partial day as a day. All you did was make a statement without facts to support it!
Jesus tells a parable about a landowner. In that Parable, those who worked all day complain to the landlord that he paid them the same amount as those who worked only two hours. If Jewish culture considered a partial day to be a full day, why did they complain? You view makes no sense of the parable.

But you can prove me wrong by simply going to an English teacher! Show them the passage, tell them the Jews normal Sabbath was every Saturday and ask them if Jesus died on Friday or not!
Why would I tell the teacher that the Jews normal Sabbath was every Saturday? That is your assumption, not mine.

1.Remember John calls it a high day
2. YOu say the Sabbath mentions refer directly to the high day.
John calls it a high day because it wasn't a Saturday as you suppose. If the Jews had a custom whereby they wouldn't allow a criminal to remain on the cross on a Saturday, there would be NO REASON for John to mention that the day was a High Holy Day. But he does. Why? Because that particular Sabbath was not the Sabbath observed on Saturday. It was a Sabbath observed on Nisan 15.

so I will post the passage according to your claim that the Sabbath refers to the feast and not Saturday the normal Sabbath!

John 19:31
King James Version

31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the HIGH DAY, (for that HIGH DAY was an HIGH DAY,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

THIS ACCORDING OT YOU IS THE SAME WAY TH EPASSAGE COULD BE READ BECAUSE YOU SAY TEH Sabbath WAS JUST TEH high day AND NOT Saturday!

Your analogy breaks down because I maintain that there are days other than Saturday, on which no work can be done. Contrary to your assumption that Sabbath = Saturday, the proper understanding of the term "Sabbath" is a day, or a year, when no work can be done. Days of rest are observed on the last day of every week, but there are other days of rest also.

John is attempting to steer the reader away from the very mistake you are making. He mentions that the day was a High Holy Day so that you and I would not assume or mistakenly believe it was a Saturday.
 

Bob Carabbio

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Yes but ask a Jew when is sabbath and they will tell you it is saturday! that is the normal, usual, common way of thinking rand referring to teh Sabbath. Maybe the 54 other times teh sabbath is mentioned in the NT and the hundreds of times in teh OT do not mean the seventh day as was established in creation and encoded in t4eh Mosaic Law, but all of them are based on teh small times Sabbath was uses for a high day! C'mon get real.

Well you can believe what you want but commoons sense, common usage ,, construction of the phrase all show you are wrong- Have fun, have lthe last word. this has become a dead end. YOu want to have Jesus die on another day- fine! YOu are wrong and will stay wrong- but whatever floats your boat.
PSST - there were TWO "Sabbaths" the week Jesus died. One was Thursday (passover), and then the weekly Sabbath on Saturday (friday evening till Saturday Evening).
 

CadyandZoe

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Technically -no. speaking as a Jew in that day- they counted it that way. Get over yourself! Jesus spoke the language with all its idiom of the day! If you can't accept that then you will always be handicapped in appreciating the beauty of the gospels.
Technically it is important. There are conditions that make doctors believe that a person has died, when in fact the person is still alive. For this reason, allowances are made to make sure that a person is not buried alive. The person is observed for several days just in case the person presumed to be dead is still alive and might recover. When I debated with Atheists, some of them claimed that Jesus didn't die, he was simply resuscitated.

Think about it. Why did Jesus allow Lazarus to remain in the tomb for as long as he did? In order for the miracle to be authentic, there could be no doubt that Lazarus actually died. The same is true of Jesus. Proof of death takes time.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Our disagreement is not over the grammar. The Grammar works in either case. Our dispute is over the meaning of Sabbath. You say it always refers to the last day of the week. We pointed out that the term "Sabbath" not only applies to the weekly Sabbath, it also applies to the Seven year Sabbath and the day of Atonement. Since we can show that the term "Sabbath" is not used exclusively for the last day of the week, your objection is defeated. In addition, John refers to the High Holy Day as a Sabbath.

No it doesn't.

YOur thought reads thusly:

31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the HIGH DAY, (for that HIGH DAY was an HIGH DAY,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

If you think that is correct grammar anywhere on this planet, we are at an end.

But this reading , which is the usual normal way to read this is thus:

31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on SATURDAY, (for that SATURDAY was an HIGH DAY,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

that is the normal way a Jewish person would read this passage:

31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Unless there was a modifier saying that the Sabbath was different!
 

Ronald Nolette

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Technically it is important. There are conditions that make doctors believe that a person has died, when in fact the person is still alive. For this reason, allowances are made to make sure that a person is not buried alive. The person is observed for several days just in case the person presumed to be dead is still alive and might recover. When I debated with Atheists, some of them claimed that Jesus didn't die, he was simply resuscitated.

Think about it. Why did Jesus allow Lazarus to remain in the tomb for as long as he did? In order for the miracle to be authentic, there could be no doubt that Lazarus actually died. The same is true of Jesus. Proof of death takes time.


Now you are just being silly! For Jews spoke that way, and thought that way so to them if someone died Friday shortly before sundown and rose before sunup on Sunday, to call it three days and nights was PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE.

THUS ENDETH THIS CONVERSATION
 

Ronald Nolette

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PSST - there were TWO "Sabbaths" the week Jesus died. One was Thursday (passover), and then the weekly Sabbath on Saturday (friday evening till Saturday Evening).

Well years after Jesus died, Jews statted calling the holy conovocation days (which were days of no work) HIgh or Special Sabbaths and there were two that week! Unleavened bread and the normal Sabbath.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Technically it is important. There are conditions that make doctors believe that a person has died, when in fact the person is still alive. For this reason, allowances are made to make sure that a person is not buried alive. The person is observed for several days just in case the person presumed to be dead is still alive and might recover. When I debated with Atheists, some of them claimed that Jesus didn't die, he was simply resuscitated.

Think about it. Why did Jesus allow Lazarus to remain in the tomb for as long as he did? In order for the miracle to be authentic, there could be no doubt that Lazarus actually died. The same is true of Jesus. Proof of death takes time.

Do you know why they thought he was actually dead?

Because on the fourth day in Jewish thinking, the soul hovered over the body for three days attached by a silver cord. On the fourth day the cord was cut and the soul went to Abrahams bosom! That is why Jesus raised Lazarus on the fourth day.