Did God Create Evil?

[FHII]

Aspen wrote:

"I realize that as a created being, I cannot hold God accountable, however, I can find Him culpable for His actions and refuse to follow Him. It would be unethical to worship a God who is not what He claims to be. Jesus even told us that we will know people by their fruits and that our Father in Heaven only gives us good things when we ask. Everything I have learned from the Bible and prayer has told me to flee from evil - why would I hang around God if He was evil?"


Why would you even find him "culpable"? We do not understand all of God's ways, right? It would be prejudging God to find him culpable for anything if we don't understand all his ways. I would like to think you'd follow him no matter what he did. Job was like that, for he said in Job 13:15, "though he slay me, yet will I trust in him."

And who said anything about God being evil? I am merely pointing out that God created evil.

Aspen wrote:

"God desires everyone to be saved."


I don't think he does. Jude 1:4, Mark 4:11-12, Luke 8:10 and 2 Thes 2:12 bear me out on this.


Aspen wrote:

"Yes. He allows people to follow their hearts - exercise freewill. And you are right, it is so that they will turn from evil and towards the ultimate Good. Of course, repenting involves turning away from evil - that would be impossible if God, Himself was evil."

Well, God did repent several times! He in fact repented 7 times in the OT. And no.... I don't believe in free will.

Aspen wrote:

"However, God did not have to actually carry out any of those plagues to convince a superstitious Pharaoh or the Egyptians of His power. Just like He hardened Pharaoh's heart, God could have influenced his mind."

One of the many reasons I don't believe in free will! By the way, perhaps you read my thoughts on free will over on the Debates section. If not, I will elaborate.

 

[Vengle]

Yes, Proverbs 16:4 is one that requires one has more of an abundance of God's wisdom to understand.

I will give you that much. :)

"hath made" <H6466> pa`al -- pronounced: paw-al' --a primitive root; to do or make (systematically and habitually), especially to practise: KJV -- commit, (evil-) do(-er), make(-r), ordain, work(-er).

When one confuses the phrase "hath made" as rendered in the KJV and many other Bible versions with the word "made" as in Genesis chapter one they do not have a prayer to understand what it says.

[Yong's Literal Translation] Proverbs 16:4 "All things hath Jehovah wrought for Himself, And also the wicked worketh for a day of evil."

[Darby's Version] Proverbs 16:4 "Jehovah hath wrought everything on his own account, yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."


The word "made" in Genesis is <H6213> `asah

It has entirely different meaning. :)

God directs the steps of the righteous so as to help them find life.

He also helps the wicked reach the destination their hearts choose to take them, causing them to reap what they sow and perhaps to repent.

But if they will not repent, then he has wrought them to destruction.

I particularly like the Darby's Version rendering "hath wrought everything on his own account", as that cues us to compare the thought to what Paul said about Pharaoh in Romans chapter 9.

Romans 9:17-18 "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

There is what I was seeing. :)

 

[veteran]

The ways God setup for this present world (from Gen.1:2 to present day) was already AFTER... Satan had rebelled against Him.

Thus the wicked were ordained "of old" like Jude 1 says, meaning also AFTER Satan's fall of having instituted evil.

 

[FHII]

The ways God setup for this present world (from Gen.1:2 to present day) was already AFTER... Satan had rebelled against Him.

Thus the wicked were ordained "of old" like Jude 1 says, meaning also AFTER Satan's fall of having instituted evil.

Thus saith Veteran! Yea... Wow.... That makes it so. Vet... we were predestined BEFORE Satan fell. And Satan was a evil before his manifestation. And you still do very little address the proper verses except bash the KJV....

 

[veteran]

Thus saith Veteran! Yea... Wow.... That makes it so. Vet... we were predestined BEFORE Satan fell. And Satan was a evil before his manifestation. And you still do very little address the proper verses except bash the KJV....

That's nothing but hot air.

 

[FHII]

If you are talking about the first nine words, I whole heartedly agree.

 

[veteran]

What is admitted is your interpretation and reasoning is confusing. There is no way to truly qualify your view as I have pointed out. You have simply avoided the verses I and FHII have posted which are plain and easy to read and understand.
The bible, read plainly, is not confusing at all. All is revealed through the HolySpirit because I have the love of God in me, thereby I understand the passages and their meaning. 1 Corinthians 1:18

If anyone is avoiding how God is pointing to Satan in those Scriptures, especially Ezek.28, it's certainly not me. Some of the descriptions cannot... even point to ANY flesh born man! And that's how it's easy to know that those who don't recognize that are either still blinded by God away from it, or they have other fish to fry.

For the Ezekiel 28:14 verse for one example, to NOT be a reference to Satan, one must FIRST prove that an "anointed cherub that covereth" is a flesh born man...


Ezek 28:14
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
(KJV)


Some here like to play games with God's Word in denying that about a 'cherub' in God's Word being ONLY a Heavenly type being. So let's hear how ignorant those can make themselves out to be by trying to prove that verse is not about a heavenly cherub...

 

[FHII]

You are avoiding Isa 45:7, John 1:3, Isa 44:24 (yes, that's a new one, but it says the same thing John 1:3 says) and so forth. I'd be happy to discuss Eze 28 if you'd give these verses more than a glance and writing them off of a KJV error.

 

[aspen]

FHII, do you refuse to consider that Isaiah 45:7 may be saying something different than you believe it is saying? Claiming that God didn't make evil is not an attack on His sovereignty. If you are only willing to consider your own interpretation of the verse, I am not sure there is anything more to discuss on this thread.

In sum

1. God created everything, including evil. He uses evil to test and punish His creation.

2. God did not create evil. Adam and Eve were the first people to misuse God's creation and therefore discover evil, which is not a force, unto itself, but instead, a lesser good. Ever since A&E, humanity has continued to misuse creation to gratify the self, thereby exercising evil.

 

[FHII]

FHII, do you refuse to consider that Isaiah 45:7 may be saying something different than you believe it is saying? Claiming that God didn't make evil is not an attack on His sovereignty. If you are only willing to consider your own interpretation of the verse, I am not sure there is anything more to discuss on this thread.

In sum

1. God created everything, including evil. He uses evil to test and punish His creation.

2. God did not create evil. Adam and Eve were the first people to misuse God's creation and therefore discover evil, which is not a force, unto itself, but instead, a lesser good. Ever since A&E, humanity has continued to misuse creation to gratify the self, thereby exercising evil.

Aspen, it's not a matter of what I believe it is saying. Here's what it says: I make peace and create evil. I say God created evil. What is the difference in what God is saying and what I said? There is none! Well, there is a difference in that God said "I create evil [present tense], and I said it in the past tense. Ok, fine.... That means then even today, God's still creating evil.

It isn't a matter of "what I think it says". It IS what it says. It's pretty plain.

Your choices from how I see it are limited to:

1. Rejecting the KJV. If you do so, I will accept that. Conversation over with no one agreeing either way. I accept for many reasons, and you don't. I am not going to get into a debate about Bible versions.
2. finding a verse that flat out states that God did not create evil, which as just as plain as the one which says he did. I've been looking for it extensively. I can't find one verse that says "God did not create evil".
3. a long "song and dance" routine to try to prove that God didn't mean what he said. In the end, I probably won't buy it.
4. proving the context is wrong. I am ready for that conversation, and fully welcome it.

In short, I'm not interpreting this verse. I quoted it.

You summed it up with two points. One says God created everything, including evil, the other point was that God didn't create evil. That's pretty confusing. Which is it?

 

[justaname]

If anyone is avoiding how God is pointing to Satan in those Scriptures, especially Ezek.28, it's certainly not me. Some of the descriptions cannot... even point to ANY flesh born man! And that's how it's easy to know that those who don't recognize that are either still blinded by God away from it, or they have other fish to fry.

For the Ezekiel 28:14 verse for one example, to NOT be a reference to Satan, one must FIRST prove that an "anointed cherub that covereth" is a flesh born man...


Ezek 28:14
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
(KJV)


Some here like to play games with God's Word in denying that about a 'cherub' in God's Word being ONLY a Heavenly type being. So let's hear how ignorant those can make themselves out to be by trying to prove that verse is not about a heavenly cherub...

God can easily be speaking metaphorically.
Read Isaiah 14 where God is speaking about Satan.

 

[aspen]

Aspen, it's not a matter of what I believe it is saying. Here's what it says: I make peace and create evil. I say God created evil. What is the difference in what God is saying and what I said? There is none! Well, there is a difference in that God said "I create evil [present tense], and I said it in the past tense. Ok, fine.... That means then even today, God's still creating evil.

It isn't a matter of "what I think it says". It IS what it says. It's pretty plain.

Your choices from how I see it are limited to:

1. Rejecting the KJV. If you do so, I will accept that. Conversation over with no one agreeing either way. I accept for many reasons, and you don't. I am not going to get into a debate about Bible versions.
2. finding a verse that flat out states that God did not create evil, which as just as plain as the one which says he did. I've been looking for it extensively. I can't find one verse that says "God did not create evil".
3. a long "song and dance" routine to try to prove that God didn't mean what he said. In the end, I probably won't buy it.
4. proving the context is wrong. I am ready for that conversation, and fully welcome it.

In short, I'm not interpreting this verse. I quoted it.

You summed it up with two points. One says God created everything, including evil, the other point was that God didn't create evil. That's pretty confusing. Which is it?

I was summing up each of our viewpoints. I forgot that you choose the KJV as your primary interpretation of the Bible - that is fine. I am Catholic so I tend to use the New Revised Standard. I also like the NIV. I understand how you reached your conclusion and it makes sense.

The KJV is a reliable and beautifully translated version of the scriptures, but I truly believe it mistranslated calamity as evil. I believe the verse is communicating God's sovereignty, not His character. I also do not believe that anyone can use evil without becoming evil.

However, I know you are a Christian who loves God and I have no problem agreeing to disagree on this matter.

 

[FHII]

I was summing up each of our viewpoints. I forgot that you choose the KJV as your primary interpretation of the Bible - that is fine. I am Catholic so I tend to use the New Revised Standard. I also like the NIV. I understand how you reached your conclusion and it makes sense.

The KJV is a reliable and beautifully translated version of the scriptures, but I truly believe it mistranslated calamity as evil. I believe the verse is communicating God's sovereignty, not His character. I also do not believe that anyone can use evil without becoming evil.

However, I know you are a Christian who loves God and I have no problem agreeing to disagree on this matter.

Like I said, I'm fine with you disagreeing with the KJV. I have my reasons why I stay with it and why I believe the use of the word "evil" is accurate, but I will let it go. Do you have any thoughts on John 1:3? Did God create everything, or are you still claiming that evil isn't "a thing"?

 

[aspen]

Like I said, I'm fine with you disagreeing with the KJV. I have my reasons why I stay with it and why I believe the use of the word "evil" is accurate, but I will let it go. Do you have any thoughts on John 1:3? Did God create everything, or are you still claiming that evil isn't "a thing"?

Yeah - John 1:3 doesn't really apply because God never misuses His creation (sins) or created lesser good (evil)

 

[justaname]

Isaiah 14:8
"Even the cypress trees rejoice over you, and the cedars of Lebannon, saying, "Since you were laid low no cutter comes up against us'

According to God trees rejoicing and speaking.
You can think well maybe God speaks to trees and they speak to Him. (literal)
Or the trees represent people. (metaphorical)

 

[aspen]

Isaiah 14:8
"Even the cypress trees rejoice over you, and the cedars of Lebannon, saying, "Since you were laid low no cutter comes up against us'

According to God trees rejoicing and speaking.
You can think well maybe God speaks to trees and they speak to Him. (literal)
Or the trees represent people. (metaphorical)

I think that is still quite literal - can't God just use poetic language to communicate His sovereignty and love for His creation?

 

[lawrance]

Thus saith Veteran! Yea... Wow.... That makes it so. Vet... we were predestined BEFORE Satan fell. And Satan was a evil before his manifestation. And you still do very little address the proper verses except bash the KJV....

God created the angels good by nature, but some sinned and deliberately became bad.

 

[FHII]

Isaiah 14:8
"Even the cypress trees rejoice over you, and the cedars of Lebannon, saying, "Since you were laid low no cutter comes up against us'

According to God trees rejoicing and speaking.
You can think well maybe God speaks to trees and they speak to Him. (literal)
Or the trees represent people. (metaphorical)

I think both! Who says God can't talk to trees, and they don't talk back? Moses talked to a rock and it responded....

Yeah - John 1:3 doesn't really apply because God never misuses His creation (sins) or created lesser good (evil)

Come on... You know me better than that.... Gimmie a verse. Wait... I actually believe God never misuses his creation.... But who's to say what misuse was. God created Pharaoh to show his greatness, and a bunch of people died.

As for John 1:3... Do you have a particular Bible version you'd like to use? Because I'd be shocked if any of them support your assertion. "All" only means one thing.... Everything! And he backs it up by saying nothing was created unless He did it.

God created the angels good by nature, but some sinned and deliberately became bad.

And are you saying, Mr. Rosenberger, that God didn't know it would happen? How about whether or not God actually planned it to happen? After all, he said he declared the end from the beginning.

 

[veteran]

God can easily be speaking metaphorically.
Read Isaiah 14 where God is speaking about Satan.

Using objects in a metaphorical sense still does not mean non-existence of the object and associated events when applied to another. When some apply Fascism and Hitler to some modern dictator in the metaphorical sense, still doesn't mean Fascism and Hitler never existed.

Likewise in Ezek.28, if God was applying the heavenly cherub that covereth idea to flesh kings in the metaphorical sense, that means God is giving a direct reference to the cherub that covereth and events of rebellion that happened of old, i.e., Satan's rebellion.

 

[aspen]

Hi FHII

I thought I would include a link to a short passage in the Catholic Catechism - it does a nice job of explaining Catholic beliefs on the subject of the Fall and the nature of evil - along with scripture and Tradition (Augustine, Aquinas, etc). Reproducing it would be incomplete so here is the link:

http://www.scborrome...cc/p1s2c1p7.htm

It may do little to change your mind, but at least you can read and understand where I am coming from.