Claimed prophetic fulfillment seems highly questionable. - Were they acquired rather than intended?

[St. SteVen]

Your premise is hard to understand. What do you mean by "acquired?"

@RedFan suggested the word "adopted", which seems to work better.
The problem I see is NT authors claiming something is a fulfillment of prophecy
when the "prophecy" quoted appears to have nothing to do with it.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Ok, great, I also think it was fulfilled in the Exodus. There are a few people who reject the exodus from Egypt (see Wikipedia). I wasn’t sure where you stand because you seem to be questioning some verses.

Since we both agree Hosea 11:1 was fulfilled once and Matthew 2:15 states another fulfillment took place, that gives us a principle in how to interpret the scriptures which is commonly called “duel fulfillment”.

There are some people who are adamant about duel fulfillment and others who reject it. I don’t want to debate duel fulfillment but if you do a search you can see the various pros and cons of this concept.

I suppose that dual fulfillment claims are open to a lot of opinion.

I should be clear about the Exodus. Archeology doesn't seem to support it.
The same way science doesn't support the creation narrative and human origins.
Personally, I'm torn. I can see both sides of the arguments.
And I know some fine Christians that side with science and archeology on this.

There are even questions about who wrote the Torah and where the source material came from.

Even so, I can see the connection in Hosea to the Exodus story. (whether true or false)

[

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:

Mark 14:27 NET
Then[a] Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away, for it is written,
‘I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep will be scattered.’[b]

--- COMPARE ---

Zechariah 13:7 NET
“Awake, sword, against my shepherd,
against the man who is my associate,”
says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies.
“Strike the shepherd that the flock may be scattered;[a]
I will turn my hand against the insignificant ones.

Almost afraid to reply because you’ve said “I would like to get a reaction from those more familiar with the subject.”

Still…it bugs me. It went from Matthew, to Mark, to New Testament writers, then the last quote at the bottom here ‘Is it intent, or did Jesus adopt it for his own use as if it was originally written prophetically?’ For his own use?

The above two you compare: from Mark and Zechariah. If it happened then does the make it misquoted?

No worries. Everyone is welcome.

It seems obvious that Jesus adopted the quote
"I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered."

Notice the second half of the sentence.
"I will turn my hand against the insignificant ones. "
Does that also apply to the scattered sheep? (disciples)

It seems that the quote was cherry-picked out-of-context to make a point.
BUT it is referred to as if it is prophetic. "... for it is written..."

Mark 14:27 NET
Then[a] Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away, for it is written,
‘I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep will be scattered.’[b]

Zechariah 13:7 NET
“Awake, sword, against my shepherd,
against the man who is my associate,”
says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies.
“Strike the shepherd that the flock may be scattered;[a]
I will turn my hand against the insignificant ones.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Here's one to consider. Was it written prophetically about Messiah by Isaiah?
Or did Jesus adopt it to make a point? "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing." - vs 21

Luke 4:16-21 NIV
He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up,
and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue,
as was his custom. He stood up to read,
17 and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him.
Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”[a]
20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down.
The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

--- COMPARE ---

Isaiah 61:1-2 NIV
The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me,
because the Lord has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners,[a]
2 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor
and the day of vengeance of our God,
to comfort all who mourn,

[

 

[wooddog]

St. SteVen said:

Mark 14:27 NET
Then[a] Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away, for it is written,
‘I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep will be scattered.’[b]

--- COMPARE ---

Zechariah 13:7 NET
“Awake, sword, against my shepherd,
against the man who is my associate,”
says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies.
“Strike the shepherd that the flock may be scattered;[a]
I will turn my hand against the insignificant ones.

No worries. Everyone is welcome.

It seems obvious that Jesus adopted the quote
"I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered."

Notice the second half of the sentence.
"I will turn my hand against the insignificant ones. "
Does that also apply to the scattered sheep? (disciples)

It seems that the quote was cherry-picked out-of-context to make a point.
BUT it is referred to as if it is prophetic. "... for it is written..."

Mark 14:27 NET
Then[a] Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away, for it is written,
‘I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep will be scattered.’[b]

Zechariah 13:7 NET
“Awake, sword, against my shepherd,
against the man who is my associate,”
says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies.
“Strike the shepherd that the flock may be scattered;[a]
I will turn my hand against the insignificant ones.

[

Cherry-picking, you could take Zechariah 13;8 and compare it to Revelation 16;19. But really how many times did Jesus tell his disciples have you not read? At least 70 times maybe,140, more like a 1000 times. They would have reflected after his death and resurrection and before the written word on all he had taught. Your real question of those in this forum is how the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet will manipulate the scripture to believe them.

 

[St. SteVen]

Cherry-picking, you could take Zechariah 13;8 and compare it to Revelation 16;19. But really how many times did Jesus tell his disciples have you not read? At least 70 times maybe,140, more like a 1000 times. They would have reflected after his death and resurrection and before the written word on all he had taught. Your real question of those in this forum is how the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet will manipulate the scripture to believe them.

So, what are you saying about the apparent disconnect and misrepresentation of these "prophecies"?
Were they adopted for use in the moment, or intended from the OT texts?

[

 

[wooddog]

So, what are you saying about the apparent disconnect and misrepresentation of these "prophecies"?
Were they adopted for use in the moment, or intended from the OT texts?

[

Reflection on the truth.

 

[St. SteVen]

Reflection on the truth.

Which is what?

Are you sweeping the facts under the carpet to defend an apologetic?

[

 

[wooddog]

Which is what?

Are you sweeping the facts under the carpet to defend an apologetic?

[

Did the new testament writers plagiarize the old or rewrite what what was already written?

 

[St. SteVen]

Did the new testament writers plagiarize the old or rewrite what what was already written?

The issue isn't plagiarism. See the example below.
The NT verse claims that Jesus parents taking him to Egypt is a fulfillment of prophecy.
But the claimed prophecy doesn't fit. It's talking about Israel. ???
So the "prophecy" seems to have been adopted. Not the original intent.

Matthew 2:15
And [Jesus] was there [in Egypt] until the death of Herod:
that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet,
saying, "Out of Egypt have I called my son."

Hosea 11:1
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Did the new testament writers plagiarize the old or rewrite what what was already written?

Two more examples.

Mark 14:27 NET
Then[a] Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away, for it is written,
‘I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep will be scattered.’[b]

--- COMPARE ---

Zechariah 13:7 NET
“Awake, sword, against my shepherd,
against the man who is my associate,”
says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies.
“Strike the shepherd that the flock may be scattered;[a]
I will turn my hand against the insignificant ones.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Matthew 1:23 NET
“Look! The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son,
and they will name him[a] Emmanuel,”[b] which means[c] “God with us.”[d]

--- COMPARE ---

Isaiah 7:14; 8:8, 10 NET
14 For this reason the Lord himself will give you a confirming sign.[a]
Look, this[b] young woman[c] is about to conceive[d] and will give birth to a son.
You, young woman, will name him[e] Immanuel.[f] ...
8 It will spill into Judah, flooding and engulfing, as it reaches to the necks of its victims.
He will spread his wings out over your entire land,[a] O Immanuel.”[b] ...
10 Devise your strategy, but it will be thwarted.
Issue your orders, but they will not be executed![a]
For God is with us![b]

[

 

[grafted branch]

If we consider when the Book of Hosea was written, the Exodus out of Egypt is not a fulfilment of the Hosea 11:1 prophecy. However, I can understand why Hosea 11:1 was considered to be a fulfilled prophecy for Christ in that as a baby, a few days old, He was taken down to Egypt for His own safety before the family returned to the land of Israel after the death of Herod, but because Joseph did not feel that it was safe to remain close by Jerusalem, he took Mary and Jesus to Nazareth first before he returned to Jerusalem to present Jesus in the temple to the Lord as required by the Law after the time of waiting for 45 days had passed for Mary.

I agree Hosea was written after the Exodus but the commentaries I’ve looked at say Hosea 11:1-7 is a direct reference to the Exodus. Do you know of any commentaries that don’t see it this way?

It’s been brought up that when reading Hosea 11:1, it doesn’t come across as a still future event but rather as a statement of what has already happened, especially when read in the context of Hosea 11:1-7.

 

[Wick Stick]

Question: Was that the intention of the writer of the 2nd Psalm, or was the prophecy adopted?

Psalm 2:7 NIV
I will proclaim the Lord’s decree:
He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have become your father.

[

Psalm 2 is theorized to be part of David's coronation as king. David is clearly referring to himself here.

Re-directing the prophecy to be about Jesus is complicated. The intention - to crown a new king - is the same. We might say 'but Jesus is not David.' However, Jesus is David's direct descendant, which muddies the waters. In a legal sense, they could be considered the same person.

There are a lot of examples where OT verses are co-opted in the NT. This one has extra steps. I'd use a different example.

 

[St. SteVen]

Psalm 2 is theorized to be part of David's coronation as king. David is clearly referring to himself here.

Re-directing the prophecy to be about Jesus is complicated. The intention - to crown a new king - is the same. We might say 'but Jesus is not David.' However, Jesus is David's direct descendant, which muddies the waters. In a legal sense, they could be considered the same person.

There are a lot of examples where OT verses are co-opted in the NT. This one has extra steps. I'd use a different example.

It seems clear that the "prophecy" was adopted.

Acts 13:33
God has fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he has raised up Jesus again;
as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou are my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

[

 

[Wick Stick]

It seems clear that the "prophecy" was adopted.

Acts 13:33
God has fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he has raised up Jesus again;
as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou are my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

[

It isn't just Luke that co-opted Psalms 2:7 in Acts.

If you flip back to Mark 1 (or Matt 3 or Luke 3) you'll find that Jesus and John are acting it out, and God Himself mis-quotes the verse, right out of the heavens!

Mark 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.*

...or maybe you won't see it, because it's hidden under that asterisk.

*One early manuscript, Codex Bezae of the Western text type, says, “Thou art my beloved Son, today I have begotten you.”

 

[Wick Stick]

@RedFan suggested the word "adopted", which seems to work better.
The problem I see is NT authors claiming something is a fulfillment of prophecy
when the "prophecy" quoted appears to have nothing to do with it.

[

I think the right word is appropriate. Or maybe misappropriate, depending on how you feel about that.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

My guess is King David, but it could have many applications.

[

Yes, that is the whole point though. Am I misunderstanding you say it can have many applications, but not in regard to messianic prophecy? It can’t be about Jesus.
Acts 13:36-38 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: [37] But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. [38] Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

 

[TribulationSigns]

Were it not for the "flood" mentioned in Daniel 9:26, that verse would be a good candidate.

Isaiah 40:1

• "Comfort ye, comfort ye MY PEOPLE, saith your God. Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her WARFARE is accomplished, and that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received Double for all her sins. The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God."

This is the prophesy of the Messiah's work at the cross. Comfort to Jerusalem, the Holy City, because her warfare is accomplished. In other words, it's all finished. Where once they fought against God (before the cross) and God brought judgement, after the cross, comfort is extended to them. What Jerusalem is this? Is it a literal city in the Middle East? NO! Not at all. It is all those 'people' brought home to the City of God. Comfort is extended to them, the warfare they had 'before' is ended. The captivity they suffered under bondage to satan, is at an end. And notice that it speaks of the 'coming' of the Messiah by the words, "..The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, prepare ye the way of the Lord.." again, confirmation of what we saw before and The clear indication that the Coming of the Messiah prophesied, was 29 A.D. with the announcement of Him by John the Baptist. He was the Voice in the Wilderness. That Prophecy of Isaiah 40 is of the Coming of Messiah to Comfort Jerusalem, to end the violence in the Kingdom (Matthew 11:12), to free the captivity of those held in bondage to sin, and end the warfare against God.

...He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

This is the warfare spoken of in Daniel 9. This is the flood (overflowing) upon Israel of which at the end of it, desolations are determined. As it was written, and as Jesus said, 'Behold, your house is left unto you desolate!' Don't be misled by the word flood, it's meaning can be seen in verses such as Isaiah 8:8, or Daniel 11:10. A excellent verse to get a feel for what this means is Daniel 11:26. When the Bible talks about an army, war, and the flood or overflowing. This is what is in view. It means it is a great overflowing army in this war. The armies are those who fought against Christ, and to the end of the war, they are left desolate and cut off, but to a remnant, he returns with Mercies.

Was there war at the cross? Indeed there was. When the Bible says that they were all against Christ, this is War. To be at enmity against Christ, is to be at war with Him. Just as to be reconciled in Christ, is to be at Peace with Him. The Flood is the overwhelming or overflowing of those who came against Christ. There was none that stood with Him. We see this in Messianic Psalms, such as:

Psalms 69:2

• "I sink in deep mire, where there is no standing: I am come into deep waters, where the FLOODS OVERFLOW Me. I am weary of crying: My throat is dry: Mine eyes fail while I wait for My God. They that hate me without a cause (John 15:25) are more than the hairs of Mine head: They that would destroy Me, being Mine enemies wrongfully are mighty:..."

This is the overflowing flood of the army that came against Christ, and which made an end of City and Sanctuary. What army is this? Romans? No. They are the JEWS who fought against the Messiah, His Enemies, and those that hated Him. They were as a Flood. And they made war until the end, and desolations were determined upon the Old Testament congregation. They are judged of God. Blindness had happened to them. The Prophet and the vision is sealed. In fact, the verse we saw in Acts 15 of rebuilding the tabernacle of David from it's ruins, is taken from the Book of Amos.

Amos 9:11

• "In that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old."

When Acts says this scripture is fulfilled (Acts 15:16) as it is written, it tells us that we don't have to look elsewhere for the fulfillment. It is fulfilled in Christ. Again, notice the language of verse 5 when talking about this judgement of Israel.

Amos 9:5

• "And the Lord God of hosts is He that toucheth the land, and it shall melt, and all that dwell therein shall mourn: and it shall rise up wholly like a FLOOD: and shall be drowned, as by the FLOOD of Egypt."

At the cross, Christ freed us from bondage to Satan just as God freed Israel from bondage to Pharaoh. And as the armies who fought against Israel were drowned then, so those who fight against Israel (Christ) at the cross come up like a flood, and are drowned in God's judgment. It is God who has left this city desolate because of their warfare with him. They would destroy the City and the Temple, and God will bring judgment upon them, and raise it up again in 3 days. He will build again the tabernacle that is fallen, and raise again the ruins, with living bricks. Merciful God returns with compassion, to the rebuilding of the Tabernacle with the Gentiles - the New Testament congregation!

Obviously God did not talk about physical war, physical roman solider, physical stones of the temple building falling, etc. All were fulfilled in Christ at the Cross with the fall of Old Testament congregation and in three days, Christ rebuilt it and started the New Testament congregation. Not 70AD!


Selah!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

St. SteVen said:

Mark 14:27 NET
Then[a] Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away, for it is written,
‘I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep will be scattered.’[b]

--- COMPARE ---

Zechariah 13:7 NET
“Awake, sword, against my shepherd,
against the man who is my associate,”
says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies.
“Strike the shepherd that the flock may be scattered;[a]
I will turn my hand against the insignificant ones.

No worries. Everyone is welcome.

It seems obvious that Jesus adopted the quote
"I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered."

Notice the second half of the sentence.
"I will turn my hand against the insignificant ones. "
Does that also apply to the scattered sheep? (disciples)

It seems that the quote was cherry-picked out-of-context to make a point.
BUT it is referred to as if it is prophetic. "... for it is written..."

Mark 14:27 NET
Then[a] Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away, for it is written,
‘I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep will be scattered.’[b]

Zechariah 13:7 NET
“Awake, sword, against my shepherd,
against the man who is my associate,”
says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies.
“Strike the shepherd that the flock may be scattered;[a]
I will turn my hand against the insignificant ones.

[

Have you read the rest of Zechariah, I assume you have? Zechariah 14:1 Lexicon: Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.

Random that they divided his garment and cast lots for it? Random
Hebrews 10:34-36 For you had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. [35] Cast not away therefore your confidence, which has great recompence of reward. [36] For you have need of patience, that, after you have done the will of God, you might receive the promise.

Are there any passages in the Old Testament you do see as Messianic prophecy and would agree if and when the New Testament writers referred to those Old Testament prophecies? If so, what are they? What of in the psalms that the dogs surround me …the perched my hands and feet. Is this about some other?

Surely you don’t doubt as messianic prophecies?? Isaiah 53:1-12 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? [2] For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he has no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. [3] He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. [4] Surely he has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. [5] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. [6] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. [7] He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. [8] He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. [9] And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. [10] Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. [11] He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. [12] Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he has poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Surely this is not another, it’s not David right?

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
My guess is King David, but it could have many applications.

Yes, that is the whole point though. Am I misunderstanding you say it can have many applications, but not in regard to messianic prophecy? It can’t be about Jesus.
Acts 13:36-38 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: [37] But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. [38] Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

But is that how messianic prophecy should work?
Quoting (misappropriating) something that COULD be about Jesus?

[