"Christians don't know what they believe." - until they are brainwashed
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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St. SteVen said:
... No offense, but in terms of "brainwashing", Catholics and JWs are the worst...
Prejudice would be if I rejected Catholics and JWs. I don't.
I'm making an observation about strict religious brainwashing.
Catholics and JWs are well known for this. Not my opinion.
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... No offense, but in terms of "brainwashing", Catholics and JWs are the worst...
On the contrary.
Prejudice would be if I rejected Catholics and JWs. I don't.
I'm making an observation about strict religious brainwashing.
Catholics and JWs are well known for this. Not my opinion.
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I don't see that rationality and logic are particularly related to brainwashing. Sure, we are more likely to buy into brainwashing if it strikes us as rational and logical, but there are a thousand different belief systems that are rational and logical. The issue is whether we let authority figures supplant our own thinking with theirs. My point - to which I don't think you were responding - is that an effort to avoid this can be brainwashing in its own right: self-brainwashing! Rather than succumbing to authority figures, we assemble our very own belief system that seems rational and logical to us and fall in love with it. Now all we are interested in is defending it. We forget we are dealing with Ultimate Metaphysical Mysteries for which there are no certain answers in this lifetime. This is why I insist on non-dogmatic convictions that remain flexible and subject to revision. My faith is living as though my beliefs were true while accepting they may not be. Most people, seemingly, cannot live with this uncertainty, ambiguity and mystery - hence, they are more comfortable with brainwashing, either by authority figures or themselves.There is no brainwashing when the person is able to rationally explain their beliefs.
The "brainwashing" thing has lately become a very childish excuse for not allowing another person to help you reason logically. It's as if whoever used the accusation was brainwashed.
That you criticize a group of more than 8 million people in more than 230 countries as "brainwashed people" tells me how unobjective and unrealistic you can be.
Actually, what makes you criticize people instead of analyzing a specific biblical issue with them to see if they are right or wrong?
When you point one finger at another person, you are pointing three fingers at yourself.
PS: opinion is just that. Jews also had an opinion of Jesus and his followers.
Rubbish.
More rubbish.The "brainwashing" thing has lately become a very childish excuse for not allowing another person to help you reason logically. It's as if whoever used the accusation was brainwashed.
If you need help to reason logically, then you are obviously incapable of doing it yourself.
And if you are incapable of doing it yourself, you are at risk of being brainwashed.
Which seems to be what happened to you. Sorry to say.
/
I am not interested on opinions, believe me. ;)
If you want to study a biblical topic with me, just let me know. I'll do this:
Matt. 28:20 ... teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you ...
:)
I have the highest respect for the JW. By pure happenstance, some of their beliefs dovetail with my own. But the fact is, it's an extremely controlling organization that sometimes goes to extreme measures to keep its members from encountering or considering other views. Even if JW theology were 100% correct and all JW were 100% sincere, the fact would remain that many have been brainwashed into believing. I can't say the Southern Baptists or any other denomination are a great deal different since most people land where they land as the result of parental indoctrination and other reasons unrelated to truth. If I were to join the JW tomorrow, then I would be a "non-brainwashed" JW who had made a sincere commitment.
Jehovah's Witnesses are a copy of the Christian congregation of the first century. We do not invent doctrines, we learn them from Jesus and the anointed ones of the first century. We justify them with the Scriptures and thus we adapt to them and let the holy spirit that inspired them influence us.
More than a community of more than 8 million people in more than 230 countries, we are more than 8 million individuals who have discovered that the truth is here, that this is the Way that Jesus taught, that Jesus is taking care of us from the heavens.
Critics act according to their agenda... meanwhile we witnesses preach biblical truth and help anyone who wants to learn it (Matt. 24:14; 28:19,20; Acts 1:8).
What plan are you on?
The enemies of Christ do not want people to find the truth. Anyone who teaches anything will be branded as "doubtful" to prevent seekers from joining God's people. That is the Devil's plan and he got many minions on internet.
2 Cor. 4:3 If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through. 5 For we are preaching, not about ourselves, but about Jesus Christ as Lord and ourselves as your slaves for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God is the one who said: “Let the light shine out of darkness,” and he has shone on our hearts to illuminate them with the glorious knowledge of God by the face of Christ.
More than a community of more than 8 million people in more than 230 countries, we are more than 8 million individuals who have discovered that the truth is here, that this is the Way that Jesus taught, that Jesus is taking care of us from the heavens.
Critics act according to their agenda... meanwhile we witnesses preach biblical truth and help anyone who wants to learn it (Matt. 24:14; 28:19,20; Acts 1:8).
What plan are you on?
The enemies of Christ do not want people to find the truth. Anyone who teaches anything will be branded as "doubtful" to prevent seekers from joining God's people. That is the Devil's plan and he got many minions on internet.
2 Cor. 4:3 If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through. 5 For we are preaching, not about ourselves, but about Jesus Christ as Lord and ourselves as your slaves for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God is the one who said: “Let the light shine out of darkness,” and he has shone on our hearts to illuminate them with the glorious knowledge of God by the face of Christ.
BINGO!
Yes.
This topic was about brainwashing in general. But some of these groups are off the chart in that regard.
Much worse than even what I grew up with.
/
The reality of the matter is this: in the real people of the true God it can't be allow each person to interpret the Bible on their own. It is evident that this would not result in a united people, but in a breeding ground for sects and divisions like modern Christendom.
Jesus said something similar to the Jews when they accused him of casting out demons by the power of Satan:
Matt. 12:24 At hearing this, the Pharisees said: “This fellow does not expel the demons except by means of Be·elʹze·bub, the ruler of the demons.” 25 Knowing their thoughts, he said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself comes to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 In the same way, if Satan expels Satan, he has become divided against himself; how, then, will his kingdom stand? 27 Moreover, if I expel the demons by means of Be·elʹze·bub, by means of whom do YOUR sons expel them? This is why they will be judges of YOU. 28 But if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU. 29 Or how can anyone invade the house of a strong man and seize his movable goods, unless first he binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. 30 He that is not on my side is against me, and he that does not gather with me scatters.
Jesus said something similar to the Jews when they accused him of casting out demons by the power of Satan:
Matt. 12:24 At hearing this, the Pharisees said: “This fellow does not expel the demons except by means of Be·elʹze·bub, the ruler of the demons.” 25 Knowing their thoughts, he said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself comes to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 In the same way, if Satan expels Satan, he has become divided against himself; how, then, will his kingdom stand? 27 Moreover, if I expel the demons by means of Be·elʹze·bub, by means of whom do YOUR sons expel them? This is why they will be judges of YOU. 28 But if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU. 29 Or how can anyone invade the house of a strong man and seize his movable goods, unless first he binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. 30 He that is not on my side is against me, and he that does not gather with me scatters.
Same as Christians in the first century and Israelites before them.
Deut. 6:4 Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. 5 You must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength. 6 These words that I am commanding you today must be on your heart, 7 and you must inculcate them in your sons and speak of them when you sit in your house and when you walk on the road and when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them as a reminder on your hand, and they must be like a headband on your forehead. 9 Write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
What are the proofs a religious group is the one in Jesus' hands?
1) they can demonstrate their beliefs on reasonable and logical biblical debate
2) they practice what they teach
3) they are "not part" of the world. They do not interfere to try to change it, because it is not our mission...
4) they don't participate in worldly matters like politics, cause Jesus' kingdom does not belong to this system of things
5) they don't participate in military movements of this world
What else could you add to that list? "Brainwashing" has nothing to do with this ... rational thinking does.
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My first foray into thinking for myself was the topic of baptism. I read what scripture said and then I listened to what a church believed. Their doctrines did not mesh well at all, and I got verbally raked over the coals by a preacher that responded with "well, I see what your are saying (provided several passages to him), but I can't accept it.
And he was the Pastor of that church who could not accept scripture, nor explain to me how the scriptures were wrong.
I will insert myself here for a brief statement:There is no brainwashing when the person is able to rationally explain their beliefs.
The "brainwashing" thing has lately become a very childish excuse for not allowing another person to help you reason logically. It's as if whoever used the accusation was brainwashed.
I think brainwashing is proved when a person who holds a doctrine that they cannot support in the face of scripture than disproves it. Many Christians fall into this category now.
A clear example is when you tell someone that Jesus is not God according to the Bible. An easy way to prove it (although there are hundreds of biblical ways to prove it) is with the verse that says no one has ever seen God. If they saw Jesus then he cannot be that GOD that no one has seen.
John 1:14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth. (...) 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.
But to deny the reasoning they try to use texts where it says that Jehovah was seen, although evidently the Bible does not say that, but rather that some people thought that they had seen Jehovah, when He had specifically told Moses that this was impossible.
Exo. 33:20 “You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live.”
So they look for a thousand ways to make people believe that
How can a person use the Bible to try to contradict the Bible? It's simple: these people do not have a correct understanding of the truth, and that is why they fall into such blunders.
In my considerable experience, the JW fare very well in regard to points 2-5. As I said, I have the highest respect for the JW. Your point 1 is where things collapse. Lots of versions of Christianity can demonstrate their beliefs logically and biblically. The JW are - undeniably - forced to be "creative' with their translation to support some of their doctrines. They do have an authoritarian regime, "discourage" (to put it mildly) their members from encountering or considering different views, and don't tolerate dissension. This is the brainwashing @St. SteVen is talking about. This aspect, to me, is very troubling.
It really has little or nothing to do with doctrinal truth. If the Southern Baptists or United Methodists operated the same way, that would be brainwashing as well. As I suggested, many Christians are "brainwashed" in the sense of their Christianity being mostly a product of parental and cultural indoctrination and never really being examined. But the efforts at indoctrination and control exercised by the JW, the Mormons and many cults (no, I am not calling the JW a cult) is in a different league.
I'm not really following your defensiveness, except perhaps as a knee-jerk JW response. If you are sincerely convinced the JW are where the truth is to be found, you arrived at this conviction of your own free will, and you remain of your own free will - good for you! There have been times that I've been tempted to join the JW for precisely your points 2-5, but it's always the totalitarian, controlling aspect that keeps me at arm's length.
Opinions are not proof of anything.
Anyone who wishes to study the Bible accurately should do so with a Jehovah's Witness. No one else is going to be able to teach you how to understand the Bible correctly.
It is not a matter of opinion: you should see for yourself and leave opinions aside.
Anyone who wishes to study the Bible accurately should do so with a Jehovah's Witness. No one else is going to be able to teach you how to understand the Bible correctly.
It is not a matter of opinion: you should see for yourself and leave opinions aside.
I do appreciate your posts.
So many of those is churches, that I am aware of, claim to believe something when they never "search the scriptures to see" if it is even true. Some of them hold office in those churches and claim knowledge that they cannot defend either.
I've seen this to be true in protestant and catholic churches. Brainwashing exists everywhere that truth is provided by man instead of by God. The individual who accepts this unverified truth is responsible for what they chose to believe, and those who taught them will be held accountable as well.
I think we are a society that places great value in social membership, and that drives us to accept the brainwashing. Peer pressure is powerful.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Why bang the same old drum; the sound of others being wrong and I have the right path. Whether that is true or not is beside the point.....the point being, this approach does nothing to qualify what is true, to validate your view or to bring glory to God.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
You have shot yourself in the foot ElieG by assuming your view is not an opinion. If you feel you have something of value to share why not tell us of Jehovah, the one you say you are a witness to.
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