You ask some good questions.
I have launched several topics on the subject of hell, addressing various aspects. Links below.
"Christians don't know what they believe." - until they are brainwashed
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I have launched several topics on the subject of hell, addressing various aspects. Links below.
Rella ~ I am a woman
Well-Known Member
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
All you have to do is go back to the beginning and see what God created, and the purpose he had in placing humans in charge of everything here on this carefully prepared planet, teeming with life. (souls)
Gen 1:26-28….after loving preparation of this one tiny planet in his vast universe, and making sure that all things were in place for living creatures to sustain their lives….
”Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.” 27 And God went on to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them. 28 Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.”
There it is….our purpose in being here was to act as God’s representatives in caring for all that he created. The humans were to “fill the earth and subdue it”. What did that mean? They were to have children and extend the boundaries of their paradise till the whole earth was “subdued”. (brought under control)
Now imagine what that would have meant…..God’s first purpose was to have free willed mortal creatures endowed with his attributes and appreciation for beauty and cleanliness (so obvious in nature) leading the human race to complete his purpose in transforming his earth into a global paradise…..a world free from sickness, aging and death. Living forever on earth in a mortal body, but having all provisions made to accommodate everlasting life….”the tree of life” in the garden would guarantee that death would never happen as long as they were obedient.
Being given God’s moral attributes (made in his image) we were also given the precious gift of free will.
But free will was not to be abused to the detriment of other living things. This is why God withheld only one thing from his human children…..”the knowledge of good and evil”…..we were not to make that choice because everything in God’s creation is perfectly balanced…..all things have equal opposites. The magnitude of the goodness that comes from God also had an equal opposite. But free will has to have choices and consequences in all of its applications… or it isn’t free. We are not created to be like the animals only acting on instinct. We alone have a concept of past, present and future, making it easy to plan ahead and implement our intentions….other creatures have no planning ability….their instincts guide them automatically, to take care of themselves and bring new life into existence.
As Universal Sovereign, Jehovah had the right to set limits on the use of free will, but it came with a choice to obey God in the one thing he withheld or to disobey and die. Having the death penalty meant understanding the seriousness of disobeying him. Death was the end of life….no afterlife of ANY description was ever mentioned to Adam, so if “hell” had been the penalty for disobedience, that would have been a whole other story. By not informing Adam of the possibility of being tortured in flames forever, God would have been remiss.
Who said that satan wrote parts of the Bible?
Satan invented the concept of “hell” as a place of conscious torment.…he wove that meaning into parts of scripture that were then used to terrify people and keep them in line.
What Jesus spoke about was “Gehenna”….this is not “hades” but both words are translated as “hell”.
So where did ‘the flames and the worms that do not die’ come from?
“Gehenna” was Jerusalem’s garbage dump. Fires were kept burning day and night to consume the rubbish…what the flames missed the maggots finished off. Nothing alive ever went into Gehenna. To his Jewish audience who had the Hebrew scriptures to tell them about death, we find no afterlife ever mentioned to them. Israel were offered “life or death”…never “heaven or hell”. (Deut 30:17-20)
The Hebrew Scriptures do not talk about an afterlife…..they speak of resurrection, which is a restoration of life, not a continuation of it. ”Souls” in the Bible are living, breathing creatures….never are they said to be disembodied spirits. So the Bible does not support the notion of immortal souls tripping off to either heaven or hell at their death. It says that death is the opposite of life.
Solomon wrote…
“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun. . . . . Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, [sheol] where you are going.”
The grave (”sheol” and its Greek equivalent “hades”) is a place where the dead “sleep” awaiting the call from the Messiah to come out of their tombs. (John 5:28-29) For a Jew, those tombs were very important because they believed that a resurrection depended on their graves being correctly identified with their name and lineage…..to have your body thrown into “Gehenna” meant no tomb, and hence no resurrection. The carcasses of dead animals and the bodies of executed criminals were often thrown into Gehenna for disposal. It was a literal place but with a very symbolic meaning in Jesus’ teachings. The early apostate church cleverly turned Gehenna into “hell”…..adopting the belief that the soul is immortal, not from the Bible, but from pagan Greek notions. They then used “hell” to torment the living.
God has no need or desire to torture anyone, let alone roasting them in flames forever…how fiendish is that!? He castigated the Israelites for burning their children in the fire to a false god. (Jeremiah 7:30-31) Why would he then do that to his own children?
Eternal death is enough.
Jesus said….
”And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna.”
Does your Bible say “hell”? Read it again and see that God “destroys” souls in “Gehenna”…he does not torment them. The dead are not in a conscious state, so no torment is possible. You have to be conscious to suffer in any way. (Psalm 115:17)
Souls are not immortal, they are living, breathing creatures……they die. (Ezekiel 18:4)
It’s not “casting doubt on the words of our Savior” at all…..it is lifting the veil of lies that satan told about death. What did he tell Eve in the garden? “You surely will not die”……and yet when humans did die, he simply invented a way for them to ‘go on living’….in another realm in another form. To believe in heaven and hell is to continue to be deceived by the devil.
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New topic to check out. Are you in exile?
www.christianityboard.com
In exile from the church - disconnected from what?
Whether by personal decision, or being forced out, some (or many?) are exiled from the institution of the church. I did some quick research to see if there are any statistics on Christians leaving the church. Wanting to know if it really is just SOME, or if it is MANY. (probably many, but...)...
www.christianityboard.com
New topic to check out. Are you in exile?
www.christianityboard.com
In exile from the church - disconnected from what?
Whether by personal decision, or being forced out, some (or many?) are exiled from the institution of the church. I did some quick research to see if there are any statistics on Christians leaving the church. Wanting to know if it really is just SOME, or if it is MANY. (probably many, but...)...
www.christianityboard.com
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
We need the word to teach us what to believe. The church through th eministryies of Pastor/Teachers is therfe to minister to us in the Word so we can finish maturing.
The church is here to glorify god and share the good news.
Those are good points, but it doesn't prove that believers are not indoctrinated by the church.
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Rella ~ I am a woman
Well-Known Member
Even if it is wrong?
Baby sprinkling is a far cry from immersion once you believe. But if you were baby sprinkled you will defend that
church taught belief to the end.
Permitting a spokeswoman to sit on the steps of the sanctuary on a Christmas eve and tell the children gathered at her feet that the Wisemen made it to the manger, while He was there, because the camels were extremely fast and could cover great distances very quickly. And then when writing to the minister of the night asking him how he could permit that and not correct her before the service his reply came that Yes, he knew the Wisemen never made it to the manger but he "felt" it best to no confuse the congregation....
end result... Had lunch with a woman from church awhile after that and the subject came up. I said it the truthful way and she frowned. So I got her a copy of a paper I had written on the subject to read and after that
man did the distancing come in. After all... the church is right.... This was back in the 1990s
So dont hand that about the church to me... You need to discern and read and study and rightly divide the word for yourself in addition to the man made, man taught church
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
People will be indoctrinated by something. We do not live in a vacuum of knowledge. All people are indoctrinated. The church indoctrinates into Jesus (or it is supposed to) while the world indoctrinates into rebellion against god
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well now we are dealing with the issue of how churches have strayed from the truth.
I was speaking of why the church was established and its mission as ordered by our Lord.
But even with churches , we have to measure what they say by the Word of God which is our ultimate truth.
THE church (believing congregations) are not man made or man taught. There are still many ou there. It is our duty and responsibility to find one of these, become part of that local assembly and grow and learn and practice our gifts there to the edification of others and the glory of god.
If people stop fellowshipping because they have run into some bad churches (and there are many of them out there as well) then we are no better than the people we criticize, for we also are in rebellion against teh Lord and His command for us in Hebrews 10:
Hebrews 10:25
King James Version
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.We must remember, other than the Pastoral Epistles, Paul wrote to local congregations to encourage a group of believers banded together by love.
Rella ~ I am a woman
Well-Known Member
Nothing is as old as the one I was reading elsewhere that was replied to today, but originally written in 2013
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
It doesn't take much pushing for blame to surface does it?
We forget so easily, so quickly that blame is not a part of God's repertoire. At times when I become conscious of what I'm doing I appreciate how long-suffering my Saviour is.
Agree.
Ironically these troublemakers come on my topics and call me a troll.
IT'S MY TOPIC, HELLO? !!!!!
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quietthinker
Well-Known Member
My friend, the thing is, ahhhhmmmm, I am referring to your post.
Vintage thread. That was a pretty good year actually. - LOLNothing is as old as the one I was reading elsewhere that was replied to today, but originally written in 2013
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Did the edit help?My friend, the thing is, ahhhhmmmm, I am referring to your post.
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