Christian Liberty Forced me to Leave Dispensationalism

[Ronald Nolette]

You're just using this as an excuse to get out of addressing my points.


And you talk about my insults? You are a hypocrite.


You say this without even addressing the OT passage that Paul referenced which shows that both believers and unbelievers will be bowing the knee before the Lord. Why should I take you seriously when you ignore that? Also, Matthew 25:31-46 makes it abundantly clear that both believers and unbelievers will stand before Jesus to give an account of themselves. You are denying clear scripture.


I have nothing to apologize for. You want me to apologize for merely disagreeing with your false doctrine. I won't.

have the last word. You are a universalist by your conclusions.

I have addressed your points

Yes the Isaiah passage is a universal declaration. However grammatically and linguistically ( primary grade grammar) Paul is quoting that verse to discuss issued between believers and thus narrows the scope down.

As for the Matthew passage? Once again if it is kept in its fuller context, this is talking about when Jesus returns to earth, establishes His throne and gathers all the survivors of the tribulation period to judge them. It is not a total judgment, but only a judgment for those alive when jesus returns.

After this judgment, then comes the first resurrection of Rev. 20 , followed 1000 years later by the second and final resurrection.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

have the last word. You are a universalist by your conclusions.

I am not a universalist, so your reading comprehension skills are clearly lacking.

As for the Matthew passage? Once again if it is kept in its fuller context, this is talking about when Jesus returns to earth, establishes His throne and gathers all the survivors of the tribulation period to judge them. It is not a total judgment, but only a judgment for those alive when jesus returns.

Wrong. There is only one judgment day which is why Jesus always referred to "the day of judgment" without indicating which day of judgment He was talking about. There was no need since there is only one and since all people will be judged at the same time when Jesus returns at the end of the age, as passages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46 indicate.

 

[Timtofly]

You say this without even addressing the OT passage that Paul referenced which shows that both believers and unbelievers will be bowing the knee before the Lord. Why should I take you seriously when you ignore that? Also, Matthew 25:31-46 makes it abundantly clear that both believers and unbelievers will stand before Jesus to give an account of themselves. You are denying clear scripture.

Matthew 25 is not about lost people in general, nor even those physically dead. None of this chapter is about the dead standing at the GWT Judgment. This chapter is not the general church rapture covered by Paul. Thus chapter is certainly not the events of the 7th Trumpet. Those covered in this chapter are judged months prior to the 7th Trumpet.

The 7th Trumpet is not about those physically dead, but those spiritually dead still on the earth after those in Matthew 25 have all already been judged.


Why do you dump all humanity into a universal stance, that is physically dead before they can even be judged? Those dead mentioned at the 7th Trumpet are physically alive, but spiritually dead. Do you think all of humanity falls into your username group "spiritual"? Even those alive on the earth with the second birth, are in a physical state of death, called mortal but are physically alive. They are spiritually dead, because they have no access to their spirit, which is currently in heaven. All the spirits of redeemed people are in heaven, unless they are demonic, and the soul is reprobate per Romans 1. That is not the default condition humans are born into. Being reprobate is past the point of redemption, even if one is still named to the Lamb's book of life. No one has been removed from the Lamb's book of life, because the book is still sealed shut with at least 3 Seals if not more. The Seals are not parallel to the Trumpets. The Trumpets are not parallel to the Thunders. And the Thunders are not parallel to the vials. The vials may not even happen.

No one seems to want to allow the final harvest to unfold, and Amil call the final harvest a split second event, and it is all over, as if all of Scripture is describing that split second, but no one will even know what happened, but will find themselves in eternity even though to God, that split second lasted for years, while all were being judged and removed from the Lamb's book of life, or tossed into the LOF. Amil think that all happens in a twinkling of an eye for humans, but God sees it unfold over time, because God is longsuffering, while humans are not. There can be no other logical reason why Amil dump everything together into one pot, instead of rightly dividing Scripture and seeing the final harvest unfold as John wrote it down, bit by bit.

The Church is removed first at the Second Coming/rapture. Then Jesus sits in judgment in Jerusalem, while Israel is brought to stand before her King and separated from sheep and goats. Not your theological Israel. The 12 tribes of Judah are gathered from all nations during the time called Jacob's trouble. Matthew is written expressly to the Hebrews and Matthew 24 and 25 is how Israel relates to the fulness of the Gentiles and the Second Coming. Not just first century Jews. Jesus is talking about the Israel that starts the church, and the Israel that is left after the church is taken away.

Matthew 25 is about Israel at the Second Coming. Those who are part of the church are the wise of Israel who accepted the second birth, and the gift of Salvation. The foolish are of Israel who will be judged by Jesus directly in Jerusalem. Matthew 25 can not be about all of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Redemption was always through the Cross, not by doing works, which is the metric given by Jesus in both the parables, and the literal choice Jesus made why some were chosen and redeemed as sheep, while the majority were tossed into the LOF as goats. The sheep were redeemed on the spot. They were not the church. If they had been the church, they would have not been left behind as foolish virgins. They did not have the Holy Spirit like the redeemed who have submitted to the Holy Spirit via the second birth.

Mathew 25 is not about the church standing in Judgment along with the wicked. The church is taken away and the "door shut". No one will become the church after that point, not even in the known beginning of the NHNE, after the old is handed back to God, after the Day of the Lord. The wicked don't go to heaven to be judged. The separation of the sheep and goats takes place on the earth. Both the sheep and goats are removed from the earth. The sheep are not left behind to be persecuted and martyred. What would be the point? When they were declared sheep they were translated out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, and given permanent incorruptible physical bodies. But they were not glorified, given back their spirit. They are those who live and reign on the earth, as the Israel Jesus is King over for the last thousand years, the Sabbath Day of the Lord. Revelation 11:15

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

That means no one on earth will be left in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They are no longer the dead, but they are not the church either. There are no national distinctions in the church. The church are sons of God, glorified in Paradise. But the 7th Trumpet is telling us that on earth there are still physical distinctions of ethnic kingdoms and nations, although no one is left in Adam's dead corruptible flesh, but have on God's permanent incorruptible physical body. That is why they are the Lord's people, and not Adam's people in that transgression. The time is up for Adam's transgression, and people bring born as sinners. The 7th Trumpet declares Adam's punishment is over.

The 7th Trumpet also sees some on earth physically alive, but still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh, so they are the dead yet to be judged in the winepress of God's wrath. The physically dead in sheol are not resurrected to just be killed all over again in the winepress of God's wrath. And no, the GWT Judgment event, is not the winepress of God's wrath. The GWT Judgment is a thousand years later, and then after a season of time after Satan is loosed.

So disregarding Scripture, and all the separate judgments that are accounted for, these judgments can not all be lumped into a twinkling of an eye moment as Amil want us to believe.

The sheep and goats are not judged in a twinkling of an eye. The tares are not sown, gathered and destroyed in a twinkling of an eye. The rewards and the trial by fire of the church's works is not over in a twinkling of an eye. The baptism of fire and the works on earth burned up is not over in a twinkling of an eye. The Trumpets are not all sounded in a twinkling of an eye while the vials are being poured out at the same time. The Trumpets have not been sounding out over the entire length of time called the fulness of the Gentiles, so that by the time the last Trumpet sounds time is over, in a twinkling of an eye.

 

[Timtofly]

You say this without even addressing the OT passage that Paul referenced which shows that both believers and unbelievers will be bowing the knee before the Lord. Why should I take you seriously when you ignore that? Also, Matthew 25:31-46 makes it abundantly clear that both believers and unbelievers will stand before Jesus to give an account of themselves. You are denying clear scripture.

Continued...

The first Trumpet cannot sound until the 7th Seal opens the Lamb's book of life. Israel will be gathered and judged as sheep and goats during the first 6 Trumpets. The 7th Trumpet cannot sound, until the 7 Thunders have gathered the wheat and the tares per Matthew 13. Jesus and the angels are on the earth during the judgment of the sheep and goats, and the sowing and reaping of the wheat and tares. Jesus is the one personally on earth sowing the seeds that produce the wheat. The 144k are with Jesus wherever He goes. This is a physical appearance as the Prince to come, just as much as the Messiah was physically on earth at the first coming of Jesus. The 70th week cannot be declared over until the Prince to come part is fulfilled at the Second Coming, and Jesus personally sits on His new glorious throne as the throne of David. That is the time that is no more: Daniel's 70 weeks. Any one left will be placed in the winepress of God's wrath as the final judgment, that is also separate from the twinkling ofvan eye moment knows as the Second Coming. Not even Revelation 19 and the Battle of God Almighty at Armageddon can fit the Second Coming, nor fit in that twinkling of an eye moment.



The days of the 7th Trumpet are a week long event. That is the week described in Daniel 9:27 when John is told the mystery will finally be brought to an end. The issue is that week of days will be split into two 3.5 day periods of time, with a 42 month period in between them. That is depending on the outcome of the confirmation of the Atonement Covenant of Cross. Those dead mentined in Revelation 11:18 have to be confirmed if they are still redeemable or not.



If there is a 42 month extension to the 70 weeks instead of actually ending on Sunday, then the winepress mentioned in Revelation 14 will not happen. The winepress in Revelation 14 means no one will be beheaded, so time is not extended. That winepress is the final judgment of those dead in Revelation 11:18.



"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged."



However if God confirms that some will choose to be beheaded, then there will be a 42 month extension. That is when the mark is handed out by God, as he removes their names from the Lamb's book of life. Those beheaded are not removed from the Lamb's book of life, but cannot be given the first resurrection, until after Armageddon, and the final winepress of God's wrath. Then they will be given a permanent incorruptible physical body, and live on the earth for a thousand years, and will not face the second death in the LOF, but live on in the NHNE outside of the NewJerusalem. They were not tossed into the LOF during the Trumpets and Thunders. Being beheaded was their testimony that secured their names in the Lamb's book of life, but they still had to stand in judgment to receive the first resurrection. Yet Amil state all these judgments and the final harvest are all over in a twinkling of an eye, per Paul.