Christian Liberty Forced me to Leave Dispensationalism

[Spiritual Israelite]

You seem to forget that God made more than one promise to Abraham. The land promise was given to Abraham, confirmed with Isaac and then confirmed to Jacob aka Israel as an eternal covenant.

But simply being an heir of Abraham does not make one an Israelite nor a spiritual Israelite. To be an Israelite one had to be an heir of Abrahm Isaac and Jacob.

Abraham had another son, Ishmael, Isaac had Esau so those children are heirs of Abraham but not Israelites.

You just want to ignore what the NT teaches.

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

This says "promises" (plural), and not just one promise. So, you can't get around this no matter what you do. but, you will try, anyway, because you believe what you want to believe.

In their context? 100%

Well let me correct your misunderstanding of what I speak. the bible is a literal book. It does contain metaphors, euphemistic language, symbols, visions and apocalyptic language.

LOL. What a ridiculous statement. It's then obviously not a literal book because it contains more than just literal text. Imagine me saying that the Bible is a metaphorical book and then saying "it does contain literal text, euphemistic language, symbols, visions and apocalyptic language". What would you think if I said that? You'd think it was ridiculous. No, the Bible is a book of truth that is expressed in various ways including literal text, metaphors, euphemistic language, symbols, visions and apocalyptic language.

But I know the bible defines its own noon -literal passages so we do not have to rely on very subjective things like opinions, hairs standing up on the back of our neck, dreams, tiny voices in our head, and men who claim to have gotten "revelations" from God.

And by citing 1 Cor. 2:9-16 as ytour basis for as some call it "reading between the lines" or " spiritual understandings", you have ripped the verses out of its context and meaning.

You even cited the verse inyour defense then forget it! It is verse 9:

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

what Paul was talking about was not some deeper hidden meanings in Scripture but what god has and is preparing for His children! Not some additional revelation of Scriptures.

Did you not read the whole passage? Apparently not. So, I guess I need to spell this out to you since you couldn't be bothered to read past verse 10.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

Notice that Paul talked about the things "we speak". He was talking about himself and other Christian leaders including, no doubt, the disciples. What they spoke and what they wrote that we can read today was "not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth, comparing spiritual things with spiritual". And he said "the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.". So, he was saying that the things he spoke, many of which he also wrote in his epistles that we can read today, had to be spiritually discerned by way of the Holy Spirit. You understand that the Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit, right? Well, the Holy Spirit does not communicate the same way "the natural man" does, so that's why "the natural man" can't understand the deeper things in scripture. You interpret scripture just like "the natural man" does because you think it can be interpreted with no help from the Holy Spirit.

Even Peter considered Paul's writings to be difficult to understand.

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

While Peter said some of Paul's writings were hard to understand, he also indicated there is no excuse for not understanding them. And that is because the Holy Spirit helps us understand what he wrote. If you think you can understand those things without help from the Holy Spirit, you are sadly mistaken.

 

[PinSeeker]

Please show from Scripture how the land covenant is tied to the Messianic covenant or the seed of David having the throne forever.

LOL! I did, Ronald. In short, the true Promised Land is the whole earth (Matthew 5;5), and... wow, is Jesus not the greater David, the true forever-King of Israel?

Actually it was not specific aspects of the law, but the reinterpretation of the law by the Pharisees written and known as the sepharim, tanaiim, and gamera. The eye foir eye was a code of justice to be administered, but by the time Jesus came, it was reduced to level of vengeance.

Hmmm, I don't completely disagree; I like your code-of-justice clarification, that a punishment should fit the crime, but it's much more than just the Pharisaical understanding or lack thereof. Jesus clarifies what murder truly is, there, that it goes ~ as I said of adultery in my previous post ~ far beyond the mere outward act. Of murder specifically, He says, "You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I tell you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire." You seem to have missed the point.

I have no problem with the Mosaic Law (including the ten in stone) were fulfilled and done away with, but that was a conditional and temporary covenant.

I'm not sure if you're getting that from what I've said or not, but if so, that's not what I'm saying. Hey, Ronald, you know what Jesus says about the greatest commandments, right?

“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets” (Matthew 22:37-40).​

Do you not see Commandments 1 through 4 being summed up by the first and Commandments 5 through 10 being summed up in the second? Which speaks to the point I'm trying to get across to you yet again regarding "lesser" and "greater"...

The covenant for the land is an everlasting covenant for the people of ethnic Israel.

Right, I agree, but the lesser ~ think of it as a "prototype" given to "lesser" Israel (Israel before Jesus, which consisted of only ethnic Jews and a few foreigners/aliens mixed in) ~ points to the greater ~ the true and final manifestation, the whole earth, given to "greater" Isreal, which includes both Jew and Gentile, all those in Christ, consisting of people from every tongue, tribe, and nation.

And neither you, I or anyone else has seen , heard or had entered into our hearts, what god has in store for us in eternity.

We can certainly know what He has told us, in these latter days by and through His Son.

That still does not rule out the land belonging to ISRAEL AND THEY HAVING RULE OVER THE EARTH UNDER JESUS AND THE APOSTLES IN THE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM!

Again, concerning what you say strictly at face value, I don't disagree (not completely, anyway), but I do very much disagree with what you believe to be the nature of these things.

Just a question, really rhetorical, for you, Ronald, that may even seem to you to be non sequitur: Are you, as a believer in Christ, not seated with Him in the heavenly places right now? Paul, in Ephesians 2, says you are... <smile>

THERE IS ENORMOUS SCRIPTURE SUPPORTING THIS AND IT HAS NEVER BEEN DONE AWAY WITH

Hmmm, well, same as directly above. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Ronald.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

LOL! I did, Ronald. In short, the true Promised Land is the whole earth (Matthew 5;5), and... wow, is Jesus not the greater David, the true forever-King of Israel?

That is the promised land for Gentiles, Israel is the Promised land for Israel. LOL

Jesus will fulfill all the numerous OT prophecies guaranteeing Israel their land, Jerusalem as their capitol and the gentiles coming annually to bring sacrifices to the temple or face a drought in their millennial nation. It is all right there in Scripture.

Hmmm, I don't completely disagree; I like your code-of-justice clarification, that a punishment should fit the crime, but it's much more than just the Pharisaical understanding or lack thereof. Jesus clarifies what murder truly is, there, that it goes ~ as I said of adultery in my previous post ~ far beyond the mere outward act. Of murder specifically, He says, "You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I tell you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire." You seem to have missed the point.

No I didn't though you may disagree

I'm not sure if you're getting that from what I've said or not, but if so, that's not what I'm saying. Hey, Ronald, you know what Jesus says about the greatest commandments, right?

“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets” (Matthew 22:37-40).
Do you not see Commandments 1 through 4 being summed up by the first and Commandments 5 through 10 being summed up in the second? Which speaks to the point I'm trying to get across to you yet again regarding "lesser" and "greater"...

Well as I do not know whaere you are gong with your "greaster-lesser" theme. I missed the point you were trying to make. I know Jesus is teh greater David etc. But what is your point?

Again, concerning what you say strictly at face value, I don't disagree (not completely, anyway), but I do very much disagree with what you believe to be the nature of these things.

Just a question, really rhetorical, for you, Ronald, that may even seem to you to be non sequitur: Are you, as a believer in Christ, not seated with Him in the heavenly places right now? Paul, in Ephesians 2, says you are... <smile>

Yes I am as a member of His body.

Well the nature of these things are what Scripture says as written. You seem to be a "reader between the lines" or one of the many other names given to those who hold to an allegorical interpretation.

Hmmm, well, same as directly above. <smile>

Only if you allegorize teh literal and reinterpret it to mean something other than written.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You just want to ignore what the NT teaches.

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

This says "promises" (plural), and not just one promise. So, you can't get around this no matter what you do. but, you will try, anyway, because you believe what you want to believe.

So are you saying that when God confimred teh promies of the land as an eternal Jewish possession to Isaac, Jacob and the 12 tribes , He was lying to them?

You just want to ignore what the NT teaches.

No, I ignore what is allegorized about the NT.

Show me where the many promises made to Abrraham that are physical are confirmed in Jesus. Is Jesus the promised land with the boundaries god gave?

Notice that Paul talked about the things "we speak". He was talking about himself and other Christian leaders including, no doubt, the disciples. What they spoke and what they wrote that we can read today was "not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth, comparing spiritual things with spiritual". And he said "the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.". So, he was saying that the things he spoke, many of which he also wrote in his epistles that we can read today, had to be spiritually discerned by way of the Holy Spirit. You understand that the Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit, right? Well, the Holy Spirit does not communicate the same way "the natural man" does, so that's why "the natural man" can't understand the deeper things in scripture. You interpret scripture just like "the natural man" does because you think it can be interpreted with no help from the Holy Spirit.

So are you saying that what we call teh bible as written is not the meaning of what all these disciples taught? Where is your evidence and proof.

Who validates your "spiritual understandings"?

How can the average Christian validate you "spiritual understandings" of what is written? Paul praised the Bereans for looking at the Scriptures as written as being more noble. What Scripture do we have to validate you "spiritual understandings"?

 

[PinSeeker]

That is the promised land for Gentiles, Israel is the Promised land for Israel. LOL

Hmmm, well in the "Greater" context, you kinda just said the same thing twice. :) Except it's not just for Gentiles. :) Do you really think that Jews and Gentiles will be separated in eternity, either ethnically or physically?

Jesus will fulfill all the numerous OT prophecies guaranteeing Israel their land, Jerusalem as their capitol and the gentiles coming annually to bring sacrifices to the temple or face a drought in their millennial nation. It is all right there in Scripture.

<chuckles> You're surely not alone in thinking as you do. <SIGH> <smile>

No I didn't though you may disagree

Well, either you did miss it ~ because it's not so difficult that it would have gone over your head, I think ~ or you just totally side-stepped it and/or ignored it.

...as I do not know whaere you are gong with your "greaster-lesser" theme. I missed the point you were trying to make. I know Jesus is teh greater David etc. But what is your point?

Wait... You said you didn't miss the point, but now you're saying you did? <smile>

Well yeah, so you seem to get the lesser/greater thing, but maybe are not quite seeing it regarding other things, but that seems to me hard to believe. Okay, so, why is Jesus the Greater David, Ronald? I mean, I know, and I hope your understanding is the same as mine, but you can apply that same sort of reasoning to the fact that the Israelites before Jesus's first coming are together Lesser Israel, and in coming, Jesus opened the Gospel to everyone, so since then all believers are together ~ with Jewish believers... people of every tongue, tribe, and nation ~ Greater Israel.

Well the nature of these things are what Scripture says as written.

Sure it is, but yet many still get the nature of these things incorrect. Which was the point there.

You seem to be a "reader between the lines" or one of the many other names given to those who hold to an allegorical interpretation.

No, that's just a dispensational talking point, and a terrible ~ and intentional ~ mischaracterization.

The ironic thing is, in labeling these things as "allegorical," dispensationalists ~ because they do not take everything absolutely literally ~ are guilty of the same sorts of "allegorizations."

On top of that, though, even that very term ~ "allegorical" ~ is misused in this context anyway; 'symbolism' and allegory' are two very different things, Ronald.

Only if you allegorize the literal and reinterpret it to mean something other than written.

This "allegorization" meme is ridiculous, quite frankly. Dispensationalists just label things that way so they can create some kind of straw-man argument and then dismiss it. Nobody "reinterprets" anything, much less makes it into "something other than (what's) written," Ronald. That's just how dispensationalists dismiss what they've decided they want to dismiss.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So are you saying that when God confimred teh promies of the land as an eternal Jewish possession to Isaac, Jacob and the 12 tribes , He was lying to them?

LOL! Of course not, silly! Do you actually think I would answer yes to your goofy question? What I'm saying is that God had a great surprise in mind that He will give them far more than just that. Abraham was in that promised land and considered it to be "a strange country" (Hebrews 11:9). He, Isaac and Jacob realized that God had something even better in mind for them so that's why it says "they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth" (Heb 11:13) and "now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city" (Heb 11:16).

Do you deny that God's promises to Abraham and his seed were to Christ and those who belong to Christ, as Paul said in Galatias 3:16,29? Whatever you think that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the 12 tribes will inherit, Gentile believers will inherit as well, according to Paul. Gentile believers are fellowheirs of God's promises with Jewish believers (Ephesians 3:1-6). Do you have trouble accepting that?

And, here is what Peter said we should be looking forward to as an inheritance in accordance with the promise of the second coming of Christ:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Peter taught that, despite the heavens and earth being burned up when Christ returns, "we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness". The new earth is the eternal land that we will inherit. No existing land on this earth will be eternal, including the promised land that you think the Jews will inherit. It will be burned up and renewed.

Show me where the many promises made to Abrraham that are physical are confirmed in Jesus. Is Jesus the promised land with the boundaries god gave?

Is there something you don't understand about what Paul said here:

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

I really think that you do not accept much of what is taught in the New Testament. You apparently don't think that Paul knew what he was talking about. But, I know he did and I accept what he taught, unlike you.

So are you saying that what we call teh bible as written is not the meaning of what all these disciples taught? Where is your evidence and proof.

What do you mean "as written"? Why don't you allow the NT authors to tell you what the OT means? Can't you trust them? Don't be like
those people that Peter wrote about in relation to how you look at Paul's writings.

2 Peter 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

If Paul says that God's promises to Abraham and his seed were to one seed, which is Christ, we should accept that and not try to distort it.

Who validates your "spiritual understandings"?

The Holy Spirit. Do you not get validation from the Holy Spirit of your understanding of scripture? If not, then that reveals a serious problem.

How can the average Christian validate you "spiritual understandings" of what is written?

By studying the scripture for him or herself like the Bereans did (Acts 17:10-11) and allowing the Holy Spirit to confirm to them what is the truth in scripture.

Paul praised the Bereans for looking at the Scriptures as written as being more noble.

That is not what he said. Stop making scripture say what you want it to say.

Acts 17:10 As soon as it was night, the believers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Where does this say "Paul praised the Bereans for looking at the Scriptures as written as being more noble."? Nowhere! Stop making things up! He praised them for examining the scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true, but he said nothing about praising them for looking at the scriptures "as written". You have this false impression that all scripture is just literal and straightforward and easy to understand. If that was the case, then why did Peter say "His letters contain some things that are hard to understand" (2 Peter 3:16)? Are you more discerning then Peter, one of the NT authors, was? Do you say "no, Peter, nothing Paul wrote is hard to understand because it's all literal and straightforward so that even a random person off the street can understand everything he wrote"?

What Scripture do we have to validate you "spiritual understandings"?

All scripture in what we call the Bible. I'm pretty sure we're reading the same Bible, so this is no mystery as to what scripture we should be looking at here.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Hmmm, well in the "Greater" context, you kinda just said the same thing twice. :) Except it's not just for Gentiles. :) Do you really think that Jews and Gentiles will be separated in eternity, either ethnically or physically?

Well as I hve repeatedly said, the separation is for he Millennial kingdom. We do not know what eternity holds.

You're surely not alone in thinking as you do.

True! all wo hold that the bible as written is the Word of God think alike as I do.

Well yeah, so you seem to get the lesser/greater thing, but maybe are not quite seeing it regarding other things, but that seems to me hard to believe. Okay, so, why is Jesus the Greater David, Ronald? I mean, I know, and I hope your understanding is the same as mine, but you can apply that same sort of reasoning to the fact that the Israelites before Jesus's first coming are together Lesser Israel, and in coming, Jesus opened the Gospel to everyone, so since then all believers are together ~ with Jewish believers... people of every tongue, tribe, and nation ~ Greater Israel.

No we cannot apply the same reasoning! We apply what Scripture says as gods word never calls teh church a "greater Israel". I srael is Israel and the church is the church.

Sure it is, but yet many still get the nature of these things incorrect. Which was the point there.

Well the majority who get it wrong are those who through the allegorical method, decide to reinterpret Scripture.

No, that's just a dispensational talking point, and a terrible ~ and intentional ~ mischaracterization.

The ironic thing is, in labeling these things as "allegorical," dispensationalists ~ because they do not take everything absolutely literally ~ are guilty of the same sorts of "allegorizations."

On top of that, though, even that very term ~ "allegorical" ~ is misused in this context anyway; 'symbolism' and allegory' are two very different things, Ronald.

Yo0urs is just an allegorical talking point. We do not take everything literally because teh bible uses euphemisms, parables, allegory and apocalyptic language. It doesn't take special insight to recognize these in Scripture.

also Scripture defines everything it does not speak literally on. God did seek to hide teh truth from His children asnd reveal it only to "special people".

This "allegorization" meme is ridiculous, quite frankly. Dispensationalists just label things that way so they can create some kind of straw-man argument and then dismiss it. Nobody "reinterprets" anything, much less makes it into "something other than (what's) written," Ronald. That's just how dispensationalists dismiss what they've decided they want to dismiss.

When you call the church "greater Israel" you have reinterpreted Scripture. when you deny a third temple, you have reinterpreted Scripture. When one denmies teh rapture, they have reinterpreted Scripture. these are not straw men but real heretical concepts.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

also Scripture defines everything it does not speak literally on. God did seek to hide teh truth from His children asnd reveal it only to "special people".

Oh, really? So, tell me the identity of the woman who rides on the beast with seven heads and ten horns and tell me the identity of the beast.

Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

When you call the church "greater Israel" you have reinterpreted Scripture. when you deny a third temple, you have reinterpreted Scripture. When one denmies teh rapture, they have reinterpreted Scripture. these are not straw men but real heretical concepts.

When one, like you, denies that the rapture occurs after the tribulation, as Jesus taught in Matthew 24:29-31 (Mark 13:24-27), what does that say about you?

When one, like you, denies that there is one hour coming when all of the dead, will be resurrected, as Jesus taught in John 5:28-29, what does that say about you?

When one, like you, denies that all people will be judged at the same time, as Jesus taught in Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46, what does that say about you?

When one, like you, denies that no mortals will survive the return of Christ, as taught in passages like Matthew 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-37, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12 and Rev 19:17-18, what does that say about you?

So much for your literal approach to interpreting scripture. My views above are based on literal interpretations of all those scriptures I referenced. Your attempt to make it as if amillennialism is based on reinterpreting and spiritualizing scripture is a lie.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Oh, really? So, tell me the identity of the woman who rides on the beast with seven heads and ten horns and tell me the identity of the beast.

Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Revelation 17

King James Version

​

17 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

Well taking teh bible literally and knowing that when things are used as a symbol, that is easy!

When a woman is used as a symbol- it means a religious system. when it is described as a whore, it is a false religious system (When I srael worshipped the local gods, god called her whoring after other gods.)

But this passage defines who she is. She is Mystery Babylon-The MOTHER of all Harlots.

It is the revived Mystery Babylonian religion! The term Mother tells us that this religious system gave birth to all harlots or false religious systems and that is Babylon. teh mystery religion is still alive and well both within and with out the church.

When one, like you, denies that the rapture occurs after the tribulation, as Jesus taught in Matthew 24:29-31 (Mark 13:24-27), what does that say about you?

That is a misapplication of Scripture and pulling a verse out of context post tribbers are guilty of.

When one, like you, denies that there is one hour coming when all of the dead, will be resurrected, as Jesus taught in John 5:28-29, what does that say about you?

No, because the word used "hora" is defined as an hour, season or time. So we look at Scripture which speaks of three resurrections (2 for faithful, one for the lost after teh millennial kingdom) and accept what Scripture says as written and do not define it by just English words.

When one, like you, denies that all people will be judged at the same time, as Jesus taught in Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46, what does that say about you?

Three judgments. The bema judgment which Paul said is just for believers., the sheep goat judgment when Jesus sets up the Millennial kingdom on earth, and the great white throne judgment at the end of time, Just as Scripture says.

When one, like you, denies that the rapture occurs after the tribulation, as Jesus taught in Matthew 24:29-31 (Mark 13:24-27), what does that say about you?

When one, like you, denies that there is one hour coming when all of the dead, will be resurrected, as Jesus taught in John 5:28-29, what does that say about you?

When one, like you, denies that all people will be judged at the same time, as Jesus taught in Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46, what does that say about you?

When one, like you, denies that no mortals will survive the return of Christ, as taught in passages like Matthew 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-37, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12 and Rev 19:17-18, what does that say about you?

Without going into lengthy writings, I can only say this now- the gospels you omitted verses that show that people survive, and as for the rest- it is talking about the end of the millennial when all sorts of changes take place. god destroys the armies marching on Jerusalem, sets up the White Throne and eternity established.

Remember Matthew. when Jesus comes, He gathers the elect from the four corners of the earth and also gathers all the nations from the four corners- that is survivors! Armageddon occurs before the Millennial Kingdom not after! People over the earth will survive when Jesus returns! Yu should read many of the minor prophets and learn that many will ssurvie when Jesus fights the antichirstr and his hordes all the way back to Jerusalem, defeats him, ascends the mount of olives and splits it! And rescues teh Jews in Petra!

 

[PinSeeker]

Well as I hve repeatedly said, the separation is for the Millennial kingdom.

I'm... painfully aware of that. <smile> Ronald, I know nothing will convince you of this (at least for now), but you and I are living in the millennial kingdom ~ as everyone has been since Jesus came, was crucified, and resurrected, and since Pentecost. One day, we will all be living in the eternal kingdom... the New Heaven and New Earth. There is no separation at the end of the current age, but a reuniting, a reunion (of all those in Christ). There will actually be a separation, resulting from the final Judgment: the "tares" from the "wheat"... the unrighteous will depart, and sin and death will be no more.

We do not know what eternity holds.

Generally speaking, we absolutely do. <smile>

True! all wo hold that the bible as written is the Word of God think alike as I do.

So you think... <smile> But none of us in Christ are "disqualified" for any reason ~ or even "not as good" <smile> ~ thanks be to God.

No we cannot apply the same reasoning! We apply what Scripture says as gods word never calls teh church a "greater Israel". I srael is Israel and the church is the church.

We can; you misunderstand. This "Greater Israel," Ronald, is all of God's Israel, which consists of all those in Christ from Adam on, regardless of ethnicity. Yes, Israel is Israel, but... well, framed correctly, Greater Isreal is just another way of saying the Israel of God, the Household of God, which, when complete, will consist of all God's elect, those chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.

Well the majority who get it wrong are those who through the allegorical method...

As I said, everyone uses some kind of "allegorical method," which is a false allegation anyway. The correct way to say it is that none of us takes things absolutely woodenly literally, but some go way overboard with it. <smile> More than God in His Word than God Himself intends.

...decide to reinterpret Scripture.

<eye roll>

Yours is just an allegorical talking point.

Nope. Or, by the same definition, yours is, too. But the "allegorical" allegation is just a misapplication of that concept altogether.

We do not take everything literally because the bible uses euphemisms, parables, allegory and apocalyptic language. It doesn't take special insight to recognize these in Scripture.

Agreed. But... regarding your taking most everything absolutely literally, so far too much, as I said. <smile>

Also Scripture defines everything it does not speak literally on.

Ronald, that Revelation (and Revelation is not the only place in Scripture we can say this about) is very heavy on symbolism does not mean that it is light on literal things. And regarding Revelation specifically, the term "allegory" does not even apply.

God did seek to hide the truth from His children and reveal it only to "special people".

Agreed.

When you call the church "greater Israel" you have reinterpreted Scripture.

Absolutely not. See above.

...when you deny a third temple, you have reinterpreted Scripture.

We, Ronald ~ we, all those in Christ ~ are the Temple, which, right now, is still being built... by God. <smile> Paul is very clear about that in Ephesians 2:19-22.

When one denies the rapture, they have reinterpreted Scripture.

In your opinion. I mean, okay. No, but okay. <smile>

these are not straw men but real heretical concepts.

Ugh. <smile> Well, because what you're alleging are false concepts altogether of what I and other like-minded Christians are saying, they are then necessarily straw-man arguments, by definition. That was the very point.

Grace and peace to you, Ronald.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 17​

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King James Version​

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17 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

Well taking teh bible literally and knowing that when things are used as a symbol, that is easy!

When a woman is used as a symbol- it means a religious system. when it is described as a whore, it is a false religious system (When I srael worshipped the local gods, god called her whoring after other gods.)

But this passage defines who she is. She is Mystery Babylon-The MOTHER of all Harlots.

It is the revived Mystery Babylonian religion! The term Mother tells us that this religious system gave birth to all harlots or false religious systems and that is Babylon. teh mystery religion is still alive and well both within and with out the church.

And what religion is that exactly? You're not being very clear here. And, if this was spelled out for us, as you imagine with your literal approach, then why don't we all agree on this?

I also asked you the identity of the beast and you didn't answer that question.

That is a misapplication of Scripture and pulling a verse out of context post tribbers are guilty of.

Weak response. Back up your claims if you want to be taken seriously.

No, because the word used "hora" is defined as an hour, season or time. So we look at Scripture which speaks of three resurrections (2 for faithful, one for the lost after teh millennial kingdom) and accept what Scripture says as written and do not define it by just English words.

LOL! Look at you suddenly throwing your literal approach out the window. Interesting. So much for your literal approach. You obviously only use it when it's convenient for you to make scripture say what you want it to say. When taking something literally doesn't fit your view, then you don't take it literally and resort to nonsense like this.

Regardless of which of those definitions of "hora" you use, Jesus was still only referring to one coming "hora" during which all of the dead would be resurrected. But, your doctrine has three separate "horas" during which the dead will be resurrected. So, no matter how you define that word, your doctrine contradicts what Jesus said in John 5:28-29.

Three judgments. The bema judgment which Paul said is just for believers.,

Wrong. Paul does not teach that it is just for believers.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

It is not just believers whose knees will bow before the bema seat of Christ, but unbelievers will as well. Paul referenced this passage:

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Notice that even those who "are incensed against him shall be ashamed" on that day. So, unbelievers also will appear for the bema judgment. There is only one judgment day taught in scripture, not three. That's why it is always referred to as judgment day or the day of judgment.

Matthew 25:31-46 also makes it clear that both believers and unbelievers will appear before Christ to be judged.

the sheep goat judgment when Jesus sets up the Millennial kingdom on earth, and the great white throne judgment at the end of time, Just as Scripture says.

That is not a different judgment. It's the same one judgment that will occur when Jesus returns. All people will be gathered before Him and separated into two groups. The sheep represent believers and the goats represent unbelievers. Unbelievers will be cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41) at that point. When else does that happen except for after the thousand years, as can be seen in Revelation 20:15?

Without going into lengthy writings, I can only say this now- the gospels you omitted verses that show that people survive,

Not any mortals. Whenever you get around to it, show me that. I don't believe you.

and as for the rest- it is talking about the end of the millennial when all sorts of changes take place. god destroys the armies marching on Jerusalem, sets up the White Throne and eternity established.

You don't know what you're talking about. So much for taking scripture literally. Only when it's convenient for your doctrine, obviously.

Remember Matthew. when Jesus comes, He gathers the elect from the four corners of the earth and also gathers all the nations from the four corners- that is survivors!

That is talking about the gathering of the church when we meet Christ in the air. We, the church, are the elect! That is what scripture teaches repeatedly! Read the New Testament!

Armageddon occurs before the Millennial Kingdom not after!

Wrong. You assume that what is described in Revelation 19 occurs before what is described in Revelation 20, but you need to understand that Revelation is not in chronological order throughout. It has parallels in it. Just look at Revelation 11 and 12, for example. Revelation 12:5 describes the birth and ascension of Christ. Obviously, that did not happen after the seventh trumpet sounded since the seventh trumpet has not sounded yet.

People over the earth will survive when Jesus returns!

Only believers will survive because we will have immortal bodies at that point. But, no mortal unbelievers will survive. They can't possibly survive this:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Paul describes the destruction that will occur when Jesus returns as well, but just not with the same detail that Peter did.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

It's no wonder why Paul said "they shall not escape". They can't escape fire coming down on the entire earth.

Paul made it clear that all unbelievers will be killed when Christ returns here as well:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Does Paul make any exceptions here regarding "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" that any of them will survive? Absolutely not. Notice how my doctrine is based on taking scriptures like these literally? So much for you being consistent with your literal approach. If you were, then you'd be an amillennialist like me.

Yu should read many of the minor prophets and learn that many will ssurvie when Jesus fights the antichirstr and his hordes all the way back to Jerusalem, defeats him, ascends the mount of olives and splits it! And rescues teh Jews in Petra!

You should read the New Testament some time. It's great. You'll learn a lot, including how wrong your interpretations of the Old Testament are. You need to let the NT authors teach you how to interpret the OT prophecies. It makes it much easier.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I'm... painfully aware of that. <smile> Ronald, I know nothing will convince you of this (at least for now), but you and I are living in the millennial kingdom ~ as everyone has been since Jesus came, was crucified, and resurrected, and since Pentecost. One day, we will all be living in the eternal kingdom... the New Heaven and New Earth. There is no separation at the end of the current age, but a reuniting, a reunion (of all those in Christ). There will actually be a separation, resulting from the final Judgment: the "tares" from the "wheat"... the unrighteous will depart, and sin and death will be no more.

If this is Jesus kingdom, where Justice, Mercy, Truth, Righteousness reign and Jesus rules with a rod of iron and the Lion lies down with the Lamb and all Israel knows the Lord- then we need a refund! Sorry but teh Millennial kingdom and life in it is spelled out in detail in the Bible and this ain't it!

Generally speaking, we absolutely do

Generally speaking, we know very very little.

So you think... <smile> But none of us in Christ are "disqualified" for any reason ~ or even "not as good" <smile> ~ thanks be to God.

Well as I have learned here, there are many definitions for what disqualified and not as good mean, you need to spell those out for me so I do not misunderstand you

As I said, everyone uses some kind of "allegorical method," which is a false allegation anyway. The correct way to say it is that none of us takes things absolutely woodenly literally, but some go way overboard with it. <smile> More than God in His Word than God Himself intends.

prove it. I know I use applications to Scriptures like say Jonah, but allegorizing is totally different. So no we do not all allegorize in some "kind" The allegorical method of hermeneutics is a hereticasl and dangerous method of understanding Scripture.

Nope. Or, by the same definition, yours is, too. But the "allegorical" allegation is just a misapplication of that concept altogether.

Nope, when you take a passage and then says it means this.... and it is different than the passage you are allegorizing. and I am not talking about symbolic passages which are defined in Scripture itself.

Agreed. But... regarding your taking most everything absolutely literally, so far too much, as I said. <smile>

Not at all. I use the golden rule of interpretation which is the soundesat and safest way to understand Scripture.

Ronald, that Revelation (and Revelation is not the only place in Scripture we can say this about) is very heavy on symbolism does not mean that it is light on literal things. And regarding Revelation specifically, the term "allegory" does not even apply.

If it doesn't apply, then why do you allegorize passages that make plain sense taken literally and not redefined outside of SCriptural definitions.

Absolutely not. See above.

Absolutely SO!!!! No where in the bible is the "church" called either "greater Israel or Israel". Not one place.

We, Ronald ~ we, all those in Christ ~ are the Temple, which, right now, is still being built... by God. <smile> Paul is very clear about that in Ephesians 2:19-22.

So then you believe the man of lawlessness is going to possess believers then.

2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Ugh. <smile> Well, because what you're alleging are false concepts altogether of what I and other like-minded Christians are saying, they are then necessarily straw-man arguments, by definition. That was the very point.

If 99.99% of people believe something, and it is wrong- it is still wrong. Just like for over a millennia, 99% of the church believed teh bread and wine were the actual body and blood! They were wrong!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

And what religion is that exactly? You're not being very clear here. And, if this was spelled out for us, as you imagine with your literal approach, then why don't we all agree on this?

I also asked you the identity of the beast and you didn't answer that question.

Well as this is future, I cannot tell you with exactness what this one world super religion will be called, but it will have the similitude of the Mystery Babylon religion.

I also asked you the identity of the beast and you didn't answer that question.

Well if you want a name I cannot give that.

But the Beast of revelation is the Antichrist.

He is the son of Satan and a Romish woman (whether Italian or some other nation is unknown)

He will rise to power after the one world government and the ten kingsd. He will overthrow three of the ten and the 7 left will give allegiance to HIm. He becomes world ruler.

IOf you wish I can give you the many names He is called in SCripture.

LOL! Look at you suddenly throwing your literal approach out the window. Interesting. So much for your literal approach. You obviously only use it when it's convenient for you to make scripture say what you want it to say. When taking something literally doesn't fit your view, then you don't take it literally and resort to nonsense like this.

Regardless of which of those definitions of "hora" you use, Jesus was still only referring to one coming "hora" during which all of the dead would be resurrected. But, your doctrine has three separate "horas" during which the dead will be resurrected. So, no matter how you define that word, your doctrine contradicts what Jesus said in John 5:28-29.

No, it is you who is tossing grammar out the window to create a straw man.

"hora" normally means an hour, but it also means time and an undefined time! I am not symbolizing nor allegorizing the word hour, but keeping it in its proper context in light of all the Scriptures speaking of resurrection at the end of times. I do not toss out rules of grammar when studying Scripture! God created the rules and we should fastidiously use them as students of Gods Word

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

This is at teh end of the Millennial kingdom and not when Jesus physically returns to earth at what is called teh battle of Armageddon!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well as this is future, I cannot tell you with exactness what this one world super religion will be called, but it will have the similitude of the Mystery Babylon religion.

That's clear as mud. So much for everything being literal and straightforward.

Well if you want a name I cannot give that.

But the Beast of revelation is the Antichrist.

He is the son of Satan and a Romish woman (whether Italian or some other nation is unknown)

In scripture, the term antichrist refers to anyone who denies Christ. It never refers to an individual Antichrist. Also, the beast is not an individual, but a kingdom.

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

You can see here that prophetic beasts represents kingdoms. So, what kingdom does the beast of Revelation represent?
Why do you ignore that prophetic beasts are not just individuals, but also represent kingdoms.

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

No, it is you who is tossing grammar out the window to create a straw man.

"hora" normally means an hour, but it also means time and an undefined time! I am not symbolizing nor allegorizing the word hour, but keeping it in its proper context in light of all the Scriptures speaking of resurrection at the end of times. I do not toss out rules of grammar when studying Scripture! God created the rules and we should fastidiously use them as students of Gods Word

You believe in more than one coming time when all of the dead will be resurrected, but Jesus said there is only one coming time when all of the dead will be resurrected. One resurrection event, in other words. But, you believe in 2 or 3 future resurrection events. You make John 5:28-29 say whatever you want it to say.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

This is at teh end of the Millennial kingdom and not when Jesus physically returns to earth at what is called teh battle of Armageddon!

So, is that what you would say about this passage that talks about the day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night, also?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

To be consistent with how you interpret 2 Peter 3:10-12, I would assume you believe that 1 Thess 5:2-3 "is at the end of the Millennial kingdom and not when Jesus physically returns to earth at what is called the battle of Armageddon!"?

 

[PinSeeker]

If this is Jesus kingdom, where Justice, Mercy, Truth, Righteousness reign and Jesus rules with a rod of iron and the Lion lies down with the Lamb and all Israel knows the Lord- then we need a refund!

<smile> What you say here, Ronald, is quite similar in concept, actually, to what the Jews thought of the regarding the Messiah, God's Christ, even in Jesus's day. They thought the Messiah would be a great political and military leader who would conquer all their oppressors. Non-Messianic Jews then and even today affirm/assert/maintain that Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies by ushering in an era of universal peace (Isaiah 2:4), building the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26–28), and gathering all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5–6) and therefore was not the Christ and that the world is still waiting on His coming.

In like manner, so many Christians think along the same lines regarding His Kingdom. Now, not believing the Kingdom is here yet or that Christ is reigning now is surely not the same thing as not believing in Christ Himself. Certainly, if one does not believe in Christ, then he or she is not a Christian. But the concept is similar. Jesus ~ as I think you know ~ said several times even during His earthly ministry that the Kingdom was here then, and that He was King then. For sure, His reign now ~ His millennial reign ~ does not look how we want it to look, but that does not mean it has not come or is still yet future. <smile>

For now, even though it may not seem or look like it, we know that, as Paul says in Romans 8, "the Spirit helps us in our weakness... interceding for the saints according to the will of God..." "And... for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose..." "God is for us..." so noone "...can be against us." And "we are more than conquerors through Him Who loved us..." and "neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

But when Jesus does come back, when He returns, then there finally will be no more sin, and, as Isaiah (35:10) says, "everlasting joy shall be upon (our) heads; (we) shall obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away." And as John says in Revelation 21:4, "He will wipe away every tear from (our) eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things (will) have passed away." Regarding the Kingdom of God, this is the correct understanding of Scripture regarding the simultaneous "now and not yet." The Kingdom is here, just not yet in its fullness. But it will be. <smile> For sure, one day, our faith will be sight.

Sorry but the Millennial kingdom and life in it is spelled out in detail in the Bible and this ain't it!

I fully understand your thinking. <smile>

...there are many definitions for what disqualified and not as good mean, you need to spell those out for me so I do not misunderstand you

Well, I appreciate you not jumping to conclusions and attributing to me some meaning other that what I really do mean by these things (and thus creating some kind of straw-man argument)... <smile> ...as so often is the case in conversations like these. Regarding "disqualified" and/or "not as good," I'm using those terms euphemistically; I just mean that even among the many different understandings of the millennium of Revelation 20, what "camp" any one of us are in does not necessarily make us more or less Christian ~ or even more or less believing Scripture itself ~ than anyone in any other "camp." So, just between me and you, you saying I'm "denying Scripture" is ridiculous; understanding it differently here or there than you do cannot be characterized as me "denying Scripture."

So no we do not all allegorize in some "kind"

Ah, well, let me ask you this, Ronald. And this is rhetorical, really; I don't need an answer. But regarding this "beast" and "dragon" in Revelation 13, for example... I mean, when we think of a beast, we think of, like, a monster, or like a big huge scary animal, or the abominable snowman or something. <smile> Is it literally a beast of some sort? <smile> Or the dragon... I mean, we know what a dragon is, a big huge lizard with wings that flies and breaths fire... <smile> Are they real? <smile> Certainly they are symbolic of very real things...

...and I am not talking about symbolic passages which are defined in Scripture itself.

Ah, well, such as...? <smile>

So then you believe the man of lawlessness is going to possess believers then...
2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Hmmm... More could be said here, but I'll just point out what Christ Himself said in Matthew 24:23 regarding the last days: "...if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."

Grace and peace to you, Ronald.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That's clear as mud. So much for everything being literal and straightforward.

Well, it is literal, but we just don't know all the details as they were not given us. It is much for literal and straightforward. If you are upset that we do not have all the details, your problem is with God and not me.

In scripture, the term antichrist refers to anyone who denies Christ. It never refers to an individual Antichrist. Also, the beast is not an individual, but a kingdom.

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

You can see here that prophetic beasts represents kingdoms. So, what kingdom does the beast of Revelation represent?
Why do you ignore that prophetic beasts are not just individuals, but also represent kingdoms.

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

If this was just the only verse speaking of the fourth beast I would agree 100% But let us look at just a few from Daniel only! We can expand to others if you wish.

From Daniel 7:

7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

So we see a description of the fourth beast!

17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

Now the four beasts are four kings. It cannot symbolize kingdoms for the "melek" is used which only can mean a king!

19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

The fourth beast is different from all the others!

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

The fourth beast shall devour the whole earth- this has not happened yet. Rome nor Greece conquered even the known world.

In verse 23 we see the fourth beast spoken of as the fourth kingdom. that conquers the earth. It is different from all other realms or kingdoms.

And from this kingdom that is colloquially called by some as the one world government to come, arises ten kings that rule. and from these ten another horn arises (a king) and vanquishes three of the ten. He also is different than the first ten kings he arose and vanquished 3. He is the antichrist.

In Daniel 2 and the statue concerning the fourth kingdom (iron and then iron and clay) we see it in a united stage, then a divided stage , then the ten toes.

If we look at history and realize that the four gentile kingdoms mentioned run consecutively until the times of the gentiles is over as Je4sus declared, we see the kingdoms as
1. Babylon
2. Medeo -persi
3. Greece
4. The united stage (Roman Empire)
5. two legged stage (Rome split)
The roman republic in the east was Constantinople until the 14th-15th century, when the rulers fled to Russia Czar is taken from Cesar.
The west is more complicated First it was the Holy Roman Empire of the Germanic nation, Then the HRE of the Spanish Nation, the HRE of the French Nation, then it moved to England and America where it still resides as it does with Russia.

All these nations have drawn heavily from the first of the fourth beast kingdoms --Rome, in their governments. they were all Republics in some form

Sometime in teh future the fourth beast will become the one world govenment-either the UN or something that takes its place. From this the ten kings arise aqnd from them the antichrist ariises- and we could move to Matt 24, Thess. and REvelation to focus more on what He will do.

Remember these re four kingdoms that continue until Je3sus returns without break or gap.

Dan. 2:
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Dan. 7:

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The eleventh horn (the antichrist who arises in the time of the fourth beast shall rule until Jesus returns and takes his dominion away and we see that in Revelation.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

<smile> What you say here, Ronald, is quite similar in concept, actually, to what the Jews thought of the regarding the Messiah, God's Christ, even in Jesus's day. They thought the Messiah would be a great political and military leader who would conquer all their oppressors. Non-Messianic Jews then and even today affirm/assert/maintain that Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies by ushering in an era of universal peace (Isaiah 2:4), building the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26–28), and gathering all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5–6) and therefore was not the Christ and that the world is still waiting on His coming.

What they forgot or ignored is that Jesus had to come first to die for the sins of the world. He came first as the Suffering Savior. He shall return as the Conquering King. Jesus is not ruling the earth yet. If so then He forgot to tell Peter, Paul and John for they all wrote of Satan as still being the god of this world.

Ruling means having authority to act and judge and reward. Teh nations are not adhering to the King.

No I know Jesus had to come first to suffer and die and I know He will come again to conquer and reign and rule. As is written.

In like manner, so many Christians think along the same lines regarding His Kingdom. Now, not believing the Kingdom is here yet or that Christ is reigning now is surely not the same thing as not believing in Christ Himself. Certainly, if one does not believe in Christ, then he or she is not a Christian. But the concept is similar. Jesus ~ as I think you know ~ said several times even during His earthly ministry that the Kingdom was here then, and that He was King then. For sure, His reign now ~ His millennial reign ~ does not look how we want it to look, but that does not mean it has not come or is still yet future. <smile>

Jesus is our king (believers) and is trule king of all mankind but He has not yet established His reign on earth. Do you really think if Jesus was reigning and ruling over the earth now He would allow the massive debauchery going on globally?

Abortion
homosexuality
transgenderism
murder
theft
corruption
debt
famine
droughts
destructive floods

The bible does not describe the kingdom of Jesus as these things being global issues.

Ah, well, let me ask you this, Ronald. And this is rhetorical, really; I don't need an answer. But regarding this "beast" and "dragon" in Revelation 13, for example... I mean, when we think of a beast, we think of, like, a monster, or like a big huge scary animal, or the abominable snowman or something. <smile> Is it literally a beast of some sort? <smile> Or the dragon... I mean, we know what a dragon is, a big huge lizard with wings that flies and breaths fire... <smile> Are they real? <smile> Certainly they are symbolic of very real things...

Well if you bothere4d to read my earlier responses to yuo, you would know that literalism recognizes symbolism, euphemisms and drams and visions. but what we have learned is that Scripture defines those symbols as literal things. We do not allegorize but let Scripture define itself.

But when Jesus does come back, when He returns, then there finally will be no more sin, and, as Isaiah (35:10) says, "everlasting joy shall be upon (our) heads; (we) shall obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away." And as John says in Revelation 21:4, "He will wipe away every tear from (our) eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things (will) have passed away." Regarding the Kingdom of God, this is the correct understanding of Scripture regarding the simultaneous "now and not yet." The Kingdom is here, just not yet in its fullness. But it will be. <smile> For sure, one day, our faith will be sight.

If you read the OT passages you would know that the survivors of Armageddon will repopulate the earth with children and Jesus rules with rod of iron. sin will be vastly reduced because Satan is abyssed but people will sin. Otherwise a rod of iron is silly! And people will have till they are 100 to accept Jesus as Messiah. Those that are born after He returns. this is all in the OT about the Messianic Kingdom when Jesus takes control of the earth.

Well, I appreciate you not jumping to conclusions and attributing to me some meaning other that what I really do mean by these things (and thus creating some kind of straw-man argument)... <smile> ...as so often is the case in conversations like these. Regarding "disqualified" and/or "not as good," I'm using those terms euphemistically; I just mean that even among the many different understandings of the millennium of Revelation 20, what "camp" any one of us are in does not necessarily make us more or less Christian ~ or even more or less believing Scripture itself ~ than anyone in any other "camp." So, just between me and you, you saying I'm "denying Scripture" is ridiculous; understanding it differently here or there than you do cannot be characterized as me "denying Scripture."

Well I agree it doe not make anyone less Christian. but when I say one denies Scripture, I am not condemning but exhorting. Allegorical interpretations which deviate from teh words of Scripture is denying teh written word for an alterntive meaning other than wht is written. I have just stopped being so polite about it and saying it for what it is.

If you said you love the police and I came out and said, you merely tolerate the police- I am denying your words for a different meaning of my own making. Almost exclusivey that is what an allegorical hermeneutic does.

That is talking about the gathering of the church when we meet Christ in the air. We, the church, are the elect! That is what scripture teaches repeatedly! Read the New Testament!

That is what many think, but kept in its context it is the believers who survived the tribulation for at the same time He gathers the nations form the four corners as well and that is for judgment. Are you swaying Jesus will rapture the unbelievers as well?

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Ah, well, such as...? <smile>

Daniel 2, Daniel 7, the passages in revelation about the beast and lamb with horns etc. If one simply follows the golden rule of biblical interretation one knows these are not literal byt symbols which th ebible defines elsewhere.

Hmmm... More could be said here, but I'll just point out what Christ Himself said in Matthew 24:23 regarding the last days: "...if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."

Well of course! But the antichrist will be looked upon by the lost as Messiah. God sends that deception:

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

King James Version

​

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[WPM]

What they forgot or ignored is that Jesus had to come first to die for the sins of the world. He came first as the Suffering Savior. He shall return as the Conquering King. Jesus is not ruling the earth yet. If so then He forgot to tell Peter, Paul and John for they all wrote of Satan as still being the god of this world.

Ruling means having authority to act and judge and reward. Teh nations are not adhering to the King.

No I know Jesus had to come first to suffer and die and I know He will come again to conquer and reign and rule. As is written.

Jesus is our king (believers) and is trule king of all mankind but He has not yet established His reign on earth. Do you really think if Jesus was reigning and ruling over the earth now He would allow the massive debauchery going on globally?

Abortion
homosexuality
transgenderism
murder
theft
corruption
debt
famine
droughts
destructive floods

The bible does not describe the kingdom of Jesus as these things being global issues.

Well if you bothere4d to read my earlier responses to yuo, you would know that literalism recognizes symbolism, euphemisms and drams and visions. but what we have learned is that Scripture defines those symbols as literal things. We do not allegorize but let Scripture define itself.

If you read the OT passages you would know that the survivors of Armageddon will repopulate the earth with children and Jesus rules with rod of iron. sin will be vastly reduced because Satan is abyssed but people will sin. Otherwise a rod of iron is silly! And people will have till they are 100 to accept Jesus as Messiah. Those that are born after He returns. this is all in the OT about the Messianic Kingdom when Jesus takes control of the earth.

Well I agree it doe not make anyone less Christian. but when I say one denies Scripture, I am not condemning but exhorting. Allegorical interpretations which deviate from teh words of Scripture is denying teh written word for an alterntive meaning other than wht is written. I have just stopped being so polite about it and saying it for what it is.

If you said you love the police and I came out and said, you merely tolerate the police- I am denying your words for a different meaning of my own making. Almost exclusivey that is what an allegorical hermeneutic does.

That is what many think, but kept in its context it is the believers who survived the tribulation for at the same time He gathers the nations form the four corners as well and that is for judgment. Are you swaying Jesus will rapture the unbelievers as well?

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Daniel 2, Daniel 7, the passages in revelation about the beast and lamb with horns etc. If one simply follows the golden rule of biblical interretation one knows these are not literal byt symbols which th ebible defines elsewhere.

Well of course! But the antichrist will be looked upon by the lost as Messiah. God sends that deception:

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12​

​

King James Version​

​

​

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Repeated Scripture shows that Christ is reigning now! He is reigning upon high now! He is King! He is Lord. All power and authority belongs to Him now. Your false teaching causes you to dethrone Christ from His sovereign place reigning over His enemies today.

You don’t seem to understand the term "right hand of power." It means: He carries the Father’s divine authority. He is currently enthroned. He testified after His resurrection: “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18). This is sovereign kingship! He holds this today upon His Father’s throne. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority.

How much more power than “all power ... in heaven and in earth” does He need to exercise power and authority over His enemies?

This proves that Christ has already come and now exercises all power and authority today over all mankind. It means: He carries the Father’s divine authority. He is currently enthroned. This is Sovereign kingship! He holds this today upon His Father’s throne as God and upon David’s throne as Messiah. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority.

John says in Revelation 3:7, “These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath (present active particle) the key (or authority) of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.”

He holds all power (without qualification). After all, He is God! God either causes or permits - as He is God and He is sovereign. Simple! That is an explicit biblical truth and a Christian fundamental. The powerful language that accompanies the mention of Christ holding the key of David proves that this is referring to His majestic power and might that came with taking the Messianic throne of David. It says, “he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.” This speaks of spiritual power. The key allows Christ to sovereignly open and shut in a way that no man can thwart or override.

Philippians 2:9-11 says, “wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

He reigns today over the seen and the unseen world making every power and every authority “subject unto him.”

Heaven’s authority is bestowed upon Christ. He is God! Colossians 2:9-10, 14-15 confirms: "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power … Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”

He rules intimately over His spiritual kingdom as Messiah and sovereignly over the physical kingdoms of the world and over all mankind as God.

 

[PinSeeker]

Ruling means having authority to act and judge and reward.

Jesus, Who is seated at the right hand of the Father, certainly does these things now.

Teh nations are not adhering to the King.

Right. But their lack of adherence does not lessen the fact that Jesus is King now. As He said, His Kingdom is not of this world.

...He will come again to conquer and reign and rule.

Right, and then in person, not merely (although it is certainly no mere thing) in the Spirit. In the same way, we are right now seated with Him in the heavenly places (Ephesians 2) in the Spirit.

As is written.

Certainly. <smile>

Do you really think if Jesus was reigning and ruling over the earth now He would allow the massive debauchery going on globally?

I think for now, Ronald, as Paul says in Romans 1, those who practice such things God has given up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, to dishonorable passions, to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done, and, as Paul says in Romans 9, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles. And as Paul also says in Romans 8, despite all these things, God works all things together ~ for those who love Him, for those who are called according to His purpose ~ for good. If He were not reigning, right now, this would not be the case. That's what the whole of John's Revelation is about, Ronald, that despite how bad it may seem to us, God is in full control of all history and is bringing His plan to completion in Christ, Who is the Victor.

The bible does not describe the kingdom of Jesus as these things being global issues.

And one day, when He returns, executes the final Judgment, and ushers in the New Heaven and New Earth, the Kingdom in its fullness, they will no longer be.

We do not allegorize but let Scripture define itself.

Ah, well, okay, but... poorly... <smile>

when I say one denies Scripture, I am not condemning but exhorting.

Ah, well maybe you should change your... methodology... <smile> ..,because it is a pronouncement of condemnation, and you have no power to do this, only God does. <smile>

Allegorical interpretations which deviate from the words of Scripture is denying the written word for an alternative meaning other than what is written.

Okay, well, again, there is no "allegory." This is just demagoguery.

...saying it for what it is.

You're not. <smile> Again, acknowledging symbolism ~ which folks of like mind as you do, too ~ in no way acknowledges "allegory." But if you insist on doing that, then, like I said, you have to point the finger at yourself as well. <smile>

Are you saying Jesus will rapture the unbelievers as well?

LOL! Well, I'd first have to believe in a "rapture" to believe that, right, Ronald? So no...

Grace and peace to you, Ronald.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Right. But their lack of adherence does not lessen the fact that Jesus is King now. As He said, His Kingdom is not of this world.

That is correct and it is still true today! Jesus kingdom is not on earth today. The kingdom principles and "attitudes" are in teh hearts of believers, but that is not the physical kingdom promised and prophesied.

Jesus, Who is seated at the right hand of the Father, certainly does these things now.

So where is the riotousness on earth? where is Jesus seated in Jerusalem? If He is ruling the earth, given the evil that continues to grow- He would be seen as an impotent king.

Right, and then in person, not merely (although it is certainly no mere thing) in the Spirit. In the same way, we are right now seated with Him in the heavenly places (Ephesians 2) in the Spirit.

Yes and being already seated is for believers. But Jesus is not physically ruling the earth! He reigns in heaven but the earth is still under the dominion of the god of this world as Paul and Peter and John wrote.

Ah, well maybe you should change your... methodology... <smile> ..,because it is a pronouncement of condemnation, and you have no power to do this, only God does. <smile>

Well I cannot control what and how people think, only tell them if they think I am doing something I am not.

Ah, well, okay, but... poorly... <smile>

As you say because you love to allegorize.

Okay, well, again, there is no "allegory." This is just demagoguery.

No it is allegory. Once again an example- If you say You love the police and then I report you desire sex with them, I have allegorized your words.

You're not. <smile> Again, acknowledging symbolism ~ which folks of like mind as you do, too ~ in no way acknowledges "allegory." But if you insist on doing that, then, like I said, you have to point the finger at yourself as well. <smile>

Well then you do not read my posts carefully, for not only do I acknowledge symbols but go onto detail to show how scripture itself defines those symbols. we need not look outside Gods Word to find th emeaning of the symbols god uses.

LOL! Well, I'd first have to believe in a "rapture" to believe that, right, Ronald? So no...

Well if it happens in our lifetime, You will see. I rest 100% confident that Jesus will perfomr the great "catching up" aka rapture.