Christian Liberty Forced me to Leave Dispensationalism

[PinSeeker]

Agree to here

Good...

in Romans 11 Paul definitely separates the true

In Romans 11 Paul says the same thing as he says at the end of Ephesians 2, which I cited and you just agreed with.

There is us (gentiles, or the unnatural branches)... then their is them: and they are Natural branches

Sure, but we are grafted in... By definition, this means we are united as one and the same. Grafting is a process within horticulture ~ you know this, I think; if not, you are about to... <smile> ~ where the tissues of a plant are joined together so that they may continue to grow as one plant. Yes, we are "wild olive shoots" but have been "grafted in among the others..." ~ made one with, made as the natural ~ "... and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree..." (Romans 11:17). Yes, all the people of God ~ the Israel of God ~ are represented by the branches, some natural and some grafted in from the wild, but all made one and the same. And thus, again, Paul ends up at verses 25-26 of Romans 11, where he finally writes, "a partial hardening has come upon Israel..." (ethnic Jewish believers) "...until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in..." (Gentile believers) "...and in this way all Israel..." (from every tongue, tribe, and nation) "...will be saved..."

Prophecy tells us...

Yes it does, but it's much greater (and much more inclusive) than you make it out to be.

It is an error to think as far as eternity goes that there was ever a separation.

Exactly. I mean, I'm very clearly arguing against any notion of a separation, so obviously (it should be obvious, anyway) I agree with you here. However, it is also an error to think God's people was ever, is, or ever will be based on ethnicity. We're talking about Paul, as ethnically Jewish as anyone could possibly be, saying things like the following:

"...no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter" (Romans 2:28-29).

"...not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring" (Romans 9:6-8).

And again, "a partial hardening has come upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..." (Romans 11:25-26)

He says the same things to the Ephesians: "Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called 'the uncircumcision' by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands ~ remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, Who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through Him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit" (Ephesians 2:11-22)

And I always cite Hebrews 1:1-2 in these conversations: "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world."

Israel was given a plot of land and promised peace...

And this was indicative in an earthly way of the greater, true promise, that, as Jesus says in Matthew 5:5, the meek shall inherit the earth.

...they were never promised salvation.

Wow. They were, EG. From Genesis 3:15 on. And all through the Old Testament. Now, they were never promised that the Messiah would come and be this great military leader who would conquer all their enemies as they thought. That was never the true promise. This misunderstanding certainly played a big part in their "missing" Him, and, yes, contributed to His being crucified. And yes, the misunderstanding still remains.

Grace and peace to you, EG.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The Apostolic Church began at Pentecost, and today we identify the Church by its fidelity to Apostolic doctrine. But Christ's one holy catholic (universal) Church has always been. As Paul says in Ephesians 2, even to us Gentiles, we "are no longer strangers and aliens, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him (we) also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

You will need to take that up with Jesus HImself:

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Notice? Jesus did not say, will keep building, or continue to build or have been building. He said, I WILL (future) build MY church. Jesus one holy catholic church began at Pentecost.

Ah, well, He's telling Peter what He will continue doing. And on what... <smile> ...not who, unless we say on Himself <smile> Paul talks about the temple ~ also church ~ being built on the apostles and the prophets at the end of Ephesians 2...

Now you are altering Scripture. He did not say continue, but will- a future construction, not a continuing construction. I do not think we need to correct the Lord Jesus in His use of grammar.

Nope. One and the same. Just the one quote that "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel" (Romans 9:6) should be more than sufficient to understand that. And a second of course, "a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved" (Romans 11:25-25)

Sorry, but Paul made a clear distinction in His writings between the nation of Israel and the church. He also made a difference between ethnic Israel and the Israel of God which is Jews who are saved.

In those days, Israel did consist of mostly ~ but not all ~ ethnic Jews. There were foreigners/aliens in the commonwealth of Isreal then, which foreshadowed the grafting in of Gentile believers. The better way to say it is something like this:

The coming New Covenant was prophesied to "lesser" Israel, the Israel of the Old Testament, lesser in the sense that it was limited to mainly (but not totally, as I said) ethnic Jewish believers and a foreshadowing of the "greater" Israel to come... which would begin to become a reality when Jesus came... and greater in the sense that it would be inclusive of believers of all ethnicities, from every tongue, tribe, and nation.

Geez, too bad God didn't know how to say that and we have you to correct God for us! What has the church done for 2 millenia without you telling us what God really meant?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I am sorry brother.

But for me to think God is going to resurrect me, and leave Abraham, David, Daniel, and other great God fearing jews in the grave intol the tribulation is over or some other date I will not and can not buy.

Well we will all see. It doesn't matter if you cannot buy it. It is biblical.

Actually that would be the tribulation saints, who died during the tribulation. it does not matter if they are Israel or not. The rest of the OT saints will be resurrected when I am, be it at this time, or earlier.

Well we will both find out if you are correct or mistaken in time.

The goats are the lost. The sheep are the found..

Jesus shepherds the sheep and he wants us to help shepherd the flock.

Yep, but the Matthew 25 passage is about the survivors of the tribulation. also all the surviving remnants of Israel will be saved three days before Jesus returns. It is their having the veil removed from their eyes and crying "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" that causes Jesus to return, just as SCripture has declared.

I think it is better to say the saved (believers) enter the kingdom. the lost (non believer) will not.

Well the church will be in heaven already when Jesus returns. So those resurrected in Rev. 20 are the OT saints and the saints who died in the trib. The survivors that are gathered from the four corners of the earth by the angels are the living believers when Jesus returns.

Remember, Jesus marryi89ng the church takes place in heaven in REv. 19 which is before Jesus returns to earth.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Good...


In Romans 11 Paul says the same thing as he says at the end of Ephesians 2, which I cited and you just agreed with.

Um no he did not.

lets look at romans 11

11 I say then, has God cast away His people? (SADLY this is what many people think, he has cast away Israel) Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

So God has not cast away Israel. even today there is a remnant according to grace

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day.”
9 And David says:
“Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them. 10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, And bow down their back always.”

Here he shows,. yes, much of israel has not obtained it. But he says they were blinded. And this was all prophesied.. That many of Israel would be blind and not see.

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

Notice. here Paul separates gentiles from the jews.

6 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and [d]fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

pauls first warning to gentile believers. don;t boast against the jews.

also. A gentile is a wild olive tree. where a jew is a regular branch.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, [e]goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

again, a seperation

1. You - gentile believer, grafted in, wild olive tree. unnatural
2. They, natural branch, cut off but able to be grafted in again, much more easier than you were. because they are natural branches.

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion,

here is another warning to us (gentile believers) that we are not ignorant of a mystery and we should not be wise in our own opinion.

what is the mystery?

that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

the first part. is as he already spoke of. Israel is blinded in part - meaning there is still a remnant according to grace (Vs 5)
As he also spoke, they are blinded (Vs 7-10)

26 And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written:

All Israel. as we have already established, Israel is 1 The natural branch, Blinded in part. were cut off because of unbelief, and if they repent will be grafted back in.

What it is not. any gentile whether saved or not

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

Again, God made a covenant with Jacob, who is Jacob? israel.he will take away their sins, and he will repent.

but what about now. what about today? How should we act?


28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

we need to remember, they are our enemies concerning the gospel. because they have a different gospel.
But concerning the calling of God. they are still to be beloved, remember in the promise to abraham. I will bless them who bless you and curse them who curse you..


29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

God gave them a gift. He made them a chosen nature. Gods gifts are irrevocable. Not only to them, but to you.

God keeps his promises.

to long so will break up

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Sure, but we are grafted in... By definition, this means we are united as one and the same. Grafting is a process within horticulture ~ you know this, I think; if not, you are about to... <smile> ~ where the tissues of a plant are joined together so that they may continue to grow as one plant. Yes, we are "wild olive shoots" but have been "grafted in among the others..." ~ made one with, made as the natural ~ "... and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree..." (Romans 11:17). Yes, all the people of God ~ the Israel of God ~ are represented by the branches, some natural and some grafted in from the wild, but all made one and the same. And thus, again, Paul ends up at verses 25-26 of Romans 11, where he finally writes, "a partial hardening has come upon Israel..." (ethnic Jewish believers) "...until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in..." (Gentile believers) "...and in this way all Israel..." (from every tongue, tribe, and nation) "...will be saved..."

Your taking it too far.

1. the time of the gentile is the time God has given the kingdom to the gentile 9the church) I would also say it co0incides with the time of denials beasts. who will rule over Israel for a time.

2. In context. Israel is Israel. Gentiles believers are gentile believers.

the only thing they have in common is the root (which is christ)

Yes it does, but it's much greater (and much more inclusive) than you make it out to be.

interesting, since your is basic. everyone will become one,.

Gentiles are not left out. they never were. but this is not about gentiles. this is about Israel. (see above)

Exactly. I mean, I'm very clearly arguing against any notion of a separation, so obviously (it should be obvious, anyway) I agree with you here. However, it is also an error to think God's people was ever, is, or ever will be based on ethnicity. We're talking about Paul, as ethnically Jewish as anyone could possibly be, saying things like the following:

You will have to speak to God on this matter. All over the OT he called them his people. he seperated them out. they are a chosen nation.

He did this for a purpose. they will still fulfill their purpose.

"...no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter" (Romans 2:28-29).

"...not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring" (Romans 9:6-8).

Romans 9 is talking about salvation, and arguing against the jews who are saying by being a jew, they get an automatic in.,

lets stick to romans 11. which is a total different context.

And again, "a partial hardening has come upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..." (Romans 11:25-26)

And then (at the time) all Israel will be saved.

Not and then, it will be completed.

He says the same things to the Ephesians: "Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called 'the uncircumcision' by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands ~ remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, Who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through Him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit" (Ephesians 2:11-22)

And I always cite Hebrews 1:1-2 in these conversations: "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world."


And this was indicative in an earthly way of the greater, true promise, that, as Jesus says in Matthew 5:5, the meek shall inherit the earth.

Your trying to mix the earthly promises made to ne nation with the heavenly promises made to all nations.

That is where your error comes in

As paul said, is God done with them? No..

Wow. They were, EG. From Genesis 3:15 on. And all through the Old Testament. Now, they were never promised that the Messiah would come and be this great military leader who would conquer all their enemies as they thought.

Actually yes they were. it was part of the hidden mystery of God. that the messiah and suffering servent were the same person and would come at 2 different times.

He had to save us eternally, before he could save them physically. He will rule from Isreal (jerusalem0 and he will at that time punish any family that does not come to jerusalem to worship him.

That was never the true promise. This misunderstanding certainly played a big part in their "missing" Him, and, yes, contributed to His being crucified. And yes, the misunderstanding still remains.

Grace and peace to you, EG.

Their issue is they misunderstood the law. and who they were. because of the hidden mystery.

God had to keep the truth from satan. And sadly the jews bought the same lie satan believed in.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well we will all see.

yes we will.. so lets see what happens

It doesn't matter if you cannot buy it. It is biblical.

Thats your view.

Well we will both find out if you are correct or mistaken in time.

yes, amen just like the jews found out when christ came what the prophecied about this meant..

Yep, but the Matthew 25 passage is about the survivors of the tribulation. also all the surviving remnants of Israel will be saved three days before Jesus returns. It is their having the veil removed from their eyes and crying "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" that causes Jesus to return, just as SCripture has declared.

Well the church will be in heaven already when Jesus returns. So those resurrected in Rev. 20 are the OT saints and the saints who died in the trib. The survivors that are gathered from the four corners of the earth by the angels are the living believers when Jesus returns.

Remember, Jesus marryi89ng the church takes place in heaven in REv. 19 which is before Jesus returns to earth.

I disagree in part

yes the church will be ressurected. But the church is one, from adam all the way to the last one who was ressurected.

God does not seperate the jews in this way..

 

[PinSeeker]

...you are altering Scripture.

Okay, well no, I'm not. You may say I'm misunderstanding it, but not "altering" it, and even so, that is merely your opinion. I say you are not understanding it correctly. And like I said, I'm perfectly fine with you labeling what I'm saying as my opinion.

...Paul made a clear distinction in His writings between the nation of Israel and the church. He also made a difference between ethnic Israel and the Israel of God which is Jews who are saved.

The only distinction is the latter... between ethnic Israel and the Israel of God. But the Israel of God is not limited to saved Jews but includes saved Gentiles. I will say this, that if ~ if, but this doesn't seem to be the case ~ if in referring to Jews you are referring to those who are true Jews of God's Israel ~ as Paul did in Romans 2:28-29, which I pointed out before ~ then (and only then) I agree with you. All born again of the Spirit and in Christ are of God's Israel and true Jews of God's Israel, regardless of ethnicity, as I have said.

Geez, too bad God didn't know how to say that and we have you to correct God for us!

LOL! <smile> This issue is understanding God correctly, Ronald.

What has the church done for 2 millenia without you telling us what God really meant?

LOL! <eye roll> See above.

yes the church will be ressurected. But the church is one, from adam all the way to the last one who was ressurected.

Well, everyone will be resurrected, right, EG? But some will be resurrected to one thing (eternal life), and the others will be resurrected to quite another (judgment). Right? I mean, that is, after all, what Jesus says in John 5:28-29...

God does not separate the jews in this way.

Exactly. Which kind of speaks to what you and I are discussing... <smile> I'll respond to your posts shortly... and I mean 'shortly' in at least a couple of different ways (a. in time, and b. succinctly, not abruptly)... <smile>

Grace and peace to you both!

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Um no he did not.

Yes, he did. :) He says it in a different way, but it's pretty much the same thing. All his letters are that way; if you compare them to each other, you'll see him saying the same things in slightly different ways.

...Paul separates gentiles from the jews.

He talks about them separately at first, but He's talking about God's elect, and what he's getting at ~ and does ~ is that those among God's elect will ultimately be of all ethnicities... because it is not based on ethnicity... not limited to just outward (ethnic) Jews, but rather inward Jews, Jews of God's Isreal, made so by the Spirit (Romans 2:28-29). His theme since Romans 8 is that there is no more condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1), and those in Christ Jesus are God's elect, who He gathers from Jew and Gentile alike (Romans 9-11). And he finally reveals how all of God's Israel will be saved... by bringing all the Gentile elect in and removing the partial hardening ~ partial because not all ethnic Jews are among the elect ~ now on Israel. Ethnicity is not a factor at all regarding salvation. He's telling the Gentiles that they are just as eligible as Jews are! And, this is what he's saying, albeit in a different ways, to the Ephesians in Ephesians 1 and 2, particularly 2:11-22.

A gentile is a wild olive tree. where a jew is a regular branch.

Yes, but grafted in, which is ~ as I said ~ a horticulture metaphor whose point is that it is no different from the "regular"...? ...the natural; the wild is made just as the natural. And he goes on to say that some of the natural branches broken off will be grafted in again. And Jesus is the root... :) ...the true vine, and all we in Him are the branches (John 15:5). <smile>

Your taking it too far.

I say you're making it out to be something different than it is. <smile> And doing a lot of gymnastics to do it... <smile> Because... Well, I'll leave it at that. <smile>

the only thing they have in common is the root (which is christ)

LOL! And that's all that's needed; that's what makes them all one... <smile> ...that they ~ we ~ are in Christ, yes, the Root. One in Christ, which Paul says in several places:

• "...we, though many, are one body in Christ" (Romans 12:15)
• "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28)
• "...let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body" (Colossians 3:15)

Ugh. The gymnastics of dispensationalism... <smile>

Grace and peace to you, EG.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Okay, well no, I'm not. You may say I'm misunderstanding it, but not "altering" it, and even so, that is merely your opinion. I say you are not understanding it correctly. And like I said, I'm perfectly fine with you labeling what I'm saying as my opinion.

Well when you say it says something other than what is written, that is altering Scripture. Call it what you will, but to define something differently than what is written is an alteration.

The only distinction is the latter... between ethnic Israel and the Israel of God. But the Israel of God is not limited to saved Jews but includes saved Gentiles. I will say this, that if ~ if, but this doesn't seem to be the case ~ if in referring to Jews you are referring to those who are true Jews of God's Israel ~ as Paul did in Romans 2:28-29, which I pointed out before ~ then (and only then) I agree with you. All born again of the Spirit and in Christ are of God's Israel and true Jews of God's Israel, regardless of ethnicity, as I have said.

there is absolutely nothing in Scripture that says saved Gentiles are the Israel of God- that is a forceful interpretation on the passage.

LOL! <smile> This issue is understanding God correctly, Ronald.

That is what all you allegorizers say. God said this, but He really meant this! If you won't take God's Word at face value, why should I take your words at face value and not allegorize them as you do Gods word

LOL! <eye roll> See above.

I see, God hid it from millions of believers until someone like you could come along and figure out what God really meant instead of meaning what He said in His Word.

 

[Douggg]

"Christian Liberty" as stated in the Westminster Confession and repeated in the 1689 Baptist Confession, reads:

"God alone is Lord of the conscience, and has left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men which are in any thing contrary to his word, or not contained in it."

When I first began discussions with Amillennialists, in trying to defend my Dispensationalist views, I began to notice I was too often trying to refute an Amil's reference to a clear statement of Scripture with my idea of truth; but I began to notice I was not refuting the Amil with Scripture, but with the footnotes in a Dispensationalist study Bible. I was taking the annotations and footnotes of man's word as the truth, rather than God's word.

As a teenager, I noticed that there were no Seven Dispensations stated in the Bible and the reason given to me for them, I saw I could just as easily come up with 3 or 2 or even as many as 9; so, there was no biblical requirement to believe in the Seven. I began to question the footnotes.

The Dispensationalist told me that there was a difference between the "kingdom of God" and the "kingdom of heaven", but that is only in Study Bible footnotes, not in the Scripture. Using a parallel of the gospels or harmony, I saw that Matthew usually used "kingdom of heaven", when Mark and Luke would write "kingdom of God" in the same time and context; and then Jesus used the terms interchangeably:

"Then Jesus said to his disciples, 'Truly I tell you, it will be hard for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.'” (Matt 19:23-24 NRSV)

The conquest of the promised land began about 1450 BC, and scholars believe Joshua was written in the late 7th Century BC. If we use a date of 600 BC and count the time in years up to 1948, we have a little over 2500 years. With that in mind, did the promise to Abraham take more than 2500 years(and still counting) to be accomplished?

"Thus the LORD gave to Israel all the land that he swore to their ancestors that he would give them; and having taken possession of it, they settled there. And the LORD gave them rest on every side just as he had sworn to their ancestors; not one of all their enemies had withstood them, for the LORD had given all their enemies into their hands. Not one of all the good promises that the LORD had made to the house of Israel had failed; all came to pass." (Josh 21:43-45 NRSV) See this repeated in 23:14-16

"I will not drive them out from before you in one year, or the land would become desolate and the wild animals would multiply against you. Little by little I will drive them out from before you, until you have increased and possess the land." (Exod 23:29-30 NRSV)

Trying to stretch that "little by little" up to 2500+ years is ridiculous! Did the word of God state a lie in Josh. 21:43-45 and 23:14-16; or are the footnotes of study Bibles the actual word of God? I began to see my holding to the footnotes in contradiction to what God said, to border on blasphemy. These are just a couple of examples of how God's word itself drove me out of Dispensationalism.

Dispensationalism is a man-made approach to organize the bible into 7 so-called dispensation periods, each with a different way of how, according to dispensationalists, God has interacted with man.

Abandoning dispensationalism is simply no longer going by that approach to understanding the bible. I, myself, am not a dispensationalist and never have been.

 

[PinSeeker]

Well when you say it says something other than what is written, that is altering Scripture.

But you only think I am. That I used a word or two that is not explicitly used means nothing. Generally speaking, the same things(s) can be said a number of different ways, Ronald.

...to define something differently than what is written is an alteration.

That's not what I did, but only your opinion.

there is absolutely nothing in Scripture that says saved Gentiles are the Israel of God...

Not that they "are" the Isreal of God, but that they are of the Israel of God... just as much a part of it as any of God's elect regardless of tongue, tribe, or nation.

That is what all you allegorizers say.

Ah, "allegorizers." LOL!

If you won't take God's Word at face value...

But I do, Ronald, I just don't read them in such a simple, wooden way as you believe them to be.

I see....

No, you don't, and that's the issue.

God hid it from millions of believers...

Of course not...

...until someone like you could come along and figure out what God really meant instead of meaning what He said in His Word.

<eye roll>

I will say this, that there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit, and to each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good, and all these gifts are empowered by one and the same Spirit, Who apportions to each one individually as He wills (1 Corinthians 12:4-11), and among these gifts of the Spirit are wisdom and knowledge. Of course, this can sometimes be hard to accept (because of sin... humility and pride, among others), but it surely does not make any one of us "better" or "more Christian" than any other. But, well, God's thoughts and ways are much higher than ours (Isaiah 55:8-9), and somehow He works all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose (Romans 8:28).

Grace and peace to you, Ronald.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

But you only think I am. That I used a word or two that is not explicitly used means nothing. Generally speaking, the same things(s) can be said a number of different ways, Ronald.

Sorry but you are not saying the same thing in a different way. I can easily and readily accept that. You are changing the meanings of what is written.

That's not what I did, but only your opinion.

No that is the fact. You took scripture and then redefined it to your opinion.

Not that they "are" the Isreal of God, but that they are of the Israel of God... just as much a part of it as any of God's elect regardless of tongue, tribe, or nation.

Gods elect in the dispensation of the church is the church comprised of both Jew and Gentile. But God made an eternal covenant with Abraham, Isaac , Jacob and their seed, which is ethnic Israel. We do not become Israel just because we are saved. Israel is Israel, the church is the church and in the Millennial, we have different destinies, roles and rewards.

No, you don't, and that's the issue.

Nice of you to rip my words out of their context. NOT!

But I do, Ronald, I just don't read them in such a simple, wooden way as you believe them to be.

No you don't and proved so when you retranslate and redefine what God says. Taking things at their face value and defining them in their normal usual way is not wooden- it is basic understanding.

Of course not...

You think He did, because your teaching is not the norm

I will say this, that there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit, and to each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good, and all these gifts are empowered by one and the same Spirit, Who apportions to each one individually as He wills (1 Corinthians 12:4-11), and among these gifts of the Spirit are wisdom and knowledge. Of course, this can sometimes be hard to accept (because of sin... humility and pride, among others), but it surely does not make any one of us "better" or "more Christian" than any other. But, well, God's thoughts and ways are much higher than ours (Isaiah 55:8-9), and somehow He works all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose (Romans 8:28).

wisdom and knowledge is not an ability that does not exist to "read between the lines" or see hidden meanings" in the Word of God. It is sad that so many believers have bought th elie that "wisdom" "knowledge" and "spiritually discerned" have fully accepted that the written word is not the real word but the hidden meanings are what matter.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Well, yes, but dispensationalism says that God, through those dispensations, has dealt with people differently from one dispensation to the next. Which I think you agree with, I'm just saying, but I'll say this, too: Dispensationalism can be described in a sort of tongue-in-cheek manner as "God's series of Plan Bs." <smile> In other words, That however many times (because there is disagreement on the number even among dispensationalists), the thought is, "Well, God tried 'A,' and it didn't work, so He decided to do try 'B' instead..." ... Many, many passages, Old Testament and New, could be pointed out here to argue against dispensationalism, but the clearest and most succinct to me is Hebrews 13:5... "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever." <smile>

Well at least you do not know what dispensationalism teaches which explains your very wrong statement here.

 

[PinSeeker]

Sorry but you are not saying the same thing in a different way.

Yet more opinion. I mean, I respect it, but... <smile>

You are changing the meanings of what is written.

Nope.

No that is the fact. You took scripture and then redefined it to your opinion.

In... your opinion... <smile>

Gods elect in the dispensation of the church is the church comprised of both Jew and Gentile.

It always did.

But God made an eternal covenant with Abraham, Isaac , Jacob and their seed, which is ethnic Israel.

But "ethnic Isreal" was indicative of God's true Isreal, which was always the case. "...it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring..." This was always the case, Ronald.

We do not become Israel just because we are saved.

We obviously disagree on that. And, what Paul says in Romans 9-11 is very clear:

• "...to (the Israelites) belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises... (but) not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring... even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles..."
• "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved... through (the Jews') trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles... "
• "(Gentiles are) grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree... "
• "(Jews), if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again... "
• "a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved"

And then together with Ephesians 1-2:

• "(God) chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will..."
• "In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will..."
• "In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it..."
• "Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh... were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ."
• For He himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in His flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility..."
• "For through Him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father."
• So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit."

Israel is Israel, the church is the church and in the Millennial, we have different destinies, roles and rewards.

Well, Israel is Israel, I agree with that, just not in the... limited... way you do.

Nice of you to rip my words out of their context.

Did no such thing; I just made an implicit statement concerning your "seeing."

No you don't and proved so when you retranslate and redefine what God says.

In... your opinion.

Taking things at their face value and defining them in their normal usual way is not wooden- it is basic understanding.

Well, "basic," yes, as in overly simple.

You think He did...

No, I don't, Ronald.

...your teaching is not the norm...

There are a lot of "norms" out there, and that's certainly an issue. :)

wisdom and knowledge is not an ability that does not exist to "read between the lines" or see hidden meanings" in the Word of God. It is sad that so many believers have bought th elie that "wisdom" "knowledge" and "spiritually discerned" have fully accepted that the written word is not the real word but the hidden meanings are what matter.

Nothing is hidden.

Well at least you do not know what dispensationalism teaches which explains your very wrong statement here.

<chuckles> It's not really directly about what it "teaches," Ronald, but the errant inferences it draws from Scripture and unavoidable false implications it leads to regarding Scripture.

Grace and peace to you, Ronald.

 

[marks]

Thats too bad. Before I ever picked up a theology book or owned a reference/study bible, I was told I was a dispensational 5 point believer. I had to find out what they meant!

If you wish to do a summary list of things you believe dispensationalists believe that are not biblical, maybe we can have an open discussion about it.

After 50 years and reviewing the arguments between dispensational and covenant theology, form the viewpoints of proponents of both, I am more convinced that the full dispensational theology does the least amount of harm to the Scriptures.

both views are man made hermeneutics and both have problems but I believe dispensational theology does the least harm.

If one disregards all the different ideas of what the "dispensations" are, it's easy enough to see in the Bible. The repeated sacrifices of the Law were replaced in the once for all sacrifice Jesus made. That's a dispensational difference, just like the giving of the Law itself was.

Much love!

 

[marks]

If we are looking at paul. yes I would agree

But we can look further.

The age of innocence (from creation until the fall)

The best way to look at it is dispensationalists split history into different sections. As you showed. we are in the age or dispensation of grace right now. It has its own characteristics which separates it from other dispensations.

Another way to think of it in terms of why it is different. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. even Abraham believed and was counted as righteous.. But the age of grace is a separate term or dispensation. It is not how people are saved (as some insist it is and falsely accuse) it is just a different age..

Whenever God changed the rules. When He exiled Adam and Eve. When He gave the Law. When Jesus died and rose again.

Dispensation, the KJV translation from oikonomia, "house law", was used in it's meaning "to dispense", as oikonomia refers to the way the household was run to provide for the needs of it's occupants. Of course our word economy is derived from this word.

There are various times in Scripture in which God changed how He gives salvation to men. It's always in believing Him, however, what He says that people believe changed. First, don't eat from that tree. Later, build this boat, later still, you will have innumerable descendants, later still, keep these commandments, later still, Believe in Me, the Messiah.

Each of these only applied to those who heard them.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Gods elect in the dispensation of the church is the church comprised of both Jew and Gentile. But God made an eternal covenant with Abraham, Isaac , Jacob and their seed, which is ethnic Israel. We do not become Israel just because we are saved. Israel is Israel, the church is the church and in the Millennial, we have different destinies, roles and rewards.

I think we should let Paul tell us who Abraham's seed is instead of you.

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ....And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

You seem to have a lot of trouble accepting what the New Testament teaches. You say God made an eternal covenant with the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and that their seed is ethnic Israel. Paul says God's promises to Abraham and his seed were made to Christ. And if you belong to Christ, then you also are "Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise". That includes Gentile believers. But, you don't want to accept that. You don't really care much for Paul, apparently, and you'd rather believe what you want to believe than accept what he taught.

No you don't and proved so when you retranslate and redefine what God says. Taking things at their face value and defining them in their normal usual way is not wooden- it is basic understanding.

Do you take verses like Galatians 3:16 and Galatians 3:29 at face value?

wisdom and knowledge is not an ability that does not exist to "read between the lines" or see hidden meanings" in the Word of God. It is sad that so many believers have bought th elie that "wisdom" "knowledge" and "spiritually discerned" have fully accepted that the written word is not the real word but the hidden meanings are what matter.

You speak as if the entire Bible only contains literal text, which is obviously not the case. So, again, you don't seem to accept what Paul taught. He said in 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 that the deeper things of God, many of which we discuss on this forum, must be spiritually discerned through the Holy Spirit. This doesn't mean we should spiritualize scripture that is literal. No, that's not the point and is not what spiritual discernment means. The point is that we need the Holy Spirit's help at times to discern what in scripture is literal, what is figurative, what is poetic, what is metaphorical, what is hyperbolic, what is Apocalyptic and so on.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ....And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

You seem to have a lot of trouble accepting what the New Testament teaches. You say God made an eternal covenant with the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and that their seed is ethnic Israel. Paul says God's promises to Abraham and his seed were made to Christ. And if you belong to Christ, then you also are "Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise". That includes Gentile believers. But, you don't want to accept that. You don't really care much for Paul, apparently, and you'd rather believe what you want to believe than accept what he taught.

You seem to forget that God made more than one promise to Abraham. The land promise was given to Abraham, confirmed with Isaac and then confirmed to Jacob aka Israel as an eternal covenant.

But simply being an heir of Abraham does not make one an Israelite nor a spiritual Israelite. To be an Israelite one had to be an heir of Abrahm Isaac and Jacob.

Abraham had another son, Ishmael, Isaac had Esau so those children are heirs of Abraham but not Israelites.

Do you take verses like Galatians 3:16 and Galatians 3:29 at face value?

In their context? 100%

You speak as if the entire Bible only contains literal text, which is obviously not the case. So, again, you don't seem to accept what Paul taught. He said in 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 that the deeper things of God, many of which we discuss on this forum, must be spiritually discerned through the Holy Spirit. This doesn't mean we should spiritualize scripture that is literal. No, that's not the point and is not what spiritual discernment means. The point is that we need the Holy Spirit's help at times to discern what in scripture is literal, what is figurative, what is poetic, what is metaphorical, what is hyperbolic, what is Apocalyptic and so on.

Well let me correct your misunderstanding of what I speak. the bible is a literal book. It does contain metaphors, euphemistic language, symbols, visions and apocalyptic language. But I know the bible defines its own noon -literal passages so we do not have to rely on very subjective things like opinions, hairs standing up on the back of our neck, dreams, tiny voices in our head, and men who claim to have gotten "revelations" from God.

And by citing 1 Cor. 2:9-16 as ytour basis for as some call it "reading between the lines" or " spiritual understandings", you have ripped the verses out of its context and meaning.

You even cited the verse inyour defense then forget it! It is verse 9:

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

what Paul was talking about was not some deeper hidden meanings in Scripture but what god has and is preparing for His children! Not some additional revelation of Scriptures.

 

[PinSeeker]

The land promise was given to Abraham...

Right, but this "lesser" covenant ~ lesser in the sense of the immediate fulfillment when Moses (actually God, by pillar of cloud by day and fire by night) led the Isrealites through the desert to the promised land in Exodus ~ pointed to the "greater" covenant ~ greater in the sense of the true and final fulfillment in Christ, Who said, as you will remember, "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth," (Matthew 5:5) and thus leads us to the true Promised Land, the earth, and even the New Heaven and New Earth, which we will inherit with Christ Jesus as co-heirs.

We should think about all these things, Ronald, in the same context as:

1. Jesus's "You have heard it said... But I tell you..." statements regarding specific aspects of the Law. There might be a better way to state this, but transgressions of the Law, like, for example, adultery, always really were and are much, much greater than just the outward act, they are matters of the heart.

2. Paul's general statement about the Law in Galatians 3: "the Law was our guardian (or tutor) until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian (or tutor), for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith."

3. The writer of Hebrews when he says, "...a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the Law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God... This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant... For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the Law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever."

This idea of "lesser" and "greater" pervades Scripture.

what Paul was talking about was not some deeper hidden meanings in Scripture but what god has and is preparing for His children! Not some additional revelation of Scriptures.

Ah! Much agreed! You're talking about the "greater" here! See?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Right, but this "lesser" covenant ~ lesser in the sense of the immediate fulfillment when Moses (actually God, by pillar of cloud by day and fire by night) led the Isrealites through the desert to the promised land in Exodus ~ pointed to the "greater" covenant ~ greater in the sense of the true and final fulfillment in Christ, Who said, as you will remember, "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth," (Matthew 5:5) and thus leads us to the true Promised Land, the earth, and even the New Heaven and New Earth, which we will inherit with Christ Jesus as co-heirs.

Please show from Scripture how the land covenant is tied to the Messianic covenant or the seed of David having the throne forever.

1. Jesus's "You have heard it said... But I tell you..." statements regarding specific aspects of the Law. There might be a better way to state this, but transgressions of the Law, like, for example, adultery, always really were and are much, much greater than just the outward act, they are matters of the heart.

Actually it was not specific aspects of the law, but the reinterpretation of the law by the Pharisees written and known as the sepharim, tanaiim, and gamera. The eye foir eye was a code of justice to be administered, but by the time Jesus came, it was reduced to level of vengeance.

This idea of "lesser" and "greater" pervades Scripture.

I have no problem with teh Mosaic Law (incldu9ing the ten in stone) were fulfilled and done away with, but that was a coniditional and temporary covenant. Teh covenant for teh land is an everlasting covenant for the people of ethnic Israel.

Ah! Much agreed! You're talking about the "greater" here! See?

And neither you, I or anyone else has seen , heard or had entered into our hearts, what god has in store for us in eternity.

That atill does not rule out the land belonging to iSRAEL AND THEY HAVING RULE OVER TEH EARTH UNDER JESUS AND THE APOSTLES IN THE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM! tHERE IS ENORMOUS sCRIPTURE SUPPORTING THIS AND IT HAS NEVER BEEN DONE AWAY WITH