Chinese naval ships came within 12 nautical miles of American soil

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Angelina

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heretoeternity

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The media maybe should hype more the factors within the country which are detrimental to the country, and if left unchecked will do more harm than any outside force..ie abortion, homosexuality, porno, corruption, legal and illegal drugs, corrupt monetary system with mounting debt (federal reserve), starting wars around the planet...time to clean up the cesspool at home, instead of fueling more paranoia at home for a very dumbed down population...you get it?
 

Angelina

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The media maybe should hype more the factors within the country which are detrimental to the country, and if left unchecked will do more harm than any outside force
At least you've got the general idea. You're an Aussie aren't you... The country is vulnerable atm, particularly in the east coast area.

.ie abortion, homosexuality, porno, corruption, legal and illegal drugs, corrupt monetary system with mounting debt (federal reserve), starting wars around the planet...time to clean up the cesspool at home, instead of fueling more paranoia at home for a very dumbed down population...you get it?
...not gonna do much good cleaning up a country if the country is under attack from enemy forces...
 

HammerStone

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Well, the difference is that China did this while the President was visiting Alaska and going above the arctic circle for the first time ever (a sitting President, that is). There's show and tell, then there's more deliberate messages from a country where the male population will soon well outnumber the female population, prompting unrest. Need we even mention the theatrics of the Chinese economy as well?

China is shifting to offensive sea capabilities though they do remain a few years away. At the same time this went on, they paraded a new "carrier killer" missile in a large parade commemorating the end of WWII. While none of it is cause for key immediate concern, I remind everyone of Russia patrolling an aging ship off of the coast a few years back given where we are at now in that relationship. They're also building the first of two (likely nuclear-powered) carriers which would triple their current carrier capability. And carriers are rather purely offensive weapons in most military doctrines.

I agree we are in trouble at home with typical prosperity-time problems, but keep in mind that party patrolling the waters off of the coast is the same party that has the largest foreign-owned share of that debt problem.
 

HammerStone

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The potential for the US would be a costly regional war to push the US out of the neighborhood (the Pacific), and I think this is something that China is working towards in possessing the capability with the plan to exercise it at some point in the future. At issue here is I don't think many understand exactly how nationalistic is the collective Chinese psyche. Obviously, Americans can have the same problem to a large degree, but I'd submit that Chinese nationalism is American exceptionalism on steroids. Couple that with some looming issues like ~30 million surplus males (CNN report) and some hints that the Chinese economy, while dynamic, may not be exactly what it appears to be, and you have inevitable issues needed to keep the populace busy as history has proven over and over.

The rub comes in the line as to where it goes from a burgeoning nation simply asserting itself to a nation intent on controlling natural resources (eg: land and sea) to the detriment of those around it. This, of course, fully involves our various treaties and obligations in the area.

It at least bears watching.
 

River Jordan

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Yes we should pay attention, but I think the last thing China wants is to start a military war with the United States and its allies (e.g., NATO countries). I mean, we are literally talking WWIII here. If China is going to dominate, it will be economically. That is the currency the world deals in today. Military conquest and rule just doesn't work like it used to.
 

heretoeternity

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A few years back (actually around 50 some odd years) Kruschev and the USSR were sabre rattling, and figured the USA was ripe for invasion, but President Kennedy outstared him, and they actually became quite friendly on their red telephones...meanwhile USSR ally Mao Tse Tung of China disagreed with Kruschev saying give us fifty or one hundred years, and the USA will destroy themselves from within, and we can take over without any war...hmmm Do you think Mao was right?
 

HammerStone

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Yes we should pay attention, but I think the last thing China wants is to start a military war with the United States and its allies (e.g., NATO countries). I mean, we are literally talking WWIII here. If China is going to dominate, it will be economically. That is the currency the world deals in today. Military conquest and rule just doesn't work like it used to.
We can all war game and Monday Morning QB, so I am as guilty as the next here, but I think WWIII would be more of a regional low intensity conflict that flares up to something greater around the Middle East. A war with China would be a regional war, complete with the asymmetrical elements of cyber attacks, etc. Nuclear ability would remain a deterrence from all-out war outside of tactical smaller attacks, and we could obviously never win a boots on ground war with China on its home turf. China would only be interested in pushing us out of the area, rather than beating us to a pulp, facing much the same issues on our home turf. What I would call a very alpha male mission. It pretty much would be the same for the US, to keep shipping lanes and commerce open and to project power as the hegemon both regionally and abroad.

What scares me about China is the hyper nationalist sentiment coupled with demographic issues. I see some reasonable parallels with Japanese expansion in the early middle portion of last century. An overconfidence in ability will lead to an overconfident attack, al-la Pearl Harbor. The asymmetric warfare side also drastically lowers the barrier to entry into war. China's already proven it has no qualms about stealing any data or damaging a system. It's not a Red Dawn style attack (which interestingly enough saw pressure for the Chinese foes of the remake to be replaced by North Korea) with an EMP, but rather a cyber blitzkrieg that would see com systems, satellites, and weapons sabotaged or destroyed followed by quick strikes on carrier battle groups and other regional assets that would likely not miss the carriers out to sea like Pearl Harbor did (in what I believe was nothing but Divine doing). It may even be a few symbolic attacks on the American mainland, but that would significantly increase the chance of WWIII.

Why do you think we're now building a new anti-missle and anti-aircraft system to upgrade the current Phalanx system? Precisely because this is the type of attack we'll get. Most of our status is derived from the ability to field a carrier armada which is currently larger than the remainder of the world's combined. China having 3 is not an immediate threat, but China having 5-6 coupled with abundant anti-carrier measures would be a threat, and ostensibly this is where they are going. If someone is building the exact weaponry to take you down and patrolling ships off the coast close to your traveling leader, then it has to be taken seriously.


If China is going to dominate, it will be economically. That is the currency the world deals in today. Military conquest and rule just doesn't work like it used to.
My response to this would be to read Lord of the Flies. We keep repeating this "end of history" style narrative, but the reality is that two of say top 3 or 4 populated continents in the world experience almost constant warfare. Last century, it's estimated over a hundred million died (this fairly reliable guy says 160 million) and like near a million already have this century. Needless to say, quasi-gov-orgs like IS(IS/IL) and AQAP continue to gain traction and ebb and flow. Economics undoubtedly help to entangle allies and enemies, but this is the same myth that civilization told itself first in the late 1800s and early 1900s, and then came the war to end all wars. I really do wish we'd get past this oversimplified narrative that the world was so much less connected than it is now and therefore unlikely (versus being less likely) to enter a conflict. That's undoubtedly true for things like the internet, but commerce has long taken place. Please try not to get caught up in this imperialist narrative that us civilized folk have it mostly figured out. We don't.


A few years back (actually around 50 some odd years) Kruschev and the USSR were sabre rattling, and figured the USA was ripe for invasion, but President Kennedy outstared him, and they actually became quite friendly on their red telephones...meanwhile USSR ally Mao Tse Tung of China disagreed with Kruschev saying give us fifty or one hundred years, and the USA will destroy themselves from within, and we can take over without any war...hmmm Do you think Mao was right?
And as the Visigoths began to ravage the countryside, I am pretty sure similar thoughts would have been voiced in the Roman world that it was just another barbarian horde to be put down. There is no reason to assume that any country is indefinite. We should not work ourselves into any kind of paranoia or pre-emptive frenzy, but asymmetric warfare has further changed the game from even 50-60 years ago. Kennedy also was partly to blame for the mess in the first place, having made his own blunders. It's the old story of two ships colliding in the night; that's what starts wars. Lucikly, cooler heads prevailed with the USA v USSR showdown.
 

River Jordan

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HammerStone said:
We can all war game and Monday Morning QB, so I am as guilty as the next here, but I think WWIII would be more of a regional low intensity conflict that flares up to something greater around the Middle East. A war with China would be a regional war, complete with the asymmetrical elements of cyber attacks, etc. Nuclear ability would remain a deterrence from all-out war outside of tactical smaller attacks, and we could obviously never win a boots on ground war with China on its home turf. China would only be interested in pushing us out of the area, rather than beating us to a pulp, facing much the same issues on our home turf. What I would call a very alpha male mission. It pretty much would be the same for the US, to keep shipping lanes and commerce open and to project power as the hegemon both regionally and abroad.
I agree.

What scares me about China is the hyper nationalist sentiment coupled with demographic issues. I see some reasonable parallels with Japanese expansion in the early middle portion of last century. An overconfidence in ability will lead to an overconfident attack, al-la Pearl Harbor. The asymmetric warfare side also drastically lowers the barrier to entry into war. China's already proven it has no qualms about stealing any data or damaging a system. It's not a Red Dawn style attack (which interestingly enough saw pressure for the Chinese foes of the remake to be replaced by North Korea) with an EMP, but rather a cyber blitzkrieg that would see com systems, satellites, and weapons sabotaged or destroyed followed by quick strikes on carrier battle groups and other regional assets that would likely not miss the carriers out to sea like Pearl Harbor did (in what I believe was nothing but Divine doing). It may even be a few symbolic attacks on the American mainland, but that would significantly increase the chance of WWIII.
And what exactly does China have to gain from all this? Are you saying you think they're going to turn into a cult of personality society?

Why do you think we're now building a new anti-missle and anti-aircraft system to upgrade the current Phalanx system? Precisely because this is the type of attack we'll get. Most of our status is derived from the ability to field a carrier armada which is currently larger than the remainder of the world's combined. China having 3 is not an immediate threat, but China having 5-6 coupled with abundant anti-carrier measures would be a threat, and ostensibly this is where they are going. If someone is building the exact weaponry to take you down and patrolling ships off the coast close to your traveling leader, then it has to be taken seriously.
I don't think anyone is saying "Don't take this seriously" or "Don't be prepared", but I just don't see China attacking the US unprovoked. It would be ridiculously costly to all sides, possibly even sending the entire world in to chaos....and to what end?

I think the idea of military conquest of the world is over. The community of nations is much too integrated now. If China were to pull some sort of stunt like an overt attack (a la Pearl Harbor), they'd basically be taking on most of the rest of the developed world. It makes no strategic sense.

My response to this would be to read Lord of the Flies. We keep repeating this "end of history" style narrative, but the reality is that two of say top 3 or 4 populated continents in the world experience almost constant warfare. Last century, it's estimated over a hundred million died (this fairly reliable guy says 160 million) and like near a million already have this century. Needless to say, quasi-gov-orgs like IS(IS/IL) and AQAP continue to gain traction and ebb and flow.
Sure, there will always be local skirmishes and battles, but I was talking about large-scale military conquest, i.e., what Germany and Japan tried to pull off in WWII. I think those days are over.

Economics undoubtedly help to entangle allies and enemies, but this is the same myth that civilization told itself first in the late 1800s and early 1900s, and then came the war to end all wars. I really do wish we'd get past this oversimplified narrative that the world was so much less connected than it is now and therefore unlikely (versus being less likely) to enter a conflict. That's undoubtedly true for things like the internet, but commerce has long taken place. Please try not to get caught up in this imperialist narrative that us civilized folk have it mostly figured out. We don't.
Again, anyone who actually attacks the US is immediately taking on most of the rest of the developed world. China knows better than that. They're not stupid.
 

heretoeternity

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HS you can thank President Kennedy for saving the planet from nuclear war back in 1962...things were very hot, with the Soviet Union, and President Kennedy's toughness and diplomacy avoided nuclear missiles being put in Cuba by the SU....then there were real headlines in the press such as "Soviet ships bound for Cuba carrying nuclear ICBMs" and "President Kennedy orders blockade of the highseas" and "Soviet ships carrying missiles turn back"...now that is headlines worthy of comment..
As for your other comments, you seem to fail to realize that all empires have destroyed themselves from within, because of turning away from God...God enables and blesses, and also disables and curses when people turn away from Him...
BTW President Kennedy, as Presidents Lincoln and McKinley before him, tried to revert to the constitutional debt free, interest free money system for the governments, by going outside the federal reserve and having money printed by the treasury department, without the issuing of debt/interest accruing treasury bills...do some research and you will realize what these three presidents had in common!