Catholic tradition, not the Bible, teaches a change to Sundaykeeping.

[Brakelite]

Yeah right! Here is a statement below that an SDA once shared with me which clearly refutes your point.

The counterfeit Gospel is out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ.

Let's see if you are brave enough to answer the following question honestly.
Does disobeying any of the ten commandments affect your salvation?

 

[mailmandan]

Let's see if you are brave enough to answer the following question honestly.
Does disobeying any of the ten commandments affect your salvation?

See Romans 3:23 and Romans 6:23.

 

[Brakelite]

See Romans 3:23 and Romans 6:23.

Very good. And sin is the transgression of the law right? Therefore the law and the gospel are connected.

 

[mailmandan]

Very good. And sin is the transgression of the law right? Therefore the law and the gospel are connected.

Galatians 2:16 - knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Galatians 3:24 - Therefore, the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

Interesting connection. So much for that statement in blue from post #19 which culminates in salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works."

 

[Wrangler]

Nowhere in the Bible does it teach a change from Sabbath to another day, there is no verse which changes the seventh day Sabbath to the first day of the week.

People confuse the Sabbath with "the Lord's Day" (meaning Resurrection Sunday).

It is not about changing the Sabbath, which I hold is a divine gift to us. It is about living as a new creation in God's Anointed.

 

[Brakelite]

People confuse the Sabbath with "the Lord's Day" (meaning Resurrection Sunday).

It is not about changing the Sabbath, which I hold is a divine gift to us. It is about living as a new creation in God's Anointed.

I see no evidence in scripture that "the Lord's day" refers explicitly to Sunday, unless I'm missing something. I do see scriptures that explicitly refer to the Sabbath as "My holy day", "My" being the Lord, therefore affirming the Sabbath as being the Lord's day.
As far as I see the evidence in scripture, the change that Hobie is talking about is certainly real, albeit futile. Any attempt by man to claim "the Lord's day" is different now than it used to be without any scriptural warrant for doing so, insults God and places man in a rather unenviable position. Hence why scripture in Daniel r refers to the Antichrist power as changing times and laws restricts such arrogance to only thinking about it. Sad that so many honour those thoughts and uphold them as if they are sacred.

 

[Brakelite]

Interesting connection. So much for that statement in blue from post #19 which culminates in salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works."

So you believe that Jesus redeemed you from the penalty of sin and from death, but skips any attempt to recreate man in His own image and empower him to obey the law in the future? I suggest that redemption includes both. The gospel includes both. Grace brings us to Christ, grace brings Christ to us. Grace justifies, Grace sanctifies.
“Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. ”
Romans 3:31 KJV
“3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. ”
Romans 8:3,4

 

[RedFan]

I see no evidence in scripture that "the Lord's day" refers explicitly to Sunday, unless I'm missing something. I do see scriptures that explicitly refer to the Sabbath as "My holy day", "My" being the Lord, therefore affirming the Sabbath as being the Lord's day.
As far as I see the evidence in scripture, the change that Hobie is talking about is certainly real, albeit futile. Any attempt by man to claim "the Lord's day" is different now than it used to be without any scriptural warrant for doing so, insults God and places man in a rather unenviable position. Hence why scripture in Daniel r refers to the Antichrist power as changing times and laws restricts such arrogance to only thinking about it. Sad that so many honour those thoughts and uphold them as if they are sacred.

I agree in part, but I have a different view on whether a bona fide calendar mistake "insults God." Keeping holy every seventh day, whether it is a Saturday or a Sunday, is what God demands of us. That some of us may have mixed up which day of the week was intended to be set aside -- and I am not saying who is right and who is wrong here -- will not incur His wrath as long as we act in good faith and continue to keep the "Sabbath" regularly. The intention of our hearts is what He sees.

 

[Brakelite]

Keeping holy every seventh day, whether it is a Saturday or a Sunday, is what God demands of us.

Actually, the commandment is very explicit. It says the "Sabbath of the Lord thy God". God blessed just one specific day. The seventh.

That some of us may have mixed up which day of the week was intended to be set aside -- and I am not saying who is right and who is wrong here -- will not incur His wrath

Is there really any widespread confusion as to which day is the seventh day? The Jews have been keeping the exact same day without interruption for 3500 years. Changes to the calendar made no difference to the way they counted from 1 to 7.

 

[mailmandan]

So you believe that Jesus redeemed you from the penalty of sin and from death, but skips any attempt to recreate man in His own image and empower him to obey the law in the future?

Which law is that?

I suggest that redemption includes both. The gospel includes both.

So, the gospel you teach is salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works? So, you agree with the statement made by that SDA in post #19?

Grace brings us to Christ, grace brings Christ to us. Grace justifies, Grace sanctifies.

Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

It's only by the grace of God that we have been justified and sanctified. (Acts 20:32; 1 Corinthians 6:11)

“Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. ”
Romans 3:31 KJV
“3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. ”
Romans 8:3,4

We establish or uphold the law by putting our faith in the One who fulfilled all the righteous requirements of the law on our behalf and who offers us His perfect righteousness as a gift. (Romans 4:5-6; 5:15-18; 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9) Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. (Romans 10:4)

 

[mailmandan]

People confuse the Sabbath with "the Lord's Day" (meaning Resurrection Sunday).

It is not about changing the Sabbath, which I hold is a divine gift to us. It is about living as a new creation in God's Anointed.

You may be interested in this article - The Lord's Day - Revelation 1:10 ... The First Day!

 

[Wrangler]

I see no evidence in scripture that "the Lord's day" refers explicitly to Sunday, unless I'm missing something.

“The Lord's day" is not a term in Scripture but refers to resurrection Sunday.

Matthew 28:1
Early on Sunday morning, as the new day was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went out to visit the tomb

 

[PGS11]

I would say the world is way past observing the sabbath whether its Saturday or Sunday its no different than any other day in today's world.When I was young everything was closed on the sabbath and no one worked unless necessary you were not allowed to work or shop on Sunday.You either went to church or stayed home everything was closed.Jump to today what can't you do on the sabbath.

Business on Sunday can explain the large drop in attendance when I was young almost everyone went to church because there was nothing else to do.You knew everybody from church it was a large social situation.It was also though of as a family day because thats who you spent time with usually ending with a big Sunday Supper.

 

[Brakelite]

“The Lord's day" is not a term in Scripture but refers to resurrection Sunday.

Matthew 28:1
Early on Sunday morning, as the new day was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went out to visit the tomb

“I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, ”
Revelation 1:10

It is assumed that the above refers to Sunday. It is assumption only.

 

[Aunty Jane]

“The Lord's day" is not a term in Scripture but refers to resurrection Sunday.

Sorry Wrangler, but you are in error here…..

”The Lord’s day” is mentioned in Revelation and it was referring to the time period in the future when all the things mentioned in John’s Revelation would take place…..it was never a reference to “Sunday”….a day set aside by the Romans to worship their sun god.

In Revelation 1:9-11, John writes…..
”9 I John, your brother and a sharer with you in the tribulation and kingdom and endurance in association with Jesus, was on the island called Patʹmos for speaking about God and bearing witness concerning Jesus. 10 By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a strong voice like that of a trumpet, 11 saying: “What you see, write in a scroll and send it to the seven congregations: in Ephʹe·sus, in Smyrʹna, in Perʹga·mum, in Thy·a·tiʹra, in Sarʹdis, in Philadelphia, and in La·o·di·ceʹa.”

So this Revelation was from God, given to Jesus, who conveyed it to an angel, who then conveyed it to the apostle John towards the end of the first century. It was to show what would take place during “the Lord’s day”…the time when he would begin his reign as King….and as his first act as King, he would turn his attention to satan and his demons, evicting them from heaven and confining them to the earth where they would have one last chance to take mankind away from God. (Rev 12:7-12)

After the devil is permitted to do his best, an angel is seen with a chain in his hand, and he throws the devil and his hordes into the abyss, so that he cannot mislead mankind any longer….but at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ and his elect, they will be “let loose for a little while” (Rev 20:1-3).

Where will they be set free? Not in heaven because they have been evicted from heaven long ago, but “woe for the earth” would be interrupted whilst Jesus and his fellow heirs bring humankind back to sinless perfection to be tested one last time, at the end of the thousand years…..but satan will not be permitted to go as far as he has in this world….after the division of mankind again into two camps, the faithful will inherit everlasting life, whilst the unfaithful will perish….paradise will be restored with no unfaithful ones to spoilt things for everyone else.

Didn’t Jesus say that there are only two divisions among mankind….obedient ones, and disobedient ones….those who cannot obey God in all things will have no part with him. It is all he has asked of human beings from the beginning.

Matthew 28:1
Early on Sunday morning, as the new day was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went out to visit the tomb

And where does it call Sunday ”the Lord’s day”?
“The Lord’s day” is Jesus’ thousand year reign, which began when he was installed as King and “all authority” was “given him, in heaven and son earth”. (Rev 12:9-12; Matt 29:18)
This is the “day” that gives us back all that the devil and our first parents took away from us….which fits in with the Bible’s entire narrative……paradise lost…..to paradise regained. It’s a simple concept, lost in the myriad interpretations of the Bible’s message. Satan has taken most of the human race off on different tangents, all designed to create confusion….and hasn’t it worked well for him?
Who really can find the truth in all that confusion? Only God can lead a person to the only truth there is. (John 6:44; 65)

Why did Christ come? To “destroy the works of the devil.”

1 John 3:8…
”the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.”

We learn what those “works” were in Genesis…and we see how those “works” are destroyed in Revelation, so that God’s original purpose for the human race could be restored. (Rev 21:2-4)

What God starts…he finishes. (Isa 55:11)

 

[Brakelite]

Sorry Wrangler, but you are in error here…..

”The Lord’s day” is mentioned in Revelation and it was referring to the time period in the future when all the things mentioned in John’s Revelation would take place…..it was never a reference to “Sunday”….a day set aside by the Romans to worship their sun god.

In Revelation 1:9-11, John writes…..
”9 I John, your brother and a sharer with you in the tribulation and kingdom and endurance in association with Jesus, was on the island called Patʹmos for speaking about God and bearing witness concerning Jesus. 10 By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a strong voice like that of a trumpet, 11 saying: “What you see, write in a scroll and send it to the seven congregations: in Ephʹe·sus, in Smyrʹna, in Perʹga·mum, in Thy·a·tiʹra, in Sarʹdis, in Philadelphia, and in La·o·di·ceʹa.”

So this Revelation was from God, given to Jesus, who conveyed it to an angel, who then conveyed it to the apostle John towards the end of the first century. It was to show what would take place during “the Lord’s day”…the time when he would begin his reign as King….and as his first act as King, he would turn his attention to satan and his demons, evicting them from heaven and confining them to the earth where they would have one last chance to take mankind away from God. (Rev 12:7-12)

After the devil is permitted to do his best, an angel is seen with a chain in his hand, and he throws the devil and his hordes into the abyss, so that he cannot mislead mankind any longer….but at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ and his elect, they will be “let loose for a little while” (Rev 20:1-3).

Where will they be set free? Not in heaven because they have been evicted from heaven long ago, but “woe for the earth” would be interrupted whilst Jesus and his fellow heirs bring humankind back to sinless perfection to be tested one last time, at the end of the thousand years…..but satan will not be permitted to go as far as he has in this world….after the division of mankind again into two camps, the faithful will inherit everlasting life, whilst the unfaithful will perish….paradise will be restored with no unfaithful ones to spoilt things for everyone else.

Didn’t Jesus say that there are only two divisions among mankind….obedient ones, and disobedient ones….those who cannot obey God in all things will have no part with him. It is all he has asked of human beings from the beginning.

And where does it call Sunday ”the Lord’s day”?
“The Lord’s day” is Jesus’ thousand year reign, which began when he was installed as King and “all authority” was “given him, in heaven and son earth”. (Rev 12:9-12; Matt 29:18)
This is the “day” that gives us back all that the devil and our first parents took away from us….which fits in with the Bible’s entire narrative……paradise lost…..to paradise regained. It’s a simple concept, lost in the myriad interpretations of the Bible’s message. Satan has taken most of the human race off on different tangents, all designed to create confusion….and hasn’t it worked well for him?
Who really can find the truth in all that confusion? Only God can lead a person to the only truth there is. (John 6:44; 65)

Why did Christ come? To “destroy the works of the devil.”

1 John 3:8…
”the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.”

We learn what those “works” were in Genesis…and we see how those “works” are destroyed in Revelation, so that God’s original purpose for the human race could be restored. (Rev 21:2-4)

What God starts…he finishes. (Isa 55:11)

More unbiblical assumptions. Sounds great, but no substance.

 

[Brakelite]

Which law is that?

So, the gospel you teach is salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works? So, you agree with the statement made by that SDA in post #19?

Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

It's only by the grace of God that we have been justified and sanctified. (Acts 20:32; 1 Corinthians 6:11)

We establish or uphold the law by putting our faith in the One who fulfilled all the righteous requirements of the law on our behalf and who offers us His perfect righteousness as a gift. (Romans 4:5-6; 5:15-18; 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9) Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. (Romans 10:4)

Does God give His children power and strength to obey His commandments? Yes or no?

 

[Johann]

Does God give His children power and strength to obey His commandments? Yes or no?

Yes-

Philippians 2:13 (NKJV):
"For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."

This verse emphasizes that it is God who empowers believers both to desire and to perform what is pleasing to Him, which includes obeying His commandments.
Ezekiel 36:26-27 (NKJV):
"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them."

Here, God promises to transform His people by giving them a new heart and spirit, enabling them to follow His statutes and obey His commandments.
John 15:5 (NKJV):
"I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."

Jesus teaches that apart from Him, believers cannot achieve anything, including obedience. However, by abiding in Him, they receive the strength and ability to bear fruit, which includes obedience to His commands.
2 Peter 1:3 (NKJV):
"As His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue."

This verse indicates that God's divine power provides everything necessary for life and godliness, which includes the ability to obey His commandments.
Romans 8:13-14 (NKJV):
"For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God."

These verses show that the Holy Spirit enables believers to put to death the sinful deeds of the body and live in accordance with God's will.
These passages affirm that God's children are empowered by His Spirit and grace to live in obedience to His commandments.

 

[mailmandan]

Does God give His children power and strength to obey His commandments? Yes or no?

Have you flawlessly obeyed His commandments 100% of the time? Yes or no?

 

[Wrangler]

“The Lord's day" is not a term in Scripture but refers to resurrection Sunday.

Sorry Wrangler, but you are in error here…..

”The Lord’s day” is mentioned in Revelation

I stand corrected in that it is a term in Scripture.

and it was referring to the time period in the future

However, I stand by the observation that “The Lord's day" refers to resurrection Sunday and NOT a time period in the future.

it was never a reference to “Sunday”….a day set aside by the Romans to worship their sun god.

Plain wrong. Just because the Romans used a word to describe the first day of the week does not make it wrong for Christians to use that term. Let's use Scripture to reason together. I previously used one translation of Scripture that used that Roman term but the ESV, one of the most literal translations available, does not.

Matthew 28:1 (ESV)
28 Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb.

Now, anyone who is not a JW knows there is a word that means "the first day of the week" and that word is Sunday in our language.

More unbiblical assumptions. Sounds great, but no substance.

Yea, from The Lord's Day - Revelation 1:10 ... The First Day!

1. Early Christians from 30-300AD referred to Sunday as the Lord's day BECAUSE it was the day Jesus rose from the dead.
2. "Sunday" is only used in languages such as German, Dutch, and English, whereas Latin-based languages, such as Spanish, Italian, and French use a derivative of the Latin word "Dominica," literally "Lord's Day." So the very notion of the first day of the week having something to do with the sun depends on the language you speak. (Mario Derksen)

The established history of "The Lord's Day" referring to the day Christ was raised from the dead, the first day of the week (Sunday) is undeniable. Because JW's aversion to celebrating anniversaries of any kind, they are theologically bound to rationalize some other use of the term, such as a future state where the king reigns. This is confusing two phrases.

1. "The Lord's Day" - referring to resurrection Sunday as noted above.
2. "The Day of the Lord," referring to the end of history, a future state. What is the day of the Lord? | GotQuestions.org

I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day (the first day of the week), and I heard a voice behind me. It sounded like the blast of a trumpet.
Rev 9:10 (VOICE)