Catholic tradition, not the Bible, teaches a change to Sundaykeeping.

[Aunty Jane]

No. Using deconstruction, you are attempting to make Scripture inapplicable other than how you are twisting it. Don’t let anyone stand in judgment over you and dictate what ... festivals you should celebrate. Nuff said about Xmas, Easter, Birthdays, and God's word etc.

Now, that’s gold….it’s not you twisting scripture to make it say what you want it to…..?….you just can’t be told, can you mate…that’s the difference between Bible study and Bible reading….have you ever done a lick of Bible study in your whole life….? Your ignorance as to the meaning of what you quote is nothing short of pathetic…it condemns you as a mere reader, uneducated and unacquainted with the history behind the words.

It’s not deconstruction but accurately understanding what you read…to whom it was written, and why it was written….you appear to be absolutely clueless.…but ever ready to condemn someone who tries to correct your limited understanding…..your choice…believe whatever you like…it makes no difference to me.

All Scriptural arguments and verses are valid. Sad that you attempt to equate culture with race. Very desperate.

“Valid” as long as you agree with the the interpretation of the Scripture?….Culture has everything to do with ethnicity.

”Culture……the arts and other manifestations of human intellectual achievement regarded collectively.”
“the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society.”

Why on earth do you enjoy making a fool of yourself…..desperate? or just an unpleasant truth that doesn’t sit well with your view?
For goodness sake man, demonstrate some humility….and accept correction when you can see that you are plainly in the wrong.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I'm not former SDA @Wrangler. I'm just a guy who got used to arguing with them online on their pet topic, and for good reason (they believe it is or will be the Mark of the Beast). The history of Sunday worship is not super well documented, but that is true for almost any subject of ancient times, and this is also true of the tradition of the Jews attending synagogue on Saturday.


But what we know about Sunday worship is it comes from Apostolic times. The whole Sunday as the future day of worship is actually shown prophetically in a number of OT passages that have great symbolic meaning concerning the 8th day. So, to focus on the topic, I would counter the claim "The Catholic Church" changed the day of worship with these two internet articles. Thank You

Eighth Day, First Day — Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations

All of Creation is in need of redemption, as Scripture says: “. . . which God created to do.” ( Sefat Emet)

www.umjc.org

The Origins of Sunday Worship in the Early Church - GCI Archive

Visit gci.org and browse Grace Communion International's extensive library of articles on God, the Bible, faith, and the Christian Life.

archive.gci.org

 

[Brakelite]

I'm not former SDA @Wrangler. I'm just a guy who got used to arguing with them online on their pet topic, and for good reason (they believe it is or will be the Mark of the Beast). The history of Sunday worship is not super well documented, but that is true for almost any subject of ancient times, and this is also true of the tradition of the Jews attending synagogue on Saturday.


But what we know about Sunday worship is it comes from Apostolic times. The whole Sunday as the future day of worship is actually shown prophetically in a number of OT passages that have great symbolic meaning concerning the 8th day. So, to focus on the topic, I would counter the claim "The Catholic Church" changed the day of worship with these two internet articles. Thank You

Eighth Day, First Day — Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations

All of Creation is in need of redemption, as Scripture says: “. . . which God created to do.” ( Sefat Emet)

www.umjc.org

The Origins of Sunday Worship in the Early Church - GCI Archive

Visit gci.org and browse Grace Communion International's extensive library of articles on God, the Bible, faith, and the Christian Life.

archive.gci.org

I've often wondered why anyone with any intellectual understanding or biblical nous could embrace the carnal reasoning and human devising of an 8th day. It's desperate. And biblically unfounded. Philosophical mumbo-jumbo. Satanic in origin and a blatant attempt to justify disobedience. Yes. I'm a seventh day adventist, unapologetic and have no fear of your empty attempts to derail present truth.

 

[Hobie]

Let's see if you are brave enough to answer the following question honestly.
Does disobeying any of the ten commandments affect your salvation?

Many still think sin is acceptable in God's kingdom.

 

[Wrangler]

No. Using deconstruction, you are attempting to make Scripture inapplicable other than how you are twisting it. Don’t let anyone stand in judgment over you and dictate what ... festivals you should celebrate. Nuff said about Xmas, Easter, Birthdays, and God's word etc.

Now, that’s gold….it’s not you twisting scripture to make it say what you want it to…..?….you just can’t be told, can you mat

Evidently, neither can you be told. I quote Scripture explicitly without adding to it as you do and I am the one "twisting" it. That is gold!

Don’t let anyone stand in judgment over you and dictate what ... festivals you should celebrate. Nuff said about Xmas, Easter, Birthdays, and God's word etc.

 

[Wrangler]

It’s not deconstruction

It's totally deconstructionism. You have shown shown me that is what JW's are all about. Don’t let anyone stand in judgment over you and dictate what ... festivals you should celebrate is not clear enough to you.

 

[Wrangler]

For goodness sake man, demonstrate some humility….and accept correction when you can see that you are plainly in the wrong.

Projecting.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Evidently, neither can you be told. I quote Scripture explicitly without adding to it as you do and I am the one "twisting" it. That is gold!

Don’t let anyone stand in judgment over you and dictate what ... festivals you should celebrate. Nuff said about Xmas, Easter, Birthdays, and God's word etc.

If there is one thing I have learned in discussions with you Wrangler, it that you live up to your user name. It’s in your nature apparently, never to just acquiesce and accept correction, but to ‘wrangle’ or double down on every point to justify your own accepted practices. If that works for you, who can convince you otherwise, as the saying goes….”a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still”….

In giving you the background to what Paul wrote in the words you like to quote above, Paul was not contradicting himself in telling us NOT to fuse true worship with false worship….that is the ‘partnering’ we are to avoid, and we have explicit instructions to separate ourselves from what is spiritually “unclean” in God’s eyes. (2 Cor 6:14-18) Words taken out of context and with no regard to their true meaning and used to justify what God condemns, is self delusion. (2 Thess 2:9-12)

You share those celebrations with the world that satan rules (1 John 5:19; 2 Cor 4:3-4)….they enrich the commercial system which is now “like a roaring lion” seeking to get people into debt, by using pagan festivals dressed up as Christian events, (the originals of which were abhorrent to a God who does not change.) No sooner are the consumer goods for one celebration removed from the shelves, than we see preparation for the next. Can you not see this? “A fool and his money are soon parted”.
These events enrich the churches as well who receive more money on their two biggest celebrations, than in the rest of the year…..they are not about to kill that cash cow.

It's totally deconstructionism. You have shown shown me that is what JW's are all about. Don’t let anyone stand in judgment over you and dictate what ... festivals you should celebrate is not clear enough to you.

JW’s are all about truth….the whole truth….and nothing but the truth. When people accept lies as truth, the real truth is often rejected outright because it means a change in attitude…a change in thinking….and in turn, a change in what is practiced. When you love what Jehovah hates, it takes a stronger love for God to break away and “separate” ourselves from touching what is “unclean” to God.

Once you know the truth, whether you accept it or not, you can never plead ignorance.

Projecting.

There you go again…..was I projecting or are you? Or was I simply stating a familiar response in you to anything that might be deemed to be a correction? If we cannot be corrected by the word of God, then all hope is lost…..God’s word is meant to guide, direct AND correct us…..but only if we stick to what it says.

Think back to the nation of Israel who frequently made excursions into false religious practices and incurred God’s anger and punishment…..he will not accept anything less than what his word commands us to do….and what it commands us NOT to do. He expects our obedience in all things. (even in the little things)
Those who think they know better, form the disunited rabble that is Christendom. Their members all follow along like sheep to the slaughter promoting these occasions as if they are not offensive to the one whose worship they have polluted with every borrowed celebration, and every false doctrine.

Did you never wonder why every celebration you share with the world is an adopted pagan event, renamed and given a meaning that it never had. God was there to witness the originals. He hated them then…he still hates them now.…what is it that makes you think otherwise?

 

[Wrangler]

double down on every point to justify your own accepted practices.

NOT to fuse true worship with false worship….that is the ‘partnering’ we are to avoid

Projecting again!

He hated them then…he still hates them now.…what is it that makes you think otherwise?

Already answered in post #78. 1 Corinthians 9:22. You just don't accept correction. So, you do laps on ground already covered. Claiming it is a form of worship is a Strawman, repeatedly and always rejected for the false Gospel it is!

This issue of cultural assimilation and integration is why Christendom is so much more successful in meeting the masses compared to JW. JW are in denial of the human condition, which includes culture. You advocate a false dilemma, Jesus or one's culture. Giving up cultural traditions and festivals is not a requirement for salvation. You're just too indoctrination in your deconstructionist view to realize it. Consequently, you live and write joylessly, which is not of the Spirit.

 

[Hobie]

I've often wondered why anyone with any intellectual understanding or biblical nous could embrace the carnal reasoning and human devising of an 8th day. It's desperate. And biblically unfounded. Philosophical mumbo-jumbo. Satanic in origin and a blatant attempt to justify disobedience. Yes. I'm a seventh day adventist, unapologetic and have no fear of your empty attempts to derail present truth.

It was a attempt by Clement to change the Sabbath in the Alexandrian church in tandem with Rome doing it using the Easter festival. Both tried to tie it in to the resurrection of Christ, but it was unscriptural to say nothing about the false tradition they tried to foist on the people, which of course has fooled many..

The Theological Significance of the Eighth Day - Feeding on Christ

In recent decades, the “eighth day” has been taken up by American pop-culture as something of a rhetorical literary device. When I was in high school there was a somewhat annoyingly catchy song about God making sweat tea on the eighth day. Then there was the Superbowl commercial about how God...

feedingonchrist.org

 

[mailmandan]

It was a attempt by Clement to change the Sabbath in the Alexandrian church in tandem with Rome doing it using the Easter festival. Both tried to tie it in to the resurrection of Christ, but it was unscriptural to say nothing about the false tradition they tried to foist on the people, which of course has fooled many..

The Theological Significance of the Eighth Day - Feeding on Christ

In recent decades, the “eighth day” has been taken up by American pop-culture as something of a rhetorical literary device. When I was in high school there was a somewhat annoyingly catchy song about God making sweat tea on the eighth day. Then there was the Superbowl commercial about how God...

feedingonchrist.org

Speaking of being fooled.

Seventh-day Adventists teach that the near the end of time the "mark of the best" of Revelation 14 will be placed upon those who worship on Sunday instead of Saturday.

Mark of the Beast

Bible Truth Versus SDA Doctrine - Mark of the Beast

www.nonsda.org

 

[uncle silas]

SDA members often quote the following:



Sin is the transgression of the law 1John3:4

Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20

Any applicable ‘’law’’ is now in the believers hearts and minds. What is in your mind you in your mind must know. The law in your heart MUST bring heartfelt consciousness of sin when it is ‘’wilfully’’ ignored. This is true according to core scriptural truths.

So, if a person has no consciousness of sin at failing to observe a set Saturday Sabbath, there are only two possibilities. Either that law as written has not been written in the mind and placed on the hearts of believers, or, if it has, no one could be a Christian unless they had heartfelt conviction of sin at failing to observe a set Saturday Sabbath.

Interestingly, sda members accept people as Christians who have no consciousness of sin at failing to observe a set Saturday sabbath. Im afraid that shows a lack of understanding of the outworking of the core foundation upon which the NC stands

 

[Johann]

Interestingly, sda members accept people as Christians who have no consciousness of sin at failing to observe a set Saturday sabbath. Im afraid that shows a lack of understanding of the outworking of the core foundation upon which the NC stands

I do agree with you @uncle silas- have you considered how many times "the nomos" is used by Paul?

In the letters of Paul, the concept of "law" is indeed discussed in various ways, and there are multiple references to different kinds of laws or principles. Here's an overview of the key laws or principles mentioned in Paul's epistles:

1. The Law of Sin and Death
Romans 8:2:
"For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death." (ESV)

This "law" refers to the principle that sin leads to death, but through Christ, believers are liberated from this principle.

2. The Law of the Spirit of Life
Romans 8:2:
"For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death." (ESV)

This is the principle of life and freedom in the Spirit, contrasting with the law of sin and death.

3. The Law of Christ
Galatians 6:2:
"Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ." (ESV)

This "law" represents the command to love and support one another, reflecting Christ’s teachings and example.

4. The Law of God
Romans 7:22:
"For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being," (ESV)

This refers to the moral law of God, which Paul acknowledges as good and desirable, even though he struggles with sin.

5. The Law of Moses
Galatians 3:10:
"For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, 'Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.'" (ESV)

This refers to the Old Testament law given to Moses, which Paul discusses in terms of its role in the history of salvation and its limitations.

6. The Law of Liberty
James 1:25 (Though not a Pauline epistle, it's often discussed in this context):
"But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing." (ESV)
While not written by Paul, this concept is related to Paul's teaching about the freedom believers have in Christ, which can be seen as a principle of living out God’s commands in a liberated manner.

7. The Law of the Flesh
Galatians 5:19-21:
"Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." (ESV)
This is more a description of sinful behaviors that arise from living according to the flesh, contrasting with the fruit of the Spirit.

Paul's letters address various concepts of "law" in different contexts, often contrasting the law of sin and death with the law of the Spirit of life, discussing the law of Christ versus the law of Moses, and reflecting on principles of moral living. Each "law" or principle serves a specific purpose in his theological arguments and pastoral advice.

Just wonder if you have taken note of this in your studies, not being facetious here.
Shalom.
J.

 

[uncle silas]

I do agree with you @uncle silas- have you considered how many times "the nomos" is used by Paul?

In the letters of Paul, the concept of "law" is indeed discussed in various ways, and there are multiple references to different kinds of laws or principles. Here's an overview of the key laws or principles mentioned in Paul's epistles:

1. The Law of Sin and Death
Romans 8:2:
"For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death." (ESV)

This "law" refers to the principle that sin leads to death, but through Christ, believers are liberated from this principle.

2. The Law of the Spirit of Life
Romans 8:2:
"For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death." (ESV)

This is the principle of life and freedom in the Spirit, contrasting with the law of sin and death.

3. The Law of Christ
Galatians 6:2:
"Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ." (ESV)

This "law" represents the command to love and support one another, reflecting Christ’s teachings and example.

4. The Law of God
Romans 7:22:
"For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being," (ESV)

This refers to the moral law of God, which Paul acknowledges as good and desirable, even though he struggles with sin.

5. The Law of Moses
Galatians 3:10:
"For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, 'Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.'" (ESV)

This refers to the Old Testament law given to Moses, which Paul discusses in terms of its role in the history of salvation and its limitations.

6. The Law of Liberty
James 1:25 (Though not a Pauline epistle, it's often discussed in this context):
"But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing." (ESV)
While not written by Paul, this concept is related to Paul's teaching about the freedom believers have in Christ, which can be seen as a principle of living out God’s commands in a liberated manner.

7. The Law of the Flesh
Galatians 5:19-21:
"Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." (ESV)
This is more a description of sinful behaviors that arise from living according to the flesh, contrasting with the fruit of the Spirit.

Paul's letters address various concepts of "law" in different contexts, often contrasting the law of sin and death with the law of the Spirit of life, discussing the law of Christ versus the law of Moses, and reflecting on principles of moral living. Each "law" or principle serves a specific purpose in his theological arguments and pastoral advice.

Just wonder if you have taken note of this in your studies, not being facetious here.
Shalom.
J.

Im not a theologian, but I will briefly go over some of what you mentioned:



The law of sin and death

Its good to always remember, to Paul the power of sin was the law 1Cor15:56

When the law was given sin increased Rom5:20

The legally binding law with the power to condemn.

Sin took occasion of one of the TC to arouse all manner of concupiscence in Saul(Rom7:7&8)



Note the wording of the TC. Thou shalt NOT. No wiggle room for error, perfectly obey them or stand guilty before them. Everyone stands guilty before that letter



The law of the Spirit of life. To me, look to Christ, trust him to change you by the power of the Spirit, don’t look to the ‘’law’’. The more you do that, the more the fruits of the Spirit will grow in your life(Gal5:22) Against that fruit there is no law(verse23) For that fruit is the embodiment of how God wants you to live your life.



You summed up the law of Christ perfectly with Gal6:2

Christ’s commands are primarily examples of loving others, and God, hence the verse

I agree, Rom7:22 refers to the moral law. How do we know? The legalistic law could faultlessly be obeyed, even by the worst of sinners(Phil3:6) it was always the moral law that could not be faultlessly obeyed.



Hence Gal3:10 is written because of the moral law. You would not have to be under a curse concerning the legalistic side of the law, for there is no curse in law you can faultlessly obey. Although the law came as one whole law



Just a brief response to what you wrote.

 

[Johann]

Im not a theologian, but I will briefly go over some of what you mentioned:

Neither am I @uncle silas but I love your style, shooting straight from the hip and not falling for the flowery speech of some.
Welcome to this Forum and shalom to you and family.
J.

 

[Brakelite]

Tell me guys. I agree with you regarding the moral law. The moral law covers our relationships with others. Commandments 5-10. But we are also commanded to love God. The first 4 commandments. Worship God only. No idols or graven images. No taking the name of the Lord in vain. No blasphemy. Are these what one would call moral? Or are these a matter of God's authority and His rightful position as Creator to expect the honour due Him?
“8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. ”
Exodus 20:8-11

Perhaps it could be argued that the Sabbath isn't "moral" like others. But I would argue that when we talk about righteousness and the law and love and about what is written on our heartsand our minds, we are really talking about Christ, the Spirit of Christ and the Father abiding in us. "Christ in us, the hope of glory", the mystery of godliness. All are one and the same. All are inextricably linked. The law... all of it... is God's character as expressed through the righteousness of Christ and granted us as a most precious gift.

Whether moral or not, God has a right to be obeyed. And without any explicit command to the contrary, the 4th commandment must still surely stand.