Catholic Preist Sings Song About Lucifer

[Big Boy Johnson]

Put down your SDA manure for a while and read some FACTS . . .

Not a fan of SDA.... but catholics should put down their manure and accept God's Word!

 

[BreadOfLife]

DB, while you've shown nothing, I've shown you that Rome is the "7 hilled city" upon which the Whore of Babylon sits and she "reigneth over the kings of the Earth".

Now, listen to me very carefully...

What city was reigning over the kings of the Earth circa 95 A.D. when John wrote that? Jerusalem which was desolate and in ruins...or Rome ?

Once again – Jerusalem ALSO sits on 7 HILLS

- Jerusalem is called the “great city” in Scripture (Rev. 11:8).

- Jerusalem is where the “Lord was crucified” (Rev. 11:8).

- Jerusalem was drunk on the blood of God’s holy people (prophets and early Church) (Rev 17:6)

- Jerusalem is the FAITHFUL CITY HAS BECOME A WHORE, Isaiah 1:21

Game.
Set.
MATCH.

What post did I say the high priest and lower priests "served in the same function"? You obviously misread or misunderstood, as you routinely do, papist friend.

I said is they're part of the same Levitical priesthood, so stop with this unBiblical, false dichotomy made to establish the "legitimacy of the papal priesthood".

The ministerial Priests and the High Priests were NOT on the same level.
That has been my contention all along.

Since you blindly-reject the NT Ministerial Priesthood , you have turned this into a silly argument.

The church is a "nation of priests" and Christ is our "High Priest". No Scripture invests the church with the power to either absolve or condemn anyone, so "binding/loosing" will never amount to anything more than the maximum discipline of erring members which is disfellowship, no matter how much you or your death cult want it to be "hand over heretics to the State for execution".

WRONG.

In John 20:21-23, Jesus (who is God) breathes on the Apostles as he is giving them this power:
(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

The fact that Jesus breathed on the Apostles when entrusted them with this ministry is highly significant because he doesn’t do this anywhere else in the New Testament. In fact, there are only TWO times in ALL of Scripture where God breathes on man:
- The first is when he breathed life into Adam.
- The second is here in John’s Gospel when he is giving them the power to forgive or retain sins.

Paul makes no small case for this ministry of reconciliation:
2 Cor. 5:18-20:
“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

In 2 Cor. 2:10, he states, “Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for you in the presence of Christ.”

In the Greek, the word “presence” in this phrase is Prosopone, which means Person. In the PERSON of Christ is a more correct translation. Paul was indicating that they were forgiving sins in the PERSON of Christ, which is translated into Latin as In Persona Christi.

It's quite natural that the author of the Gospel of the Strawman would routinely grasp at them.

ALL Christians have a "priestly duty" - it's called "The Great Commission" for preaching the Gospel and winning people to Christ.

WRONG.

Paul outlines this in in his 1st Letter to the Corinthians:
1 Cor. 12:27:31
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

We are NOT all teachers – NOR did Jesus give the power to forgive sins or hold them bound to the CROWDS. This Authority was given to the leaders of His Church.

God is not the author of confusion, papal or otherwise, so we should expect there would be "chiefs and indians" regarding church admin...but "ecclesiastical hierarchy"?

Never.

That's why Protestant leaders are allowed to serve "over us" at the pleasure of us the way Christ, our "Chief Shepherd", intended.

In John 21 - Jesus told Peter to:
“Feed my lambs”
“Tend my sheep”
“Feed my sheep:”

That is the job of a SHEPHERD.
Jesus is the Shepherd.
Peter is His vicar – His chief earthly representative.

Does not catholicism employ pagan rituals and practices that link together from the pages of archeology? I don't need Hislop's book to see that the sun worship symbols that are so plentiful in your faith, along with pagan beliefs such as that man is immortal, divine, can be saved by works, etc., point to only one conclusion - the correct conclusion of the Protestant Reformation.

You have been spoon-fed WAAAYYYY too much SDA excrement.

The Catholic Church doesn’t teach that we are saved by our works.
Where did you get THAT nonsense??

The Catholic Church doesn’t teach that humans are immortal. We have an immortal soul, which is what the Bible teaches. We are not “divine” – but we WILL share in Christ’s divine nature (1 Pet. 3-4).

 

[Illuminator]

Not a fan of SDA.... but catholics should put down their manure and accept God's Word!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Not a fan of SDA.... but catholics should put down their manure and accept God's Word!

Ummmm, we shared it with the WORLD.
Time for a History Lesson . . .

The Synod of Rome (382) is where the canon was first formally identified – ALL 73 (not 66) Books.
- 11 years after that, it was confirmed at the Synod of Hippo (393).

- 4 years later, at the Council (or Synod) of Carthage (397), it was yet again confirmed. The bishops wrote at the end of their document, "But let Church beyond sea (Rome) be consulted about confirming this canon". There were 44 bishops, including St. Augustine who signed the document.

- 7 years later, in 405, in a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse, he reiterated the canon.

- 14 years after that, at the 2nd Council (Synod) of Carthage (419) the canon was again formally confirmed.

The Canon of Scripture was officially closed at the Council of Trent in the 16th century because of the perversions happening within Protestantism and the random editing and deleting of books from the Canon.

SO – if it wasn’t for the Catholic Church – YOU wouldn’t even HAVE a Bible, son.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Nobody carers about "10 Things Catholics Are Sick Of Hearing"

 

[Mink57]

Nobody carers about "10 Things Catholics Are Sick Of Hearing"

Does anybody care about the "10 things that non-Catholic Christians are saying about Catholics?"

BT. DT. It's boring.

Can't you guys think of something new to BASH us about? *Yawn*

 

[Philip James]

That is necromancy

umm no it is not..

necromancy is consulting the dead.

Our brothers and sisters who have gone before us are very much alive!

You keep trying to assert that we believe in some other Jesus, but it appears you are the one who has trouble believing Jesus' words:

"I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live,

and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die."

Pax et Bonum

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

necromancy is consulting the dead.

Our brothers and sisters who have gone before us are very much alive!

They are separated from this world that you live in... so they are in fact physically dead.

The Lord does not instruct or provide permission to anybody to consult those separated from this world, so this is sin before the Lord... see the next post.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Definition of NECROMANCY
conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events

Definition of SORCERY
the use of power gained from the assistance or control of evil spirits especially for divining

Definition of DIVINATION
1 - the art or practice that seeks to foresee or foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge usually by the interpretation of omens or by the aid of supernatural powers
2 - unusual insight : intuitive perception (apart from information directly the Holy Spirit)

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance (debate), emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Leviticus 19:31 ESV
“Do not turn to mediums or necromancers; do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the Lord your God.

Isaiah 8:19 ESV
And when they say to you, “Inquire of the mediums and the necromancers who chirp and mutter,” should not a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living?

Leviticus 20:6 ESV
“If a person turns to mediums and necromancers, whoring after them, I will set my face against that person and will cut him off from among his people.

Deuteronomy 18:10 ESV
There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer

Revelation 16:14 ESV
For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 ESV
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

Psalm 115:17 ESV
The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence.

Deuteronomy 18:9-14 ESV
When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you. You shall be blameless before the Lord your God, ...

Exodus 22:18 ESV
You shall not permit a sorceress to live. (under the New Covenant God does not direct them to die physically, but they are cut off from the Life of God…meaning God cannot have a relationship with someone who is in agreement with devils until they repent and renounce association with evil spirits and embrace God's Grace thru Jesus Christ)

Revelation 21:8 ESV
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

1 John 4:1 ESV
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Hebrews 5:14 ESV
But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

1 Timothy 4:1 ESV
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons

Ephesians 4:30 ESV
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Corinthians 11:14 ESV
And no wonder, for even satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Warnings against mourning for the dead

Leviticus 19:28
Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 21:1
And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto the priests the sons of Aaron, and say unto them, There shall none be defiled for the dead among his people:

Deuteronomy 14:1
Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.

Deuteronomy 26:14
I have not eaten thereof in my mourning, neither have I taken away ought thereof for any unclean use, nor given ought thereof for the dead: but I have hearkened to the voice of the LORD my God, and have done according to all that thou hast commanded me.

Jeremiah 16:7
Neither shall men tear themselves for them in mourning, to comfort them for the dead; neither shall men give them the cup of consolation to drink for their father or for their mother.

Jeremiah 22:10
Weep ye not for the dead, neither bemoan him: but weep sore for him that goeth away: for he shall return no more, nor see his native country.

Ezekiel 24:17
Forbear to cry, make no mourning for the dead

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Can't you guys think of something new to BASH us about? *Yawn*

I know right! The catholics are so mistreated.... it's just racists to not bow down and embrace catholic theology and throw God's Word in the trash!

 

[Mink57]

They are separated from this world that you live in... so they are in fact physically dead.

The Lord does not instruct or provide permission to anybody to consult those separated from this world, so this is sin before the Lord... see the next post.

Sooooo...JESUS was "sinning" when he spoke to Moses and Elijah... when BOTH had clearly been dead?

 

[Philip James]

Definition of NECROMANCY
conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events

Again, we don't do this. And neither are our brothers and sisters dead. you can try and parse words all you like , but I believe Jesus, why don't you?

"I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live,

and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die."

Pax et Bonum

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

JESUS was "sinning" when he spoke to Moses and Elijah... when BOTH had clearly been dead?

You're not Jesus . . . . He's God and has the right to talk to anyone He wants since He's omniscience

There are NO instructions from the Lord in His Word directing His people to contact those that have passed from this world for any reason.

I believe Jesus, why don't you?

Please so me where Jesus and His Apostles said to try and talk to those that have passed from this life who are physically dead.

 

[Illuminator]

You're not Jesus . . . . He's God and has the right to talk to anyone He wants since He's omniscience

There are NO instructions from the Lord in His Word directing His people to contact those that have passed from this world for any reason.




Please so me where Jesus and His Apostles said to try and talk to those that have passed from this life who are physically dead.

Luke 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’

Abraham says no (16:25-26), just as God will say no to a prayer not according to His will. He asks him again, begging (16:27-28). Abraham refuses again, saying (16:29): “They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’” He asks a third time (16:30), and Abraham refuses again, reiterating the reason why (16:31).

How this supposedly does not support the principle of saints interceding and being able to intercede is a mystery to me. If we were not supposed to ask saints to pray for us, I think this story would be almost the very last way to make that supposed point. Abraham would simply have said, “you shouldn’t be asking me for anything; ask God!” In the same way, analogously, angels refuse worship when it is offered, because only God can be worshiped.

If the true theology is that Abraham cannot be asked an intercessory request, then Abraham would have noted this and refused to even hear it. But instead he heard the request and said no. Jesus couldn’t possibly have taught a false principle.

Game, set, match, right in the Bible, from Jesus Himself. But those who place man-made traditions about Holy Scripture will always think they can find a way to weasel their way out of plain biblical teaching. It’s sad.

I won’t change your mind, not because I don’t have a good biblical argument, but rather, because you place unbiblical traditions above the Bible itself. You haven’t changed my mind because you are not grappling with my biblical arguments.

Now you’re simply evading or repeating the same boilerplate talking points. So we’re done. You have conceded the argument based on a lack of rational and relevant counter-arguments. And it’s obvious that anti-Catholicism is driving your stubbornness and refusal to accept clear biblical teaching from Our Lord Jesus.

If you’re wondering why I became a Catholic, there is no mystery there. I explain why in great detail in many articles here:

Conversion and Converts (Catholic)

Common argument:
Sorry; let’s look at the situation with the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man is in hell, so he is dead. Lazarus is in the bosom of Abraham in heaven so, Lazarus is also dead.

“Abraham’s bosom” (Luke 16:22, is not heaven, but also Hades (Sheol in Hebrew). This was before Jesus’ redemptive death on the cross, so the Old Testament saints were not yet in heaven.

Okay, now we see the situation they are both in. It is the dead speaking to the dead, not a living on earth person praying to a dead person for intercession. Your theory is non-existent.

The passage has to do with two major prior premises in the larger debate of intercession of the saints:

1) Is it proper to “pray” to anyone but God?,

and

2) is it proper to ask anyone but God to not only pray for, but fulfill (i.e., have the power and ability to bring about) an intercessory request?

These are the sorts of questions concerning which the Luke 16 passage is relevant. Protestantism utterly rejects #1 and #2 above; yet Luke 16 (from Jesus) clearly teaches them. Hence lies the dilemma. It matters not if both men are dead; the rich man still can’t do what he did, according to Protestant categories of thought and theology.

Whether Dives [the “rich man”] was dead or not is irrelevant, since standard Protestant theology holds that no one can make such a request to anyone but God. He’s asking Abraham to send Lazarus to him, and then to his brothers, to prevent them from going to hell. That is very much prayer: asking for supernatural aid from those who have left the earthly life and attained sainthood and perfection, with God. . . .

Jesus told this story, and in the story is a guy praying to a dead man, to request things that the dead man appears to be able to fulfill by his own powers. That is quite sufficient to prove the point. . . .

It remains true that Protestant theology, generally speaking, forbids asking a dead man to intercede (thus, a dead man asking this is part of the larger category that remains forbidden in that theology), and makes prayer altogether a matter only between man and God . . .

In fact, God is never mentioned in the entire story (!!!) . . .

So why did Jesus teach in this fashion? Why did He teach that Dives was asking Abraham to do things that Protestant theology would hold that only God can do? And why is the whole story about him asking Abraham for requests, rather than going directly to God and asking Him: which would seem to be required by [Protestant] theology? . . .

This just isn’t how it’s supposed to be, from a Protestant perspective. All the emphases are wrong, and there are serous theological errors, committed by Jesus Himself (i.e., from the erroneous Protestant perspective).

Moreover, there is a sense in the Bible in which it is irrelevant whether a human being is dead or not. They are still conscious and alive (Mt 22:32) and bound to God’s laws. So, for example:

Philippians 2:10-11 . . . at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, [11] and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Revelation 5:3 And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it,
Revelation 5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, “To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for ever and ever!”

The Catholic Church clearly condemns necromancy:

Divination and magic

2115 God can reveal the future to his prophets or to other saints. Still, a sound Christian attitude consists in putting oneself confidently into the hands of Providence for whatever concerns the future, and giving up all unhealthy curiosity about it. Improvidence, however, can constitute a lack of responsibility.

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future.48 Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 3 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 1 ARTICLE 1

Sadly, Big Boy is neck deep in anti-Catholic nonsense, he cannot be reasoned with.

 

[Cassandra]

Sooooo...JESUS was "sinning" when he spoke to Moses and Elijah... when BOTH had clearly been dead?

God resurrected Moses, and Elijah was translated that he should not see death.

Even if what the saints were alive, they cannot hear you, only God can.


So it would go like this: you pray to a saint, God hears it and tells the saint you want him to pray to God for you. He then prays to God, and God says"I already know."

 

[Illuminator]

Whether Dives [the “rich man”] was dead or not is irrelevant, since standard Protestant theology holds that no one can make such a request to anyone but God. He’s asking Abraham to send Lazarus to him, and then to his brothers, to prevent them from going to hell. That is very much prayer: asking for supernatural aid from those who have left the earthly life and attained sainthood and perfection, with God. . . .

Jesus told this story, and in the story is a guy praying to a dead man, to request things that the dead man appears to be able to fulfill by his own powers. That is quite sufficient to prove the point. . . .

It remains true that Protestant theology, generally speaking, forbids asking a dead man to intercede (thus, a dead man asking this is part of the larger category that remains forbidden in that theology), and makes prayer altogether a matter only between man and God . . .

In fact, God is never mentioned in the entire story (!!!) . . .

So why did Jesus teach in this fashion? Why did He teach that Dives was asking Abraham to do things that Protestant theology would hold that only God can do? And why is the whole story about him asking Abraham for requests, rather than going directly to God and asking Him: which would seem to be required by [Protestant] theology? . . .

The only answers to these questions Big Boy offers is childish retorts.

This just isn’t how it’s supposed to be, from Big Boy's perspective. All the emphases are wrong, and there are serous theological errors, committed by Jesus Himself (i.e., from the erroneous Protestant perspective).

Moreover, there is a sense in the Bible in which it is irrelevant whether a human being is dead or not. They are still conscious and alive (Mt 22:32) and bound to God’s laws. So, for example:

Philippians 2:10-11 . . . at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, [11] and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Revelation 5:3 And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it,
Revelation 5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, “To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for ever and ever!”

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Sadly, Big Boy is neck deep in anti-Catholic nonsense, he cannot be reasoned with.

Uh huh... enjoy all the catholic scripture twisting to your heart's content!

In the end we''ll see who ends up where!

 

[Illuminator]

God resurrected Moses, and Elijah was translated that he should not see death.

Even if what the saints were alive, they cannot hear you, only God can.

1) Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (Joseph H. Thayer, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 4th ed., 1977; orig. 1901, 392) defines it — as used in this verse — as follows: “One who is a spectator of anything, e.g. of a contest, Heb 12:1.”

[Strong’s word #3144; similar usages cited by Thayer: Lk 24:48; Acts 1:8; 1:22; 2:32; 3:15; 5:32; 10:39; 13:31; 26:16; 1 Pet 5:1 – the sense is indisputable in these other verses]

2) Word Studies in the New Testament (Marvin R. Vincent, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1980; orig. 1887; vol. 4, 536), another standard Protestant language source, comments on this verse as follows:

‘Witnesses’ does not mean spectators, but those who have borne witness to the truth, as those enumerated in chapter 11. Yet the idea of spectators is implied, and is really the principal idea. The writer’s picture is that of an arena in which the Christians whom he addresses are contending in a race, while the vast host of the heroes of faith who, after having borne witness to the truth, have entered into their heavenly rest, watches the contest from the encircling tiers of the arena, compassing and overhanging it like a cloud, filled with lively interest and sympathy, and lending heavenly aid.

3) Word Pictures in the New Testament (A. T. Robertson [Baptist], Nashville, Tennessee: Broadman Press, 1932, vol. 5, 432), comments:

‘Cloud of witnesses’ (nephos marturon . . . The metaphor refers to the great amphitheatre with the arena for the runners and the tiers upon tiers of seats rising up like a cloud. The martures here are not mere spectators (theatai), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience (11:2,4-5, 33, 39) to God’s fulfilling promises as shown in chapter 11.

[Note that the notion of “spectators” is the primary metaphor — the arena — so that both meanings: that of spectators and witnesses in the sense of example are present. Neither can be ruled out]

4) Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, (ed. Gerhard Kittel & Gerhard Friedrich; tr. and abridged by Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1985; 567), an impeccable and widely-used linguistic (non-Catholic) source, states: “In Heb. 12:1 the witnesses watching the race seem to be confessing witnesses (cf. 11:2), but this does not exclude the element of factual witness.”

So our four non-Catholic language references all confirm that the element of “spectatorship,” which lends itself to the Catholic notion of communion of saints, where saints in heaven are aware of, and observe events on earth, is present in Hebrews 12:1, and cannot be ruled out by any means, on the basis of a doctrinal bias.

So it would go like this: you pray to a saint, God hears it and tells the saint you want him to pray to God for you. He then prays to God, and God says"I already know."

It doesn't work that way. Saints in heaven deliver prayers to God, it is up to God whether or not to grant a petition, not the saint.

 

[Philip James]

God resurrected Moses, and Elijah was translated that he should not see death.

Hello Cassandra. Do you think Moses was resurrected before Jesus' resurrection?

Pax et Bonum

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Jesus told this story, and in the story is a guy praying to a dead man, to request things that the dead man appears to be able to fulfill by his own powers. That is quite sufficient to prove the point. . . .

Both people in the story were physically dead (no longer present on Club Earth) one in hell, the other in Abraham's bosom in the after life. So, nobody was praying to a dead man.

They could see each other across the gulf between paradise (Lazurus was in the temporary protected area in hell for old testament saints) and hell which is where the rich man was... so they were simply speaking across this gulf as both were physically dead (bodies in the ground on earth) and were in their spiritual body... one in paradise and the other being tormented in hell.

standard Protestant theology holds that no one can make such a request to anyone but God.

And the catholics don't know the Lord which is why they don't go to Him in prayer... they off talking to others which is a complete waste of time cause they aren't God and they can't do anything bout yo situation anyhow.

And the catholics don't know the Lord is ALL powerful and He is more than enough because if they actually knew the Lord and knew how powerful He is... they won't be talking to others trying to get them to get in a good word for them... they'd go directly to the Father in Jesus Name, which is what Jesus said to do:

John 16:23
And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

So keep on ignoring the Lord's instructions and see where you end up!

Oh and by the way... mary is not co-redeemer with Jesus... the Lord is not sharing His glory with her and He does not take orders from her at all. She is no better in the eyes of the Lord than any other believers.

Matthew 12:50
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

The Lord never said to pray to or thru mary in His Word... and doing so is not doing God's will.

It doesn't work that way. Saints in heaven deliver prayers to God, it is up to God whether or not to grant a petition, not the saint.

That's hilarious... scripture does not teach this at all.

We are supposed to be in a direct relationship with the Lord... each of us on a personal level, which is why Jesus said.... Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever YOU shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. (John 16:23)

Jesus did not teach His followers to try and contact those that have gone on to the after life and ask them if they could go ask God something in our behalf.

This is just another doctrine of demons being delivered to mankind thru the catholics.


.