And you know, you just know, regardless of what they say, that is a great source of pride for them, something that they are obviously quite ready to shout from the hill tops. Though they would claim that is not really boasting.
CALVINISM: The height of Spiritual depravity
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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Of course, all spiritual hymns are written by men~yet, they are called spiritual for reason by godly minds, because they glorify God and a great comfort to spiritual minded children of God, a fruit of the Spirit of God you seem to be void of.
Rella, have you ever read 1st Peter 1:2 and compare that with other scriptures?
To be short, asked yourself what was in God's foreknowledge? We know that God did not forsee man's good works, or, his willingness to love and serve God after the fall (or even before the fall, he knew both angels and flesh and blood would sin when left to themselves, for God alone is immutable and cannot be tempted to evil) so many scriptures refutes that false theory.
So, what did God in his infinite knowledge understand about both angels and man? He knew that "unless" he had an election by grace alone no angels or man would ever come to the knowledge of the truth to love and serve him! So, God had a perfect way to be just yet at the same time a justifier of sinners, (though the elect angels never sin, so they cannot appreciate the love of God to the same degree that we can in glory) through Jesus Christ is perfect obedience Son, who gave his life for God's elect.
God knowing this, was not under obligation to save any, much less, thousand of millions~Genesis 24:60.
God created Adam upright, placed him in a beautiful perfect world with one little commandment to obey with a beautiful wife to enjoy, yet he sinned the very hour God left them to themselves! If there's blame to be placed put it where it belongs at the feet of our first parents!
Are you, or anyone else (I'm certainly not going to do so) tell God that he is not fair in showing grace to all of Adam's race? Are you thinking why does God yet find fault with me, since it was Adam that sin?
We all stood in Adam in his glorious state in which God created him without a sinful natures keeping him from obeying! Besides, God's way of creating, and allowing Adam to be our representative before him was the absolute perfect opportunity for all to earn eternal life through the first Adam IF life could have been earned by flesh and blood by creation of man.
But eternal life was earned by the second Adam sent to redeemed God's elect who was God's only begotten Son~he secured eternal life by being made a surety for God's elect, being the head of an elect body whose members where chosen in him before the foundation of the world. Enough said for now.
Before Augustine, there was Paul and the other apostles~but the greatest of all Jesus Christ, clearly taught this same truth. John 15:16; Matthew 16:17; other such scriptures as:
I agree Calvin never invented unconditional election by pure grace, was the second (behind Luther) most powerful vocal voice during the reformation of the 1500's plus as you related to ~ systematically organized the doctrines of the Christian Religion at that time in his Institutes of the Christian religion, written at a young age of 27!
Absolutely everything. There is nothing that God does not know. He is omniscient. His foreknowledge is His omniscience of the future. It is the false construct of Total Depravity, not God, that says that neither angels nor man can love God without first being "chosen".
That is not from God. That is from Calvinism (or Augustinianism.)
Calvin says, And we know that for those who are predestined all things work together for good....
But God says, And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good ....(Rom 8:28)
So what did God foreknow? God foreknew all those who would love Him. It is "....those who are called according to his purpose "(Rom 8:28)
Greetings Jim,
Jim, of course this is true, yet this in not even under consideration~what I said is this:
I could have expanded this by saying this simple truth....One of God's attribute that neither angels or man whom he created had .....the attribute of being immutable, though I did mentioned this when I said:
Impossible for God to sin or even be tempted to do so.
Pray to tell me then why are there elect angels? And why did God even have an election of grace before he created anything?
So, are you saying, (which I know are) man without God first quickening him to life can come to God, love and fear him "before" he is born again by the Spirit of the Living God? That's another gospel, pure and simple which gospel falls under the curse of God per Galatians chapter one. So, you need to get rid of certain (not a few, but many) scriptures that said your gospel is not of God.
Jim, you are telling me and all that reads this that God's word is a lie~ that in our flesh, we can come, believe and love God before we have the Spirit of God within us. I'll believe the word of God over any man that said otherwise from what Paul has written concerning all men in the flesh, they are at enmity against God, not just an enemy, even worse, at enmity...at war against the God of heaven. Enough on this point for now.
Call it what you will, I'll call what I have said the truth of the holy scriptures. If it helps you to reject God's truth by calling it Calvinism, that's your problem that you will face God with, and I'm truly sorry for you to a degree, yet we must be faithful to the scriptures over any friendship that we may think we have.
True statement~but only for those who love God~but, does not the same word say~we love him because he first loved us!
If God has ever loved anyone he did so based upon his good pleasure of his own will to do so ~ and if loved by God from before the foundation of the world, that love will never be taken from us, never!
So, it was you that made a different from those who shall perish in the lake of fire, which is the second death?
So, you are glorying in the fact that you chose to love God while others did not and will end up perishing in the lake of fire~ that's a very proud statement~I do not think you will believe the same in that day, pretty sure you will be converted then, if not before.
Ya know, the Apostle Paul claimed that he had to watch himself and not make himself unacceptable to preach Christ to the Gentiles. I would hope that everyone who preaches Christ that this same standard should exist for them as well. I have no regard of John Calvin. He did things that make his words meaningless to me. Burning Michael Servetus at the stake for refusing to believe in a doctrine that Calvin believed made him of no account to me.
There is no scripture that says God foreknew who would believe in Jesus. The "Elect" in 1 Peter 1:2 are those who have elected to believe in Jesus. If God predestinated people to hell before the foundation of the world, he would be unjust and unrighteous. If you believe that God is unrighteous, you will never see heaven. John Calvin was a demon. Why do you want to believe him?
Rella ~ I am a woman
Well-Known Member
Everything
Then God's original design and reason for creating all that he did was flawed.
So he cherry picks those who would be given the opportunity?
I somewhat agree with this but I disagree that it was in anyway in a predestined mode.
This is true.... but at the same time when we were forced into a life to live among the likes of Satanic influences and Satan's ilk I firmly believe that it was not predestination that draws us to God but it was by His foreknowledge of ALL that we are presented with options and one of those options... that was given to you and me.... and NOT his Chosen, who did not have this... was Jesus shedding His blood for us.
I am out of time.... later
John Calvin did not have him burn at the stake, the city of Geneva did because he went there to seek out Calvin to debate him ~Calvin did not seek him out, he sought Calvin out~Calvin even worked with him to prevent his burning to no avail and it was not over unconditional election of grace because most believed in that truth at that time, but over the doctrine of the trinity which Servetus believed somewhat like I do~he rejected the eternal sonship of Jesus Christ for the incarnate sonship doctrine.
Robert, again you are willingly ignorant per 2nd Peter 3:5:
The people of the last days just before Jesus' second coming mocking the scriptures where they teach that he is coming to destroy this world with fire and them IN IT.
They just do not believe the first time God destroyed the old world with water recorded as plain as day in Genesis, with a promised to do the same again with fire, where the lake of fire will be where the wicked shall perish, along with their sin cursed world that they were so in loved with.
Now that's a good one! You make such ignorance statements with no scriptures supporting you, but hundreds, yea, may be thousands that said otherwise! Your doctrine is a doctrine of devils.
So, you just closed your eyes and stopped your ears to Romans 8 quoted above~with no comment on them..Well, sir, one day God will make folks like you come and bow before his saints just as sure as you the sun shall rise again.
You will no longer make such foolish statement against the truth.
Never said he was~yet your hatred against the doctrine of unconditional election of grace makes you think he is, not me!
Tell God when you see him and see what he has to say about this, he just may go and bring Mr. Calvin to you and make you bow before him~that, I don't know, yet what I do know is one should be very careful not to murder a person's character that we know very little of personally.
Robert, I believe this doctrine not because of John Calvin, I believed it before I ever read any of his writings, since I believe, I have read some, but Calvin is far from being my go to guy, truly he's not even high on my list~I read the scriptures foremost, and other men after that~men like Samuel Richardson, a Baptist preacher from London around 1650; John Brine a few years later; John Gill another Baptist~and other men of God 1600 to 1800, not much after that~other than A.W> Pink which I like, yet not so much as to closed my eyes to what God's word said, we bring everything back to the scriptures, regardless who we are reading, or listening to.
I'll will ay this in closing~John Calvin on practical living is one of the best I have read behind, not so much on certain theological doctrine.
Rella, I'm out of time also, I will address your post later, most likely tomorrow.
I'm going to rest and watch Carolina and Duke play, since I'm a diehard Carolina fan being raised within a few miles of the university there in Chapel Hill, NC ~Winston-Salem about 60 miles from the university, of course Duke is only 16 miles more to the east.
Google "The Recorded Atrocities of John Calvin" It will give you a very good look at the demon you have chosen to follow.
Of course, totally perfect knowledge of every single thought of all people, even every single tree leaf falling, etc., etc. God knowledge is so far above what we can even think.
Pray to tell me how this is so, by what I said to you concerning God knowing that if he did not have an election by grace, then none could or would come to a spiritual knowledge, and understanding him on their own when left to themselves. How by saying thsi proves God's orginal plan and purpose of creating man was flawed~so you why God even creating spirits and man?
Which we would never have known and many other attributes of God without God doing doing all things as he has chosen to do, I'm not going to spend much time here which we could do several posts on.
You are welcome to show what you think was in God's original plan for why he created as he did.
No man is given the opportunity, if you have followed me for all these years~God secures their sonship through his Son perfect obedience and righteousness and by two immutable acts of God~his oath and his promises of grace to his elect ~ so they could love, serve, and enjoy him world without end.
Cherry pick~are you mocking God's election of grace? Surely you do not want to place yourself with Ismael who mocked Isaac the son of given by God's oath and promises.
There is no other way, for man to have any hope of eternal life, since it is not by our works of righteousness, since it is impossible for a man who is at enmity against God to all a sudden change his nature and then to begin to love, fear God, impossible.
Eternal life is only given, or had, where there is perfect obedience, since God is infinite righteous without the possibility of sinning, so, the only way to live with him, is to be like him and this is only possible through Christ who was the saint's surety before God, and his righteousness was freely imputeth to them by God's grace.
So, I ask you, why do you disagree with the only manner which you can live forever with God? You certainly cannot do this by your own works, since your very best righteousness is as filthy rags and even worse than that in God's eyes.
Sorry, you are not making a lot of sense, especially so the last part of your statement, maybe you can clarify it later.
But, I will ask this of you~What kind of options were we presented with? Do all men have the equal same options? Are all men born with the same equal ability to chose those options you are talking about? What happens if many do not even get to hear the name of Jesus Christ? Does God make exceptions based on your theory, or what you have come to believe in? How does your doctrine get babies into heaven, idiots, feeble minded men and women, and the barbarians who have not learn yet to put clothes on and to be ashamed of their less comely parts? My understanding of the scriptures has no problem dealing with such people.
I understand that regeneration is totally God's work apart from ALL OPTIONS men come up with....maybe later.
"Michael Servetus to some is a hero, a martyr, while to others he is a heretic. The trial of Servetus is frequently used by those who dislike Calvinism or Calvin to discredit him, while at the same time Calvin’s supporters often tend to downplay this event."
"While many of John Calvins supporters try to downplay Calvins role or ‘influence’ on the trial and execution of Servetus, Calvin was essentially ‘the protestant pope’ of Geneva. He was the ruler. If Calvin had objected to Michael Servetus being burned alive, the city rulers would very likely have done as John Calvin asked."
1 Jn 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
I do recommend that people read this article to get perspective on this period and place where Calvin lived.
The Trial, Burning And Murder Of Michael Servetus By John Calvin | LearnTheology.com
This article will discuss the historical events and people which surround the trial of Michael Servetus. Michael Servetus to some is a hero, a martyr, while
learntheology.com
I will let Rella answer for herself if she chooses to do so, but I will address that from my own point of view. First, let me say that I think the Calvinist/Reformed Theology view, which I think is your view as well, is completely wrong. That view, in part I believe, is that God's plan was to create a body of beings that He would save to become members of His kingdom, the kingdom of God or the kingdom of heaven. That much of that view, I agree with. What I disagree with is the process that the Calvinist/Reformed Theology view claims God put in place.
That process says that God created, in one manner or another, the body of mankind out of which God had preselected even before He created them those that He would save. And that selection was made completely independent of the one being saved. Now of course that could only mean that if that selection was not universal of the whole of mankind, then those not chosen to be in His kingdom were necessarily chosen to be not in His kingdom. And the only recorded alternative to being in His kingdom was eternal condemnation, whatever that might be. That is not exactly a case of puppeteering, but it is so close to it to be indistinguishable.
The problem with such a process is that the entire creation of this physical universe with human inhabitants becomes superfluous. Such a selection process could have been enacted directly by creating that selected group as already perfect without flaws. There would have been no need to create them as flawed beings and then saved. Even worse is that such a selection process produced the bulk of mankind as flawed beings for the sheer purpose of His eternally condemning them. Again, the entire created universe served no purpose in that at all. It could only serve the purpose of a cruel, barbarous, merciless tyrant.
Rather than such a bizarre and vicious plan, I believe that God's plan was to put in place a process whereby He would create a body of beings who, given the opportunity, would choose to love and obey Him for the gracious God that He actually is. That is the reason that a belief in God is such a critical element of that plan. Faith in God, not a proven fact of God, is key to that process. If God, heaven and hell were all a demonstrated and evidentiary fact, all would choose to obey even if they did not love Him.
What we have in this world then is God's plan to produce that body of beings who, given the opportunity, choose to love and obey Him.
That plan is laid out and described fully in the Bible. The biblical record provides all that is necessary to believe in God, to have faith in Him. What God foreknows, through His perfect omniscience, is who, given that biblical record to believe in God and given the opportunity to love and obey Him will choose to do so. It is those, based upon that foreknowledge, that He predestines to be in the kingdom of God, the kingdom of heaven. In all of this, God knows that even in being given the opportunity to love and obey Him, that love and obedience will not be perfect which is what is required. That is the reason for Jesus and the perfect propitiation provided by His sacrifice. That is what is being described in the nutshell of Romans 8:28-30.
There is so much more to be said, but I will stop there.
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I quickly glanced over some of this~he is a very biased writer, a confessed arminian~do you truly think he was honest concerning Calvin?
Personally, I will not spend time protecting any man's doctrine, we almost exclusively labor to stay in the scriptures and defend them not man. Yet it is men who labor to draw you into such discussion, and then use that against you~so I said enough I rather discuss/debate scriptures. But will add one more point....
It depends on what you call a murderer. Was Moses a murderer? In the sense in which you are calling Calvin?
I have a better one~how about David, who sent a letter having Uriah put on the front line of the battles so that he would be killed, after he already committed adultery with his wife and she was found with a child~and when his first plan failed through, then took Uriah's wife after Uriah he had him killed to protect his wicked sin, and then, more or less, blamed Uriah's death on God, if you read the account! 2nd Samuel 11
Do not forget, spreading false information concerning a man's character is murder, even spreading true information to hurt one's character could be murder in God's eyes~if spreading is to only hurt our neighbour's character and to make us look better than our neighbour. Unless we were eye witness, and or, part of the situation, than any words from us is pure gossip to hurt our neighbour's character~could be, just short of murdering our neighbour.
I think we just left the main road and went off on a tangent. As to your questions, neither Moses nor David were in the New Covenant. Moses did kill and Egyptian and David did set up a man for death. This was during a time where they can repent and offer sacrifices to cover their sins. I can't know how God handled it. For those who sit at the feet of John Calvin, they should at least know what kind of person the man who gave the world "Calvinism."
There are many other sources for this event. I'm fairly certain you have already searched for them.
Two more points and I'm finished.
David's sin was great, yet we all have sin similar to David's if honest, or maybe even worse. Once loved by God, always loved by God, be it OT saints, or NT saints, the blood of Jesus Christ has put away all of our sins, past, present, and future.... this is true of all of God's children ~ the OT sacrifices did nothing to legally cover any sin.
John Calvin did not give the world Calvinism~Luther believer stronger than Calvin on free will vs. the bondage of the sinner's will. Calvin's Institutes played a major role of educating the known world of the doctrines of the Christian Religion~afterall, the printing press was just invented just before Calvin was born which contributed greatly in educating the world on the Christian Religion which doctrines were widely held and preach by different religious group~even in the Church of England, (Look at their articles of faith below ) yet no longer loved and preach as it once was.
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Rella ~ I am a woman
Well-Known Member
I am not mocking God's anything. I am saying that the very idea of predestination that God the Father would
have spent time with creating this big ball of mud and all the things with blood running through them was done so God could prechose... for that is what it amounts to, those people that he would tap with the opportunity of eternal life in heaven.
I am saying that YES, CERTAINLY< there were those like Jeremiah et al who were specifically chosen for
their assignments from the Heavenly creator, but the way everyone presents... including you, this idea that God predestined certain people who would have that opportunity and not every one flies in the face of Titus 2:11
which says
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (ALL)
Truth.... and another predestination hiccup/
If you truly believe that God had that in mind.... WHY were only His initial Chosen, chosen?
Out of christ Jesus' mouth Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
So... Me thinks that is this predestination thing was the original plan in God's blueprints... It was limited to Israel.... IN THE BEGINNING... Not you, not me, and NOT the Pope either.
Every ministry must have priorities, and Christ’s ministry was no exception. When Jesus sent His disciples to preach the good news of the kingdom, He expressly told them, “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matt 10"5-6).
It is important to know this....Jesus did not forbid their preaching to all Gentiles; He did, however, narrow their focus to the areas which should be most receptive...those who knew the Law and were expecting the Messiah. Paul, in his missionary journeys, followed the same priority of preaching to the Jews first (Romans 1"16).
Does this truly sound like predestination on God's terms as applying to all, from before there was anything?
Jesus’ words to that Canaanite woman served as a test of her faith. She came to Jesus believing that He was the “Lord,” the “Son of David,” and the giver of mercy (Matt 15:22). His delayed answer and seemingly exclusionary statement brought from her a further, passionate, public expression of her faith in His unlimited power (Matt 15:27).
She had heard HIm and she believed. It is that simple. The free will allowed her this . After all we are told..WE WALK BY FAITH, NOT BY SIGHT.... and she did. But that wan not the original intent.
CALVIN:
And I know I will run out of space.
Every single predestination believing church I know of... ( not that many) ... follows the Westminster Confession of Faith.
Which says on the subject
Chapter 3: Predestined unto Life in ChristChapter Three of the Confession of Faith is Entitled "God's Eternal Decree"
Section five of the chapter on God's decree deals with the nature of predestination. Several important points are made.First, the point is emphasised that God elected his people to life before the world was made. Or, to put it otherwise, as the world was shaped and as men were placed in it, God's decree to save lay behind all that God did. Creation, therefore, was no arbitrary act, but an act for the glory of God in the salvation of sinners. As God made the universe, he was preparing a stage upon which He would enact the great drama of his salvation and electing purpose.
Secondly, God's election is described as "according to his eternal and immutable purpose and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will". Predestination belongs to the secret things of God. We believe that he has a purpose in the world, and that it is unalterable and unchangeable. We believe that God acts according to a holy and single impulse, by which the destinies of men and angels are shaped by him. There is no compulsion external to himself, and no regret over what he has done.
What there is, is a personal, holy, divine decree, which alone can secure the salvation of sinners.
( Seemingly God intended for us to be sinners... ergo Adam and Eve were just following the script)
Thirdly, election is in Christ. How often the phrase 'in Christ' appears in the Bible! It is the very definition of living, vital Christianity. And God chooses in Christ, binding the decree to save for ever with the Person of His Son.
( Truth, but again... "Israel, Jews, were a lot of people before Christ Jesus came to earth... and they were the chosen)
Fourth, predestination fixes the ultimate salvation point not on conversion or justification or even adoption, but on "everlasting glory". We do not stop at the exercise of faith; that is only the beginning. That is, to use Boston's phrase, "begun recovery". God's grand design is the bringing of many sons to glory, for which he paid the price of the giving up of the one Son he had in the glory.
Fifthly, election flows from "free grace and love". It is not earned, not merited, not worked at, nor asked for. It comes to us out of the depths of the being of the God who is love, the God who does not need to save, but who loves to save, the God who is able to save, and who channels all the interests of His saving grace into a redemptive plan. So much is this true that at last the apostle can say "He loved me, and gave himself for me".
Finally, election is not because of any foresight God had; it is not that he saw we would believe, or do good works, or persevere either in faith or in good works; it is not because he saw any good in us as a condition of his election that he chose us. To be sure he foresaw all these things; but as the result of his predestinating us, and not as its cause. There must be faith, and good works in the life of the saved people of God; there must be joy, and peace, and life, and hope. There must be evidence of what He has done, and evidence of what grace has achieved. Where the Spirit is, there is fruit.
But enter the Calvin contingent...
Predestination According to Calvin According to John Calvin, predestination is God's unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be "barred from access to" salvation and sentenced to "eternal death".
But Calvin has had too much influence...
Britannica says this
Calvin’s influence has persisted not only in the Reformed churches of France, Germany, Scotland, the Netherlands, and Hungary but also in the Church of England, where Calvin was long at least as highly regarded as among those Puritans who separated from the Anglican establishment. The latter organized their own churches, Presbyterian or Congregational, which brought Calvinism to North America. Even today these churches, along with the originally German Evangelical and Reformed Church, recall Calvin as their founding father. Eventually Calvinist theology was also widely accepted by major groups of Baptists; and even Unitarianism, which broke away from the Calvinist churches of New England in the 18th century, reflected the more rational impulses in Calvin’s theology. More recently Protestant interest in the social implications of the Gospel and Protestant neo-orthodoxy, as represented by Karl Barth, Emil Brunner, and Reinhold Niebuhr, reflects the continuing influence of John Calvin.
He obviously believe that God created people that would be denied. He believed God would
"freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be "barred from access to" salvation and sentenced to "eternal death".
SOME?????? WHERE TITUS STATES "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (ALL)
That is not some that is all inclusive giving those men (people) the option to choose
Highlighted area are mine for discussion ~ as my manner is.
It is not easy to keep post of this nature short, and still cover the subject under consideration adequately but here we go.
You know the scriptures that said:
All of the works of God are perfectly done, to show us just how equal, just, and righteous his ways are, and done so that flesh could not possibly glory in his presence, and they never will, even though they will us every ounce of their being to do so.~until they finally stand before his awesome presence which is so beyond our comprehension or ability to think of~even though vain man thinks he can, afterall, it took him around five years of age form stop messing all over himself!
Do you truly believe or even entertain the thoughts that God has left salvation from sin and condemnation into the power of both the will of the flesh, or the will of some mortal man's ability to get folks born again? Do you think God was limited in some way of knowing the right path to take in bringing many sons to glory, and that would put on display his infinite attributes which we would have never known apart for him revealing these to us by creating us, and then opening our eyes of our understanding to know them.
God chose the very most godly manner and the one that brought glory alone to him where it truly belongs ~what he did is recorded for us in several places, but for now. let's consider very briefly these scriptures:
By the very fact God even decided to create was is absolute prerogative, he didn't have to ask permission, for whatever he decided to do was right, godly, and glorious, for whatever he did purpose would ultimately prove to be the apex of wisdom, knowledge and understanding, and righteousness. If we know anything, we both should know that God's choice of his eternal purpose, which he purposed after the counsel of his own will; are truly very humbling in the people that he has chosen to be his people. Read again 1st Corinthians 1 the latter scriptures.
Rella, there are no hiccups in any doctrine taught in the scriptures especially so predestination and unconditional election of pure grace, none whatsoever~only road barriers for knows folks holding to another gospel of works.
Rella, not all men without exception, because we both know God makes exception even you said so in this very post:
So, you should see the true sense of these words to mean: All "without distinction", both Jews and Gentiles...not all without exception. There was definitely a clear distinction in the old Testament before the death of Jesus Christ, beteem the Jews and Gentiles, even you said this again in your post:
Your emphasis not mine.
Well friend it just ran out for me, for I'm not going to defend a man, be it Calvin, Luther, or Augustine, or even the Wesley brothers John and Charles, who wrote some great hymns for the church, or even the apostle Paul as great and faithful as he was.
We live by every word of God, not by the faith of holy men in the past~they all had their faults Just as we do, but most likely, less than we do.
I will defend with all of my might the true gospel of Jesus Christ according to Galatians 2:16-21.
Rella ~ I am a woman
Well-Known Member
Red,
Do you believe if one does not believe in predestination as you do that that person is lost?
Dont bother to answer... you already did...
RB~ "So, I ask you, why do you disagree with the only manner which you can live forever with God? You certainly cannot do this by your own works, since your very best righteousness is as filthy rags and even worse than that in God's eyes."
And Jesus did not shed His blood for me???
Dont bother to answer.... You already have
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