CALVINISM: The height of Spiritual depravity

[Red Baker]

That is the beginning of all understanding of the scriptures, Jesus said, "That whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16. This is basic Christianity.

Now some want to try and fit Calvinism and a myriad of other beliefs into this and in doing that they have perverted basic Christianity, and the Gospel. I let the Historical Gospel of Jesus Christ call all things into question, Not a few questionable scriptures.

Well, you are doing a terrible job of understanding by holding on to "your historical Gospel"~John 3:16 is not stating a condition to be performed in order to receive~but, a "declaration of" a biblical truth that believers have everlasting life now and they shall never perish in the lake of fire, which is the second death.

This scripture is not questionable, but your abuse of it certainly is!

 

[Ritajanice]

I'm not going to debate it here in this thread, but I'm 100% convinced that ALL four were children of God, yet only one group were frutifull~the parable of the sower is given for us to heed take how we hear the word of God and the measure we need to take to make sure what we hear remains in us so we CAN BEAR fruit. Selah

How can the word of God not remain in us, if we are Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed?

1 Peter 1:23

King James Version

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23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

No one can bear fruit of Jesus without being Born Again?

 

[Ritajanice]

Well, you are doing a terrible job of understanding by holding on to "your historical Gospel"~John 3:16 is not stating a condition to be performed in order to receive~but, a "declaration of" a biblical truth that believers have everlasting life now and they shall never perish in the lake of fire, which is the second death.

This scripture is not questionable, but your abuse of it certainly is!

They are doing a terrible job of understanding?
Who brings us to understanding Gods word?

We are all at different levels of understanding Gods word?

 

[Red Baker]

Acts 13:48 is a verse that is dearly loved by the Calvinist/Reformed Theology groups. And that is understandable because it is misinterpreted by nearly every English translation available.

Jim, I do not love this scripture more or less than the ones before it or after, they all are part of one cohesive whole, teaching one and the same truth! I have never preached from Acts 13:48~but no doubt mentioned it when I went through this book back in the early eighties, I'm sure, when we met in homes with other folks.

But, you are wrong about it being a mistranslation. If as a Christians, I cannot trust this scripture as inspired of God, then what scripture can I trust, if there is doubt put upon just one or two here and there, then why not all of them? Sorry, I do not buy into that philosophy by vain men who just do not like certain scriptures, so their recourse is to run to the Greek and try to strip its truth from what God intended to teach us. I have said it many times over, I trust God that he has protected his words from the generation of evil workers according to Psalms 12 just as he said he would~I believe him.

As usually translated, it is very true that this passage sounds as if it is supporting the key Calvinist doctrine of unconditional predestination.

Jim, it just doesn't sounds as "if"~it is teaching this truth ~ it is teaching unconditional election of grace. Not unconditional predestination, but unconditional election, predestination is a given, if elected unconditional. They are not one and the same.

This is the idea that in His eternal pre-creation counsels and plans, God surveyed all the human beings whom He would ultimately bring into existence, all of whom as a result of Adam’s sin would become guilty of sin and condemned to hell.

Jim, Jack is wrong also here with this statement.

No where in Genesis or any other book in God's word do we read that man is condemned to hell because of his sin and disobedience. He is sentenced to DEATH, both physical and the second death, if not saved from condemnation by the death of Jesus Christ. There is no such place as a present burning hell fire, nor, a hell fire that will be as long as God is God ~ that's a Roman Catholicism heresy that supported her doctrine of purgatory where she was paid $$$$$$$$$ to get folks out of. But, another day and another thread for that doctrine.

By God’s decree this universal sinfulness would also involve universal total depravity, including the loss of all free-will ability to turn toward God for salvation. The only way anyone could ever be saved was if God worked some basic supernatural change within the human heart that would not only make faith possible but would also actually implant that faith within the heart as an irresistible and irrevocable gift.

God did not decree sin, and neither is he the author of it. In God's infinite knowledge he knew that both angels and man would fall, not possessing immutability ~ as he did, only in this sense did God create sin~ by allowing creation of both angels and man.

Isaiah 45:7~" I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

The question is this: how can this be reconciled with the non-Calvinist view? The key lies in the form of the main Greek verb, tassō. The basic meaning of this verb is “to place, to order, to appoint, to ordain, to determine, to arrange in order.” As it appears in this text, the verb form is the participle tetagmenoi. It is obvious that most simply assume that this is the PASSIVE form of the verb, thus: “to be appointed, to be ordained, to be destined.” What is often forgotten is that in the Greek language, often the passive and the middle form of verbs are spelled exactly the same way. That is the case here. The word tetagmenoi can also be the MIDDLE form of the verb. Here is the main point: that is how it should be understood in Acts 13:48, i.e., as middle voice.

What does this verse mean, then? The middle voice of a verb in Greek is sometimes used in a reflexive sense. The idea is that the action of the verb is something performed by the subject (not by someone else upon the subject), but in such a way that the action is directed back toward the subject or the self. Understanding that the verb means “to place, to set, to arrange in a certain order or position,” we can see that the statement in 13:48 can quite validly be taken thus: “As many as arranged themselves unto (eis) eternal life believed,” or “As many as turned themselves toward eternal life believed,” or “As many as disposed themselves toward eternal life believed.”

Why should we accept this approach to the verb—i.e., as middle voice rather than passive? For three reasons. First, that very same form of the Greek work appears also in Acts 20:13 where we read, "But going ahead to the ship, we set sail for Assos, intending to take Paul aboard there, for so he had arranged, intending himself to go by land."

This is a classic example of someone guilty of corrupting God's word.

2nd Corinthians 2:17~"For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ."

He totally twist the verse totally around to support his gospel of man having a part in his salvation from sin and condemnation. Doing what Jack is doing he basically is saying that fishermen, carpenters, etc., cannot understand the scriptures without someone like him telling them that the Greek said this, that, or the other. That is a device from Satan himself!

 

[Scott Downey]

How can the word of God not remain in us, if we are Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed?

1 Peter 1:23​

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King James Version​

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23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

No one can bear fruit of Jesus without being Born Again?

People confuse good works and good fruit, they are different things.
We must bear good fruit to God or we are not saved.
Good works we do only benefit men

Once born again we have Him inside us forever and we cannot sin.
Thing is people will twist this stuff left and right trying to break the scripture, but Jesus told us scripture cannot be broken.
They will argue about this verse here too as they do not understand what it means.
The child of God cannot sin and is perfected SPIRITUALLY. We are not in our minds though perfect.
Our flesh sins, but our new spirit in Christ cannot sin.

1 John 3
8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

 

[Scott Downey]

An example of us bearing GOOD FRUIT to GOD is written here and is contrasted to the works of the flesh.
Bearing good fruit to God shows the work of the Spirit in the lives of saved people.

NO good fruit to God? Works of the flesh? The scripture here is not about good works.
Contentions, Dissentions, heresies are all on ugly display and practiced over and over by some in this forum.
Well watch some argue about this too.
This thread was started as a work of the flesh, as a contention to stir up hatred, against the scriptures.
It is however still useful to expose these things and show the truth which some will believe then. God will sort them out.
Galatians 5

Walking in the Spirit​

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: [d]adultery, [e]fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, [f]murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 [g]gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

 

[JBO]

Greetings Jim~I just got in, and trying to get caught on reading the posts that have been posted before finishing Romans 8.

I also would like to comment of Acts 13:48, and Ephesians 2:8,9.... but later.

I have a busy next three days, with one day leaving to head to Augusta, Ga. ~ but hope to turn that trip in one day, plus, do what I need to do there as well.

a little quick note:

Jim, you are wrong on this my friend, very wrong ~ "that" refers back to FAITH, which is a gift from God, but Paul is not speaking our the faith we excise in Christ, but the faith that Christ secured for his people! I have address this truth with these very scriptures on GCF, but we love to do so again for others to consider.

RB

No, I am not wrong about the Greek grammar of Ephesians 2:8. You can check it for yourself. Nearly every scholar will admit that the only correct grammatical reading of that verse is for the Greek word, τοῦτο [touto] must refer back to the entire phrase "by grace you have been saved through faith". The problem is that there are some, such as John Gill who will admit that grammatical fact, but, like you, insist upon incorrectly inserting his own personal, and false, soteriological belief system into the interpretation. If Paul, through the Holy Spirit, wanted the phrase, "and that not of yourselves" to refer back to the word "faith", he could have done that easily and correctly with the right Greek feminine pronoun. Neither Paul nor the Holy Spirit would have foolishly and stupidly chosen the wrong pronoun. And it would make no difference which definition or meaning you want to assign to the word "faith".

But I will read and perhaps comment on whatever you provide. You know that I do very much enjoy our discussions.

 

[Red Baker]

The word "that" in "and that not of yourselves" does not refer back to either faith or grace. It can't since in the Greek it is neuter gender and both grace and fiaith in the Greek are feminine gender. The only acceptable interpretation is that it refers to the entire phrase, "by grace you have been saved through faith". In other words, the gift is salvation.

Let us look at Ephesians 2:8,9:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Very few truly understand this verse ~ it took me years to totally grasp a hold of it, so, by that very fact, it should teach me to be very patience with anyone who fails to understand this verse correctly and show all meekness to all men as long as they do not come across with a haughty spirit.

For by grace are ye saved through faith~Salvation is all of grace without the mixture of the works of the law, meaning without any commandment that in essence said: "This do and live, sin and died" Man by nature is without spiritual strength, he is in bonadage to sin and the devil himself. Man is dead in trepsasses and sin just as Ephesians 2:1 said:

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"

A man must first be quickened to life before he can see, hear and believe. This is true of a John the Baptist as well as a Judas Iscariot. By nature we all came from the same corrupt family tree whose father was Adam. Ephesians 2:2

"through faith; and that not of yourselves:" The means in which a sinner is saved from sin and condemnation is Faith. The question that must be asked is WHO FAITH?

The scriptures does not leave us in the dark concerning this question, but is very clear as to whose faith secured salvation for God's people.

Galatians 2:16~"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Galatians 2:16 the most powerful verse in all of the word of God revealing to us how a person is legally justified in God's sight~by the faith of Jesus Christ, which is the same thing as saying by his obedience are we accounted the righteousness of God on the behalf of Jesus Christ. Also read and compare: Romans 3:21-24; Philippians 3:8; Galatians 2:20; Acts 3:16; etc.

"through faith"~faith is a metonymy for Christ~we know this by understanding other scriptures and all scriptures must be taken as a cohesive whole in order to understand perfect doctrine taught throughout. It cannot teach one doctrine here and another in another place contradicting each other.

"THAT" not of yourselves refers back to FAITH~and we see very clearly it is impossible for faith to be of ourselves since the scriptures clearly states that man in the flesh CANNOT please God, impossible to do so.......he must first be quickened and then be in the Spirit, or born again after the image of Jesus Christ before he can have faith. Romans 8:1-8.

And that faith he will have is the faith of Jesus Christ that he alone secured for us. Galatians 2:20. It is the image of Jesus Christ in him causing that person to believe. The old man Adam wars against this new man within every child of God.

 

[Red Baker]

They are doing a terrible job of understanding?
Who brings us to understanding Gods word?

We are all at different levels of understanding Gods word?

Greetings Ritajanice~The Spirit of the Living God must be our teacher. And yes, most of God's children are on different levels of understanding.

 

[JBO]

Actually your idea is wrong there.
The only saved person was the one who bore fruit to God, none of the others did.

Calvin called it the perseverance of the saints.

I didn't say anything about any saved person. I spoke only about the Calvinist claim that only the regenerated can hear, see and believe anything about God, Christ and the gospel. Clearly, that is denied in the parable of the sower.

 

[Red Baker]

How can the word of God not remain in us, if we are Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed?

1 Peter 1:23​

​

King James Version​

​

​

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

No one can bear fruit of Jesus without being Born Again?

Greetings Rita~

We are not born again by the word of God, that's not what Peter is saying. Men are dead in sins, he must FIRST be given life before he can see. hear and believe.

The proper sense of what Peter is saying is this: We are born again according to the testimony of the word of God; or, we are born again by the witness of God's word that he has given to us, the only means that we have telling us how we are born again. COnsider;

1st Corinthians 2:1~"And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God."

God's word His his testimony to us of all spiritual truths, including how we come to love and follow him. The scriptures reveals to us how He birth us into his family. Again consider:

1st John 5:8-13~"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

God has given to us a witness of many spiritual truth, one is concerning how a sinner is born again. I can tell all folks how sinners are born again based upon the testimony/witness of God and that testimony and witness is true!

This is the proper sense of 1st Peter 1:23.

 

[Ritajanice]

Greetings Rita~

We are not born again by the word of God, that's not what Peter is saying. Men are dead in sins, he must FIRST be given life before he can see. hear and believe.

Being Born Again of imperishable seed also means being regenerated?

We are Born Again by the “ Living word of God”?

The proper sense of what Peter is saying is this: We are born again according to the testimony of the word of God; or, we are born again by the witness of God's word that he has given to us, the only means that we have telling us how we are born again.

We are Born Again by the Living word of God?

The Holy Spirit is our witness, the Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children?

The Holy Spirit is Gods Living word, which is his seed that brings our spirit Alive in Christ, when “ HE” decides to bring our spirit Alive...when he decides to give us the gift of Faith, which is a manifestation of the Spirit?

God's word His his testimony to us of all spiritual truths, including how we come to love and follow him. The scriptures reveals to us how He birth us into his family. Again consider:

Jesus explains to Nicodemus...Born Again...you never know when the Holy Spirit will turn up and baptise us in the Spirit.

Just like the wind can turn up and cause utter destruction.

The Holy Spirit turns up and brings life to our spiritually dead spirit?

God has given to us a witness of many spiritual truth, one is concerning how a sinner is born again. I can tell all folks how sinners are born again based upon the testimony/witness of God and that testimony and witness is true!

This is the proper sense of 1st Peter 1:23.

That is your opinion of how one is Born Again as is mine...doesn’t make it any more truth than others of opinions.

 

[Ritajanice]

Greetings Ritajanice~The Spirit of the Living God must be our teacher. And yes, most of God's children are on different levels of understanding.

Yes, the Spirit of God is our teacher.

So, let him teach!.

 

[JBO]

Very few truly understand this verse ~ it took me years to totally grasp a hold of it, so, by that very fact, it should teach me to be very patience with anyone who fails to understand this verse correctly and show all meekness to all men as long as they do not come across with a haughty spirit.

I think that the reason it took you so long to grasp a hold of it, was that what it actually says was not what you wanted it to say in order to agree with what you want to believe.

A man must first be quickened to life before he can see, hear and believe.

As I pointed out in reply #110 to Scott Downey, the parable of the Sower in Luke 8 rejects that claim. You are wrong.

Luk 8:13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

Without argument, it is clear that those on the rocky soil are unregenerated; however, it is also clear that Jesus describes them as hearing and receiving the word and believing, if only for a while.

"through faith; and that not of yourselves:" The means in which a sinner is saved from sin and condemnation is Faith. The question that must be asked is WHO FAITH?

So many times we have had this discussion. Your idea that Jesus, the Son of God, needed or had faith in God rather than absolute knowledge of God is simply ludicrous. You destroy the very essence of His divine being and nature.

It is appropriate in some instances of the use of the word "faith" that it refers to God's whole system of redemption and salvation of mankind rather that the belief of any individual person. That would be similar to how the word "Way" is used in Acts 19:9 and Acts 19:23.

But it is simply not appropriate to assign the word "faith" in its meaning of hope in the absence of absolute knowledge as you are want to do here.

 

[Scott Downey]

Greetings Rita~

We are not born again by the word of God, that's not what Peter is saying. Men are dead in sins, he must FIRST be given life before he can see. hear and believe.

The proper sense of what Peter is saying is this: We are born again according to the testimony of the word of God; or, we are born again by the witness of God's word that he has given to us, the only means that we have telling us how we are born again. COnsider;


God's word His his testimony to us of all spiritual truths, including how we come to love and follow him. The scriptures reveals to us how He birth us into his family. Again consider:


God has given to us a witness of many spiritual truth, one is concerning how a sinner is born again. I can tell all folks how sinners are born again based upon the testimony/witness of God and that testimony and witness is true!

This is the proper sense of 1st Peter 1:23.

We are born by the Spirit of God of incorruptible seed, meaning once born of God we are saved forever incorruptible, and that new spirit God creates inside us cannot sin.

1 John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Whose seed? God's seed.
Why incorruptible? Satan, the wicked one cannot touch him.
1 John 3:6
Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

1 John 5:18
We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

 

[Ritajanice]

As I pointed out in reply #110 to Scott Downey, the parable of the Sower in Luke 8 rejects that claim. You are wrong.

Luk 8:13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

Without argument, it is clear that those on the rocky soil are unregenerated; however, it is also clear that Jesus describes them as hearing and receiving the word and believing, if only for a while

What is being said here @Red Baker ?

 

[Scott Downey]

I know some here do not believe in eternal salvation and their salvation fully depends on their continued obedience. But the scripture says differently. Of course the person has to actually be born again saved in the first place for their eternal salvation to be genuine.
And the first verse also shows our election according to the foreknowledge of God. Some do not believe the scriptures.
And they will argue with you to their death. Does not sound like bearing good fruit to me.

1 Peter 1
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the [a]pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

A Heavenly Inheritance​

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance [b]incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[Ritajanice]

I know some here do not believe in eternal salvation and their salvation fully depends on their continued obedience. But the scripture says differently. Of course the person has to actually be saved in the first place for their eternal salvation to be genuine.

A Born Again knows they have been Born Again of imperishable seed, any scripture other than that doesn’t apply to a Born Again...and it’s not cherry picking, it’s Gods truth speaking to His children?

We are in the Kingdom of God, we have those spiritual eyes and ears , as were in Gods Son, we will grow and mature in his word....in his timing.

1 John 5:20​

1 John 5:20 KJV​

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

 

[Ritajanice]

We are born by the Spirit of God of incorruptible seed, meaning once born of God we are saved forever incorruptible, and that new spirit God creates inside us cannot sin.

1 John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Whose seed? God's seed.
Why incorruptible? Satan, the wicked one cannot touch him.
1 John 3:6
Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

1 John 5:18
We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

Excellent....Amen!!!

 

[Scott Downey]

5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
*************************************************************************************************************
There is a lot going on in that one verse.
Faith is dealt to us by God in different measures, it shows faith is His gift, we receive it and it is them our faith.
The salvation to be revealed at the end is when He returns and delivers us from this present evil age.

Hebrews 9
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Hebrews 12
Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the [a]author and [b]finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.