CALVINISM: The height of Spiritual depravity

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JBO

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To be in Christ is to be free from laws, rules and religion. To be under the law is to be in bondage to sin. The law promotes sin, Romans 7:8-9. The harder that you try not to sin, the more you will sin. Don't get caught up in the sin fight, if you do you will lose. What is the solution? It is faith that Jesus has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil and that we are complete in him, Colossians 2:10. So that we don't have to be concerned about it.
That is not true. Being in Christ is not being free from the law. Being in Christ does not mean we are free to murder, steal, covet, etc., When Paul says that we are not under the law, he is not saying that we do not need to obey the law. He is saying that being in Christ is being free from the condemnation that comes from failure to keep the law. One of the main works of the indwelling Holy Spirit is to help us obey the law. While much of the Law of Moses has been set aside, the moral parts of the law are still intact. Moreover, throughout the NT we read of even more laws moral in nature are presented. Paul, for example, spoke of the law of Christ.

1Co 9:21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

Gal 6:1 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.

Gal 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
 

JBO

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No we use the verified accurate translations and follow them without redefining terms as you have done.
It is the Calvinist who misdefines terms. Terms such as called, foreknowledge, predestination, sovereignty, and so many more are given definitions that distort the gospel to coincide with the Calvinist theology, especially soteriology.
 

amigo de christo

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To be in Christ is to be free from laws, rules and religion. To be under the law is to be in bondage to sin. The law promotes sin, Romans 7:8-9. The harder that you try not to sin, the more you will sin. Don't get caught up in the sin fight, if you do you will lose. What is the solution? It is faith that Jesus has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil and that we are complete in him, Colossians 2:10. So that we don't have to be concerned about it.
Your mistaking something . GOD did not create the law to PROMOTE SIN . the law came about because of trangressions .
The sacrifcing of bulls and of goats was to cleanse the flesh when they errred.
It never prompts US TO SIN . Now it sure can show us that we all have sinned . Yes and it does show us
what sin is . The law itself came about because for the trangressions of the peoples . TILL the ACTUAL PROMISE
came , WHich IS JESUS CHRIST .
Yet many are still under the law , a slave to sin , trangressors o the law . Many thinking they can be justified
by their own works and many also who use the name of JESUS CHRIST and yet follow the flesh .
THESE BE TRANSGRESSORS and are still UNDER the law .
TRUE LOVE wont trangress , TRUE LOVE FULLFILLS . IN fact THERE IS NO LAW
against love because the love o GOD dont trangress the law .
YET today i seem to see me a bankrupt version of love that actually does use the name of JESUS
to trangress , to support sin , to also support the idea that muslims , buddists and etc
are serving the same GOD we do , IF they so call have this love thy neighbor stuff .
Any love that honors sins , is OF THE WORLD AND NOT OF GOD
and any love that negates the FACT one must BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST to be saved , ITS OF ANTI CHRIST
and of the world . We better ponder and pray and get ourselves back into the bible .
 

amigo de christo

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It is only when you have the freedom to sin that you will stop sinning. The law will not stop anyone from sinning, it will actually promote sin, Romans 7:7-12.
The law itself WONT stop anyone from sinning . Due to the flesh .
But the blood of CHRIST now that can cleanse THE CONSCIOUS .
What was not possible for the flesh , IS POSSIBLE IN JESUS CHRIST , and its about HIGH TIME the CHURCH GETS TOLD This reminder
and stops listening to men whose conscious knows NOT CHRIST as they sit and tell the peoples
YE can sin a thousand times a day and still all would be well .
WRONG . Paul said LET IT NOT Once be named . TODAY its STOP JUDGING WE ALL SINNERS , JUST hug and get along .
Todays mindset is bad news . TIME for the lambs to learn the MIND of CHRIST ,
TIme for the lambs to KNEEL in submission before GOD and HIS CHRIST and not before wayward men who lead them astray .
ITS TIME for the peoples TO GET stirred up again by the pure way of remembrance , GET IN THEM BIBLES
and let THEM WORDS , them reminders , BY POWER o the SPIRIT remind and build us up . CAUSE men are decieving the flocks
by massive amounts now .
 
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Ronald Nolette

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It is the Calvinist who misdefines terms. Terms such as called, foreknowledge, predestination, sovereignty, and so many more are given definitions that distort the gospel to coincide with the Calvinist theology, especially soteriology.
Okay you made your allegation, now show it with facts.
 

Ronald Nolette

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It is the Calvinist who misdefines terms. Terms such as called, foreknowledge, predestination, sovereignty, and so many more are given definitions that distort the gospel to coincide with the Calvinist theology, especially soteriology.

sovereign​

[ sov-rin, sov-er-in, suhv- ]SHOW IPA
0b29c1db2f0b1c9452c7.svg


See synonyms for sovereign on Thesaurus.com

noun
  1. a monarch; a king, queen, or other supreme ruler.


  2. a person who has supreme power or authority.



    How do I misdefine this term??






    Foreknowledge:


    Transliteration
    prognōsis (Key)
    Pronunciation
    prog'-no-sis


    Dictionary Aids
    Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
    TDNT Reference: 1:715,119
    KJV Translation Count — Total: 2x
    The KJV translates Strong's G4268 in the following manner: foreknowledge (2x).
    Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
    1. foreknowledge
    2. forethought, pre-arrangement.



    So biblically foreknowledge is a pre- arrangement! How do I misdefine this term?



    predestinate:


    Transliteration
    proorizō (Key)
    Pronunciation
    pro-or-id'-zo
    1. to predetermine, decide beforehand
    2. in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
    3. to foreordain, appoint beforehand

    This means to decide or mark ahead of time!


    So I await your expertise in telling me how I have redefined these terms.
 

JBO

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Okay you made your allegation, now show it with facts.
Consider the word foreknowledge or foreknow. The meaning is quite simple. God's foreknowledge is His omniscience applied to the future. It really means nothing more than that.

Now I well understand that a Calvinist like John Gill does not necessarily represent all Calvinism or all Calvinists, yet his discussion on the word foreknow in reference to, say Romans 8:29, does illustrate my point. He writes,

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow,.... The foreknowledge of God here, does not intend his prescience of all things future; by which he foreknows and foretells things to come, and which distinguishes him from all other gods; and is so called, not with respect to himself, with whom all things are present, but with respect to us, and which is eternal, universal, certain, and infallible; for in this sense he foreknows all men, and if this was the meaning here, then all men would be predestinated, conformed to the image of Christ, called by grace, justified and glorified; whereas they are a special people, whom God has foreknown: nor is this foreknowledge to be understood of any provision or foresight of the good works, holiness, faith, and perseverance of men therein, upon which God predestinates them to happiness; since this would make something out of God, and not his good pleasure, the cause of predestination; which was done before, and without any consideration of good or evil, and is entirely owing to the free grace of God, and is the ground and foundation of good works, faith, holiness, and perseverance in them: but this regards the everlasting love of God to his own people, his delight in them, and approbation of them; in this sense he knew them, he foreknew them from everlasting, affectionately loved them, and took infinite delight and pleasure in them; and this is the foundation of their predestination and election, of their conformity to Christ, of their calling, justification, and glorification:

If you follow this, the simple meaning of foreknowledge is precisely what Gill says it is not. The entire discussion here on foreknowledge is one long tirade explaining that God's foreknowledge is not something that God foreknows in the simple sense of knowing it beforehand. Rather Gill says that it really is God's feelings for a preselected group that "he loved, took delight and pleasure in" having actually nothing whatsoever to do with them at all and hence having nothing to do with what He foreknew about them.

I could do this with so much of the Calvinist jargon as it relates to soteriology. I won't bother with that here, but it illustrates my point. He has to do it because the simple straightforward meaning is in direct contradiction to his soteriology.
 

JBO

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sovereign​

[ sov-rin, sov-er-in, suhv- ]SHOW IPA
0b29c1db2f0b1c9452c7.svg


See synonyms for sovereign on Thesaurus.com

noun
  1. a monarch; a king, queen, or other supreme ruler.


  2. a person who has supreme power or authority.



    How do I misdefine this term??






    Foreknowledge:


    Transliteration
    prognōsis (Key)
    Pronunciation
    prog'-no-sis


    Dictionary Aids
    Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
    TDNT Reference: 1:715,119
    KJV Translation Count — Total: 2x
    The KJV translates Strong's G4268 in the following manner: foreknowledge (2x).
    Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
    1. foreknowledge
    2. forethought, pre-arrangement.



    So biblically foreknowledge is a pre- arrangement! How do I misdefine this term?



    predestinate:


    Transliteration
    proorizō (Key)
    Pronunciation
    pro-or-id'-zo
    1. to predetermine, decide beforehand
    2. in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
    3. to foreordain, appoint beforehand

    This means to decide or mark ahead of time!


    So I await your expertise in telling me how I have redefined these terms.
And you have done it here with the word foreknowledge. Yes, perhaps the English word "prognosis" comes from the Greek word πρόγνωσις [prognōsis]. But the Greek word does not mean the same thing as the English word "prognosis". The English word "prognosis" means prediction or prognostication. The Greek word simply means to know beforehand. Those are not the same at all.
 

Big Boy Johnson

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Do the Calvinist have their own Bible yet? The Mormons have their own Bible.

No, I think most calvinists are KJV only since it's easier to twist ye olde english


There is no scripture in the Bible that says God predestinates people to heaven or to hell. You believe that there is, but you cannot come up with it. I am amazed of Satan's power to deceive.

There IS in fact scripture that says God has predestined all that
He had foreknowledge of to be conformed to the Image of Jesus

Romans 8:29,30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
 

Robert Pate

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That is not true. Being in Christ is not being free from the law. Being in Christ does not mean we are free to murder, steal, covet, etc., When Paul says that we are not under the law, he is not saying that we do not need to obey the law. He is saying that being in Christ is being free from the condemnation that comes from failure to keep the law. One of the main works of the indwelling Holy Spirit is to help us obey the law. While much of the Law of Moses has been set aside, the moral parts of the law are still intact. Moreover, throughout the NT we read of even more laws moral in nature are presented. Paul, for example, spoke of the law of Christ.

1Co 9:21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

Gal 6:1 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.

Gal 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
There are two places that one can be in the Christianity. 1. Under the law or subject to the law. 2. In Christ. In the judgment if you are found to be under the law or subject to it, you will perish. Living by laws rules or religion means that you are under God's wrath, "Because the law works wrath: for where there is no law there is no transgression" Romans 4:15.

There is no transgression because there is no law, it has been abolished, Ephesians 2:15. This is why Paul said, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes" Romans 10:4. Paul said to the Galatians, and I say to you, "Tell me that you desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?" Galatians 4:21. To be under the law is to be under condemnation.

Christians are not led by laws, rules or religion, they are led by the Holy Spirit. "Howbeit when he the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself (nor will one that is indwelt with the Spirit) but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: for he will show you things to come" John 16:13.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Consider the word foreknowledge or foreknow. The meaning is quite simple. God's foreknowledge is His omniscience applied to the future. It really means nothing more than that.

Now I well understand that a Calvinist like John Gill does not necessarily represent all Calvinism or all Calvinists, yet his discussion on the word foreknow in reference to, say Romans 8:29, does illustrate my point. He writes,

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow,.... The foreknowledge of God here, does not intend his prescience of all things future; by which he foreknows and foretells things to come, and which distinguishes him from all other gods; and is so called, not with respect to himself, with whom all things are present, but with respect to us, and which is eternal, universal, certain, and infallible; for in this sense he foreknows all men, and if this was the meaning here, then all men would be predestinated, conformed to the image of Christ, called by grace, justified and glorified; whereas they are a special people, whom God has foreknown: nor is this foreknowledge to be understood of any provision or foresight of the good works, holiness, faith, and perseverance of men therein, upon which God predestinates them to happiness; since this would make something out of God, and not his good pleasure, the cause of predestination; which was done before, and without any consideration of good or evil, and is entirely owing to the free grace of God, and is the ground and foundation of good works, faith, holiness, and perseverance in them: but this regards the everlasting love of God to his own people, his delight in them, and approbation of them; in this sense he knew them, he foreknew them from everlasting, affectionately loved them, and took infinite delight and pleasure in them; and this is the foundation of their predestination and election, of their conformity to Christ, of their calling, justification, and glorification:

If you follow this, the simple meaning of foreknowledge is precisely what Gill says it is not. The entire discussion here on foreknowledge is one long tirade explaining that God's foreknowledge is not something that God foreknows in the simple sense of knowing it beforehand. Rather Gill says that it really is God's feelings for a preselected group that "he loved, took delight and pleasure in" having actually nothing whatsoever to do with them at all and hence having nothing to do with what He foreknew about them.

I could do this with so much of the Calvinist jargon as it relates to soteriology. I won't bother with that here, but it illustrates my point. He has to do it because the simple straightforward meaning is in direct contradiction to his soteriology.
Well I know not this JOhn Gill, so I cannot speak to what he writes.

However the biblical word "proginosko" we translate as foreknowledge means knowledge through pre planning! It is not God looking down the tunnel of time and seeing what people will do, it is God planning what He will do.

Modern example: You have cancer. You go to a doctor. He takes Xrays ct scans etc. and tells you that the "prognosis" is excellent. Why does he say that?

He knows what he is going to do and how he will cure you. Nothing about you, but everything about him and how He plans to cure you.

That is the biblical word.
 

Ronald Nolette

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And you have done it here with the word foreknowledge. Yes, perhaps the English word "prognosis" comes from the Greek word πρόγνωσις [prognōsis]. But the Greek word does not mean the same thing as the English word "prognosis". The English word "prognosis" means prediction or prognostication. The Greek word simply means to know beforehand. Those are not the same at all.
Wrong again. It is foretelling through knowing. It is not guessing. Yes the English translations have been expanded from the greek word and it is th egreek word (as the NT was written in Greek) that counts! Pro-ginosko" in greek means pre planning. Not taking an action based on another action. As you believe it to mean. Example: You believe God looks down the tunnel of time and sees that you would accept Christ of your own free will. so God foreknows you based on what you do. Just wrong.
 

JBO

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Well I know not this JOhn Gill, so I cannot speak to what he writes.

However the biblical word "proginosko" we translate as foreknowledge means knowledge through pre planning!
You have just proven my point about the Calvinist tendency to alter the definition to coincide with the false doctrine. You are absolutely and completely wrong. God foreknows absolutely everything. He actually pre-plans very little even in those cases that He has pre-planned for. He knew from before creation what I had for lunch today. He did not pre-plan that I would have what I had.
It is not God looking down the tunnel of time and seeing what people will do, it is God planning what He will do.

Modern example: You have cancer. You go to a doctor. He takes Xrays ct scans etc. and tells you that the "prognosis" is excellent. Why does he say that?

He knows what he is going to do and how he will cure you. Nothing about you, but everything about him and how He plans to cure you.

That is the biblical word.
If that doctor doesn't take into account who you are personally, how old you are, whether you are male or female, what other health concerns you have, what your history of cancer and what the rest of your health history is, you had better run, not walk, away from that doctor as fast as you can because he is a lousy doctor.

God's foreknowledge is not based upon what he will or won't do. His foreknowledge simply is. His pre-planning, or predestination if you prefer that term, is in fact based upon His foreknowledge. Peter tells us that in 1 Peter 1-2: "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. "

Peter has rebutted completely your view of things.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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Absolutely and completely false. God foreknows absolutely everything. He actually pre-plans very little even in those cases that He has pre-planned for.
So now you made A CLAIM- NOW SUPPORT IT FROM THE BIBLE INSTEAD OF JUST SPOUTING AN OPINION.

Foreknowledge is also different from omniscience.
 

JBO

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So now you made A CLAIM- NOW SUPPORT IT FROM THE BIBLE INSTEAD OF JUST SPOUTING AN OPINION.

Foreknowledge is also different from omniscience.
Omniscience is past present and future. God's foreknowledge is that aspect of His omniscience as it applies to the future.

And I did support it from the Bible. 1 Peter 1-2 says you are wrong. God's chosen people, His elect, and their predestination are according to His foreknowledge. Actually Romans 8:28-30 says much the same thing in more detail. It begins with those who love God (v.28). That is what God foreknew. It is those who He also predestined. Those He predestined He also called. Those He called He justified. Those He justified He glorified.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Omniscience is past present and future. God's foreknowledge is that aspect of His omniscience as it applies to the future.
I will await the biblical support for this claim of yours.
And I did support it from the Bible. 1 Peter 1-2 says you are wrong. God's chosen people, His elect, and their predestination are according to His foreknowledge. Actually Romans 8:28-30 says much the same thing in more detail. It begins with those who love God (v.28). That is what God foreknew. It is those who He also predestined. Those He predestined He also called. Those He called He justified. Those He justified He glorified.
Well that is according to your 22nd century definition of foreknowledge, but not the definition of foreknowledge at the time of its writing.
 

JBO

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I will await the biblical support for this claim of yours.
That is the definition. But once again, the Calvinist in you has to make up other meanings to make it fit your weird theology.
Well that is according to your 22nd century definition of foreknowledge, but not the definition of foreknowledge at the time of its writing.
I don't actually know what the definition will be in the next century, but in this century and all previous centuries foreknowledge means and has always meant knowledge of the future.
 

Big Boy Johnson

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the Calvinist in you has to make up other meanings to make it fit your weird theology.

And of course this is why talking to calvinists is a waste of time since they move the goal post around to adapt their their preconceived ideas as their handlers have trained them to do.
 

JBO

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And of course this is why talking to calvinists is a waste of time since they move the goal post around to adapt their their preconceived ideas as their handlers have trained them to do.
Yes, it is almost universally a waste of time, but who knows, perhaps it might one day help a brother to see the light.