Built On The Wrong Apostle

[BreadOfLife]

What difference does it make who initiated the discussion on it?

Because YOU implied that I changed the subject to Mary's Perpetual virginity.

At best Mary is a type or shadow of the Church. Like all of the types or shadow they are less complete or perfect than the real thing of which they are types and shadows. If someone takes the best of cameras and takes a picture of your shadow it will still be a far cry from what you are able to see in any good mirror.

When the work is completed in each part of the Church, which is the reality only then it might might it be said that it was undefiled both inside and outside. Sexual intercourse between married spouses does not defile either one of them. Their defilement, if either or both of them are defiled, comes from elsewhere.

Uhhh, no - Mary is the fulfillment - NOT the type.
I have given you at least a half dozen examples f this.

NT fulillments are ALWAYS more glorious and perfect than their OT types.
This is without exception.

 

[amadeus]

Oh, REALLY??

Rev. 14:14
These are those who did not DEFILE themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.

This verse is talking about those who have consecrated themselves to a life of celibacy for God - JUST like Mary.

Is it really? Or is it talking about the people who have not defiled themselves by following church groups [women] other than the single undefiled One?

"My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her." Song of Solomon 6:9

Mary indeed may be one of those spiritually undefiled who make up the Bride of Christ, but it is not something we can or should presume, is it?

There are many churches as you know which include the Catholic, the Presbyterian, the Baptist, the Pentecostal and all of their multitude of children... that is their daughters. Out of all of them comes the One undefiled and it does not speak of particularly those who are physical virgins, although some of those may be included. Mary is still only a type or shadow of the final resulting reality which only began with Jesus. Jesus himself was only the Head. There is also the Body, which consist of more than one person. Mary was at the birth of Jesus only a type or shadow of the reality to come.

Consider also:

"For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." Matt 19:12

Exodua 19:14-15
After Moses had gone down the mountain to the people, he consecrated them, and they washed their clothes. Then he said to the people, “Prepare yourselves for the third day. Abstain from sexual relations.”

Having sexual relations would have made them ceremonially UNCLEAN.
There ARE instances in Scripture where sex is NOT pleasing to God.

You are mixing what was unclean with OT under the law given to Moses with what uncleanness means as a result of what Jesus did.

No one in the OT could be clean until Jesus paid the price to allow them the means to become clean and enter in where no one had been able since Adam and Eve caused by their disobedience the closing of the Way to the Tree of Life. This cleanness is not about the physical washing of anyone's flesh or to the abstention of anyone from sex with their lawful spouse.

 

[amadeus]

Because YOU implied that I changed the subject to Mary's Perpetual virginity.

Uhhh, no - Mary is the fulfillment - NOT the type.
I have given you at least a half dozen examples f this.

NT fulillments are ALWAYS more glorious and perfect than their OT types.
This is without exception.

No, Mary is still just a type of the Body of Christ. She gave birth only to the Head, for the Head, Jesus, was also incomplete until He had overcome his own world of temptations, which he did do before he went to the cross. Jesus went to the cross to open that closed door and to allow us to prepare ourselves to go through it to the Tree of Life so that all of the promises of God could be kept. Jesus was ready after Gethsemene, but we were not. He needed a Body and we are it, if we walk the road he has prepared for us.

Jesus grew and we must grow, that is the new man of us must grow:

"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

 

[bbyrd009]

NT fulillments are ALWAYS more glorious and perfect than their OT types.
This is without exception.

unfortunately IRL observations make that another nail in the coffin for you, seems to me? Now the Church is made into a Whore, just like the "temple virgins" of Artemis,

The Mythology of Artemis, Artemis Temple Ephesus
www.ephesus.us/ephesus/mythology_of_artemis.htm
Being associated with chastity, Artemis at an early age asked her father Zeus to grant her eternalvirginity. Also, all her companions were virgins. Artemis was ...

That the World May Know | Artemis of the Ephesians
Artemis of the Ephesians
Hundreds of eunuch priests, virgin priestesses, and religious prostitutes served ... to the citizens of Ephesus because the temple of Artemis became the world's ...

Ephesus House Of Virgin Mary The Temple Of Artemis ... - Bodrum Tour
www.bodrumtour.com/ephesus-house-of-virgin-mary-the-temple-of-artemis-st-john-b...
THREE POPES VISITED MARY'S HOUSE Paul VI kept his word and after a triumphal entry to Istanbul he came to pay his respects to Virgin Mary in Ephesus, ...

from which the mythology derives. i don't even have to say "imo" here, see; it is plainly derived from Goddess worship;
Mary is turned into Artemis

now i'm even at the point where i grasp why this was an effective means to make Christianity more inclusive in a fracturing Roman Empire, where Artemis worship was so popular; although most Christians are led to judge these ppl as "pagan" and thus "lost" imo that is a pretty myopic pov, especially coming from believers who have no probs worshipping Nehushtan, or i could get more pointed there too.

Ppl worshipped Artemis bc she was the best manifestation of good that they had, and it was Christians who were considered the pagans, and godless. What we are not even talking about here is the role of the State in all this, which imo would be pointless bc you are an institutional believer, right

 

[bbyrd009]

Is it really? Or is it talking about the people who have not defiled themselves by following church groups [women] other than the single undefiled One?

surely much more pertinent

 

[BreadOfLife]

unfortunately IRL observations make that another nail in the coffin for you, seems to me? Now the Church is made into a Whore, just like the "temple virgins" of Artemis,

The Mythology of Artemis, Artemis Temple Ephesus
www.ephesus.us/ephesus/mythology_of_Artemis.htm
Being associated with chastity, Artemis at an early age asked her father Zeus to grant her eternalvirginity. Also, all her companions were virgins. Artemis was ...

That the World May Know | Artemis of the Ephesians
Artemis of the Ephesians
Hundreds of eunuch priests, virgin priestesses, and religious prostitutes served ... to the citizens of Ephesus because the temple of Artemis became the world's ...

Ephesus House Of Virgin Mary The Temple Of Artemis ... - Bodrum Tour
www.bodrumtour.com/ephesus-house-of-virgin-mary-the-temple-of-artemis-st-john-b...
THREE POPES VISITED MARY'S HOUSE Paul VI kept his word and after a triumphal entry to Istanbul he came to pay his respects to Virgin Mary in Ephesus, ...

from which the mythology derives. i don't even have to say "imo" here, see; it is plainly derived from Goddess worship;
Mary is turned into Artemis

now i'm even at the point where i grasp why this was an effective means to make Christianity more inclusive in a fracturing Roman Empire, where Artemis worship was so popular; although most Christians are led to judge these ppl as "pagan" and thus "lost" imo that is a pretty myopic pov, especially coming from believers who have no probs worshipping Nehushtan, or i could get more pointed there too.

Ppl worshipped Artemis bc she was the best manifestation of good that they had, and it was Christians who were considered the pagans, and godless. What we are not even talking about here is the role of the State in all this, which imo would be pointless bc you are an institutional believer, right

Ummmmm, talk about grasping at straws . . .

First of all - the Protoevangelium of James was NOT written while the Roman Empire was on the downslide. It was as strong as ever. Mary has absolutely NOTHING to do with this "Artemis".

Also - I've noticed in every post where you are losing the debate, you usually bring up "Nehushtan worship" completely out-of-context in a pathetic effort to drive the conversation away from your failure. Now you've added this "Artemis" nonsense to the mix.

Artemis, indeed . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, Mary is still just a type of the Body of Christ. She gave birth only to the Head, for the Head, Jesus, was also incomplete until He had overcome his own world of temptations, which he did do before he went to the cross. Jesus went to the cross to open that closed door and to allow us to prepare ourselves to go through it to the Tree of Life so that all of the promises of God could be kept. Jesus was ready after Gethsemene, but we were not. He needed a Body and we are it, if we walk the road he has prepared for us.
Jesus grew and we must grow, that is the new man of us must grow:
"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52
"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

Mary is the fulfillment of the Ark, as I have illustrated with Scripture. There is simply NO escaping this fact - no matter HOW much denial you throw at it.

And - WHO taught you the heretical nonsense that Jesus was not ALWAYS God??

 

[BreadOfLife]

Is it really? Or is it talking about the people who have not defiled themselves by following church groups [women] other than the single undefiled One?

"My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her." Song of Solomon 6:9

Mary indeed may be one of those spiritually undefiled who make up the Bride of Christ, but it is not something we can or should presume, is it?

There are many churches as you know which include the Catholic, the Presbyterian, the Baptist, the Pentecostal and all of their multitude of children... that is their daughters. Out of all of them comes the One undefiled and it does not speak of particularly those who are physical virgins, although some of those may be included. Mary is still only a type or shadow of the final resulting reality which only began with Jesus. Jesus himself was only the Head. There is also the Body, which consist of more than one person. Mary was at the birth of Jesus only a type or shadow of the reality to come.

Consider also:
"For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." Matt 19:12

That's just it. Mary's Perpetual virginity isn't a mere "presumption."
It is a Scriptural fact as well as a fact of Sacred Tradition (2 thess. 2:15).
It matters very little to me whether or not YOU reject Sacred Tradition. I must submit to the God-given Authority of Christ's Church - NOT to you . . .

You are mixing what was unclean with OT under the law given to Moses with what uncleanness means as a result of what Jesus did.

No one in the OT could be clean until Jesus paid the price to allow them the means to become clean and enter in where no one had been able since Adam and Eve caused by their disobedience the closing of the Way to the Tree of Life. This cleanness is not about the physical washing of anyone's flesh or to the abstention of anyone from sex with their lawful spouse.

No - I'm not "mixing" anything with anything.
I am saying plainly that the Word of God doesn't ALWAYS reward sexual relations between a husband and wife.

Unto ALL things there is a season (Eccl. 3:1-8) . . .

 

[amadeus]

Mary is the fulfillment of the Ark, as I have illustrated with Scripture. There is simply NO escaping this fact - no matter HOW much denial you throw at it.

And - WHO taught you the heretical nonsense that Jesus was not ALWAYS God??

You have said nothing except that you are still are exactly where you were before. That is not news, but it brings to mind why Jesus wept.

I said nothing with regard to what I believe about Jesus so you should not be drawing conclusions.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You have said nothing except that you are still are exactly where you were before. That is not news, but it brings to mind why Jesus wept.

I said nothing with regard to what I believe about Jesus so you should not be drawing conclusions.

Jesus was ALWAYS God - and as such, was ALWAYS the Head.
YOU want us to believe that He developed into this - which is flat out heresy.

God is eternal and not constrained by time as WE are.
The Lamb's Book of Life was written BEFORE the foundations of the world - and His sacrifice ETERNAL (Rev. 13:8).

Shame on you for implying something different is true . . .

 

[bbyrd009]

Mary is the fulfillment of the Ark

right, but we aren't trying to get to goddess worship at all lol

everyone who touched Mary had to have died then, right

i mean pls. Let's have a real discussion, "Jesus was an alien" or something, ok?

Virgin Mary arguments can only ever be that, arguments.
as we are demonstrating imo

the best that could happen is that someone reading might get another icon, works meet for ritual here; works meet for repentance never enters this convo, see?

 

[BreadOfLife]

right, but we aren't trying to get to goddess worship at all lol
everyone who touched Mary had to have died then, right
i mean pls. Let's have a real discussion, "Jesus was an alien" or something, ok?

Touched in the "Biblical" sense, yes.

Ezek. 44:2
The LORD said to me, "This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered through it.

Mary's womb is that "gate" foretold in this passage.

 

[bbyrd009]

Touched in the "Biblical" sense, yes.

Ezek. 44:2
The LORD said to me, "This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered through it.

Mary's womb is that "gate" foretold in this passage.

yet is has not brought you to works meet for repentance, but only works meet for ritual, near as i can tell.

 

[amadeus]

That's just it. Mary's Perpetual virginity isn't a mere "presumption."
It is a Scriptural fact as well as a fact of Sacred Tradition (2 thess. 2:15).
It matters very little to me whether or not YOU reject Sacred Tradition. I must submit to the God-given Authority of Christ's Church - NOT to you . . .

Actually I don't reject tradition as I have been taught them by God's authority. The question is of course, what is God's authority? You will it is one thing another guy will say it is something else. This is why I keep on checking back with God on each point I have heard from a man. God always knows. Men on the other hand have at times been untrustworthy even if holding a position given to them by God. Sometimes God called ministers are speaking from their own ways rather than from God's. This is always a reason to proceed with care.

No - I'm not "mixing" anything with anything.
I am saying plainly that the Word of God doesn't ALWAYS reward sexual relations between a husband and wife.

When you are calling it based on the black and white instead of according to the Holy Spirit in the moment, you often will miss it badly. As to reward, I made no mention of reward in that context. I was quoting what Apostle Paul wrote about no defilement. You are saying that his words are at times wrong. Unless you hold the Word of God to be what I do, I would expect you are in error according to your own declaration.

 

[amadeus]

Jesus was ALWAYS God - and as such, was ALWAYS the Head.
YOU want us to believe that He developed into this - which is flat out heresy.

God is eternal and not constrained by time as WE are.
The Lamb's Book of Life was written BEFORE the foundations of the world - and His sacrifice ETERNAL (Rev. 13:8).

Shame on you for implying something different is true . . .

So why was it then that Jesus had to increase "... in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man"[Luke 2:52]?

It was because he needed to become something that he was not yet when he was born to Mary in Bethlehem. He was incomplete and he was IN the world. It was not until overcoming the last obstacle as a man that he was no longer IN the world. Then he was ready to die to take his place as the Head of the Body of Christ, which would consist of overcoming men.

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." John 17:11

But Jesus was in the world before he overcame the world.

"As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world." John 9:5

 

[bbyrd009]

It was because he needed to become something that he was not yet when he was born to Mary in Bethlehem. He was incomplete and he was IN the world. It was not until overcoming the last obstacle as a man that he was no longer IN the world. Then he was ready to die to take his place as the Head of the Body of Christ, which would consist of overcoming men.

never heard this, good points. How might one tempt a Son of Man born of Monogenes and God? If Jesus could not be tempted--as that must imply--then you just have other probs right.

 

[amadeus]

never heard this, good points. How might one tempt a Son of Man born of Monogenes and God? If Jesus could not be tempted--as that must imply--then you just have other probs right.

I believe that Jesus was tempted. He was tempted until he was ready to state that he had overcome the world:

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33

It is in the very next chapter verse 11 quoted above that he says he is no longer IN the world. That would be because the world he overcame was the world he was in up until then. From that point he was no longer in and no longer tempted. I believe that Matt 26:39 at the third time through he finally overcame and was ready for the cross.

"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39

He never sinned but all through his life as a man he was subject to temptation. There in Gethsemene he overcame his last temptation. There would be no more temptations even though he had yet to open the Way for you and me so that it would be possible for us to overcome as he had overcome. The Way was ready to be opened when he had finished his work here:

"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." John 19:30

He had finished his part for as God provided the sacrifice and next the Holy Ghost would be sent. From there it would be up to us.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Actually I don't reject tradition as I have been taught them by God's authority. The question is of course, what is God's authority? You will it is one thing another guy will say it is something else. This is why I keep on checking back with God on each point I have heard from a man. God always knows. Men on the other hand have at times been untrustworthy even if holding a position given to them by God. Sometimes God called ministers are speaking from their own ways rather than from God's. This is always a reason to proceed with care.

Then why don't we simply go to Scripture to see what God says about Authority, shall we??

Matt 16:16-19
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give YOU the keys to the kingdom of heaven. WHATEVER YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."


Matt. 18:15-18
"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the CHURCH. If he refuses to listen even to the CHURCH, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide YOU to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained.”

2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught by US, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT - OR BY a letter from us."

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

There - straight from God's mouth to YOUR ear.
I'd say He is pretty CRYSTAL CLEAR on His Church being the final Authority on earth . . .

NOT sure why YOU can't see this fact of Scripture . . .

When you are calling it based on the black and white instead of according to the Holy Spirit in the moment, you often will miss it badly. As to reward, I made no mention of reward in that context. I was quoting what Apostle Paul wrote about no defilement. You are saying that his words are at times wrong. Unless you hold the Word of God to be what I do, I would expect you are in error according to your own declaration.

Nope - God is NEVER wrong.
Only YOUR interpretations of His Word are wrong.

His Church's interpretations cannot be wrong (John 16:12-15, 1 Tim. 3:15, Eph. 1:22-23) . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

So why was it then that Jesus had to increase "... in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man"[Luke 2:52]?
It was because he needed to become something that he was not yet when he was born to Mary in Bethlehem. He was incomplete and he was IN the world. It was not until overcoming the last obstacle as a man that he was no longer IN the world. Then he was ready to die to take his place as the Head of the Body of Christ, which would consist of overcoming men.

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." John 17:11
But Jesus was in the world before he overcame the world.
"As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world." John 9:5

John 3:30
He must increase, but I must decrease.

John's FOLLOWING - John's MISSION. Those are the things that had to decrease so that Jesus's following and mission could increase.

As for Jesus increasing in wisdom and stature - these things happened to the MAN Jesus. He is FULLY man and FULLY God. God doesn't nee dot increase.

It's really as simple as that . . .

 

[bbyrd009]

This verse is talking about those who have consecrated themselves to a life of celibacy for God - JUST like Mary.

um, except those did not defile themselves with "women" BoL, and there are no male or female in the kingdom, so imo that should be read in the context of "prophets gone a'whoring," which is not about prophets going to hookers. surely. Women is being used as a metaphor, as is celibacy and even eunuch.

Sex is equated with knowing, for anyone having trouble accepting any of the symbolism used above, and wadr we are witnessing the fruit of forcing priests to be sexually celibate right now, aren't we BoL?

so i hope you don't get me wrong here, if you are convicted that Mary was a PV and that you can justify the pov with Scripture imo that is fine with me ok, we even have a name for that sect right. As good a place to be from as any i guess