Biblical Sundial

[tim_from_pa]

This is a subject that I do not expect a lot of input or replies on considering it is a quirk of mine. I take interest in sundials. One of these days I'll find out what the "dial of Ahaz" really was in 2 Kings 20:8-11. There are so-called pictures on the internet what they thought it was. Basically it looked like a wall (i.e. a horizontal gnomon or pointer) that cast shadows onto steps as the elevation of the sun changed.We now know that a gnomon must point parallel to the earth's axis, and a horizontal one only works on the equator (except if such a dial was inclined to your latitude, in which case it would no longer be "horizontal"). However, Israel, Egypt and such nations are about 30º North latitude and such a sundial would give crude time. So, if what they say is true, it would be feasible this is what they used.I take interest in astronomy and mathematics. In my younger days (before computers) I could calculate reasonably well positions of planets (now I'm too lazy!!) For the sundial, it is really a "meridian marker" and there are simple trig calculations to make one. There is one other time correction to explain the variability of the sun, which is called the equation of time. Basically, this is due to the elliptical nature of the earth's orbit because it speeds up and slows down at various times and also its 23.5º tilt. For the mathematically inclined out there, it involves a simple application of Kepler's Law and Spherical trig. BTW, although I minored in mathematics, nobody taught me this. It came intuitively and I unknowingly "rediscovered" spherical trig on my own simply because I needed it to calculate astronomical positions (or..... as they say, necessity is the mother or invention)

 

[Christina]

Interesting topic dont know that anyone has ever brought it up beforethere is another bible verse with a mention of this dialIsa 38:8 Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone downalso here is the hebrew word and its different meaningsma`alah 1) what comes up, thoughts2) step, staira) step, stair

steps (of sundial)c) stories (of heaven)d) ascente) song of ascent1) to the three great pilgrim feasts (Psalm titles)

 

[tim_from_pa]

(kriss;14739)
Interesting topic dont know that anyone has ever brought it up beforethere is another bible verse with a mention of this dialIsa 38:8 Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone downalso here is the hebrew word and its different meaningsma`alah 1) what comes up, thoughts2) step, staira) step, stair

steps (of sundial)c) stories (of heaven)d) ascente) song of ascent1) to the three great pilgrim feasts (Psalm titles)
You are correct in the interpretation given by the Hebrew. It does translate steps. Here is a typical link to what they say about this sundial.http://n-k.org.il/public/english/what/news...005_ye/ahaz.htmNotice that the wall is a horizontal gnomon that casts its shadows onto the stairs which act as markers on the plate of a sundial.Also note the source that they based their opinion on. This is going to be a subject that I will study as time permits. I don't want to just take their word for it since nobody knows. However, from my mathematical knowledge, I think this would have made a "reasonably" accurate dial if this were the case.

 

[Christina]

Interesting thanks for link and Posting this Tim

 

[MickinEngland]

Apart from speculating what the sundial looked like, it's also fascinating to consider exactly HOW God made its shadow go backwards.Did he first stop and then reverse the rotation of the earth?Or did he leave the earth alone but move the sun itself backwards in the sky?Any thoughts?

 

[tim_from_pa]

(MickinEngland;15213)
Apart from speculating what the sundial looked like, it's also fascinating to consider exactly HOW God made its shadow go backwards.Did he first stop and then reverse the rotation of the earth?Or did he leave the earth alone but move the sun itself backwards in the sky?Any thoughts?
IMO, I'll vote that it was the rotation of the earth. To move the sun enough to step it backwards in effect would be to change the position the earth had in its orbit. For example, suppose the sun was in Aires and gets moved to Taurus. It matters not if the sun moved or we moved. The earth would then continue on and then the seasons (and the calendar) would be out of sync. I don't see anywhere in scripture where this happened. But if the rotation was just offset, and the day was lengthened a little, that would only affect the length of the year slightly and probably not enough to make an error in the calendar because the earth-sun position would still be the same.

 

[Wakka]

Hey thanks for this! I'm taking astronomy as soon as school starts.

 

[MickinEngland]

(tim_from_pa;15214)
IMO, I'll vote that it was the rotation of the earth.....
Yes that would be easist..Another thing - I wonder if any ancient astonomers (chinese maybe) observed and recorded the phenomenon and wrote it down in manuscripts somewhere?As for most ordinary people, they probably wouldn't have even noticed shadows going backward, or would they?I wonder how much "ten degrees" really was, inches or feet?

 

[tim_from_pa]

(MickinEngland;15226)
Yes that would be easist..Another thing - I wonder if any ancient astonomers (chinese maybe) observed and recorded the phenomenon and wrote it down in manuscripts somewhere?As for most ordinary people, they probably wouldn't have even noticed shadows going backward, or would they?I wonder how much "ten degrees" really was, inches or feet?
Well, Mick:It's not a question of what is easiest. God could have moved the sun instead had he wanted to. However, to do so would have affected not only the day, but the seasons and calendar. It seems to me by the text that the intention was merely to move the hours and not the calendar.BTW, there is a deeper spiritual lesson here. Had Hezekiah said that going forward ten steps was sufficient, that would have meant that he already accepted his healing by faith. Because he reasoned that it is an easy thing to go forward and wanted it to go back instead, showed that he based his faith on signs instead of accepting that God already done so. True faith should flow as naturally as the dial moving ahead. Very deep indeed.

 

[tim_from_pa]

(Wakka;15223)
Hey thanks for this! I'm taking astronomy as soon as school starts.
Good luck with your astronomy course. I always was interested in astronomy, although my strengths were more in the mathematical and theoretical end of it (as opposed to say, what is the atmospheric composition of Neptune or what missions went to Mars?).Examples of the mathematical slant is this subject of sundials, orbital times, Kepler's Law of planetary motion (I actually proven that for simple cases in high school many years ago), stellar constellations, positions, navigation by the stars, and so forth. (One day I'll have to get into boating on the open sea

)

 

[Wakka]

(tim_from_pa;15235)
Good luck with your astronomy course. I always was interested in astronomy, although my strengths were more in the mathematical and theoretical end of it (as opposed to say, what is the atmospheric composition of Neptune or what missions went to Mars?).Examples of the mathematical slant is this subject of sundials, orbital times, Kepler's Law of planetary motion (I actually proven that for simple cases in high school many years ago), stellar constellations, positions, navigation by the stars, and so forth. (One day I'll have to get into boating on the open sea

)
I'm not too much into mathematics. I struggle to get a B on it. But it may change. I see that getting good grades is getting much easier now. Must be study habits >.>

 

[John]

Unlike in Joshua were we see the sun stood still. there is no mention of this being the case. I think if rotation changed there would have been mention of how the sun moved back,they would have seen it as the sun movingI think it is also possible, that God just commanded the shadow to moveOn the day the Lord gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel:“O sun, stand still over Gibeon,O moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.”Jos 10:13 So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped,till the nation avenged itself on its enemies,as it is written in the Book of Jashar.The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day.

 

[John]

here is an interesting link on the subject www.direct.ca/trinity/orbital.html

 

[MickinEngland]

Incidentally there's a free Spaceflight Simulator for download here, I've been dabbling with it for several years and its first rate -http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/I'd go so far as to say its an almost spiritual experience to lift off from Earth, Moon or Mars and see the whole orb slowly come into view, so realistic that I actually experience a sense of awe and slight disorientation at the majesty of the universe -"Praise to the Lord, to him who rides the ancient skies above,whose power is in the skies." (Psalm 68:33-34)

 

[tim_from_pa]

Thanks for that link to the simulator download, Mick. I'll have to play around with it for awhile to get the feel. I'm not a very good astronaut at this point I fear.

 

[tim_from_pa]

(Wakka;15246)
I'm not too much into mathematics. I struggle to get a B on it. But it may change. I see that getting good grades is getting much easier now. Must be study habits >.>
I take it you are in High School, perhaps your senior year? I would not be overly concerned about the mathematics as I recollect it was not as hard in Astronomy class as in math class! I was just pointing out that the interests in Astronomy I have is more geometric in design rather than knowledge of planetary weather, chemistry or space programs. There are various fields within astronomy itself that one can specialize in. You will get a potpourri of all of them.If in the unlikely circumstance you do run into a math type problem you cannot figure out, and the explanations they give do not make sense, feel free to PM me and ask---- sometimes I have a different way of explaining things that may make more sense. I used to tutor some of these types of things. But I think you'll be OK.

 

[MickinEngland]

(tim_from_pa;15330)
Thanks for that link to the simulator download, Mick. I'll have to play around with it for awhile to get the feel. I'm not a very good astronaut at this point I fear.
Yes its complex, I've only scratched the surface of it myself but I know just enough key-presses and joystick-waggles to enjoy it..

E-mail or PM me if you need help getting going..