Augustine butchered the translation of early scripture, including the word "eonian"

[Patrick1966]

The article is not difficult to read or to understand but it is lengthy and so I will only paste an excerpt rather than all of it.

@lforrest

Eons [Ages] & Eonian [Age-Lasting]

find-truth.com

"Since aion means 'age,' anionos means, properly, 'belonging to an age,' or 'age-long,' and anyone who asserts that it must mean 'endless' defends a position which even Augustine practically abandoned twelve centuries ago."

It is rather unfortunate that only four English translations, the Concordant Literal New Testament [CV], Rotherham's Emphasized Bible [REB], Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott [WED], and Young's Literal Translation [YLT]), uniformly render the words ain and ainion as an age or eon, and as age-during, age-lasting, or eonian [aionian].

 

[Patrick1966]

@St. SteVen
@Chadrho

Please read the entire article. You're welcome. ;)

 

[Jack]

The article is not difficult to read or to understand but it is lengthy and so I will only paste an excerpt rather than all of it.

@lforrest

Eons [Ages] & Eonian [Age-Lasting]

find-truth.com

"Since aion means 'age,' anionos means, properly, 'belonging to an age,' or 'age-long,' and anyone who asserts that it must mean 'endless' defends a position which even Augustine practically abandoned twelve centuries ago."

Nearly all of our Bibles say you're wrong.

It is rather unfortunate that only four English translations, the Concordant Literal New Testament [CV], Rotherham's Emphasized Bible [REB], Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott [WED], and Young's Literal Translation [YLT]), uniformly render the words ain and ainion as an age or eon, and as age-during, age-lasting, or eonian [aionian].

Don't you think Satan would love to have our company "forever and ever" in Hell fire?

Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The same thing Jesus warned us about!

 

[Patrick1966]

Nearly all of our Bibles say you're wrong.

Don't you think Satan would love to have our company "forever and ever" in Hell fire?

Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The same thing Jesus warned us about!

Tell me you didn't read the article without telling me you didn't read the article.

 

[Deborah_]

The article is not difficult to read or to understand but it is lengthy and so I will only paste an excerpt rather than all of it.

@lforrest

Eons [Ages] & Eonian [Age-Lasting]

find-truth.com

"Since aion means 'age,' anionos means, properly, 'belonging to an age,' or 'age-long,' and anyone who asserts that it must mean 'endless' defends a position which even Augustine practically abandoned twelve centuries ago."

It is rather unfortunate that only four English translations, the Concordant Literal New Testament [CV], Rotherham's Emphasized Bible [REB], Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott [WED], and Young's Literal Translation [YLT]), uniformly render the words ain and ainion as an age or eon, and as age-during, age-lasting, or eonian [aionian].

I haven't read the whole article, but it's obvious that the author isn't a linguist or translator. They seem surprised that a single Greek word can have many different English equivalents, when in fact that's not unusual when translating from one language into another. (Try translating the English word "get" into any other language and you'll see what I mean).
Also, the "literal" derivation of a word doesn't equate to its meaning. Word meanings evolve over time, and often end up a very long way from where they started. "Aion" means "age", and yet "Aionion" really does mean "everlasting" or "eternal".

 

[Patrick1966]

I haven't read the whole article, but it's obvious that the author isn't a linguist or translator. They seem surprised that a single Greek word can have many different English equivalents, when in fact that's not unusual when translating from one language into another. (Try translating the English word "get" into any other language and you'll see what I mean).
Also, the "literal" derivation of a word doesn't equate to its meaning. Word meanings evolve over time, and often end up a very long way from where they started. "Aion" means "age", and yet "Aionion" really does mean "everlasting" or "eternal".

Chapter 17 – Translations of Owlam, Aion, and Aionios – Gods Plan for All

Important Time Related Hebrew and Greek Words Most Christians believe in hell because they read verses in their Bibles that support the concept of everlasting punishment in a place called hell. Does the Bible really teach everlasting punishment in hell for unbelievers? Has God truly condemned...

godsplanforall.com

 

[Patrick1966]

...and yet "Aionion" really does mean "everlasting" or "eternal".

Well, if that's true and people are condemned FOREVER then 1 Timothy 4:10, along with a lot of other scripture, is FALSE.

1 Timothy 4:10 esv
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

 

[Deborah_]

Well, if that's true and people are condemned FOREVER then 1 Timothy 4:10, along with a lot of other scripture, is FALSE.

1 Timothy 4:10 esv
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

Ah, I see... this isn't really about getting the translation right. It's about massaging Scripture to make it mean what we want it to mean.

What about all the Scriptures that talk about the destruction of the wicked? They don't all use the word "eternal". And even I Timothy 4:10 makes a distinction between those who believe and those who don't. God's salvation is for all - but only those who trust Him will access it.

 

[Jay Ross]

Ah, I see... this isn't really about getting the translation right. It's about massaging Scripture to make it mean what we want it to mean.

What about all the Scriptures that talk about the destruction of the wicked? They don't all use the word "eternal". And even I Timothy 4:10 makes a distinction between those who believe and those who don't. God's salvation is for all - but only those who trust Him will access it.

This is the second thread where Patrick1966 has presented the same argument.

This is my rebuttal to his claim in another thread started by Patrick: -

Jesus returns, Jesus judges, the good inherit the earth, and the bad are sent to Hell "age-during"​

<Jesus returns, Jesus judges, the good inherit the earth, and the bad are sent to Hell "age-during">

Here it is again: -

It's not my opinion; it's God word. After all, if people go to Hell for eternity then 1 Timothy 4:10 is false, and I know that's not the case.

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

My understanding is that your UR understanding is based on false pretexts. 1 Tim 4:10 is true in that Jesus is the saviour for all people, but the verse then qualifies that, only those, who are believers, will be saved.

Here is the interlinear version of this verse: -

View attachment 31222


Here is what two commentaries tell us: -

View attachment 31223

View attachment 31224

From memory, Ezekiel 18 tells us who will "live" during Eternity and who will experience the Second Death during Eternity. That is to say who will be saved and who will not be saved. Perhaps you have not grasped that all people have the opportunity to repent and live a righteous in Christ, but it is our heart and its desires that will be judged to see if it is also righteous before Christ at the time of the GWTR judgement.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

It seems that it is Patrick1966 who is also butchering the scriptures to suit his version of the Gospel

 

[Patrick1966]

Ah, I see... this isn't really about getting the translation right. It's about massaging Scripture to make it mean what we want it to mean.

...God's salvation is for all - but only those who trust Him will access it.

That's not what Paul said.

we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people,

 

[Patrick1966]

My understanding is that your UR understanding is based on false pretexts. 1 Tim 4:10 is true in that Jesus is the saviour for all people, but the verse then qualifies that, only those, who are believers, will be saved.

No, it does NOT. Paul says that Jesus is the savior of ALL people. Your argument isn't with me, it's with God. You might as well just say that it is God who is "butchering" the gospel.

 

[Patrick1966]

From memory, Ezekiel 18 tells us who will "live" during Eternity and who will experience the Second Death during Eternity. That is to say who will be saved and who will not be saved.

I believe you misunderstand, my brother. Yes, the Bible tells us that people face judgment and the Lake of Fire. That point is NOT in dispute. What is in dispute is whether or not they stay there forever and, clearly, they do NOT.

 

[Patrick1966]

It seems that it is Patrick1966 who is also butchering the scriptures to suit his version of the Gospel

My brother, it's fun and interesting to discuss scripture and our interpretations but let us remain brothers and friends.

 

[Jay Ross]

My brother, it's fun and interesting to discuss scripture and our interpretations but let us remain brothers and friends.

But it is you who has turned away from the Gospel because of your UR theology which is unbiblical. As such we are not, at this present time, Brothers in Christ although we may remain "friendly" towards each other.

 

[Jay Ross]

I believe you misunderstand, my brother. Yes, the Bible tells us that people face judgment and the Lake of Fire. That point is NOT in dispute. What is in dispute is whether or not they stay there forever and, clearly, they do NOT.

Then what is the point of the Gospel if there are no consequences for turning away from God?

 

[Behold]

Well, if that's true and people are condemned FOREVER

All unbelievers, who are not born again, who are alive right now, or who are dead and in hell right now....... are Damned.

See, you end up where the damed go, after you die, because you are damned before you died.

Here is why.
This verse below.... explains that you dont have eternal life if you commit what the verse says damn's you., which is, you died and you dont have Eternal Life that is found "in Christ".
This means you died, you dont have eternal life, and you are now in Hell.
You wont be getting Eternal Life there, because you died without it here on earth, and its on earth that you believe in Jesus who is Eternal life.

Jesus said.>"ALL that believe in me i give unto you Eternal life and you shall never go to Hell (never perish)"""

= You died without Him, or Eternal life., so you WILL PERISH, you WILL go to HELL and you wont leave it till """Hell is cast into the Lake of Fire""
Eternal life is not given in Hell or in the Lake of Fire.

Notice that the verse says that God's Wrath, that is Damnation, REMAINS on you. = Forever.
-

New International Version
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

New Living Translation
And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.”

English Standard Version
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Berean Standard Bible
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

Berean Literal Bible
The one believing in the Son has eternal life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

King James Bible
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

New King James Version
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

New American Standard Bible
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

NASB 1995
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

NASB 1977
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Legacy Standard Bible
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Amplified Bible
He who believes and trusts in the Son and accepts Him [as Savior] has eternal life [that is, already possesses it]; but he who does not believe the Son and chooses to reject Him, [disobeying Him and denying Him as Savior] will not see [eternal] life, but [instead] the wrath of God hangs over him continually.”

 

[Patrick1966]

Then what is the point of the Gospel if there are no consequences for turning away from God?

There is a consequence. Going to Hell is, I imagine, no picnic. We who look to Christ are not in need of the purifying agents of fire and brimstone.

1 John 3:3 esv
And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

Those who reject Christ in this life will also be purified, but they're going to get purified the hard way.

Hebrews 1:3 ESV
He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

God works on us. God molds us. God refines us.

Revelation 19:20 YLT
and the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet who did the signs before him, in which he led astray those who did receive the mark of the beast, and those who did bow before his image; living they were cast -- the two -- to the lake of the fire, that is burning with brimstone

Why is it burning with brimstone? Brimstone is a REFINING agent. I doubt that the Lake of Fire is a literal "fire" nor does it actually have brimstone. Those were analogies with which the authors were familiar as well as people of that era. People sent to the LOF get refined, but it's FAR better to come to Christ in this life and to get purified the nice and easy way.

 

[Patrick1966]

All unbelievers, who are not born again, who are alive right now, or who are dead and in hell right now....... are Damned.

See, you end up where the damed go, after you die, because you are damned before you died.

Here is why.
This verse below.... explains that you dont have eternal life if you commit what the verse says damn's you., which is, you died and you dont have Eternal Life that is found "in Christ".
This means you died, you dont have eternal life, and you are now in Hell.
You wont be getting Eternal Life there, because you died without it here on earth, and its on earth that you believe in Jesus who is Eternal life.
= You died without Him, or Eternal life.
Eternal life is not given in Hell.

Notice that the verse says that God's Wrath, that is Damnation, REMAINS on you. = Forever.
-

New International Version
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

New Living Translation
And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.”

English Standard Version
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Berean Standard Bible
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

Berean Literal Bible
The one believing in the Son has eternal life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

King James Bible
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

New King James Version
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

New American Standard Bible
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

NASB 1995
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

NASB 1977
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Legacy Standard Bible
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Amplified Bible
He who believes and trusts in the Son and accepts Him [as Savior] has eternal life [that is, already possesses it]; but he who does not believe the Son and chooses to reject Him, [disobeying Him and denying Him as Savior] will not see [eternal] life, but [instead] the wrath of God hangs over him continually.”

My brother, that's what I'm trying to tell you, their translations of the word eonian are mistaken. It seems that they are ALL working off of the same, faulty, original, mistranslation.

 

[Behold]

My brother, that's what I'm trying to tell you, their translations of the word eonian are mistaken.

Listen,

God's Wrath REMAINS on you, in Hell, because its on all Christ Rejectors, right now who are Breathing.

John 3:36

This Wrath of God, that is Judgement, Eternal, for your sin of CHRIST REJECTION< "remains on you".... right now, and after you die.
It does not stop.......in Hell, or in the Lake of FIre.
This is the "2nd Death".

New International Version
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

New Living Translation
And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.”

English Standard Version
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Berean Standard Bible
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

Berean Literal Bible
The one believing in the Son has eternal life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

King James Bible
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

[Jay Ross]

We who look to Christ are not in need of the purifying agents of fire and brimstone.

It seems that you are ignoring the fact that everybody goes through the fire to be refined to remove the dross in our lives so that what remains is pure righteousness unto the Lord. For those who are not in Christ at that time, all will be dross and their refining will not reveal any righteousness by which they can be saved.

God does use tribulation and fire to refine His Saints so that they are truly worthy and righteous.