Apostle Paul's Change To The Spirit Body

[Davy]

Do you understand the coming type body of the world to come when Lord Jesus returns?

Do you understand that you will no longer have a flesh type body in that world to come? It will be a body type like the angels in heaven, just as Jesus said in Matthew 22:30.

It will be a body type like Lord Jesus' body once His raised body was 'quickened by The Spirit' (1 Peter 3:18-19; 1 Corinthians 15:44-45; 1 John 3:2).


Listen to Apostle Paul:

1 Cor 15:48-54
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

We will bear that "image of the heavenly"? Does that mean what Lord Jesus said in Matthew 22:30, that those of the resurrection are "as the angels of God in heaven" is meant literally? Yes, it does mean exactly what He said there. It's because the body type for the world to come is that "image of the heavenly", or "spiritual body" type which Paul taught in 1 Cor.15.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

What does Paul mean by that above? Just what he said, that flesh and blood can't inherit the kingdom of God, because a body of corruption (flesh) cannot dwell in the dimension of Spirit; only a spirit type body can.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

All still alive on earth at Christ's future coming, including all the wicked, will be changed to Paul's "spiritual body" type. That also is the body type of the resurrection of the dead according to Paul. It means everyone... whether one has died or is still alive, on the day of Christ's coming, will be given a body of incorruption.

The "spiritual body" is not... a body only for the Just. It is for the unjust also.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Those words in red above are 4 different words in the Greek with 4 different meanings. The body of "corruption" is our flesh body. The body of "incorruption" is Paul's "spiritual body". That "this mortal" reference to about our soul; it is a spiritually dead soul without Faith on Christ Jesus. And that "immortality" is only... for those in Christ, the "first resurrection" and gathered saints on the day of Jesus' future coming.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."
KJV

Have you ever looked back at Isaiah 25 where Paul quoted that, "Death is swallowed up in victory"? In Isaiah it is revealing the above 'change' at the twinkling of an eye will happen to all still alive on earth when Jesus returns, for all nations and peoples it shows the veil of this present world being removed. That... is how Death is swallowed up in victory when Jesus returns! But for the unsaved at Christ's future return, they will still be subject to the "second death" during His 1,000 years reign with His elect, per Rev.20.

I'm not going to do your Bible study homework for you on that Isaiah 25 chapter about death swallowed up in victory being for all nations and peoples. Do your own homework on this, or stay willingly ignorant of it. Your choice.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But for the unsaved at Christ's future return, they will still be subject to the "second death" during His 1,000 years reign with His elect, per Rev.20.

What do you mean by this? The second death is not something that occurs "during His 1,000 years reign with His elect". The second death occurs AFTER the thousand years (and Satan's little season) at the judgment when the unsaved are cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.

Revelation 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Verily]

What do you mean by this? The second death is not something that occurs "during His 1,000 years reign with His elect". The second death occurs AFTER the thousand years (and Satan's little season) at the judgment when the unsaved are cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.

Revelation 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

How do you understand this verse here Spiritual Israelite

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Because it even says here thats where these are already right?

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Edit to highlight what I am pointing to

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How do you understand this verse here Spiritual Israelite

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Because it even says here thats where these are already right?

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Edit to highlight what I am pointing to

I'm an amillennialist, so my understanding is that the devil is cast into the lake of fire shortly after the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. Similar to how death and hell (Hades) are cast into the lake of fire and then after that those whose names are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14-15).

 

[Verily]

I'm an amillennialist, so my understanding is that the devil is cast into the lake of fire shortly after the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. Similar to how death and hell (Hades) are cast into the lake of fire and then after that those whose names are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14-15).

Okay, so when you say here

The second death occurs AFTER the thousand years (and Satan's little season) at the judgment when the unsaved are cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.

You are speaking of Rev 20:15 right?

But what my question is, why wouldnt you see Rev 19:20 (the chapter prior) which shows these two being cast into the lake of fire (which is the second death) also as the second death?

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Wouldn't that be considered the second death for these two since it is the lake of fire there? Or are you just counting it as the second death only when the unsaved get cast in ( even after the devil was cast into the lake of fire) after the beast and false prophet. And counting the second death as being there alone?

Did I even word that correctly? See what I mean though, the lake of fire and the beast and the false prophet being cast into it is before the thousand years are even mentioned. Or are you pretty much* taking this as far as it applies to people, that might be it, not sure.

Because that is shown before the thousand years are even mentioned.

Edit fixed sentence

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Okay, so when you say here

The second death occurs AFTER the thousand years (and Satan's little season) at the judgment when the unsaved are cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.

You are speaking of Rev 20:15 right?

Yes. All of the unsaved experience a first death, which is physical death. But, they also will experience the second death when they are cast into the lake of fire.

But what my question is, why wouldnt you see Rev 19:20 (the chapter prior) which shows these two being cast into the lake of fire (which is the second death) also as the second death?

This depends on whether being cast into the lake of fire itself results in experiencing the second death or if the second death refers specifically to a second death for those who experienced a first death. I'm okay with seeing it either way. If it refers to the act of being cast into the lake of fire then that would mean the beast and false prophet being cast into the lake of fire is a case of experiencing the second death. But, I lean towards thinking that the second death applies specifically to those whose names are not written in the book of life who all experienced a first death and will experience a second death as well.

Do you see Satan being cast into the lake of fire as him experiencing the second death? He never died before, so I'm not sure how he can experience the second death. It seems to be that the second death implies that those who experience it had previously experienced a first death. Do you see death and hell (Hades) being cast into the lake of fire as a case of death and hell (Hades) experiencing the second death?

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Wouldn't that be considered the second death for these two since it is the lake of fire there? Or are you just counting it as the second death only when the unsaved get cast in ( even after the devil was cast into the lake of fire) after the beast and false prophet. And counting the second death as being there alone?

See above. It really depends on how you define the second death. Is it a reference to experiencing a second death after previously experiencing a first death? If so, then I don't see that the second death would apply to the beast, false prophet, Satan, death and hell (Hades). It does say they are cast into the lake of fire, but none of those experiences a first death. But, if being cast into the lake of fire itself is a case of experiencing the second death then the beast and false prophet being cast into the lake of fire would be a case of them experiencing the second death.

Did I even word that correctly? See what I mean though, the lake of fire and the beast and the false prophet being cast into it is before the thousand years are even mentioned. Or are you pretty much* taking this as far as it applies to people, that might be it, not sure.

It doesn't matter if they are said to be cast into the lake of fire before the thousand years is mentioned. That doesn't mean they are cast into the lake of fire before the thousand years. The book of Revelation is not a chronological book from beginning to end. That is most obvious from looking at Revelation 11 and 12 (Jesus was not born and did not ascend to heaven before the seventh trumpet sounds, obviously), but it's not just in those chapters where it goes back and forth in time. I believe there are several parallels or recapitulations in the book that cover the time period between the first and second coming of Christ. I see Revelation 20:9 as occurring when Christ returns, so I see it as being parallel to Revelation 19:11-21.

 

[Verily]

Yes. All of the unsaved experience a first death, which is physical death. But, they also will experience the second death when they are cast into the lake of fire.


This depends on whether being cast into the lake of fire itself results in experiencing the second death or if the second death refers specifically to a second death for those who experienced a first death. I'm okay with seeing it either way. If it refers to the act of being cast into the lake of fire then that would mean the beast and false prophet being cast into the lake of fire is a case of experiencing the second death. But, I lean towards thinking that the second death applies specifically to those whose names are not written in the book of life who all experienced a first death and will experience a second death as well.

Thanks Spiritual Israelite for your thoughtful response. Let me ask you, wouldnt the actual experience of the second death consist of being tormented? Not necessarily that they die? Its called the second death but before any of the unsaved are cast into it they are first delivered out of death and hades and both death and hades gets cast into the Lake of fire first, and then the unsaved follow after that. Thats how I am catching it.

Do you see Satan being cast into the lake of fire as him experiencing the second death? He never died before, so I'm not sure how he can experience the second death.

Wouldnt the experience of the lake of fire be tormented? For example

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

It doesn't seem to indicate they die, death and hades cast into the lake of fire which is the second death but it does not show that there is death (but torment) in it for him.

It seems to be that the second death implies that those who experience it had previously experienced a first death. Do you see death and hell (Hades) being cast into the lake of fire as a case of death and hell (Hades) experiencing the second death?

Well the beast and the false prophet were taken alive and cast into the lake of fire correct? So I am not sure how that always applies, at least not in this case and they go in first chronologically since it tells us

These two are shown to go firstly

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Secondly, the devil (as it shows the beast and false prophet are already there)

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Thirdly, whoever was not found in the book of life

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

See above. It really depends on how you define the second death. Is it a reference to experiencing a second death after previously experiencing a first death? If so, then I don't see that the second death would apply to the beast, false prophet, Satan, death and hell (Hades). It does say they are cast into the lake of fire, but none of those experiences a first death. But, if being cast into the lake of fire itself is a case of experiencing the second death then the beast and false prophet being cast into the lake of fire would be a case of them experiencing the second death.

You would be equating the experience of the second death (or lake of fire) with death (not torment)? If I am understanding you correctly?

It doesn't matter if they are said to be cast into the lake of fire before the thousand years is mentioned. That doesn't mean they are cast into the lake of fire before the thousand years.

Considering the order in the above (where I color coded between red and blue) following these chronologically, is there anything that suggests there is no order between the pictures? Because the devil (or satan) is not cast into the lake of fire until Rev 20:10 and when he arrives it says "where the beast and the false prophet are" (who were cast in before any mention of the thousand years) although Satan is bound and loosed in all that follows until Rev 20:10 where he gets cast into the lake of fire.

The book of Revelation is not a chronological book from beginning to end. That is most obvious from looking at Revelation 11 and 12 (Jesus was not born and did not ascend to heaven before the seventh trumpet sounds, obviously), but it's not just in those chapters where it goes back and forth in time.

I do agree with you on this, but sometimes there is a chronological order too, and I thought the above verses show some evidence of this.

I believe there are several parallels or recapitulations in the book that cover the time period between the first and second coming of Christ. I see Revelation 20:9 as occurring when Christ returns, so I see it as being parallel to Revelation 19:11-21.

Thanks Spiritual Israelite


Edit: typos galore

 

[Davy]

....
But what my question is, why wouldnt you see Rev 19:20 (the chapter prior) which shows these two being cast into the lake of fire (which is the second death) also as the second death?

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Wouldn't that be considered the second death for these two since it is the lake of fire there? Or are you just counting it as the second death only when the unsaved get cast in ( even after the devil was cast into the lake of fire) after the beast and false prophet. And counting the second death as being there alone?
....

Allow me...

One of the requirements of proper Bible study is to allow Bible Scripture to interpret Bible Scripture, right?

That means we cannot try and isolate a verse solely by itself and apply what we think it means, if there exists other relevant Bible Scripture which helps determine its actual intended meaning from God.

Rev 16:12-17
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
KJV

"the dragon" -- we know that is Satan himself, per Rev.12:9.

"the beast" -- since Rev.13 covers the concept of TWO different 'beast' types, this has to either be the kingdom beast of Rev.13:1, or the "another beast" of Rev.13:11. It is the 'kingdom beast', because...

"the false prophet" -- represents the "another beast" of Rev.13:11, a 2nd beast that will come with two horns LIKE a Lamb, but speak as a "dragon" (Satan). That's about the role of the coming Antichrist/false-Messiah.

All 3 of those in that Rev.16:13-14 Scripture work those same "miracles" to deceive those kings, and the whole world, which is a direct link to the working of the "another beast" role of Rev.13:11 forward by the "dragon" (Satan).

In Rev.13:4-8, we are told the whole world will worship... "the dragon", except for those who's names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.


On the day of Jesus' future coming, that "beast" (kingdom) and "false prophet" (role of Antichrist) both... go into the "lake of fire" at the start of Christ's "thousand years" reign, per Rev.19:20.

Notice the "dragon" (Satan himself) does not... go into that "lake of fire" with them yet on that day of Christ's future return.

Another very relevant Scripture which many don't want to consider that affects how to interpret the above Scripture are the verses that reveals that NO flesh-born man is judged to perdition in the future "lake of fire" until AFTER Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20.

The future "lake of fire" destruction at the end of Rev.20 has been prepared only for the devil and his angels so far today, like Jesus showed in Matthew 25:41 and Isaiah 30:31-33 (which there in Isaiah 30 God is using the title of "the Assyrian" to point to the devil, and Tophet as symbolic for that future "lake of fire" at the end of Rev.20).

Not even Judas Iscariot has been judged and sentenced to perish in the future "lake of fire" yet. The real "son of perdition" title belongs to Satan himself, because he and his angels only so far have already been judged and sentenced to perdition in the "lake of fire" at the end of Rev.20. All this MUST... be considered when interpreting the meaning of that Rev.19:20 verse.

The Result:
The "beast" and "false prophet" that are cast into the "lake of fire" at Christ's coming are about ROLES that the "dragon" (Satan) will play. That is why the "dragon" does not go into that "lake of fire" at the time of Christ's coming, but instead gets locked in chains in his pit prison for the 1,000 years per Rev.20.

According to Moses, Lord Jesus was also deemed a Prophet (Deuteronomy 18:15; 18. Thus the "false prophet" role is what the "another beast" is coming to try and play. It will be Satan himself in that "another beast" ROLE. Per the Book of Daniel, the concept of beast kingdoms, and their beast king, is presented. Likewise it will be with the beast kingdom system of Revelation 13 for the end of this world.

The Revelation 17 chapter goes into a bit of detail about the beast king concept, revealing that Satan "the dragon" is linked to all of them. So in Rev.13, which 'beast' is the beast 'king'? That "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward represents the 'beast king' concept. And because Rev.17 defines that role of the 'beast king', then Rev.13 has to be pointing to both of the two different beast types also.

 

[Verily]

Allow me...

One of the requirements of proper Bible study is to allow Bible Scripture to interpret Bible Scripture, right?

That means we cannot try and isolate a verse solely by itself and apply what we think it means, if there exists other relevant Bible Scripture which helps determine its actual intended meaning from God.

Rev 16:12-17
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
KJV

"the dragon" -- we know that is Satan himself, per Rev.12:9.

"the beast" -- since Rev.13 covers the concept of TWO different 'beast' types, this has to either be the kingdom beast of Rev.13:1, or the "another beast" of Rev.13:11. It is the 'kingdom beast', because...

"the false prophet" -- represents the "another beast" of Rev.13:11, a 2nd beast that will come with two horns LIKE a Lamb, but speak as a "dragon" (Satan). That's about the role of the coming Antichrist/false-Messiah.

All 3 of those in that Rev.16:13-14 Scripture work those same "miracles" to deceive those kings, and the whole world, which is a direct link to the working of the "another beast" role of Rev.13:11 forward by the "dragon" (Satan).

In Rev.13:4-8, we are told the whole world will worship... "the dragon", except for those who's names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.


On the day of Jesus' future coming, that "beast" (kingdom) and "false prophet" (role of Antichrist) both... go into the "lake of fire" at the start of Christ's "thousand years" reign, per Rev.19:20.

Notice the "dragon" (Satan himself) does not... go into that "lake of fire" with them yet on that day of Christ's future return.

Another very relevant Scripture which many don't want to consider that affects how to interpret the above Scripture are the verses that reveals that NO flesh-born man is judged to perdition in the future "lake of fire" until AFTER Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20.

The future "lake of fire" destruction at the end of Rev.20 has been prepared only for the devil and his angels so far today, like Jesus showed in Matthew 25:41 and Isaiah 30:31-33 (which there in Isaiah 30 God is using the title of "the Assyrian" to point to the devil, and Tophet as symbolic for that future "lake of fire" at the end of Rev.20).

Not even Judas Iscariot has been judged and sentenced to perish in the future "lake of fire" yet. The real "son of perdition" title belongs to Satan himself, because he and his angels only so far have already been judged and sentenced to perdition in the "lake of fire" at the end of Rev.20. All this MUST... be considered when interpreting the meaning of that Rev.19:20 verse.

The Result:
The "beast" and "false prophet" that are cast into the "lake of fire" at Christ's coming are about ROLES that the "dragon" (Satan) will play. That is why the "dragon" does not go into that "lake of fire" at the time of Christ's coming, but instead gets locked in chains in his pit prison for the 1,000 years per Rev.20.

According to Moses, Lord Jesus was also deemed a Prophet (Deuteronomy 18:15; 18. Thus the "false prophet" role is what the "another beast" is coming to try and play. It will be Satan himself in that "another beast" ROLE. Per the Book of Daniel, the concept of beast kingdoms, and their beast king, is presented. Likewise it will be with the beast kingdom system of Revelation 13 for the end of this world.

The Revelation 17 chapter goes into a bit of detail about the beast king concept, revealing that Satan "the dragon" is linked to all of them. So in Rev.13, which 'beast' is the beast 'king'? That "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward represents the 'beast king' concept. And because Rev.17 defines that role of the 'beast king', then Rev.13 has to be pointing to both of the two different beast types also.

Well thanks for adding your insight as well Davy, are you two on the same page together? You and Spiritual Israelite that is?

In short, if I am understanding you correctly, you believe when the beast and false prophet get cast alive into the lake of fire in Rev19:20 you are saying that these two are "cast in" are the devil's "acting roles" both of which get cast alive into it. And when the devil himself is finally gets cast into the lake of fire in Rev 20:10 the devil is just joining his alive action rolers (who are all really just him) or something along those lines. Never heard it quite put that way, interesting.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Thanks Spiritual Israelite for your thoughtful response. Let me ask you, wouldnt the actual experience of the second death consist of being tormented? Not necessarily that they die? Its called the second death but before any of the unsaved are cast into it they are first delivered out of death and hades and both death and hades gets cast into the Lake of fire first, and then the unsaved follow after that. Thats how I am catching it.

Based on what is written in Revelation 14:9-11 and Revelation 20:10, I would say that it results in being tormented, yes. The word death is not a synonym for annihilation. It means to be separate. When we physically die, our body dies and is separated from our soul and spirit. The second death does not result in the complete end or annihilation of a person. It results in them being separated from God forever.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Wouldnt the experience of the lake of fire be tormented? For example

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

It doesn't seem to indicate they die, death and hades cast into the lake of fire which is the second death but it does not show that there is death (but torment) in it for him.

Yes, that verse makes it clear that being cast into the lake of fire results in being tormented, which is true for human being as well, according to this passage:

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Well the beast and the false prophet were taken alive and cast into the lake of fire correct? So I am not sure how that always applies, at least not in this case and they go in first chronologically since it tells us

These two are shown to go firstly

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Secondly, the devil (as it shows the beast and false prophet are already there)

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Thirdly, whoever was not found in the book of life

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Yes, there is obviously an order to it.

You would be equating the experience of the second death (or lake of fire) with death (not torment)? If I am understanding you correctly?

No, I never said that. It's clear that being cast into the lake of fire, which is called the second death, at least for those who experience a first death, results in torment.

Considering the order in the above (where I color coded between red and blue) following these chronologically, is there anything that suggests there is no order between the pictures? Because the devil (or satan) is not cast into the lake of fire until Rev 20:10 and when he arrives it says "where the beast and the false prophet are" (who were cast in before any mention of the thousand years) although Satan is bound and loosed in all that follows until Rev 20:10 where he gets cast into the lake of fire.

Again, there is an order to it, which is obvious. Are you intending to make any point beyond that?

I do agree with you on this, but sometimes there is a chronological order too, and I thought the above verses show some evidence of this.

That is obvious and I never said otherwise. But, when it comes to the Amil vs. Premil debate, which I'm not sure you are intending to allude to here or not, Amils believe Satan is cast into the lake of fire shortly after the beast and false prophet are while Premils believe Satan is cast into the lake of fire 1,000+ years after the beast and false prophet are.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well thanks for adding your insight as well Davy, are you two on the same page together? You and Spiritual Israelite that is?

Absolutely not. He is a premillennialist so he thinks that Satan is cast into the lake of fire 1,000+ years after the beast and false prophet are. I am an amillennialist and believe that Satan will be cast into the lake of fire shortly after the beast and false prophet are. Then death and hell (Hades) are cast there, followed by those whose names are not written in the book of life.

If you read Matthew 25:31-46, you can see that the time when unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire is when Jesus comes with His angels. When it refers to the goats, which represent unbelievers, as being cast "into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" in Matthew 25:41, that is a reference to the lake of fire and is the same event as described in Revelation 20:15. And Matthew 25:31-46 indicates that it will happen right after the second coming of Christ, not 1,000+ years later. We need to interpret Revelation 20 in such a way that does not contradict other scriptures like Matthew 25:31-46.

 

[Davidpt]

Yes, that verse makes it clear that being cast into the lake of fire results in being tormented, which is true for human being as well, according to this passage:

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

In your world, I guess, there are no other possibilities, only what you have concluded?

You do not think---The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation--is involving the vials of wrath but is involving the LOF during Revelation 20:11-15?

Maybe it's just me, but this--The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation--sounds like the following below, not Revelation 20:11-15.

Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Ezekiel 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground
21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone


And if I am correct that Ezekiel 38:22 involves the 7th vial of wrath, it clearly mentions fire and brimstone, the same thing Revelation 14:10 is involving. And that Revelation 14:10 is involving His presence at the time, and so is Ezekiel 38:20.

Not to mention, Revelation 14:10 involves the Lamb being present at the time. Obviously, He is not going to be present there forever, so what does it mean when He is no longer present, the fact the text indicates they are being tormented in His presence? Nowhere in that text does it say they are not being tormented in His presence. As in, they are being tormented but not in His presence.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In your world, I guess, there are no other possibilities, only what you have concluded?

Is that what I said? No. What is wrong with you? Why do you not ask this of everyone who shares their interpretations? You are offended that I have a strong opinion on something? So do many others here, but I don't see you asking them a question like this. Should I ask you this question every time you share a belief about something?

You do not think---The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation--is involving the vials of wrath but is involving the LOF during Revelation 20:11-15?

No, I don't think that. Are you okay with someone having a different opinion than you or is that just something you can't accept?

Do you not see any similarities in the following passages:

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Each of these passages refer to eternal torment, which is not what the vials of wrath are about. You're not differentiating between physical destruction that comes down on living unbelievers and the eternal torment that Satan, his angels and unbelievers will experience after being cast into the lake of fire.

Maybe it's just me, but this--The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation--sounds like the following below, not Revelation 20:11-15.

Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Ezekiel 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground
21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone


And if I am correct that Ezekiel 38:22 involves the 7th vial of wrath, it clearly mentions fire and brimstone, the same thing Revelation 14:10 is involving. And that Revelation 14:10 is involving His presence at the time, and so is Ezekiel 38:20.

Where is there any reference to being tormented forever in those passages? It's not there because those are talking about physical destruction and not what happens when unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire.

Not to mention, Revelation 14:10 involves the Lamb being present at the time. Obviously, He is not going to be present there forever, so what does it mean when He is no longer present, the fact the text indicates they are being tormented in His presence? Nowhere in that text does it say they are not being tormented in His presence. As in, they are being tormented but not in His presence.

If you read Matthew 25:31-46, you can see that when they are first cast into the lake of fire, which Jesus referred to as "eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41), they would obviously be in His presence at that point. That doesn't mean they are in His presence forever after that. It never says they are in His presence the entire time while "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever" when "they have no rest day nor night".

I think what this is really all about is that you are uncomfortable with the idea of eternal torment, so you are trying to find any way you can to make it so that it isn't true. But, it is. Do you deny that Satan will experience eternal torment in the lake of fire? If not, then why would those whose names are not written in the book of life not experience eternal torment as well? Clearly, it's possible to experience eternal torment there since Revelation 20:10 makes it clear that is what will happen to Satan (and presumably his angels).

 

[Verily]

Thank you for your response @Spiritual Israelite, just a couple of things to better understand where you are coming from

When you said,

It seems to be that the second death implies that those who experience it had previously experienced a first death.

Is why I asked,

You would be equating the experience of the second death (or lake of fire) with death (not torment)? If I am understanding you correctly?

And you replied to this saying,

No, I never said that. It's clear that being cast into the lake of fire, which is called the second death, at least for those who experience a first death, results in torment.

Me responding

Just to clarify, by first death I understand you as talking about physical death, and for these (more specifically) this results in torment

And as you say here

It seems to be that the second death implies that those who experience it had previously experienced a first death.

Me responding,

By saying this do you mean, to experience the second death (as the experience of torment that it is) "all" that get cast into it the lake of fire have to experience a first death/or physical death?

If so, how would this experience differ with the beast, and the false prophet (those cast in alive) and also the devil who also get cast into the lake of fire?

I am assuming you are not excluding these from the experience (of torment) that is in the lake of fire (called the second death). I ask this more specifically because I am not sure how you count the beast and false prophet taken alive and cast in or how you might understand the physical death (or lack thereof) of the devil and how you understand their experience.

You had asked me,

Do you see death and hell (Hades) being cast into the lake of fire as a case of death and hell (Hades) experiencing the second death?

How I am understanding this currently, is that those in death and hell (Hades) are first "delivered out of" them and both these (death and hell/hades) are cast into the lake of fire first, so my question (to myself) is how would death and hell/hades exist any longer (for the dead)? They don't. Obviously that excludes the lake of fire (into which death and hell/hades are cast) along with those not found written in the lamb's book of life.

This verse makes me doubt I understand it clearly would be Rev 20:13

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them

And reason being is why would death and hell/hades (places unseen) that would be cast into the lake of fire be listed alongside of the sea. Which are three places where the dead are found. It appears "unequal" (if i would chose a word).

And Spiritual Israelite, I cannot for the life of me get the quote features to work for me the way I want them to so forgive me. I leave off where I do not have further questions because I usually do not like line by line back and forths on topics like this because I think things can get a little more muddled or confusing to follow (at least it does for me). However, I wanted to understand a little more clearly the difference between the experience of the second death (I think you feel might apply to those who experience a first death/or physical death) as well as that which might not. So could you clarify any difference (if there even is one) since I think we both acknowledge the second death has torment) but not necessarily death itself. I just never heard anyone narrow it down to those who experience the first death only (unless you are simply excluding the beast false prophet and the devil) and speaking more generally as far as humans go (but not necessarily excluding the others). So I had to ask.

I also had one more question on the thousand years and how you come to something, but I can't find what is was I wanted to ask you.

 

[Verily]

Absolutely not. He is a premillennialist so he thinks that Satan is cast into the lake of fire 1,000+ years after the beast and false prophet are. I am an amillennialist and believe that Satan will be cast into the lake of fire shortly after the beast and false prophet are. Then death and hell (Hades) are cast there, followed by those whose names are not written in the book of life.

If you read Matthew 25:31-46, you can see that the time when unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire is when Jesus comes with His angels. When it refers to the goats, which represent unbelievers, as being cast "into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" in Matthew 25:41, that is a reference to the lake of fire and is the same event as described in Revelation 20:15. And Matthew 25:31-46 indicates that it will happen right after the second coming of Christ, not 1,000+ years later. We need to interpret Revelation 20 in such a way that does not contradict other scriptures like Matthew 25:31-46.

Thanks Spiritual Isarelite for those scriptures, and for letting me know. I dont even know the differences between the viewpoints. I dont hang out long enough in these sections to find out because I find following anyone on these topics near impossible, so I typically do not. Once and awhile I'll poke around to see if I run with something somewheres but oftentimes it does not go very far and I am never the wiser for trying.

 

[Davidpt]

Thank you for your response @Spiritual Israelite, just a couple of things to better understand where you are coming from

When you said,

It seems to be that the second death implies that those who experience it had previously experienced a first death.

Is why I asked,

You would be equating the experience of the second death (or lake of fire) with death (not torment)? If I am understanding you correctly?

And you replied to this saying,

No, I never said that. It's clear that being cast into the lake of fire, which is called the second death, at least for those who experience a first death, results in torment.

Me responding

Just to clarify, by first death I understand you as talking about physical death, and for these (more specifically) this results in torment

And as you say here

It seems to be that the second death implies that those who experience it had previously experienced a first death.

Me responding,

By saying this do you mean, to experience the second death (as the experience of torment that it is) "all" that get cast into it the lake of fire have to experience a first death/or physical death?

If so, how would this experience differ with the beast, and the false prophet (those cast in alive) and also the devil who also get cast into the lake of fire?

I am assuming you are not excluding these from the experience (of torment) that is in the lake of fire (called the second death). I ask this more specifically because I am not sure how you count the beast and false prophet taken alive and cast in or how you might understand the physical death (or lack thereof) of the devil and how you understand their experience.

You had asked me,

Do you see death and hell (Hades) being cast into the lake of fire as a case of death and hell (Hades) experiencing the second death?

How I am understanding this currently, is that those in death and hell (Hades) are first "delivered out of" them and both these (death and hell/hades) are cast into the lake of fire first, so my question (to myself) is how would death and hell/hades exist any longer (for the dead)? They don't. Obviously that excludes the lake of fire (into which death and hell/hades are cast) along with those not found written in the lamb's book of life.

This verse makes me doubt I understand it clearly would be Rev 20:13

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them

And reason being is why would death and hell/hades (places unseen) that would be cast into the lake of fire be listed alongside of the sea. Which are three places where the dead are found. It appears "unequal" (if i would chose a word).

And Spiritual Israelite, I cannot for the life of me get the quote features to work for me the way I want them to so forgive me. I leave off where I do not have further questions because I usually do not like line by line back and forths on topics like this because I think things can get a little more muddled or confusing to follow (at least it does for me). However, I wanted to understand a little more clearly the difference between the experience of the second death (I think you feel might apply to those who experience a first death/or physical death) as well as that which might not. So could you clarify any difference (if there even is one) since I think we both acknowledge the second death has torment) but not necessarily death itself. I just never heard anyone narrow it down to those who experience the first death only (unless you are simply excluding the beast false prophet and the devil) and speaking more generally as far as humans go (but not necessarily excluding the others). So I had to ask.

I also had one more question on the thousand years and how you come to something, but I can't find what is was I wanted to ask you.

What I have noted in Revelation 20 is that neither satan nor the beast and fp are standing among the dead being judged in Revelation 20:11-15 because they are already in the LOF. Which then means what Revelation 20:10 is involving is not the same thing Revelation 20:11-15 is involving. They have the LOF in common but their fates are different, IOW.

Let's take satan, for instance. Nowhere in verse 10 does it mention the 2nd death in regards to satan. And it is pretty obvious as to why. In order for there to be a 2nd death there has to be a first death first. Except satan has never died, therefore was obviously created immortal.

Per humans it would look like this in regards to those that experience the 2nd death. First they are born then phyically die at some point. Thus the first death. Then eventually they bodily live again, thus the resurrection from death. Then they are judged then sentenced to the LOF, thus the 2nd death.

What you will not see written anywhere in Revelation 20:11-15 is this---and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. That only applies to those in verse 10 the same way the 2nd death only applies to those in verses 11-15 and not those in verse 10 as well. It is not being consistent if one doesn't apply the 2nd death to those meant in verse 10 but do apply this--and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever--to those in verses 11-15.

If John meant to include these in verses 11-15 he would have said so in those verses by saying the same thing he said in verse 10--and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Except he never said that in verses 11-15 nor did he ever say anything in regards to the 2nd death involving those in verse 10.


The way some try and get around this they have Revelation 14:10 involving Revelation 20:11-15 rather than involving the vials of wrath. IMO, the reason why they have no rest day nor night is because the vials of wrath are being unleashed on them relentlessly. Keeping in mind that there are 7 vials of wrath and that they are poured out over time rather than all of them being poured out in a single day.

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Take note what these 2 verses say. It says they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast--as opposed to this--they have no rest day nor night, who worshiped the beast. Obviously, if they are in the LOF the text would indicate it is because they worshiped the beast, and not--who worship the beast. IOW, they are not worshiping the beast if they are in the LOF and that the beast is in there as well.

Then look what verse 12 records. Does that sound like that fits Revelation 20:11-15? Pretty strange of John to place that verse right after verse 11 if verse 11 is pertaining to being tormented in the LOF during what Revelation 20:11-15 is involving.

 

[Verily]

What I have noted in Revelation 20 is that neither satan nor the beast and fp are standing among the dead being judged in Revelation 20:11-15 because they are already in the LOF. Which then means what Revelation 20:10 is involving is not the same thing Revelation 20:11-15 is involving. They have the LOF in common but their fates are different, IOW.

Let's take satan, for instance. Nowhere in verse 10 does it mention the 2nd death in regards to satan. And it is pretty obvious as to why. In order for there to be a 2nd death there has to be a first death first. Except satan has never died, therefore was obviously created immortal.

Per humans it would look like this in regards to those that experience the 2nd death. First they are born then phyically die at some point. Thus the first death. Then eventually they bodily live again, thus the resurrection from death. Then they are judged then sentenced to the LOF, thus the 2nd death.

What you will not see written anywhere in Revelation 20:11-15 is this---and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. That only applies to those in verse 10 the same way the 2nd death only applies to those in verses 11-15 and not those in verse 10 as well. It is not being consistent if one doesn't apply the 2nd death to those meant in verse 10 but do apply this--and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever--to those in verses 11-15.

If John meant to include these in verses 11-15 he would have said so in those verses by saying the same thing he said in verse 10--and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Except he never said that in verses 11-15 nor did he ever say anything in regards to the 2nd death involving those in verse 10.


The way some try and get around this they have Revelation 14:10 involving Revelation 20:11-15 rather than involving the vials of wrath. IMO, the reason why they have no rest day nor night is because the vials of wrath are being unleashed on them relentlessly. Keeping in mind that there are 7 vials of wrath and that they are poured out over time rather than all of them being poured out in a single day.

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Take note what these 2 verses say. It says they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast--as opposed to this--they have no rest day nor night, who worshiped the beast. Obviously, if they are in the LOF the text would indicate it is because they worshiped the beast, and not--who worship the beast. IOW, they are not worshiping the beast if they are in the LOF and that the beast is in there as well.

Then look what verse 12 records. Does that sound like that fits Revelation 20:11-15? Pretty strange of John to place that verse right after verse 11 if verse 11 is pertaining to being tormented in the LOF during what Revelation 20:11-15 is involving.

You will have to forgive me @Davidpt I have no idea how to follow that.

 

[Davidpt]

You will have to forgive me @Davidpt I have no idea how to follow that.

What is so difficult about following that? You seem to be following @Spiritual Israelite ok but have no idea how to make sense of anything I said? Kind of hurts my feelings and makes me feel like I must be coming off as retarded or something, that it is impossible to follow what I'm meaning. I'm not saying anyone is obligated to agree with me, yet I shouldn't be that hard to follow per that post.

 

[Verily]

What is so difficult about following that? You seem to be following @Spiritual Israelite ok but have no idea how to make sense of anything I said? Kind of hurts my feelings and makes me feel like I must be coming off as retarded or something, that it is impossible to follow what I'm meaning. I'm not saying anyone is obligated to agree with me, yet I shouldn't be that hard to follow per that post.

I asked Spiritual Israelite because he/she is easier for me to sometimes understand. I take it you did not read post #15 before you posted to me?

I said,

Thanks Spiritual Isarelite for those scriptures, and for letting me know. I dont even know the differences between the viewpoints. I dont hang out long enough in these sections to find out because I find following anyone on these topics near impossible, so I typically do not. Once and awhile I'll poke around to see if I run with something somewheres but oftentimes it does not go very far and I am never the wiser for trying.

Notice how I said "I find following ANYONE on these topics near impossible" so I am not singling you out, I just get bombarded with stuff I cant follow and it never ends well, either bickering (or your hurt feelings) and yet I admitted it was me that cannot follow. I dont even do well with just chapter/verses, I dont study eschatology that much to follow it.

 

[Davidpt]

You will have to forgive me @Davidpt I have no idea how to follow that.

I just submitted what I said in post #16 to Chatgpt and asked it to summarize it for me. At least it had no problem following me, lol. Here is how it summarized my post.
-------------------

This poster is engaging with the interpretation of Revelation 20 and making a distinction between the fate of Satan and the fate of the people who are judged in the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). Here's a breakdown of the key points being made:

1. **The Fate of Satan vs. The Beast and False Prophet (FP):**
- Revelation 20:10 mentions Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet being cast into the "lake of fire" (LOF), where they are "tormented day and night forever and ever."
- However, the poster argues that Revelation 20:10 and Revelation 20:11-15 are not talking about the same event or fate. Revelation 20:11-15 describes the judgment of the dead, who are resurrected, judged, and sentenced to the LOF, but Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet are already in the LOF before this judgment happens.

2. **The Second Death:**
- The poster points out that Satan has never died, so he cannot experience a "second death." For humans, the second death follows the pattern of physical death (first death), resurrection, judgment, and then being cast into the LOF (second death).
- Because Satan is considered "immortal" and has never gone through physical death, the second death does not apply to him, which is why it is not mentioned in verse 10 regarding Satan's fate.

3. **Revelation 14:10 and 14:11:**
- Revelation 14:10-11 talks about people who worship the Beast being tormented "day and night forever and ever." The poster suggests that this passage is not referring to those judged in Revelation 20:11-15, but rather to those who worshiped the Beast during the tribulation period (before the final judgment).
- The key distinction is that in Revelation 14:11, it says they "have no rest day or night" for *worshiping* the Beast, indicating a continuous state, whereas in Revelation 20:11-15, the focus is on the judgment and the final sentencing to the LOF.

4. **Contradiction in Applying the Torment to Revelation 20:11-15:**
- The poster argues that if Revelation 20:11-15 was meant to describe the same fate as in Revelation 14:10-11 (eternal torment), it would have used similar language. It points out that Revelation 20:11-15 does not mention tormenting "day and night forever and ever" for those being judged, nor does it mention the second death in relation to Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet in the same way.

5. **Overall Interpretation:**
- The poster’s overall interpretation is that Revelation 20:10 is describing the eternal fate of Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet, which is different from the final judgment of the dead in Revelation 20:11-15. The judgment in Revelation 20:11-15 applies to those who have been resurrected for judgment, not to Satan or the Beast, who are already in the LOF and not subject to the same process.

In essence, the poster is arguing for a nuanced reading of these passages, where different groups (Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet vs. the resurrected dead) experience different outcomes and timelines, even though they share the ultimate fate of being in the lake of fire.