Amillennialism is an obsolete and outdated eschatological fabrication.

[shepherdsword]

Amillennialism is an obsolete and outdated eschatological model. It is a fabrication invented due to the destruction of Israel in 70ad. Scholars were left with nothing to fulfill the remaining prophecies concerning Israel so they invented the church/Israel replacement model. However, with the reemergence of Israel as a nation we see an entity that is totally equipped to fulfill the remaining prophecies concerning Israel. Amil might have been a needed crutch at one time but events that occured in 1948 make the entire dogma an obsolete fabrication.
The fulfillment of this proves it:
Am 9:14-15
"Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel,
And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them;
They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine,
And make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 "I will also plant them on their land,
And they will not again be rooted out from their land
Which I have given them,"
Says the Lord your God.

 

[Davidpt]

Amillennialism is an obsolete and outdated eschatological model. It is a fabrication invented due to the destruction of Israel in 70ad. Scholars were left with nothing to fulfill the remaining prophecies concerning Israel so they invented the church/Israel replacement model. However, with the reemergence of Israel as a nation we see an entity that is totally equipped to fulfill the remaining prophecies concerning Israel. Amil might have been a needed crutch at one time but events that occured in 1948 make the entire dogma an obsolete fabrication.
The fulfillment of this proves it:
Am 9:14-15
"Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel,
And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them;
They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine,
And make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 "I will also plant them on their land,
And they will not again be rooted out from their land
Which I have given them,"
Says the Lord your God.

Actually, the fact they were back in their land when Christ walked the earth, could be the fulfillment of this. Except we know by comparing to what happened in history that it can't be since what happened in 70 AD contradicts what you have underlined in verse 15. And if the first century can't fit, neither can a time before that of the first century fit either since it too would contradict what you have underlined in verse 15. What should this then be telling any person that is not letting any doctrinal bias' get in the way of the truth? Shouldn't it be telling us that we should be looking for a post 70 AD fulfillment in that case?

Maybe some spiritualize that passage for all I know. But how could one make sense out of it by spiritualizing it? Look what the text plainly says concerning this land in question---Which I have given them, Says the Lord your God. He gave them land that is not even literal land geographically located somewhere on this planet? Is that what we are to believe?

But if it is meaning literal land, and surely it is, we are to then believe that what you have underlined in verse 15, that it was already fulfilled ages ago? If true, it then makes God out to be a liar per that part you underlined, since He said---And they will not again be rooted out from their land.

 

[shepherdsword]

Actually, the fact they were back in their land when Christ walked the earth, could be the fulfillment of this. Except we know by comparing to what happened in history that it can't be since what happened in 70 AD contradicts what you have underlined in verse 15. And if the first century can't fit, neither can a time before that of the first century fit either since it too would contradict what you have underlined in verse 15. What should this then be telling any person that is not letting any doctrinal bias' get in the way of the truth? Shouldn't it be telling us they we should be looking for a post 70 AD fulfillment in that case?

Maybe some spiritualize that passage for all I know. But how could one make sense out of it by spiritualizing it? Look what the text plainly says concerning this land in question---Which I have given them, Says the Lord your God. He gave them land that is not even literal land geographically located somewhere on this planet? Is that what we are to believe?

But if it is meaning literal land, and surely it is, we are then to believe that what you have underlined in verse 15, that it was already fulfilled ages ago? If true, it then makes God out to be a liar per that part you underlined, since He said---And they will not again be rooted out from their land.

This verse makes the fulfillment in Jesus' time impossible:
15 "I will also plant them on their land,
And they will not again be rooted out from their land

 

[soberxp]

The Gospel of Mark 10:29
And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,


There is no Israel that hath left lands for my sake, and the gospel's.

(for my sake and the gospel's., no Israel will left the lands).

 

[Davidpt]

This verse makes the fulfillment in Jesus' time impossible:
15 "I will also plant them on their land,
And they will not again be rooted out from their land

Exactly. Which was my point all along. Therefore, unless there is a way to spiritualize that verse and still make sense of it, the only option remaining, 1948 then explains it. That is if we also factor in Ezekiel 38-39 as well. According to those 2 chapters they are first back in their land except God is still hiding His face from them until He executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude first. Then from that point on He is no longer hiding His face from them. Clearly, God's judgment against Gog and his multitude has not happened at any time in history.

 

[shepherdsword]

Exactly. Which was my point all along. Therefore, unless there is a way to spiritualize that verse and still make sense of it, the only option remaining, 1948 then explains it. That is if we also factor in Ezekiel 38-39 as well. According to those 2 chapters they are first back in their land except God is still hiding His face from them until He executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude first. Then from that point on He is no longer hiding His face from them. Clearly, God's judgment against Gog and his multitude has not happened at any time in history.

I guarantee you that a certain "you know who" will jump through hoops, ride balloons and surf with sharks trying to assign some metaphoric reference to it.....LOL

 

[Davidpt]

The Gospel of Mark 10:29
And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,


There is no Israel that hath left lands for my sake, and the gospel's.

(for my sake and the gospel's., no Israel will left the lands).

Unfortunately, I'm uncertain what point you are attempting to make here? Whatever point it is, I guess it went over my head.

 

[soberxp]

Unfortunately, I'm uncertain what point you are attempting to make here? Whatever point it is, I guess it went over my head.

Historically Israel left the promised land because they did not do it for Jesus's sake and the Gospel.

The Gospel of Mark 10:29
And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you,There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children,or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,


There is no Israel that hath left lands for my sake, and the gospel's.

(for my sake and the gospel's, no Israel will left the lands).

Jesus said this about the Israelites and foretold their future.

And if Israel still does not do it for Jesus and the Gospel, what can they do to return to their own land?They still have to face the possibility of losing their land, and they face it every day.

 

[The Light]

The Gospel of Mark 10:29
And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,


There is no Israel that hath left lands for my sake, and the gospel's.

(for my sake and the gospel's., no Israel will left the lands).

Let me try.

The Gospel of Mark 3:25
25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

The house of Israel was divided from the house of Judah. Israel lost their land only to return to the lost that was found after losing a battle that should have never been fought. Fighting a losing battle can lead to all being included in the land. And yet despite this inclusion the battle rages on as a periodic testament to both testaments. Whether old or new, the flag flies over the land dressed in blue. The proof is the truth, bound with the essence of true blue.

(for the house was left desolate, Israel is back in the land)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Amillennialism is an obsolete and outdated eschatological model.

I think you meant to say "Premillennialism".

It is a fabrication invented due to the destruction of Israel in 70ad.

Wrong. Stop being naive. You're talking about Preterism, not Amillennialism. Amillennialism is not based on that event, it is based on the scriptures which teach that Christ began to reign after His resurrection (Matt 28:18), that His followers were made priests at that time (Rev 1:5-6), that Christ spoiled Satan's goods and his house and took the power of death away from him (Matt 12:28-29, Heb 2:14-15), that all of the dead, saved and lost will be judged at the same time (Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29, Acts 24:15) and that all people will be judged at the same time (Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50, Matt 25:31-46).

Scholars were left with nothing to fulfill the remaining prophecies concerning Israel so they invented the church/Israel replacement model.

Total nonsense. Premills do not recognize that there are two Israels, as Paul described in Romans 9:6-8. No one is replaced.

However, with the reemergence of Israel as a nation we see an entity that is totally equipped to fulfill the remaining prophecies concerning Israel.

Premills don't accept that some of the prophecies that they think are for national Israel are for spiritual Israel instead.

Amil might have been a needed crutch at one time but events that occured in 1948 make the entire dogma an obsolete fabrication.

That is complete nonsense. Amillennialism is taught in scripture and no amount of hot air from you can change that.

The fulfillment of this proves it:
Am 9:14-15
"Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel,
And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them;
They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine,
And make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 "I will also plant them on their land,
And they will not again be rooted out from their land
Which I have given them,"
Says the Lord your God.

The fulfillment of that proves nothing as it relates to the Amil vs. Premil debate. Premills ignore the fact that Gentile believers are "fellow heirs" of God's promises to Israel.

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Premils think they understand OT prophecy, but they completely ignore the fact that their interpretations contradict NT scripture and they do not accept how Jesus and the NT authors interpreted OT prophecies.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I guarantee you that a certain "you know who" will jump through hoops, ride balloons and surf with sharks trying to assign some metaphoric reference to it.....LOL

As if the NT authors didn't often do that with OT scripture? I guess you have a problem with how the NT authors interpreted OT scripture as well? Do you accept that the promises made to Abraham and his seed were made to Christ (Galatians 3:16) and those who belong to Christ (Galatians 3:29) or do you think Paul was just jumping through hoops, riding balloons and surfing with sharks while giving that interpretation of God's promises to Abraham and his seed?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Amillennialism is an obsolete and outdated eschatological model. It is a fabrication invented due to the destruction of Israel in 70ad. Scholars were left with nothing to fulfill the remaining prophecies concerning Israel so they invented the church/Israel replacement model. However, with the reemergence of Israel as a nation we see an entity that is totally equipped to fulfill the remaining prophecies concerning Israel. Amil might have been a needed crutch at one time but events that occured in 1948 make the entire dogma an obsolete fabrication.
The fulfillment of this proves it:
Am 9:14-15
"Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel,
And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them;
They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine,
And make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 "I will also plant them on their land,
And they will not again be rooted out from their land
Which I have given them,"
Says the Lord your God.

If Amillennialism is what you say it is, then I'm sure you would have no problem giving me your interpretation of the following passages to show how they can be reconciled with Premillennialism. So, can you please do that?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[marks]

@shepherdsword is right though. There is no contradiction. Only that some thought that Israel would not be back, so they figured out ways to interpret the Bible without Israel, the chosen nation.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

@shepherdsword is right though. There is no contradiction. Only that some thought that Israel would not be back, so they figured out ways to interpret the Bible without Israel, the chosen nation.

Much love!

When Israel was brought back after the Babylonian captivity, who brought them back? It was God, right? And they were repentant and wanted to be back under God's rule, right? What evidence do you have that what happened in 1948 was God's doing? Most of them were not repentant and rejected Christ, so how can you think that God had anything to do with it?

Also, the Israel of God (the church) is God's chosen nation, not the earthly nation of Israel where most of the people there reject Christ.

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

The building built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Jesus Christ as its cornerstone is the church (Ephesians 2:19-22) and the church is the Israel of God and is God's chosen nation.

 

[marks]

. 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

1 Peter 1:1 LITV
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, of Galatia, of Cappadocia, of Asia, and of Bithynia,

To whom did Peter write?

Much love!

PS . . .

God's iron-clad promise to never cast out Israel . . . the children of Jacob:

Jeremiah 31:35-37 LITV
35) So says Jehovah, who gives the sun for a light by day, the laws of the moon, and the stars for a light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar, Jehovah of Hosts is His name.
36) If these ordinances depart from before Me, says Jehovah, the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me forever.
37) So says Jehovah, If the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth below can be searched out, I will also reject all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, declares Jehovah.

PPS . . . if the early commentators had believed this passage, we wouldn't even have this false amillennialism.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

1 Peter 1:1 LITV
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, of Galatia, of Cappadocia, of Asia, and of Bithynia,

To whom did Peter write?

People who were in the church. Did you not read 1 Peter 2:5-9, which I quoted? Peter described them as "lively stones" who were "built up a spiritual house" with Jesus Christ as the cornerstone. How can you not recognize that as a description of the church?

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

God's iron-clad promise to never cast out Israel . . . the children of Jacob:

Jeremiah 31:35-37 LITV
35) So says Jehovah, who gives the sun for a light by day, the laws of the moon, and the stars for a light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar, Jehovah of Hosts is His name.
36) If these ordinances depart from before Me, says Jehovah, the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me forever.
37) So says Jehovah, If the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth below can be searched out, I will also reject all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, declares Jehovah.

Who said that He ever did cast out Israel? Not me. So, who is this directed towards exactly? I accept what Paul taught.

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

PPS . . . if the early commentators had believed this passage, we wouldn't even have this false amillennialism.

Total nonsense. Will you please grow up? It's childish to say that anyone doesn't believe that passage. We all believe it as we understand it. You are not the ultimate authority to decide how that passage should be interpreted. I am an Amillennialist and I believe that passage, but I don't interpret it the way you do. The reason you misinterpret it is the same reason you misinterpret 1 Peter 2:9. Because you don't take context into account and you don't take other scripture into account to make sure you don't interpret it in such a way that contradicts other scripture.

 

[marks]

People who were in the church.

More specifically. Let's not gloss over this now.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

More specifically. Let's not gloss over this now.

Why isn't the church specific enough for you? What more detail do you want? Whether they were Jew or Gentile believers? If so, it was both.

But, let's say it was just Jewish believers in the church that he was addressing as you probably believe. What do you think, that Jewish believers are a chosen nation separate from Gentile believers? How would that line up with scripture saying there is no difference between Jew and Gentile in Christ and that Jew and Gentile believers were brought together as one in the church by the blood of Christ?

Do you think the entity described in 1 Peter 2:5-9 is a different entity than described in Ephesians 2:19-22 despite both being spiritual houses built upon believers with Jesus Christ as the cornerstone?

 

[shepherdsword]

If Amillennialism is what you say it is, then I'm sure you would have no problem giving me your interpretation of the following passages to show how they can be reconciled with Premillennialism. So, can you please do that?

Sure thing brother

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

The destruction is sudden once the judgements begin. Lets look here
Rv 16:15
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

This is between the 6th and 7th vial. The destruction comes suddenly but it is a progression of every increasing judgements that culminate in the coming of the Lord. His coming as a thief doesn't mean what you think it does

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Once again we see your compression of an event that is spanned out over many years. Let's look here:

1 Co 15:23-26
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.(this is the purpose of the millenium)
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Here we see the progression. The elements do not pass away until the kingdom is delivered to the father and he creates the new heaven and new earth.

 

[ewq1938]

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

This day of the Lord, in the next couple verses called the day of God, is not the second coming but a special day God does something BIG, which is the burning of the old Earth and Heaven, and the creation of the NHNE. It happens AFTER the GWTJ. Neither satan nor any of the unsaved exist on the new Earth which means they are all in the LOF before the old is burned and replaced by the new.