A Woman's role within the Body:

[Nancy]

Glad to hear that you are enjoying the group that you are with now.
We tried many here...but we never 'clicked' in any of them.

I agree with your post earlier , that Paul was speaking about the times he was in.
Women on one side and the men sitting on the other...and a woman shouting across to her husband asking a question.

When people insist about women being the inferior part...
I remember that Eve was part of Adam...formed from his rib!!
And it says .." And he called their name Adam"

In the first creation account Gen 1:26-27 the text in the Hebrew says that God created ‘adam’ (which is really just a play on the word ‘adamah’ meaning earth/ground/dust) in His Image. It goes on to say that he created this ‘earth/human being’ or ‘adam’ as both male (zakar) and female (neqebah). So here in the opening chapter of Genesis we have ‘adam’ referring to the entire human race both male and female, not just the male half. :)

Good word! And, the name Adam means "man". And, man is all inclusive of humans in general! Not to mention, there is supposed to be NO gender in Heaven...

 

[VictoryinJesus]

When people insist about women being the inferior part...

Do you believe that is what I’m implying. I hope not, ByGrace. Every part of me fully believes and trust that it is a Honour to be the weaker vessel since it is His power that rest on the weaker vessels. For the longest time I ran from those verses but God has blessed the weaker vessels. Why run from it. Paul said he would speak of his weaknesses. This may sound horrible; my rebellion in the past has been in believing I can do anything better than any man could...when my entire life I couldn’t even fulfill the one role God placed me in as female. It is easy to try to tell someone else how to do something...then it is to do what you were called to do. I need the power of God to fulfill the role as a weaker vessel and to submit. Assuming I can be strong ...I don’t want to assume anymore. But I really do trust that a weaker vessel is a vessel of Honour (His Honour)and not to be sneered at.

 

[bbyrd009]

this doctrine of "women should be silent in Church" has no Witness either, does it?

Paul is using an occasion to speak spiritually to posterity imo, and at the same time hide wisdom from the wise, meaning allow anyone who can hear to see how the passage will be taken literally by some to serve their premises
i'm a guy, i would love nothing better than a Scriptural mandate to shut women up in some dark part of my heart i guess too lol
Adam was not deceived
sin is imputed through Adam

 

[amadeus]

there is some kind of lesson on hearing here, i think.

Most men right now or then won't listen to the things of God coming from men even, right, so while no MAN in that time would listen to a woman about the things about God is true, we can really remove the time factor and the gender factor both i guess?

But God still recognized that ultimately for Him there is to be no difference, even if men... and women too... were treating the whole physical female gender as effectively second class citizens. Even in the OT where we regularly may come across the bias against the women we see types and shadows of God's Way... if we are able to understand them:

Consider Rachel, who long before any women's rights movement of which we are aware, was a Shepherd [or if you prefer, Shepherdess]. She was feeding her father's sheep long before Jesus told Peter to feed his sheep. What is the message with that? A Shepherd is a pastor who has the man's spiritual role as a guardian or caretaker of the sheep.

"And while he yet spake with them, Rachel came with her father's sheep: for she kept them." Gen 29:9

"He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep." John 21:16

The sheep are the congregation which should be the wife or bride of the bridegroom and they [she] are a group of both men and women who are to remain silent while the pastor or other minister is actually sharing God's Word [Jesus is the Word]. Once the practice in our society [in God's?] was strongly frowned upon or even forbidden. Today, there are probably many physical females speaking from the pastor's position. Is it wrong? Not if God called them to that place.

Consider again why it was that Rachel was the shepherd? Perhaps she had no brothers to fill the position so she was given the job. Does it ever happen that the best available person when God needs a pastor happens also to be female?

Does God never call women to be pastors? Who has a revelation that He does not?

"But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." Matt 5:37

 

[amadeus]

Lol Mark, I was speaking in general. And, I do believe there is somewhere in the N.C. that has a woman correcting one of Jesus disciples. Cannot remember where though...

Never mind the NC. Consider the type or shadow in the OT seen in in the OT with Abigail [source of joy], the wife of Nabal [fool or dolt] when she took it upon herself to do for David and his followers what her husband should have done. [I Sam 25].

 

[amadeus]

Do you believe that is what I’m implying. I hope not, ByGrace. Every part of me fully believes and trust that it is a Honour to be the weaker vessel since it is His power that rest on the weaker vessels. For the longest time I ran from those verses but God has blessed the weaker vessels. Why run from it. Paul said he would speak of his weaknesses. This may sound horrible; my rebellion in the past has been in believing I can do anything better than any man could...when my entire life I couldn’t even fulfill the one role God placed me in as female. It is easy to try to tell someone else how to do something...then it is to do what you were called to do. I need the power of God to fulfill the role as a weaker vessel and to submit. Assuming I can be strong ...I don’t want to assume anymore. But I really do trust that a weaker vessel is a vessel of Honour (His Honour)and not to be sneered at.

I may indeed be an honour as you say to be the weaker vessel, but any man who married a good woman was elevated as a result:

"Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD." Prov 18:22

The good thing found is the wife with the Spirit of God leading her as she walks with and supports her man. Without her he would certainly be considerable less.

"And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." Matt 19:4-6

 

[Hidden In Him]

I've been struggling the past couple of days with 1 Corinthians 14:33-35. It doesn't offend like it once did when I first came to Him. "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. [34] Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. [35] And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

First this verse is confusing because, as a woman and wife I am no longer Judged by the law but rather Judged by Christ. For me, the church is not within a building but I fully accept church as anywhere and anytime the body gathers together in His name. Whether it be three or more. So, I am to keep silence when the body gathers and ask my husband at home. Silence always when the body gathers?? That is a lot to ask. Almost, nearly impossible. But Paul seems to say it is profitable to abide in this.

Greetings, Victory.

I was looking through the following thread to see if you had been involved, and I never noticed an entry so maybe you weren't around at the time. But while I don't have the energy to go through the whole thing again, you may appreciate my analysis on the question in Post #174:
Looking for advice: Can women be pastors

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden

 

[Hidden In Him]

Greetings, Victory.

I was looking through the following thread to see if you had been involved, and I never noticed an entry so maybe you weren't around at the time. But while I don't have the energy to go through the whole thing again, you may appreciate my analysis on the question in Post #174:
Looking for advice: Can women be pastors

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden

LoL! Now that I'm proof-reading it, I noticed you posted a "like" to it. Looks like you were reading through that thread at the time after all (oops!).

Never mind, sister. Just wanted to make sure you knew. :)

 

[VictoryinJesus]

LoL! Now that I'm proof-reading it, I noticed you posted a "like" to it. Looks like you were reading through that thread at the time after all (oops!).

Never mind, sister. Just wanted to make sure you knew. :)

I went back and read it again. Thank you for reminding me and I do see your point.

 

[Uisdean]

Has anyone mentioned Priscilla and Aquilla?
Also, consider which church St. Paul was addressing.

If Matthew 18:1-4 and John 13:1-20 set up the heirarchy, then when you apply that to the role of women it may become a little clearer.

What @Hidden In Him said in the other post is very well said. If you did not make the effort to look it up, you should.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I may indeed be an honour as you say to be the weaker vessel, but any man who married a good woman was elevated as a result:

"Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD." Prov 18:22

The good thing found is the wife with the Spirit of God leading her as she walks with and supports her man. Without her he would certainly be considerable less.

"And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." Matt 19:4-6

I do see what you are saying Amadeus.


"Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD." Prov 18:22 To me this verse speaks of Christ as the only one that finds a good wife and obtains favour. Not to deminish the physical marriage but to also consider the spiritual marriage. When Jesus says to one “you have been made whole” maybe The wholeness is one man and one woman: one male and one female: one husband and one wife; joined no longer two but One. As a woman joined with Christ am I not now made whole? Christ in Me and Me in Christ. My physical husband did not make me whole. Being joined to Christ made me whole. I’ve watched women especially the women of the older days and ways being broken in humiliation and submission as the lesser vessel...is this evil? Did God not give us a head start in the race? We must all come down to submission. We must come to Him in humility but the world now tells a woman she must be as strong as the man and lead and embrace strength and position but we are going in the opposite direction by listening to the world. What should be said and encouraged is the man’s need to come down in humiliation as a weaker vessel also so he can enter in and be made whole (One) with Christ: joined (one man and one woman; male and female He created us to be One with Christ). He bore our shame so we could obtain Honour when we bear His shame alongside Him. Pride of either woman or man prevents this. It is through weakness His strength is shown. Should we not call others down in weakness so they can be made strong? I’m not knocking or dismissing the physical marriage and partnership and coming alongside each other as heirs ...but I can not do a thing productive for my husband here if I have not been made whole in Christ. And the same for my husband...he can not lead our household as an spiritual leader until He has submitted and been made whole with Christ. “Seek first the kingdom of Heaven” then God will tell you which way to go. Women have a profound role in do we teach and model weakness is to be despised and rejected; or do we call others (all) down into the lower seats and show there is great gain in submitting in weakness to our Lord.

 

[Enoch111]

Does God never call women to be pastors? Who has a revelation that He does not?

The Bible is God's revelation to mankind. Pastor means shepherd, and the shepherds of the NT churches were elders. AND ALL ELDERS WERE MEN EXCLUSIVELY. And it is the elders who were delegated authority within the churches. Hence the term "bishop"* (used interchangeably for elders)

Strong's Concordance
episkopos: a superintendent, an overseer
Original Word: ἐπίσκοπος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: episkopos
Phonetic Spelling: (ep-is'-kop-os)
Short Definition: overseer, supervisor, ruler
Definition: (used as an official title in civil life), overseer, supervisor, ruler, especially used with reference to the supervising function exercised by an elder or presbyter of a church or congregation.

Women are FORBIDDEN from being elders, pastors, preachers, and teachers, or assuming authority within the churches. So do you not believe God's revelation as written in Scripture?

 

[Episkopos]

The Bible is God's revelation to mankind. Pastor means shepherd, and the shepherds of the NT churches were elders. AND ALL ELDERS WERE MEN EXCLUSIVELY. And it is the elders who were delegated authority within the churches. Hence the term "bishop"* (used interchangeably for elders)

Strong's Concordance
episkopos: a superintendent, an overseer
Original Word: ἐπίσκοπος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: episkopos
Phonetic Spelling: (ep-is'-kop-os)
Short Definition: overseer, supervisor, ruler
Definition: (used as an official title in civil life), overseer, supervisor, ruler, especially used with reference to the supervising function exercised by an elder or presbyter of a church or congregation.

Women are FORBIDDEN from being elders, pastors, preachers, and teachers, or assuming authority within the churches. So do you not believe God's revelation as written in Scripture?

Actually women are also elders. The qualification for an elder is their age. The respect of an elder goes like this....honour the older men as a father...and the older women as a mother.

So there was a respect for elders back in the day.

Now, from among the elders were chosen overseers to moderate in the meetings and generally represent the church. They were to lead by example. So then the one who most exemplified the character of Jesus...and had all the other qualifications....was recognized as the overseer. This post in the local church was for a man who was honourable in his own household.

A deacon was a servant of the church. While this was mainly given to men...Phoebe was an example of a deaconness.

In any given city there were overseers over the different fellowships...that would come together to pray and see to things.

But very soon, an overseer was appointed over a city.

Ignatius became bishop of Antioch...in John's lifetime as was apparently John's disciple. Later on Polycarp was made bishop of Smyrna. He also was a disciple of John.

But in the local assemblies the women were still respected as elders if that had attained that age.....and maturity.

There were exceptions of course.

 

[Enoch111]

Actually women are also elders. The qualification for an elder is their age. The respect of an elder goes like this....honour the older men as a father...and the older women as a mother.

Don't try to confuse people about this matter and contradict the Bible. Older women are NOT elders within the church. Only elders (holding the office of bishop) were given authority.

1 TIMOTHY 2
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer [allow] not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Why is it that Christians try to constantly to undermine the Scriptures? And who is behind the undermining of Scripture?

 

[amadeus]

I do see what you are saying Amadeus.


"Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD." Prov 18:22 To me this verse speaks of Christ as the only one that finds a good wife and obtains favour.

Anyone who claims to be part of the Church, but is not in submission to the Bridegroom even if he it is a physical male is missing the boat... is missing being a part of the whole Body of Christ.

Not to deminish the physical marriage but to also consider the spiritual marriage. When Jesus says to one “you have been made whole” maybe The wholeness is one man and one woman: one male and one female: one husband and one wife; joined no longer two but One.

Yes, the physical married couple also should act properly toward each other, and if both do it will be a great marriage. The marriage where only one of them has properly connected with Jesus will be a more difficult situation. According to my own witness it has usually been the woman serving God while her husband has been serving the world. The historical background likely has much to do with that.

As a woman joined with Christ am I not now made whole? Christ in Me and Me in Christ.

Amen! In this I agree 100%.

My physical husband did not make me whole. Being joined to Christ made me whole. I’ve watched women especially the women of the older days and ways being broken in humiliation and submission as the lesser vessel...is this evil?

Indeed any person taking advantage of his or her strength to overwhelm and oppress the other part of the marriage is working evil. I won't relate the details of how bad my own marriage was until God got hold of both of us. But we were and are blessed because from the time He called us to Him we each always had a partner striving toward the same goal. Sometimes we still butted heads badly but God saw us through those rough times. [46 years of marriage and continuing]

Did God not give us a head start in the race? We must all come down to submission. We must come to Him in humility but the world now tells a woman she must be as strong as the man and lead and embrace strength and position but we are going in the opposite direction by listening to the world.

People go from one extreme to the other in the world, but both ways in this case are wrong. All of us, male and female, must submit to God. The scales on a physical basis were seemingly long tilted toward the male. Now, the scales are moving in favor of the female. In a sense we might say that that is good, but what is really "good" is God alone. For the male and the female to both be really good, both of them must really be surrendered to the only one that is good: God. When people try to define this without being led by the Holy Spirit they will certainly be wrong. Unfortunately, some people who say they have the Holy Spirit, do not, and some who have received the Holy Spirit have not learned to be led by that Spirit.

What should be said and encouraged is the man’s need to come down in humiliation as a weaker vessel also so he can enter in and be made whole (One) with Christ: joined (one man and one woman; male and female He created us to be One with Christ).

Yes, this need on the part of the male to admit to being or to become a weaker vessel may be beyond some. God can do it but the man must allow Him to do it.

Now, the world is trying to get women create in themselves the same kind of problem that men already had. The world's solution is no solution for God's people.

He bore our shame so we could obtain Honour when we bear His shame alongside Him. Pride of either woman or man prevents this. It is through weakness His strength is shown.

Amen!
As some Christians may seem to begin to get past the first two obstacles, the third one is found to be perhaps the worst of all:

"For all that is in the world, [1] the lust of the flesh, and [2] the lust of the eyes, and [3] the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16

Should we not call others down in weakness so they can be made strong? I’m not knocking or dismissing the physical marriage and partnership and coming alongside each other as heirs ...but I can not do a thing productive for my husband here if I have not been made whole in Christ. And the same for my husband...he can not lead our household as an spiritual leader until He has submitted and been made whole with Christ.

Amen!

“Seek first the kingdom of Heaven” then God will tell you which way to go. Women have a profound role in do we teach and model weakness is to be despised and rejected; or do we call others (all) down into the lower seats and show there is great gain in submitting in weakness to our Lord.

Each person [male or female] must hear His voice and follow Him. If we have trouble with this and are sincere we may have to return to the "lowest room" [lowest seats] and let ourselves be elevated by God, if God chooses to elevate us. We cannot lift ourselves. That is what the builders of the tower of Babel tried to do. It was wrong then and it is still wrong now.

 

[amadeus]

The Bible is God's revelation to mankind. Pastor means shepherd, and the shepherds of the NT churches were elders. AND ALL ELDERS WERE MEN EXCLUSIVELY. And it is the elders who were delegated authority within the churches. Hence the term "bishop"* (used interchangeably for elders)

Strong's Concordance
episkopos: a superintendent, an overseer
Original Word: ἐπίσκοπος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: episkopos
Phonetic Spelling: (ep-is'-kop-os)
Short Definition: overseer, supervisor, ruler
Definition: (used as an official title in civil life), overseer, supervisor, ruler, especially used with reference to the supervising function exercised by an elder or presbyter of a church or congregation.

Women are FORBIDDEN from being elders, pastors, preachers, and teachers, or assuming authority within the churches. So do you not believe God's revelation as written in Scripture?

What verse in the NT specifically forbids them? Are you dictating what God can and cannot do or are you drawing final conclusions from what you have seen as often being the practice?

But then again as to the revelation in written scriptures, the Bible was written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit. The interpretation of that which was written under inspiration comes only as the reader or hearer is inspired by the same Holy Spirit. This is why sincere atheists fail to understand the written Bible. Believers also misunderstand what is written when they follow the lead of men rather than the Holy Spirit. Perhaps seeing this we can also see why there is a multitude of denominations or church groups with conflicting beliefs based on the same scriptures.

The apostle Paul did warn against quenching the Holy Spirit.

 

[Episkopos]

Don't try to confuse people about this matter and contradict the Bible. Older women are NOT elders within the church. Only elders (holding the office of bishop) were given authority.

1 TIMOTHY 2
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer [allow] not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Why is it that Christians try to constantly to undermine the Scriptures? And who is behind the undermining of Scripture?

You are bringing confusion here. An elder is an older person. It has to do with age and experience.

An overseer or deacon is a FUNCTION in the service of God and His church.

I guess it is easy to mix up a condition and a function.

But the bible is quite clear. ALL overseers are elders...but not all elders are overseers.

The other sources are the writings of the early church fathers...the bishops...who were such when John the apostle was still living.

In a few short years the role of the bishop in a city became standard fare.

A bishop served with other elders on a council. The bishop presided as a "first among equals"....like the speaker of the house in the parliamentary system.

Have you read Ignatius, Polycarp, or Clement? It gives some insight into what took place immediately after Paul's ministry...and even during it...

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I won't relate the details of how bad my own marriage was until God got hold of both of us. But we were and are blessed because from the time He called us to Him we each always had a partner striving toward the same goal. Sometimes we still butted heads badly but God saw us through those rough times. [46 years of marriage and continuing]

Same here. Our marriage has been far from perfect and we still butt heads. Hopefully we are also headed toward the same goal.

 

[Vexatious]

"And while he yet spake with them, Rachel came with her father's sheep: for she kept them." Gen 29:9

Because Rachel had a chore of tending sheep for her dad, the Bible approves of women in the office of pastor over men?

Today, there are probably many physical females speaking from the pastor's position. Is it wrong? Not if God called them to that place.

God didn't call them. They are in rebellion against God.

Consider again why it was that Rachel was the shepherd? Perhaps she had no brothers to fill the position so she was given the job. Does it ever happen that the best available person when God needs a pastor happens also to be female?

Rachel tended sheep because her dad raised sheep and back in the day, all the children dug in to help with the family business. Tending sheep is one of the least physically demanding jobs on a ranch. Assuming she tended sheep because she had no brothers to do it, we have no shortage of men to preach in churches (granted, good preachers are few and far between, men who know the Bible and are willing to boldly speak the truth, rather than teaching nonsense and delivering fluff sermons or teaching nonsense).

Does God never call women to be pastors? Who has a revelation that He does not?

"But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." Matt 5:37

Yes, I have a revelation that God does not call women to be pastors. "Women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says... If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord

 

[amadeus]

Because Rachel had a chore of tending sheep for her dad, the Bible approves of women in the office of pastor over men?

Don't put words in my mouth. God may have called many more men than women in the OT, but there is no doubt that He also called women for His reasons at His times. You seem to be familiar with the scriptures so I leave it to you...

God didn't call them. They are in rebellion against God.

That is a comprehensive and negative statement which I seriously doubt.

Among the male pastors I have known more than one was either not called at all of was not working as he should in his calling as I see it. I would really be surprised to find that not a single woman has been really called by God to minister to people today.

When God called me and my wife it was through a woman evangelist. She was not a pastor, but she was certainly working well in her calling. My wife and I were moved up from there.

Rachel tended sheep because her dad raised sheep and back in the day, all the children dug in to help with the family business. Tending sheep is one of the least physically demanding jobs on a ranch. Assuming she tended sheep because she had no brothers to do it, we have no shortage of men to preach in churches (granted, good preachers are few and far between, men who know the Bible and are willing to boldly speak the truth, rather than teaching nonsense and delivering fluff sermons or teaching nonsense).

You seem dead set against God calling any women at all. I do disagree, but you must go with what you believe.

Yes, I have a revelation that God does not call women to be pastors. "Women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says... If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord

We have a different understanding on the meaning of those words:

"I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." I Cor 3:6-7