A response to the false doctrine of eternal conscious torment (ECT)

[Ronald Nolette]

A house divided, will not stand= 40,000 trinity based religions-- If you refuse to believe this its you denying the word of God--A true mark of the 1 single religion that has Jesus= 1 Cor 1:10--Unity of thought( all of Gods 1 truth) No division. your 40,000 religionssssssss cant seem to understand that simple bible milk.

I would love to see where you get 40,000 denominations.

I guess then you better start practicing the form of Christian/Judaism that the original apostles practiced other wise you are not in unity with the physical founders of the one true religion.

Simple fact is Paul was making an appeal to think the same in the major doctrines. IN Romans Paul showed their is much liberty in non specific areas- like celebrating certain days in honor of th eLord, which day to have services, etc,etc. BTW they are not my religions, I haven't founded a single religion.

 

[keithr]

Maybe you should harmonize and accept Gods Word instead of the Watchtower!

Why mention the Watchtower? I don't think Jehovah's Witnesses teach what I have been writing (and I am not, nor have ever been, a JW).

Only God has inherent immortality. that means only God is eternal with no beginning and no end. Any thing he created He bestows immortality if He chooses. and He did so for angels and all mankind. Our bodies die (and we will be restored to them later) but our souls and spirits continue on for God made them immortal!

Being immortal doesn't mean that you have no beginning, just that you will have no end. Christians are to become immortal, but all of them/us have a beginning. The Sciptures does not record God giving immortality to anyone, including angels. It only promises that Christians will be made immortal in the first resurrection.

Paul clearly teaches that Christians will be resurrected with a completely different body. We are not restored to our old flesh and bones bodies. 1 Corinthians 15:37-38 (WEB):

(37) That which you sow, you don’t sow the body that will be, but a bare grain, maybe of wheat, or of some other kind.​

(38) But God gives it a body even as it pleased him, and to each seed a body of its own.​

(44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is also a spiritual body.​

If Jesus said angels do not die- then angels do not die!

Jesus didn't say angels do not die. According to Luke 20:36 Jesus said that those whore are resurrected can not die:

Luke 20:35-36 (WEB):

(35) But those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage.​

(36) For they can’t die any more, for they are like the angels, and are children of God, being children of the resurrection.​

They can't die because they are children of God, like the angels, and at that time all death will have ceased - Luke 20:35 (WEB):

(35) But those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage.​

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Well the Codex Sinaiticus doesn't have Revelation verse 5 at all. It says (from Codex Sinaiticus):

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and the power of judging was given to them; and I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God; and of those who had not worshiped the beast, nor his image, and had not received his mark on their forehead, nor on their hand; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.5 [no verse]6 Blessed and holy is he that has part in this first resurrection; over such the second death has no power; but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So that means they skipped a verse in writing the codex.

From Textual criticism:

In order to answer such a question, we must first put away our theological preferences, whether pre-, post-, or amillennial. Only then can we objectively consider the textual evidence:

According to the NA-28 apparatus, the first half of the verse is missing in codex Sinaiticus, the byzantine manuscripts, and to a few much less significant manuscripts. Therefore the first half of the verse is present in all early papyri except one. Though codex Sinaiticus weighs heavily when it agrees with codex Vaticanus, that is not the case here. Besides, though Sinaiticus is considered an reliable text in the gospels and Acts, it is of notoriously poor quality in Revelation: several papyri and even some miniscules are considered better witnesses to Revelation. Thus, unless one considers the majority text a better witness than the early manuscripts (since even the Textus Receptus includes v5a), one is forced to conclude that the passage is most likely original. No internal evidence disagrees, as far as I know

But I don't think Rev 20:5a does any serious damage to any eschatology: what v5a says is already clear from the context, so I don't think anyone of any theology would benefit from removing it.

New Testament Manuscript Witnesses

Revelation suffers from a paucity of available manuscripts. Altogether only 15 "witnesses of the first order" are available for the book, 14 "witnesses of the second order", and no "frequently cited witnesses" or "occasionally cited witnesses". By comparison, there are close to 100 witnesses of the first and second order for the Gospel of Matthew.

Further not all witnesses contain Revelation 20:5. Of the witnesses of first order, only four manuscripts contain the verse:

• Codex Sinaiticus - c. 330-360; origin St. Catherine's Monastery, Sinai
• Codex Alexandrinus - c. 400-440; origin uncertain, probably Egypt
• Codex Ephraimi - 6th c.; probably Egyptian origin, brought to Florence after the fall of Constantinople in 1453
• Codex Athous Pantokratoros - aka "Uncial 051" - 10th c.; currently at Mt. Athos Greece, where it likely was first transcribed

The committee also considers the majority reading in all available manuscripts (witnesses of first and second order, in the case of Revelation) as itself comprising a witness of first order.

Don't forget that most of Revelation is symbolic and not literal. The beast that is mentioned, referring back to chapter 13, is generally not considered to be an actual beast, but symbolic of governments, powers, the Roman empire, papacy, Islam, etc. (chapter 17 explains that it represents kings or kingdoms over a long time period - it's not referring to the period of the great tribluation). Likewise the beheaded souls, mentioned in the same sentence, (what does a soul look like, and does it have a head? and very few Chirstians have been beheaded) are not literally beheaded - it is a figure of speech. It means that Christians must not be self-willed, they must be "headless" and do God's will and testify of Jesus and God's word, that they should lay down their lives in the service and defense of the truth. As the apostle Paul said,
"I die daily" (1 Corinthians 15:31).

I believe verse four is referring to the resurrected Church, who reign with Jesus and are represented as elders sitting on thrones and wearing crowns (reigning as kings), whereas John didn't know who the tribulation saints were and had to be told by an elder (a member of the resurrected Church). They are not said to sit on thrones but merely to be "before the throne of God, they serve him day and night in his temple" (Revelation 7:15).

Well the beast is a man not just ephemeral non tangible thing like govt.

and even the symbolisms in Rev. have literal meaning. but many use that as an excuse to reinterpret passages that are literal.

You can believe what you wish. but if you believe anything other than what is defined in Rev. 20:4 you are adding to or taking away from teh Bible. Teh definition of who is involved in teh first resurrection is very very specific as to who. Why would you feel the need to add to a specific definition???????????????

Christians are the first to be resurrected - their resurrection is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:6 is talking about the first resurrection.

Chirstians were already resurrected at the rapture which occurs some year's before REv. 20 plays out.

There is no mention of the tribulation either!

Because there is no need to mention it. also no mention of Adam and Eve! Your point in this irrelevant statement is???

 

[keithr]

Because there is no need to mention it. also no mention of Adam and Eve! Your point in this irrelevant statement is???

You said that verses 4 & 6 are referring to tribulation saints, and that there is "No mention of the rapture or church saints", so I said there is no mention of the tribulation saints either!

 

[Keiw]

I would love to see where you get 40,000 denominations.

I guess then you better start practicing the form of Christian/Judaism that the original apostles practiced other wise you are not in unity with the physical founders of the one true religion.

Simple fact is Paul was making an appeal to think the same in the major doctrines. IN Romans Paul showed their is much liberty in non specific areas- like celebrating certain days in honor of th eLord, which day to have services, etc,etc. BTW they are not my religions, I haven't founded a single religion.

That # has no bearing-2 is a divided house--its the matter of the house being divided that matters.

 

[keithr]

Well the beast is a man not just ephemeral non tangible thing like govt.

Why do you think "the beast" is a man? There is no mention of a man in the description - Revelation 13 (WEB):

(1) Then I stood on the sand of the sea. I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads. On his horns were ten crowns, and on his heads, blasphemous names.​

(2) The beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.​

I don't know of any men who look like a leopard that has seven heads, ten horns, feet like a bear, and just one mouth that's like a lion's mouth.

You might think it is not symbolic of a "non tangible thing like govt", but chapter 17 also talks of a seven headed ten horned beast, and the angel explains that the seven heads and the ten heads are symbolic of kings and kingdoms (governments) - Revelation 17 (WEB):

(1) One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here. I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who sits on many waters,​

(2) with whom the kings of the earth committed sexual immorality; and those who dwell in the earth were made drunken with the wine of her sexual immorality.”​

(3) He carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet-colored beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns.​

(4) The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of the sexual immorality of the earth.​

(5) And on her forehead a name was written, “MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.”​

(6) I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered with great amazement.​

(7) The angel said to me, “Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.​

(8) The beast that you saw was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss and to go into destruction. Those who dwell on the earth and whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see that the beast was, and is not, and shall be present.​

(9) Here is the mind that has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.​

(10) They are seven kings. Five have fallen, the one is, the other has not yet come. When he comes, he must continue a little while.​

(11) The beast that was, and is not, is himself also an eighth, and is of the seven; and he goes to destruction.​

(12) The ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority as kings, with the beast, for one hour.​

(13) These have one mind, and they give their power and authority to the beast.​

(14) These will war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings, and those who are with him are called chosen and faithful.”​

(15) He said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and languages.​

(16) The ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the prostitute, will make her desolate, will strip her naked, will eat her flesh, and will burn her utterly with fire.​

(17) For God has put in their hearts to do what he has in mind, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God should be accomplished.​

(18) The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.”​

So the book, which you think is clear and unambiguous, says that the woman who sits on many waters also sits on the beast and on seven mountains (she must have a large backside). She holds a gold cup that is somehow full of "abominations and the impurities of the sexual immorality of the earth" and she drinks the blood of Christians. The waters are actually people, nations and languages. The seven mountains that the woman sits on are in fact seven men who are kings, five of which are dead, one is currently alive, and the other is to come in the future. The ten horns are also kings of the future who will go to war against Jesus. Oh, and the woman is not actually a woman - she is a city, a city that reigns over kings! And the beast, which is 17 kings, is also a king, one of the seven kings. That is so clear, and obviously the beast is a man!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You said that verses 4 & 6 are referring to tribulation saints, and that there is "No mention of the rapture or church saints", so I said there is no mention of the tribulation saints either!

Yes it does mention the trib saints as they are the only ones who can be beheaded for not worshiping the beast or taking his mark.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That # has no bearing-2 is a divided house--its the matter of the house being divided that matters.

But you are looking only at the external denominations. The people of God are found in all denominations and for the important issues they are in agreement.

Even the first century church was deeply divided. There was the Jewish wing and the Gentile wing and the contention between the two got very heated at times.

Even the Watchtower has had splits in it!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Why do you think "the beast" is a man? There is no mention of a man in the description - Revelation 13 (WEB):

(1) Then I stood on the sand of the sea. I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads. On his horns were ten crowns, and on his heads, blasphemous names.​

(2) The beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.​

I don't know of any men who look like a leopard that has seven heads, ten horns, feet like a bear, and just one mouth that's like a lion's mouth.

You might think it is not symbolic of a "non tangible thing like govt", but chapter 17 also talks of a seven headed ten horned beast, and the angel explains that the seven heads and the ten heads are symbolic of kings and kingdoms (governments) - Revelation 17 (WEB):

(1) One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here. I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who sits on many waters,​

(2) with whom the kings of the earth committed sexual immorality; and those who dwell in the earth were made drunken with the wine of her sexual immorality.”​

(3) He carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet-colored beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns.​

(4) The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of the sexual immorality of the earth.​

(5) And on her forehead a name was written, “MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.”​

(6) I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered with great amazement.​

(7) The angel said to me, “Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.​

(8) The beast that you saw was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss and to go into destruction. Those who dwell on the earth and whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see that the beast was, and is not, and shall be present.​

(9) Here is the mind that has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.​

(10) They are seven kings. Five have fallen, the one is, the other has not yet come. When he comes, he must continue a little while.​

(11) The beast that was, and is not, is himself also an eighth, and is of the seven; and he goes to destruction.​

(12) The ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority as kings, with the beast, for one hour.​

(13) These have one mind, and they give their power and authority to the beast.​

(14) These will war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings, and those who are with him are called chosen and faithful.”​

(15) He said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and languages.​

(16) The ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the prostitute, will make her desolate, will strip her naked, will eat her flesh, and will burn her utterly with fire.​

(17) For God has put in their hearts to do what he has in mind, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God should be accomplished.​

(18) The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.”​

So the book, which you think is clear and unambiguous, says that the woman who sits on many waters also sits on the beast and on seven mountains (she must have a large backside). She holds a gold cup that is somehow full of "abominations and the impurities of the sexual immorality of the earth" and she drinks the blood of Christians. The waters are actually people, nations and languages. The seven mountains that the woman sits on are in fact seven men who are kings, five of which are dead, one is currently alive, and the other is to come in the future. The ten horns are also kings of the future who will go to war against Jesus. Oh, and the woman is not actually a woman - she is a city, a city that reigns over kings! And the beast, which is 17 kings, is also a king, one of the seven kings. That is so clear, and obviously the beast is a man!

No actually the woman who sits on the beast is a religious system. Women symbolically always refer to religious systems. That is why Israel when they were in idolatry God called whores. For they were chasing false religion. How you get 17 kings is beyond me.

But the antichrist is a man and is clearly identified as such from the numerous passages that describe and define him!

But just a few names for his:

The man of lawlessness
the king of fierce countenance
prince of the people that shall come
the abomination that makes desolate.

 

[Keiw]

But you are looking only at the external denominations. The people of God are found in all denominations and for the important issues they are in agreement.

Even the first century church was deeply divided. There was the Jewish wing and the Gentile wing and the contention between the two got very heated at times.

Even the Watchtower has had splits in it!

The watchtower is a magazine. All denominations teach different truths on matters--Why? Not having holy spirit is why. The bible assures truth becomes abundant here in these last days( Dan 12:4)--Jesus assured the holy spirit would guide his religion into ALL truth. God only accepts to be worshipped in spirit and TRUTH.( John 4:22-24)-- Unity of thought( ALL of Gods 1 truth) no division( 1 Cor 1:10)--- do you understand english? trinity religions do not obviously.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The watchtower is a magazine. All denominations teach different truths on matters--Why? Not having holy spirit is why. The bible assures truth becomes abundant here in these last days( Dan 12:4)--Jesus assured the holy spirit would guide his religion into ALL truth. God only accepts to be worshipped in spirit and TRUTH.( John 4:22-24)-- Unity of thought( ALL of Gods 1 truth) no division( 1 Cor 1:10)--- do you understand english? trinity religions do not obviously.

And teh JW organization is poor in the truth.

Teh biggest being they deny the physical resurrection of Jesus which makes all JWE's lost and then only teaching 144,000 can be born again when Jesus said whoever is not born again will not even see the kingdom of God. So you are in a quandary!!! the kingdom of God will be on the restored earth and you will not live forever on paradise earth for it is the kingdom of god and you must be born again to even see it!

 

[Keiw]

And teh JW organization is poor in the truth.

Teh biggest being they deny the physical resurrection of Jesus which makes all JWE's lost and then only teaching 144,000 can be born again when Jesus said whoever is not born again will not even see the kingdom of God. So you are in a quandary!!! the kingdom of God will be on the restored earth and you will not live forever on paradise earth for it is the kingdom of god and you must be born again to even see it!

Many things in the NT concern only the little flock.

 

[The Learner]

I trusted the source without investigating it's accuracy.

Greek originals predate the other, so they are more accurate. Also, there are thousands of the greek ones.

The following manuscripts are in the British Archives:

British Library, Add. 14470 – complete text of 22 books of the New Testament, from the 5th/6th century
Rabbula Gospels – a 6th-century illuminated Syriac Gospel Book[16]
Khaboris Codex – a 10th century complete Peshitta New Testament[17]
Codex Phillipps 1388 – a Syriac manuscript on parchment containing text of the four Gospels dated Palaeographically to the 5th/6th centuries[18]
British Library, Add. 12140 – a 6th century manuscript on parchment containing text from the four Gospels[19]
British Library, Add. 14479 – a 534 CE manuscript containing the 14 Pauline Epistles with some lacunae, dated by a colophon[20]
British Library, Add. 14455 – a 6th century heavily damaged manuscript containing parts of the four Gospels[21]
British Library, Add. 14466 – a 10th/11th century manuscript containing fragments of the gospels of Mark and Luke
British Library, Add. 14467 – a 10th century manuscript containing fragments of Matthew and John in Syriac and Arabic
British Library, Add. 14669 – a 6th century manuscript containing fragments of Luke and Mark.[22]
...
Papyrus P98 (P. IFAO inv. 237b [+a]) is a manuscript fragment that contains verses from the first chapter of the book of Revelation. It was copied circa A.D. 100-200, likely in Egypt.9 The manuscript was first published by Guy Wagner in 1971, who dated it to the second century. He did not recognize that it was a biblical text, however, and it wasn’t until 20 years later that Dieter Hagedorn identified it as coming from Rev. 1:13-20. The manuscript is in the collection of L’Institut français d’archéologie orientale (IFAO) in Cairo, Egypt.
...
Papyrus P52
p52_recto
The John Rylands Library Papyrus P52 (recto) contains parts of John 18:31-33. It is the earliest New Testament manuscript discovered to date. Photo Credit: JRUL / Wikimedia Commons / Public Domain
The earliest and most famous Greek New Testament manuscript is the Ryland Papyrus P52, currently on display at the John Rylands University Library in Manchester, UK. It was purchased in 1920 by Bernard Grenfell on the Egyptian antiquities market. However, it wasn’t really “discovered” until 1934 when it was translated by C. H. Roberts. Three of the leading papyrologists in Europe to whom Roberts sent photos of the fragment to dated it from A.D. 100-150, although most scholars today would use a wider date range of the second century in general. P52 comes from a codex (ie. book form, not a scroll) and contains parts of seven lines from the John 18:31–33 on the front, and parts of seven lines from verses 37–38 on the back.

The Earliest New Testament Manuscripts

All of the books of the New Testament were written within a lifetime of the death of Jesus of Nazareth. Not so the so-called “other gospels,” which were pseudepigraphical Gnostic works written 100…

biblearchaeologyreport.com

The following manuscripts are in the British Archives:

British Library, Add. 14470 – complete text of 22 books of the New Testament, from the 5th/6th century
Rabbula Gospels – a 6th-century illuminated Syriac Gospel Book[16]
Khaboris Codex – a 10th century complete Peshitta New Testament[17]
Codex Phillipps 1388 – a Syriac manuscript on parchment containing text of the four Gospels dated Palaeographically to the 5th/6th centuries[18]
British Library, Add. 12140 – a 6th century manuscript on parchment containing text from the four Gospels[19]
British Library, Add. 14479 – a 534 CE manuscript containing the 14 Pauline Epistles with some lacunae, dated by a colophon[20]
British Library, Add. 14455 – a 6th century heavily damaged manuscript containing parts of the four Gospels[21]
British Library, Add. 14466 – a 10th/11th century manuscript containing fragments of the gospels of Mark and Luke
British Library, Add. 14467 – a 10th century manuscript containing fragments of Matthew and John in Syriac and Arabic
British Library, Add. 14669 – a 6th century manuscript containing fragments of Luke and Mark.[22]

 

[The Learner]

Jesus was not immortal until after his resurrection.

 

[The Learner]

too simple, Jesus is God, therefore as the Son of God, he is immortal. As firstborn it means pre-ement, not first created. That is false teaching.

 

[The Learner]

"Immortality is not the same thing as resurrection. Immortality occurs at the resurrection when the believer receives a new body from the Lord.
...
We can sum up the difference between the immortality of God and of humans as follows. Immortality is basic to the nature of God, not humanity. God is immortal, those humans who believe God's promises have immortality. God is immortal in His essence, believers have a derived immortality. God had no beginning or end. Believing humans had a beginning but will have no end."

In What Sense Do Human Beings Have Immortality?

The Scripture teaches that death is not the end of existence. The Bible says that the spirit, or soul, of humans will exist forever. This brings up the issue

www.blueletterbible.org

Jesus is hte Alpha and Omega, the first and last.

 

[The Learner]

1 Timothy 1:16-17
Easy-to-Read Version
16 But I was given mercy so that in me Christ Jesus could show that he has patience without limit. Christ showed his patience with me, the worst of all sinners. He wanted me to be an example for those who would believe in him and have eternal life. 17 Honor and glory to the King who rules forever. He cannot be destroyed and cannot be seen. Honor and glory forever and ever to the only God. Amen.

Context is about Jesus.

 

[The Learner]

Why mention the Watchtower? I don't think Jehovah's Witnesses teach what I have been writing (and I am not, nor have ever been, a JW).


Being immortal doesn't mean that you have no beginning, just that you will have no end. Christians are to become immortal, but all of them/us have a beginning. The Sciptures does not record God giving immortality to anyone, including angels. It only promises that Christians will be made immortal in the first resurrection.

Paul clearly teaches that Christians will be resurrected with a completely different body. We are not restored to our old flesh and bones bodies. 1 Corinthians 15:37-38 (WEB):

(37) That which you sow, you don’t sow the body that will be, but a bare grain, maybe of wheat, or of some other kind.​

(38) But God gives it a body even as it pleased him, and to each seed a body of its own.​

(44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is also a spiritual body.​

Jesus didn't say angels do not die. According to Luke 20:36 Jesus said that those whore are resurrected can not die:

Luke 20:35-36 (WEB):

(35) But those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage.​

(36) For they can’t die any more, for they are like the angels, and are children of God, being children of the resurrection.​

They can't die because they are children of God, like the angels, and at that time all death will have ceased - Luke 20:35 (WEB):

(35) But those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage.​

Rev. 20:5: "The rest of the dead..." an ADDITION?

i've just finished reading c. t. russell's "divine plan of the ages". he makes a comment about revelation 20:5 in a footnote: in this verse, the words, "but the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" are spurious. they are not found in the oldest and most...

www.jehovahs-witness.com

 

[The Learner]

You said that verses 4 & 6 are referring to tribulation saints, and that there is "No mention of the rapture or church saints", so I said there is no mention of the tribulation saints either!

Revelation 20
Easy-to-Read Version
The 1000 Years
20 I saw an angel coming down out of heaven. The angel had the key to the bottomless pit. The angel also held a large chain in his hand. 2 The angel grabbed the dragon, that old snake, also known as the devil or Satan. The angel tied the dragon with the chain for 1000 years. 3 Then the angel threw the dragon into the bottomless pit and closed it. The angel locked it over the dragon. The angel did this so that the dragon could not trick the people of the earth until the 1000 years were ended. After 1000 years the dragon must be made free for a short time.

4 Then I saw some thrones and people sitting on them. These were the ones who had been given the power to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been killed because they were faithful to the truth of Jesus and the message from God. They did not worship the beast or its idol. They did not receive the mark of the beast on their foreheads or on their hands. They came back to life and ruled with Christ for 1000 years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not live again until the 1000 years were ended.)

This is the first resurrection. 6 Great blessings belong to those who share in this first resurrection. They are God’s holy people. The second death has no power over them. They will be priests for God and for Christ. They will rule with him for 1000 years.

The Defeat of Satan
7 When the 1000 years are ended, Satan will be made free from his prison. 8 He will go out to trick the nations in all the earth, the nations known as Gog and Magog. Satan will gather the people for battle. There will be more people than anyone can count, like sand on the seashore.

9 I saw Satan’s army march across the earth and gather around the camp of God’s people and the city that God loves. But fire came down from heaven and destroyed Satan’s army. 10 And he (the one who tricked these people) was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur with the beast and the false prophet. There they would be tortured day and night forever and ever.

People of the World Are Judged
11 Then I saw a large white throne. I saw the one who was sitting on the throne. Earth and sky ran away from him and disappeared. 12 And I saw those who had died, great and small, standing before the throne. Some books were opened. And another book was opened—the book of life. The people were judged by what they had done, which is written in the books.

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. All these people were judged by what they had done. 14 And Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. 15 And anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[keithr]

Yes it does mention the trib saints as they are the only ones who can be beheaded for not worshiping the beast or taking his mark.

You seem to be assuming that the descriptions of the beast, etc. are descriptions of events during the Great tribulation. I don't think that they are. The book of Revelation was a revelation from Jesus showing "his servants the things which must happen soon" (Revelation 1:1). It gives an overview of all of the time from then until now, and continuing into the future. The letters to the seven churches (chapters 1 - 3) are descriptive of seven consecutive periods of time over the last nearly 2,000 years. After that chapters 4 & 5 describe the throne in heaven and Jesus being worthy to take the scroll from God and open it. In chapter 6 Jesus opens the scroll and the great tribulation begins. In chapter 7 the 144,000 Israelites are sealed, and the tribulation continues. Then the tribulation saints are seen up in heaven. In chapter 8 the final (seventh) seal is opened and more of God's wrath is poured out on the earth, continuing to the end of chapter 10. Chapter 11 tells of the two witnesses, and then the final (seventh) trumpet sounds marking the end of the great tribulation and the start of the 1,000 years reign - the 'day of judgement'. Chapters 12, 13 and 17 contain repeated descriptions of the false, anti-Christ kingdom during the Gospel age, leading up to the great tribulation. This is where the symbols of the beasts are used - they're not describing events during the great tribulation.

The tribulation saints "are those who came out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes, and made them white in the Lamb’s blood" (Revelation 7:14). It doesn't say that they "had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God", nor that they "didn’t worship the beast nor his image, and didn’t receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand". It was the Christians during the Gospel age, not the great tribulation, who fall into that category.