A response to the false doctrine of eternal conscious torment (ECT)

[Ronald Nolette]

The real eternal suffering = Deut 30:19--God set before all LIFE or DEATH-both will be everlasting. Those who choose death have thrown away trillions x trillions x trillions etc of never ending years of life in Gods kingdom for 70 -100 years of a sinful existence now. Not a very wise choice--( symbolism = )So as each new day dawns in Gods kingdom, those miss each day, miss each day of Gods love, it NEVER ends--likened to be an eternal suffering.

Wrong Wrong Wrong. If all the lost have to face is never ending non-existence for a life of pleasure in sin- that is not a tragic loss. It is not symbolic that suffering is eternal, it is real.

The everlasting death is an everlasting conscious existence apart from God in torment of fire. Non existent people do not miss anything. They do not miss love nor do they miss torment, they just do not exist. But the lost do exist and suffer.

It is convenient to reinterpret Gods Word by saying literal things are actually symbolic, but it is still altering the Word of God and those who do will be judged.

 

[Keiw]

Wrong Wrong Wrong. If all the lost have to face is never ending non-existence for a life of pleasure in sin- that is not a tragic loss. It is not symbolic that suffering is eternal, it is real.

The everlasting death is an everlasting conscious existence apart from God in torment of fire. Non existent people do not miss anything. They do not miss love nor do they miss torment, they just do not exist. But the lost do exist and suffer.

It is convenient to reinterpret Gods Word by saying literal things are actually symbolic, but it is still altering the Word of God and those who do will be judged.

Jesus said Many have entered the broad and spacious path that leads to destruction.) Fire destroys eternally.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Jesus said Many have entered the broad and spacious path that leads to destruction.) Fire destroys eternally.

Except when fire destroys death and the grave before people are cast into that fire! All lives are now immortal.

 

[St. Joseph]

Except when fire destroys death and the grave before people are cast into that fire! All lives are now immortal.

But scripture says they are cast "into" the lake of fire.
Albeit, it is not a physical fire as you cant burn a spirit with a kitchen match.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

But scripture says they are cast "into" the lake of fire.
Albeit, it is not a physical fire as you cant burn a spirit with a kitchen match.

And when death and teh grave are destroyed before humans are cast into that lake, there is no more death! Jesus defeated death for all mankind, so all are now immortal when resurrected. Spirits do not inhabit teh grave or death and death and teh grave gave up teh bodies that were in them.

Why would god waste time resurrecting ashes and reforming them only to destroy them again? We are stupid enough to waste that kind of time, but I do not see God being redundant.

 

[St. Joseph]

And when death and teh grave are destroyed before humans are cast into that lake, there is no more death! Jesus defeated death for all mankind, so all are now immortal when resurrected. Spirits do not inhabit teh grave or death and death and teh grave gave up teh bodies that were in them.

Why would god waste time resurrecting ashes and reforming them only to destroy them again? We are stupid enough to waste that kind of time, but I do not see God being redundant.

They wont be ashes. Not physical literal fire.
This is the outer darkness they will spend eternity in. Never coming back out

 

[Ronald Nolette]

They wont be ashes. Not physical literal fire.
T

They wont be ashes. Not physical literal fire.
This is the outer darkness they will spend eternity in. Never coming back out

There is outer darkness.

Dead bodies decompose to ashes and dust. They will be reconstituted.

How do you know it is not a literal fire? Have you seen the lake of fire? there is nothing in the construct to tell us it is a symbolic fire.

 

[Keiw]

Except when fire destroys death and the grave before people are cast into that fire! All lives are now immortal.

Your God would be a sadist if your words were true, He would have no justice, but Deut 32:4 says--All his ways are justice--Your God is false, find the true one.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Your God would be a sadist if your words were true, He would have no justice, but Deut 32:4 says--All his ways are justice--Your God is false, find the true one.

Then you do not know the God of the bible, nor what true justice is. He is the true God, and HIs justice is perfect- Just as He gives eternal reward, He gives eternal punishment- that is true justice.

YOu seem to forget that the god of love is also a God of Holiness and Justice and He was not under any compulsion to save a single human. Just as He gave the devil and the angels who sided with him no chance for repentance.

Angels are immportal and they will suffer for eternity. Jesus conquered death for all of humanity so all mankind will be immortal at the final resurrection and the lost will live forever in the lake of fire! That is who the god of the bible is for those who reject Him. Call Him cruel if you wish but I will only respond with what Paul said in romans 9:

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[keithr]

And when death and the grave are destroyed before humans are cast into that lake, there is no more death!

Revelation 20:14-15 (WEB):

(14) Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.​

(15) If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.​

Just because it mentions people being cast into the lake of fire after it mentions that death is destroyed by being thrown (symbolically, because you can't throw death!) into the lake of fire, that does not mean that those those people do not perish. It's not a chronological description of events. Those people are destroyed, they perish, because they were not found written in the book of life. If you are not written in the book of life then you will not have eternal life, and that includes not living on in a fire. It even says that the lake of fire is the second death, so there is no doubt that being "thrown into the lake of fire" means that you will die.

Why would god waste time resurrecting ashes and reforming them only to destroy them again?

It is not a waste of time! He will resurrect people to a long life (a thousand years) of blessing and opportunity to have belief and faith in God and Jesus, and to become perfect, and if they pass a final trial then they will be granted eternal life. Out of the abundance of His love God gives everyone plenty of opportunity to gain eternal life.

2 Peter 3:9 (WEB):

(9) The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.​

The only outcome for all is either eternal life or death:

John 3:16 (WEB):

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.​

John 3:36 (WEB):

(36) One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”​

 

[keithr]

Angels are immportal and they will suffer for eternity.

What makes you think angels are immortal? This passage says only God has immortality, implying that angels are not immortal:

1 Timothy 6:13-16 (WEB):

(13) I command you before God, who gives life to all things, ... ;​

(16) who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and eternal power. Amen.​

Any interpretation of other verses of Scripture must be interpreted in harmony with 1 Timothy 6:16.

Jesus conquered death for all of humanity so all mankind will be immortal at the final resurrection and the lost will live forever in the lake of fire!

Only Christians have the opportunity of becoming immortal as part of a new creation, having the same divine nature that Jesus now has. The rest of mankind have the opportunity for eternal life, but not immortality. There's a difference.

Nobody will live forever in a lake of fire! "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23). So we can have eternal life in Jesus, or death for eternity. We can't have eternal life in fire.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Revelation 20:14-15 (WEB):
(14) Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.(15) If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Just because it mentions people being cast into the lake of fire after it mentions that death is destroyed by being thrown (symbolically, because you can't throw death!) into the lake of fire, that does not mean that those those people do not perish. It's not a chronological description of events. Those people are destroyed, they perish, because they were not found written in the book of life. If you are not written in the book of life then you will not have eternal life, and that includes not living on in a fire. It even says that the lake of fire is the second death, so there is no doubt that being "thrown into the lake of fire" means that you will die.

Well using a paraphrase does not help your cause.

Andhow do you know it is symbolic? I believe it is but what is it symbolic of? Death being destroyed! All symbolisms in the bible have literal events associated with them.

It is not a waste of time! He will resurrect people to a long life (a thousand years) of blessing and opportunity to have belief and faith in God and Jesus, and to become perfect, and if they pass a final trial then they will be granted eternal life. Out of the abundance of His love God gives everyone plenty of opportunity to gain eternal life.

2 Peter 3:9 (WEB):
(9) The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
The only outcome for all is either eternal life or death:

John 3:16 (WEB):
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.John 3:36 (WEB):
(36) One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

Well the only resurrected before the 1000 years are those who refused the mark and beheaded for Jesus.

The rest of the dead are not resurrected until after the 1000 years! Read your bible!

And after the 1000 years, there is no chance for salvation, but judgment!

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Now God don't make no mistakes. and He said teh devil was cast into the lake of fire where the antichrist and false prophet are! Present tense! Not were (cuz they were destroyed and now non-existent) but Are at present!

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

No second chances! As it is written in Hebrews: It is determined for man to die once- then comes their judgment.

 

[Patrick1966]

No second chances

Myth.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

What makes you think angels are immortal? This passage says only God has immortality, implying that angels are not immortal:

1 Timothy 6:13-16 (WEB):
(13) I command you before God, who gives life to all things, ... ;(16) who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and eternal power. Amen.
Any interpretation of other verses of Scripture must be interpreted in harmony with 1 Timothy 6:16.

Well as this requires a deeper word study, let me just tell you this. God alone has inherent immortality. All created sentient beings ((angels and men) have immortality due to being given it by the one who only possesses it as an inherent quality.

In Jude, angels are chained in everlsating darkness. Why the need for everlasting darkness for non immortal beings.)

But:

Luke 20:36

King James Version

​

36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Mans body may die, but His soul and spirit are immortal and in the future every living soul and spirit will be rejoined with their bodies for their everlastin habitation.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Myth.

Bible

 

[Patrick1966]

Bible

Where does it say that Jesus can't or won't save unbelievers in the hereafter?

 

[Keiw]

Then you do not know the God of the bible, nor what true justice is. He is the true God, and HIs justice is perfect- Just as He gives eternal reward, He gives eternal punishment- that is true justice.

YOu seem to forget that the god of love is also a God of Holiness and Justice and He was not under any compulsion to save a single human. Just as He gave the devil and the angels who sided with him no chance for repentance.

Angels are immportal and they will suffer for eternity. Jesus conquered death for all of humanity so all mankind will be immortal at the final resurrection and the lost will live forever in the lake of fire! That is who the god of the bible is for those who reject Him. Call Him cruel if you wish but I will only respond with what Paul said in romans 9:

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

God himself taught everyone true justice= an eye for an eye--So for70-100 years of an unrepented sinful life, God could NOT or would NOT punish one for trillions x trillions x trillions, etc of never ending years of life. There is 0 balance in that scenario--Its not an eye for an eye--its an eye for a gazillion eyes= not the true God.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Where does it say that Jesus can't or won't save unbelievers in the hereafter?

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Luke 16:19-28

King James Version

​

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Now in light of these, show any verses you purport to show their is a second chance after death.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

God himself taught everyone true justice= an eye for an eye--So for70-100 years of an unrepented sinful life, God could NOT or would NOT punish one for trillions x trillions x trillions, etc of never ending years of life. There is 0 balance in that scenario--Its not an eye for an eye--its an eye for a gazillion eyes= not the true God.

Sorry but that is what Scripture teaches without some cult reinterpreting the Word.

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Your confusion lies in the english word "destruction". It does not mean a ceasing of existence or utterly wiping something out of existence, but corruption or ruin. which is exactly what the lake of fire is! A place where immortal beings (angels and humans) are in a constant ste of corruption. Jesus explained this in one of his descriptions of the lake of fire:

Mark 9:43-49

King James Version

​

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

 

[Keiw]

Sorry but that is what Scripture teaches without some cult reinterpreting the Word.

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Your confusion lies in the english word "destruction". It does not mean a ceasing of existence or utterly wiping something out of existence, but corruption or ruin. which is exactly what the lake of fire is! A place where immortal beings (angels and humans) are in a constant ste of corruption. Jesus explained this in one of his descriptions of the lake of fire:

Mark 9:43-49​

​

King James Version​

​

​

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

No worm in existence could survive more than a single hour let alone dieth not in a hot firey place of torment--Proving 100% its symbolic. 6 feet under-the worm dieth not.